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	<title>Comments on: Pope Benedict and Israel</title>
	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: Homer Paxton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17696</link>
		<dc:creator>Homer Paxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17696</guid>
		<description>would that mean talking about the papal position or would it be double deutsch?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>would that mean talking about the papal position or would it be double deutsch?</p>
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		<title>By: wbb</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17692</link>
		<dc:creator>wbb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17692</guid>
		<description>The pope needs a blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The pope needs a blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17611</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17611</guid>
		<description>It's probably worth calming CL's slightly excitable allegations about the tendencies of 'bookish Germans' and outdoorsman. There is no difference between Benedict's and John-Paul's attitudes to the Palestinain question.

&lt;a href='http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&#38;cid=1122776414356' rel="nofollow"&gt;The big picture behind the Vatican spat &lt;/a&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;When the Foreign Ministry went very public last week with its protest to the Vatican over Pope Benedict XVI's failure to condemn the July 12 Netanya suicide bombing, it clearly wanted to get the Vatican to stand up and take notice.

Otherwise, the ministry could have done what it had done numerous times in the past when John Paul II also did not condemn terrorism in Israel: protest quietly and through more conventional diplomatic channels --- and not alert the press.

But unlike the previous low-profile attempts, this time the ministry got its wish and the Vatican paid attention. And then some.

Senior Foreign Ministry official Nimrod Barkan's comment to The Jerusalem Post last Monday, charging that the late Pope John Paul II had not made it a practice of condemning terrorism in Israel, led to an uncharacteristically strident response by the Vatican on Thursday in which it told Israel to butt out of papal statements. The Vatican explained it couldn't condemn all attacks on Israel, because these attacks were often followed by unlawful Israeli actions.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s probably worth calming CL&#8217;s slightly excitable allegations about the tendencies of &#8216;bookish Germans&#8217; and outdoorsman. There is no difference between Benedict&#8217;s and John-Paul&#8217;s attitudes to the Palestinain question.</p>
<p><a href='http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&amp;cid=1122776414356' rel="nofollow">The big picture behind the Vatican spat </a></p>
<blockquote><p>When the Foreign Ministry went very public last week with its protest to the Vatican over Pope Benedict XVI&#8217;s failure to condemn the July 12 Netanya suicide bombing, it clearly wanted to get the Vatican to stand up and take notice.</p>
<p>Otherwise, the ministry could have done what it had done numerous times in the past when John Paul II also did not condemn terrorism in Israel: protest quietly and through more conventional diplomatic channels &#8212; and not alert the press.</p>
<p>But unlike the previous low-profile attempts, this time the ministry got its wish and the Vatican paid attention. And then some.</p>
<p>Senior Foreign Ministry official Nimrod Barkan&#8217;s comment to The Jerusalem Post last Monday, charging that the late Pope John Paul II had not made it a practice of condemning terrorism in Israel, led to an uncharacteristically strident response by the Vatican on Thursday in which it told Israel to butt out of papal statements. The Vatican explained it couldn&#8217;t condemn all attacks on Israel, because these attacks were often followed by unlawful Israeli actions.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: News from Around the World</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17475</link>
		<dc:creator>News from Around the World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17475</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Pope Benedict and Israel&lt;/strong&gt;

The only thing that would make this better is if it stopped raining here:...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Pope Benedict and Israel</strong></p>
<p>The only thing that would make this better is if it stopped raining here:&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17427</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17427</guid>
		<description>Nabs, I've been chatting with the guy upstairs and he's promised another couple of stone slates from the mountain-top to clear everything up directly. Delivery date next Tuesday. Wanted: suitable prophet, preferably wild-eyed with bushy beard, must have own staff. 

(Or maybe I haven't taken my pills today...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nabs, I&#8217;ve been chatting with the guy upstairs and he&#8217;s promised another couple of stone slates from the mountain-top to clear everything up directly. Delivery date next Tuesday. Wanted: suitable prophet, preferably wild-eyed with bushy beard, must have own staff. </p>
<p>(Or maybe I haven&#8217;t taken my pills today&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17407</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17407</guid>
		<description>Has anyone got God, Yahweh or Allah's direct input on this issue? I'm talking like signed and FOI enabled memos here. Not any of this "I read it a book" crap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone got God, Yahweh or Allah&#8217;s direct input on this issue? I&#8217;m talking like signed and FOI enabled memos here. Not any of this &#8220;I read it a book&#8221; crap.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17405</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17405</guid>
		<description>Here's why Israel &lt;a href="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=16882_Death_Cult_Summer_Camps&#38;only" rel="nofollow"&gt;doesn't exactly trust&lt;/a&gt; Palestinian bona fides. An outdoorsman like Papa Wojtyla would have been outraged. I'm not sure about our bookish German.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s why Israel <a href="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=16882_Death_Cult_Summer_Camps&amp;only" rel="nofollow">doesn&#8217;t exactly trust</a> Palestinian bona fides. An outdoorsman like Papa Wojtyla would have been outraged. I&#8217;m not sure about our bookish German.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17347</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17347</guid>
		<description>The position taken by the Vatican is an important one - the diplomatic stance of the Vatican in favour of human rights and the norms of international law is powerful because it's able to adopt this stance (as a sovereign entity) without being accused of the sort of power politics that all states must incorporate into their diplomacy, however well-intentioned they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The position taken by the Vatican is an important one - the diplomatic stance of the Vatican in favour of human rights and the norms of international law is powerful because it&#8217;s able to adopt this stance (as a sovereign entity) without being accused of the sort of power politics that all states must incorporate into their diplomacy, however well-intentioned they are.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17328</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17328</guid>
		<description>Yes, Alan, and Benedict is widely expected to put a broom through the Curia soon. Apparently one of his principal concerns is the Secretariat of State, from what one reads. Another is said to be conflicting messages coming from different officials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Alan, and Benedict is widely expected to put a broom through the Curia soon. Apparently one of his principal concerns is the Secretariat of State, from what one reads. Another is said to be conflicting messages coming from different officials.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17327</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17327</guid>
		<description>In reality, it may just have been an oversight. Several statements by the curia have been 'corrected' or 'amplified' since Benedict became pope and Sodano, the Cardinal Secretary of State, is widely expected to move on to other duties in the near future. Equally, this is Israel's first chance to try it on with a new pope and not one they're going to pass up. Israel and the Vatican have a long history of diplomatic tension and crossfire because they have fundamentally different views on the Palestinian question. The tensions were there under John-Paul II, but tended to get ignored because of his reputation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reality, it may just have been an oversight. Several statements by the curia have been &#8216;corrected&#8217; or &#8216;amplified&#8217; since Benedict became pope and Sodano, the Cardinal Secretary of State, is widely expected to move on to other duties in the near future. Equally, this is Israel&#8217;s first chance to try it on with a new pope and not one they&#8217;re going to pass up. Israel and the Vatican have a long history of diplomatic tension and crossfire because they have fundamentally different views on the Palestinian question. The tensions were there under John-Paul II, but tended to get ignored because of his reputation.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17309</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17309</guid>
		<description>I'm always careful, C.L., to distinguish between the Israeli state and the Israeli people. As I've commented before, a majority would like peace with the Palestinian people and a growing number would be perfectly happy with a secular state encompassing the whole territory - even should Palestinians become a majority.

The Israeli state has long played on the terrible memory of the Holocaust to disarm criticism. Since s11, it's played on that terrible memory to justify its own illegal and violent acts by arguing that the violence directed at it - and against Israeli citizens - is dehistoricised and decontextualised disdain for "values" - rather than a historical struggle which has been re-ignited by the Sharon government's scorn for the peace process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m always careful, C.L., to distinguish between the Israeli state and the Israeli people. As I&#8217;ve commented before, a majority would like peace with the Palestinian people and a growing number would be perfectly happy with a secular state encompassing the whole territory - even should Palestinians become a majority.</p>
<p>The Israeli state has long played on the terrible memory of the Holocaust to disarm criticism. Since s11, it&#8217;s played on that terrible memory to justify its own illegal and violent acts by arguing that the violence directed at it - and against Israeli citizens - is dehistoricised and decontextualised disdain for &#8220;values&#8221; - rather than a historical struggle which has been re-ignited by the Sharon government&#8217;s scorn for the peace process.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17307</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17307</guid>
		<description>Should have read:

Just assumed you wouldn't lightly reject a link between manifestations of Israeli sensitivity and the recent murder of 6,000,000 of that people's forebears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should have read:</p>
<p>Just assumed you wouldn&#8217;t lightly reject a link between manifestations of Israeli sensitivity and the recent murder of 6,000,000 of that people&#8217;s forebears.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17305</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17305</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I‚Äôm not sure why you thought I would be.&lt;/i&gt;

Just assumed you wouldn't lightly link all manifestations of Israeli sensitivity to the recent murder of 6,000,000 of that people's forebears.

Silly me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I‚Äôm not sure why you thought I would be.</i></p>
<p>Just assumed you wouldn&#8217;t lightly link all manifestations of Israeli sensitivity to the recent murder of 6,000,000 of that people&#8217;s forebears.</p>
<p>Silly me.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Honnor</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17303</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Honnor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17303</guid>
		<description>As an addendum: the current Pope is a German, old enough to have been part of the Third Reich's social engineering machinery, no matter how directed that participation might have been. At the very least, this might indicate that a certain heightened sensitivity about Israeli feelings might have been judicious..... 

In this circumstance, to denounce terrorism in specific geographic locales, omitting Israel, is simply stupid. To later claim that one's statement had nothing to do with specific geographic locale, is doubly so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an addendum: the current Pope is a German, old enough to have been part of the Third Reich&#8217;s social engineering machinery, no matter how directed that participation might have been. At the very least, this might indicate that a certain heightened sensitivity about Israeli feelings might have been judicious&#8230;.. </p>
<p>In this circumstance, to denounce terrorism in specific geographic locales, omitting Israel, is simply stupid. To later claim that one&#8217;s statement had nothing to do with specific geographic locale, is doubly so.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17301</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:34:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17301</guid>
		<description>C.L., I'm not at all reluctant to make the statement in the post which implies that the Israeli government should not have "any special dispensation from the ordinary slings and arrows of political criticism and commentary". I'm not sure why you thought I would be.

Geoff, I don't know, you could be right. Or it might be a habit of thought inculcated by Vatican policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C.L., I&#8217;m not at all reluctant to make the statement in the post which implies that the Israeli government should not have &#8220;any special dispensation from the ordinary slings and arrows of political criticism and commentary&#8221;. I&#8217;m not sure why you thought I would be.</p>
<p>Geoff, I don&#8217;t know, you could be right. Or it might be a habit of thought inculcated by Vatican policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Honnor</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17299</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Honnor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17299</guid>
		<description>"Geoff, I don‚Äôt think it was an oversight. The Vatican - no matter what C.L. thinks (and he should read the texts of what JP2 had to say on it) - has always condemned Israeli state violence and supported a Palestinian state. And so they should."

Occam's Razor, Mark. I seriously doubt that the Vatican deliberately set out to piss the Israelis off and if I'm right, there's no other explanation for what has unfolded other than a fuck up. 

Support for a Palestinian homeland would not have been compromised by adding the Netanya bombing on to the country-specific list of terrorist bombings - the Palestinian Authority condemned it; why would the Vatican not do so?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Geoff, I don‚Äôt think it was an oversight. The Vatican - no matter what C.L. thinks (and he should read the texts of what JP2 had to say on it) - has always condemned Israeli state violence and supported a Palestinian state. And so they should.&#8221;</p>
<p>Occam&#8217;s Razor, Mark. I seriously doubt that the Vatican deliberately set out to piss the Israelis off and if I&#8217;m right, there&#8217;s no other explanation for what has unfolded other than a fuck up. </p>
<p>Support for a Palestinian homeland would not have been compromised by adding the Netanya bombing on to the country-specific list of terrorist bombings - the Palestinian Authority condemned it; why would the Vatican not do so?</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17298</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17298</guid>
		<description>I'm familiar with the Holy See's history on Palestinian independence, which I support by the way - if and when the PA &#38; Co cease being a dangerous rabble. And, for the record, I applaud your bold willingness to speak of Israel's "long history of disarming any criticism by illegitimately assimilating it to inaction or complicity with regard to The Holocaust." That is a very forthright and a very true statement, however reluctant you probably were to make it. I too have criticised Israel and do not acknowledge it has any special dispensation from the ordinary slings and arrows of political criticism and commentary. 

As usual, I think Geoff has gone to the real nub of the issue presented here, however, by his reference to nuance. I think the Vatican has tried to be a little too cute and has been caught out. For my part, the balance of sympathy and the balance of understanding vis-a-vis its rigorous self-defence (including offensive self-defence) are still in Israel's favour. I also suspect that Iran's policy represents the real politics of sentiment throughout much of the Middle East, however much other nations there have pragmatically accepted the very different orientation we call realpolitic.

I think this was a bad error of judgement, loosely founded on the pro-statist policy of the Vatican but forged in politically correct, media-savvy expediency. The obvious solution would have been to add both Israel and Palestine to the list of places where terrorist organisations have lately caused death, mayhem and discord - as, in the latter location, civil strife indubitably has. The Holy See can rarely take sides in secular affairs. That is a strength in its diplomatic modus operandi. It is a distinct weakness, however, where - as I claim - the balance of moral sympathy is self-evidently to be apportioned to one side. 

Yes, I do believe the upshot is the Vatican has given moral impetus and gravitas to the cause of non-state actors taking terrorist action against Israel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m familiar with the Holy See&#8217;s history on Palestinian independence, which I support by the way - if and when the PA &amp; Co cease being a dangerous rabble. And, for the record, I applaud your bold willingness to speak of Israel&#8217;s &#8220;long history of disarming any criticism by illegitimately assimilating it to inaction or complicity with regard to The Holocaust.&#8221; That is a very forthright and a very true statement, however reluctant you probably were to make it. I too have criticised Israel and do not acknowledge it has any special dispensation from the ordinary slings and arrows of political criticism and commentary. </p>
<p>As usual, I think Geoff has gone to the real nub of the issue presented here, however, by his reference to nuance. I think the Vatican has tried to be a little too cute and has been caught out. For my part, the balance of sympathy and the balance of understanding vis-a-vis its rigorous self-defence (including offensive self-defence) are still in Israel&#8217;s favour. I also suspect that Iran&#8217;s policy represents the real politics of sentiment throughout much of the Middle East, however much other nations there have pragmatically accepted the very different orientation we call realpolitic.</p>
<p>I think this was a bad error of judgement, loosely founded on the pro-statist policy of the Vatican but forged in politically correct, media-savvy expediency. The obvious solution would have been to add both Israel and Palestine to the list of places where terrorist organisations have lately caused death, mayhem and discord - as, in the latter location, civil strife indubitably has. The Holy See can rarely take sides in secular affairs. That is a strength in its diplomatic modus operandi. It is a distinct weakness, however, where - as I claim - the balance of moral sympathy is self-evidently to be apportioned to one side. </p>
<p>Yes, I do believe the upshot is the Vatican has given moral impetus and gravitas to the cause of non-state actors taking terrorist action against Israel.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17296</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:22:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17296</guid>
		<description>C.L., as I'm suggesting - this is not some sort of departure.

The Vatican did not recognise the State of Israel until 1993.

Pope Paul VI explained why in 1975:

&lt;blockquote&gt;In 1975 Pope Paul VI stated, "we are conscious of the still very recent tragedies which led the Jewish people to search for safe protection in a state of its own, sovereign and independent," but for this very reason "we would like to ask the sons of this people to recognize the rights and legitimate aspirations of another people who have also suffered for a long time, the Palestinian people." Recognition of the state of Israel was withheld by the Vatican in part because it saw the legitimacy of the state of Israel as resting on the 1946 U.N. partition plan that also granted to the Palestinians a state of their own on the remaining territory of historic Palestine. The Vatican declined to recognize the state of Israel until a Palestinian state was also recognized.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As to John Paul II's views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

&lt;blockquote&gt;During the pope's visit to Bethlehem March 22, 2000, Pope John Paul II responded to Yasir Arafat's greetings by declaring his support for Palestinian human and national rights. The Palestinians are said to have a "natural right to a homeland." The pope reiterated the Vatican's position that no peace in the area would be possible without "stable guarantees" for the rights of all peoples involved, based on U.N. resolutions. The pope deplored the sufferings of the Palestinian people, rooted in the denial of economic and cultural development, deprived of a "home of their own, their proper place in society and the possibility of a normal working life." From the Vatican's perspective, it is clear that "peace" in the area is not simply a matter of stopping exchange of violence on both sides, but, more fundamentally, establishing for Palestinians a just and viable basis for daily life in a homeland of their own.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The article from which I'm &lt;a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_35_37/ai_76997394" rel="nofollow"&gt;quoting&lt;/a&gt; has more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C.L., as I&#8217;m suggesting - this is not some sort of departure.</p>
<p>The Vatican did not recognise the State of Israel until 1993.</p>
<p>Pope Paul VI explained why in 1975:</p>
<blockquote><p>In 1975 Pope Paul VI stated, &#8220;we are conscious of the still very recent tragedies which led the Jewish people to search for safe protection in a state of its own, sovereign and independent,&#8221; but for this very reason &#8220;we would like to ask the sons of this people to recognize the rights and legitimate aspirations of another people who have also suffered for a long time, the Palestinian people.&#8221; Recognition of the state of Israel was withheld by the Vatican in part because it saw the legitimacy of the state of Israel as resting on the 1946 U.N. partition plan that also granted to the Palestinians a state of their own on the remaining territory of historic Palestine. The Vatican declined to recognize the state of Israel until a Palestinian state was also recognized.</p></blockquote>
<p>As to John Paul II&#8217;s views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:</p>
<blockquote><p>During the pope&#8217;s visit to Bethlehem March 22, 2000, Pope John Paul II responded to Yasir Arafat&#8217;s greetings by declaring his support for Palestinian human and national rights. The Palestinians are said to have a &#8220;natural right to a homeland.&#8221; The pope reiterated the Vatican&#8217;s position that no peace in the area would be possible without &#8220;stable guarantees&#8221; for the rights of all peoples involved, based on U.N. resolutions. The pope deplored the sufferings of the Palestinian people, rooted in the denial of economic and cultural development, deprived of a &#8220;home of their own, their proper place in society and the possibility of a normal working life.&#8221; From the Vatican&#8217;s perspective, it is clear that &#8220;peace&#8221; in the area is not simply a matter of stopping exchange of violence on both sides, but, more fundamentally, establishing for Palestinians a just and viable basis for daily life in a homeland of their own.</p></blockquote>
<p>The article from which I&#8217;m <a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_35_37/ai_76997394" rel="nofollow">quoting</a> has more.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17294</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17294</guid>
		<description>Yes Fyodor, I'll try harder to be teh intellect. Chasing you off to Google fulfills my didactic doctoral duty for the day - which is a start.

Quite so Geoff. I think the overwrought Vatican response indicates they didn't like being called out on this. At. all.

First, a communique is issued stating Israel is explicitly not mentioned in such circumstances; then Dr Navarro-Valls says Israel was left off a generalised list for no particular reason. In Washington or Canberra, that's called 'spin.' Or 'lying' everywhere else.

Not good. 

And yes, Mark, I regard as shocking a statement from the Holy See arguing Israel is somehow not worthy of being considered a victim of terrorism. This is he stupidest thing the Vatican has done in tense geopolitical circumstances since Roncalli met Kruschev's son-in-law as a demonstration of his doomed 'Ostpolitick.' That didn't go down well in the Gulag Archipelago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Fyodor, I&#8217;ll try harder to be teh intellect. Chasing you off to Google fulfills my didactic doctoral duty for the day - which is a start.</p>
<p>Quite so Geoff. I think the overwrought Vatican response indicates they didn&#8217;t like being called out on this. At. all.</p>
<p>First, a communique is issued stating Israel is explicitly not mentioned in such circumstances; then Dr Navarro-Valls says Israel was left off a generalised list for no particular reason. In Washington or Canberra, that&#8217;s called &#8217;spin.&#8217; Or &#8216;lying&#8217; everywhere else.</p>
<p>Not good. </p>
<p>And yes, Mark, I regard as shocking a statement from the Holy See arguing Israel is somehow not worthy of being considered a victim of terrorism. This is he stupidest thing the Vatican has done in tense geopolitical circumstances since Roncalli met Kruschev&#8217;s son-in-law as a demonstration of his doomed &#8216;Ostpolitick.&#8217; That didn&#8217;t go down well in the Gulag Archipelago.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17290</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/31/pope-benedict-and-israel/#comment-17290</guid>
		<description>Geoff, I don't think it was an oversight. The Vatican - no matter what C.L. thinks (and he should read the texts of what JP2 had to say on it) - has always condemned Israeli state violence and supported a Palestinian state. And so they should.

Individual non-judicial assassinations, collective punishment (including bulldozing the houses of the families of suicide bombers), mortar and tank attacks and bombings of refugee camps and Palestinian government buildings - all these actions by the Israeli state deserve condemnation in the strongest terms and cannot be justified as legitimate self-defence because they are illegal and/or kill and maim civilians who are not responsible for the attacks.

Of course, attacks against innocent Israeli citizens are equally deserving of the strongest condemnation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff, I don&#8217;t think it was an oversight. The Vatican - no matter what C.L. thinks (and he should read the texts of what JP2 had to say on it) - has always condemned Israeli state violence and supported a Palestinian state. And so they should.</p>
<p>Individual non-judicial assassinations, collective punishment (including bulldozing the houses of the families of suicide bombers), mortar and tank attacks and bombings of refugee camps and Palestinian government buildings - all these actions by the Israeli state deserve condemnation in the strongest terms and cannot be justified as legitimate self-defence because they are illegal and/or kill and maim civilians who are not responsible for the attacks.</p>
<p>Of course, attacks against innocent Israeli citizens are equally deserving of the strongest condemnation.</p>
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