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	<title>Comments on: Meddling Priests</title>
	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 04:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Homer Paxton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16467</link>
		<dc:creator>Homer Paxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16467</guid>
		<description>Saint, 
I am dissapointed.

A covenant is a two way street.
to put meat on Percy's article both employer and employee need to act in their neighbour's interest in their behaviour.

to put an example bludging would be unacceptable nor would no allowance for family problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saint,<br />
I am dissapointed.</p>
<p>A covenant is a two way street.<br />
to put meat on Percy&#8217;s article both employer and employee need to act in their neighbour&#8217;s interest in their behaviour.</p>
<p>to put an example bludging would be unacceptable nor would no allowance for family problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16441</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16441</guid>
		<description>saint, yeah, Unions are complex and differentiated beasts.

Incidentally, surveys for several years now have found that Australians no longer think that unions have too much power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>saint, yeah, Unions are complex and differentiated beasts.</p>
<p>Incidentally, surveys for several years now have found that Australians no longer think that unions have too much power.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16435</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16435</guid>
		<description>I'm with Saint. The only worthwhile part of the padre's article was the concise description of the power imbalance inherent in all but a very few employment relationships.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Saint. The only worthwhile part of the padre&#8217;s article was the concise description of the power imbalance inherent in all but a very few employment relationships.</p>
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		<title>By: saint</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16433</link>
		<dc:creator>saint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16433</guid>
		<description>P.S. While I personally cannot stand Aspinall et al. nor the heresy he preaches as the gospel, that does not preclude him or anyone else from making commentary about policy (as to how representative he or others are of Christians or their church is another matter). To fret about what qualifications one has is to fall for the Costello trap. And I don't care whether a church is an employer or not. All Aussie citizens regardless of their religious affiliation or education or social status are called to - have the right to - assess and question government policy, keep the government accountable, make up their own minds - no matter how 'imperfectly' they do so.  And yes, even ministers vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. While I personally cannot stand Aspinall et al. nor the heresy he preaches as the gospel, that does not preclude him or anyone else from making commentary about policy (as to how representative he or others are of Christians or their church is another matter). To fret about what qualifications one has is to fall for the Costello trap. And I don&#8217;t care whether a church is an employer or not. All Aussie citizens regardless of their religious affiliation or education or social status are called to - have the right to - assess and question government policy, keep the government accountable, make up their own minds - no matter how &#8216;imperfectly&#8217; they do so.  And yes, even ministers vote.</p>
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		<title>By: saint</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16432</link>
		<dc:creator>saint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16432</guid>
		<description>Um I didn't get the Percy article. About the only valid point was the difficulty faced by individuals negotiating contracts without the gammut of legal and other support. 

Did not see Denton.  Not surprised to hear the three priests were a joke. That's the ABC's take on Christianity.

A general comment: when I hear people rail about unions I am sometimes wary that they treat them as some monolithic group and usually in terms to conjure up images of thuggery, complete with picthers of  building and construction unionists. However, when I have spoken to friends over the years the picture is much more variegated and different. For example, someone told my ages ago that the old closed shop policy in the banking sector was initiated by employers who wanted to lock in a very benign union and lock out any other unions likely to rock the boat. Someone else pointed out that Australian unions were the most regulated unions in the world. Another mentioned a survey where the average Aussie would think unions have too much power, but when the same person is asked, are you a member of a union and does your union have too much power, invariably the answer was that their own union was powerless. Another said many unions supported equal pay for work of equal value for women in the 70s partly out of fear that women would underut the men in the competition for jobs during a period of high unemployment and inflation. And so on and so on. Now I don't know how much of what I have heard over the years is fair or true but I have gained an impression of a far more complex set of organisations and relationships which does not gel with some of the rhetoric in the public sphere. And which certainly doesn't gel with the way the media seems to report IR issues. Just an observation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um I didn&#8217;t get the Percy article. About the only valid point was the difficulty faced by individuals negotiating contracts without the gammut of legal and other support. </p>
<p>Did not see Denton.  Not surprised to hear the three priests were a joke. That&#8217;s the ABC&#8217;s take on Christianity.</p>
<p>A general comment: when I hear people rail about unions I am sometimes wary that they treat them as some monolithic group and usually in terms to conjure up images of thuggery, complete with picthers of  building and construction unionists. However, when I have spoken to friends over the years the picture is much more variegated and different. For example, someone told my ages ago that the old closed shop policy in the banking sector was initiated by employers who wanted to lock in a very benign union and lock out any other unions likely to rock the boat. Someone else pointed out that Australian unions were the most regulated unions in the world. Another mentioned a survey where the average Aussie would think unions have too much power, but when the same person is asked, are you a member of a union and does your union have too much power, invariably the answer was that their own union was powerless. Another said many unions supported equal pay for work of equal value for women in the 70s partly out of fear that women would underut the men in the competition for jobs during a period of high unemployment and inflation. And so on and so on. Now I don&#8217;t know how much of what I have heard over the years is fair or true but I have gained an impression of a far more complex set of organisations and relationships which does not gel with some of the rhetoric in the public sphere. And which certainly doesn&#8217;t gel with the way the media seems to report IR issues. Just an observation.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16411</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16411</guid>
		<description>It's been edited! How odd! I cut and pasted it from the site last night.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been edited! How odd! I cut and pasted it from the site last night.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16394</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16394</guid>
		<description>The blurb at Online Opinion refers to a theology degree, but not to his B Comm (Hons).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The blurb at Online Opinion refers to a theology degree, but not to his B Comm (Hons).</p>
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		<title>By: Homer Paxton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16383</link>
		<dc:creator>Homer Paxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16383</guid>
		<description>A covenant in this instance would be simialr to ones we see in the bible between god and Israel where Israel breaks them in every instance!

There is a cost but also a benefit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A covenant in this instance would be simialr to ones we see in the bible between god and Israel where Israel breaks them in every instance!</p>
<p>There is a cost but also a benefit.</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Xavier Holden</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16379</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Xavier Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16379</guid>
		<description>CL and Amanda thanks for the descriptions of the Krisofferson interview. Not surprised that Laws did it better. Despite the fact that I don't like him or his singing he does at least clearly understand country music, Denton probably sneers at it and says "yeeha" thinking its funny.

CL - loved your descriptions of the 3 clergy. I got the Uniting and Anglican guys wrong. I'm not all that impressed by McGuire. CL you are rapidly turning into my favourite grumpy old skool catholic. I'll be asking for an autographed pic from you soon. In the form of a "Holy Card". Keep up the good work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CL and Amanda thanks for the descriptions of the Krisofferson interview. Not surprised that Laws did it better. Despite the fact that I don&#8217;t like him or his singing he does at least clearly understand country music, Denton probably sneers at it and says &#8220;yeeha&#8221; thinking its funny.</p>
<p>CL - loved your descriptions of the 3 clergy. I got the Uniting and Anglican guys wrong. I&#8217;m not all that impressed by McGuire. CL you are rapidly turning into my favourite grumpy old skool catholic. I&#8217;ll be asking for an autographed pic from you soon. In the form of a &#8220;Holy Card&#8221;. Keep up the good work.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16367</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16367</guid>
		<description>A covenant - implying a profound mutuality of interest - could be turned around to justify wage cuts, working overtime and otherwise pitching in for the good of the enterprise. Where money is concerned, only hard-headed laws work in IR. 

I think the government is being foolish on this agenda. Unions aren't going away and these reforms are probably one roll-back Big Kimbo Sysyphus will make good on. In other words, it's not reform for the ages; its short-term ideological bollocks. That's the flipside of my union criticisms above. As I implied, the immobilism and corporatist lethargy of unions over the past 20 years brought all this on. 

Nevertheless, organising labour is a fundamental human right. At war just now with incivility writ very large and dangerous, we should be celebrating and strengthening our traditions, not vitiating them for the sake of Bert Kelly's ghost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A covenant - implying a profound mutuality of interest - could be turned around to justify wage cuts, working overtime and otherwise pitching in for the good of the enterprise. Where money is concerned, only hard-headed laws work in IR. </p>
<p>I think the government is being foolish on this agenda. Unions aren&#8217;t going away and these reforms are probably one roll-back Big Kimbo Sysyphus will make good on. In other words, it&#8217;s not reform for the ages; its short-term ideological bollocks. That&#8217;s the flipside of my union criticisms above. As I implied, the immobilism and corporatist lethargy of unions over the past 20 years brought all this on. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, organising labour is a fundamental human right. At war just now with incivility writ very large and dangerous, we should be celebrating and strengthening our traditions, not vitiating them for the sake of Bert Kelly&#8217;s ghost.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16365</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16365</guid>
		<description>This pagan had her say (and thanks for fixing the italics).   "Relationship" is better, but I still find his idealisation of the purpose/experience of work quite unnerving.  If you get rid of his religous premisses there isn;t much to the article.

C.L, a beautiful description of that Kris moment, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This pagan had her say (and thanks for fixing the italics).   &#8220;Relationship&#8221; is better, but I still find his idealisation of the purpose/experience of work quite unnerving.  If you get rid of his religous premisses there isn;t much to the article.</p>
<p>C.L, a beautiful description of that Kris moment, thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16358</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16358</guid>
		<description>Homer, "covenant" in this sense doesn't necessarily have to be read in the religious sense. You could agree with Percy that an employment &lt;b&gt;relationship&lt;/b&gt; should be more than a mere contract without taking on board his religious premisses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Homer, &#8220;covenant&#8221; in this sense doesn&#8217;t necessarily have to be read in the religious sense. You could agree with Percy that an employment <b>relationship</b> should be more than a mere contract without taking on board his religious premisses.</p>
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		<title>By: Homer Paxton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16356</link>
		<dc:creator>Homer Paxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16356</guid>
		<description>I already know that Mark what about other people particulary those pagans and their thoughts on a covenat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I already know that Mark what about other people particulary those pagans and their thoughts on a covenat.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16349</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16349</guid>
		<description>I've already said that I largely agree with him in the post, Homer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve already said that I largely agree with him in the post, Homer.</p>
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		<title>By: Homer Paxton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16347</link>
		<dc:creator>Homer Paxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16347</guid>
		<description>I am interested in what people think about Percy's article.
Any takers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am interested in what people think about Percy&#8217;s article.<br />
Any takers?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16340</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16340</guid>
		<description>This is one of the many reasons why I am so not a Denton fan, C.L.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is one of the many reasons why I am so not a Denton fan, C.L.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16333</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16333</guid>
		<description>erratum: "sildenly [silently] solemn..."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>erratum: &#8220;sildenly [silently] solemn&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16329</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16329</guid>
		<description>Nabs is right about that Kristofferson interview. Great songwriter and interesting personality. A lot brainier than dear little Andrew. What a shemozzle some sections of his interview became. When Kris started crying, it was to do with the two children he adopted after their mother had been shot in front of their eyes in San Salvador. It was a touching and - for a while - sildenly solemn moment: man, nearly 70, contemplates two people he loves dearly and recollects the tragedy the three of them had perforce to overcome over long, hard years. 

Denton: "The two boys were [something]..."
Kris: "...[*sniff*] two &lt;i&gt;girls&lt;/i&gt;..."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nabs is right about that Kristofferson interview. Great songwriter and interesting personality. A lot brainier than dear little Andrew. What a shemozzle some sections of his interview became. When Kris started crying, it was to do with the two children he adopted after their mother had been shot in front of their eyes in San Salvador. It was a touching and - for a while - sildenly solemn moment: man, nearly 70, contemplates two people he loves dearly and recollects the tragedy the three of them had perforce to overcome over long, hard years. </p>
<p>Denton: &#8220;The two boys were [something]&#8230;&#8221;<br />
Kris: &#8220;&#8230;[*sniff*] two <i>girls</i>&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16309</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16309</guid>
		<description>It didn't make the best tv, C.L. However, I doubt that the result would have been different in a secret ballot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It didn&#8217;t make the best tv, C.L. However, I doubt that the result would have been different in a secret ballot.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16306</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/26/meddling-priests/#comment-16306</guid>
		<description>Why not? My point is that democratic transparency was always the best way not only for unions to counter suggestions of recklessness but also to move with the times. Instead, a few weeks ago we saw large groups of men hoisting their arms up in unison during 'votes' on IR action against the government. Aspirationals watching that these days think: what a bunch of losers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not? My point is that democratic transparency was always the best way not only for unions to counter suggestions of recklessness but also to move with the times. Instead, a few weeks ago we saw large groups of men hoisting their arms up in unison during &#8216;votes&#8217; on IR action against the government. Aspirationals watching that these days think: what a bunch of losers.</p>
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