The alleged Education Minister Brendan Nelson becomes the first Howard government minister to to give qualified support to Intelligent Design:
Dr Nelson said he had met the proponents of intelligent design, in addition to watching a DVD on the subject.
“Do I think it should be a replacement for teaching the origins of mankind in a scientific sense? I most certainly don’t think that it should be,” he told the National Press Club in Canberra.
“In fact I would be quite concerned if it were to replace it.
“Do I think that parents in schools should have the opportunity if they wish to for students also to be exposed to this and be taught about it? Yes. I think that’s fine.”
No, Mr Nelson it is not fine. As the supposed Education Minister, after giving a speech at the National Press Club launching the Australian Science Festival this is ludicrous. In what classes would students be exposed to the intellectual travesty that is Intelligent Design? It surely can’t be the science class as it is not science. And given the protestations that ID is not religious, to have it as part of a class on religious studies would mean that the charade is up.
The topic of Nelson’s speech to the Nation Press Club was “…the importance of science and education in shaping Australia’s social and economic future.” Giving even qualified support to ID shows that Nelson cares little for science or education.
Many government schools teach lies such as the “stolen generation” as fact.
Yet the Left doesn’t complain about such lies, because it suits their politics to propagate such myths.
So I can’t really get very excited over issues like “intelligent design” being taught as an alternative. Not when there is so much fraudulent political indoctrination already being deliberately imposed through the education system.
I’m in agreement with Brendan here. But only if it’s taught in classes called something like “comparative mythologies” alongside stuff about rainbow serpents and elephants on the back of giant turtles.
And EP, even though we had that hot tub moment a while ago, I do have to ask if it’s ever possible for you address the subject under discussion without flogging your own foaming hobbyhorses down through the straight.
And - “So I can‚Äôt really get very excited over issues like “intelligent design” being taught as an alternative.”
WTF! You really think science, one of the greatest things humans have ever invented, is not worth defending against the encroachments of Bronze Age desert nomad superstitions?
Brendan’s haircut disproves any notion that he has been intelligently designed. Just sayin…
In essence, what is ID?
Creationism using Star Trek jargon.
“Creationism using Star Trek jargon.”
I’m nominating Graham for comment of the year.
Five little words that just nail the hide to the wall.
What puzzles me is how something so ludicrous causes such conspicuous indignation amongst liberals. Many of the same people in the United States (and here) have difficulty accepting a viable life-form in uetero is actually a living being. Now that really is backwoods stuff.
The Vatican is not regarded as an enemy of evolution by the scientific community but in various documents and pronouncements, it rejects the idea that the evolution of everything from the Big Bang onwards is a fully explained done-deal, with no input necessary from people of either faith or philosophical conjecture. Scientists are no better than hick creationists if they claim to know - or have the capacity to ever know - all there is to know. They simply don’t.
Maybe in the ecosystem of contemporary learning ID has emerged to teach scientists some humility;)
Evolution was God’s modus operandi - that’s what I believe and that, essentially, is what the Catholic Church believes. We shouldn’t place too much authority in the hands of scientists to oversee education on life and the worthwhile contemplations of it. Plato taught ideas companionable with so-called intelligent design, as did Aquinas. Several of their ideas and outlooks have not been debunked, nor can they be, and are well worth learning. Scientists don’t own the narrative of creation and the truth is they know comparatively few of the details.
C.L., on this, you should read this.
The Catholic Church is pro-science on the whole.
I return to what I said on an earlier thread about the pointlessness from a faith perspective of seeing God as a designer, and the philosophical emptiness of such a perspective.
I suggest you read Blaise Pascal on the God of the Philosophers vs. the God of the Theologians.
Pascal argued that it demeaned God to invoke the Divinity as a first mover or prime cause. He was right. And that’s a big concession from someone with links to the Jesuits. If you know your 16th/17th century theological stoushes
I thought it was supposed to take five years for bad American cultural ideas to make their way across the pond. Things must be getting faster these days.
Nelson is just playing to the Hillsong type crowd. It doesn’t mean anything. ID will get taught in various transcendentalist schools - just the latest flavor of the creationist story. What’s new is that the US admin which is run by religious zealots has put this idea onto the front page. It’s a flash in the pan. The world will return to a measure of sanity in 2008. But yes it’s striking how closely this government apes the Bush regime on just about every little thing.
This is the DVD he watched.
Too.annoyed.can’t.speak.
Nice work, Amanda.
So ID and evolution are compatible? Over to you, Homer Paxton.
I say we let any theory be taught in schools. Scientology, alien abduction, the illuminati, holocaust denial. Why not? Who cares about scientific evidence? If every theory is as valid as every other, then why the hell not?
You and I know the truth, Kate. We know about the noodly appendages. And we won’t stop until they’re on the syllabus in *every* school.
Indeed, Liam. In fact, I’m currently preparing a DVD detailing the truth about the FSM to deliver to Dr. Nelson.
“Plato taught ideas companionable with so-called intelligent design, as did Aquinas. Several of their ideas and outlooks have not been debunked, nor can they be …”
I have some vague recollection that a few of my philosophy lecturers and tutors tended to be pretty disparaging of people who argue from irrefutable claims. I suppose if you’re Plato or Aquinas you can get away with it.
I’ll second Nabs nomination. That did make me chuckle this morning.
Thanks for the link Amanda. Be interested to know who Nelson did meet with. The ID cronies are very quiet compared to their American counterparts.
There had been some recent argy bargy within the Catholic Church re Cardinal Schonborn’s comments.
CL, scientists don’t claim to know that all that is to know. Science is about discovery not dogma. Most scientists I have come across are quite humble in regards to what they do know reasonably well (which is quite an achievement in itself) and what they don’t know and the wondorous possibilities still to be explored.
Looks like it will be a good weekend for that post on science and religion I have been working on.
If only certain Victorian Senate preference deals HAD been intelligently designed….
Trackback replacement.
Sorry to go off-topic, but I couldn’t leave CL’s comment unchallenged.
Most people are not pro-choice because they don’t think the foetus is alive. Of course it’s alive!
They are pro-choice because they don’t think any living being has a right to use the body of an unwilling person to sustain their life.
“it rejects the idea that the evolution of everything from the Big Bang onwards is a fully explained done-deal, with no input necessary from people of either faith or philosophical conjecture. ”
It’s an easy concession and probably a wise one, bit like missing out on the footy team and claiming the oranges as your domain. If people of faith or philosphical persuasion want to have their ponderings included in the larger question of life that’s fine but it doesn’t make their input any more scientific. ID is trying to claim that it is valid input and it’s wrong - small problem of a lack of evidence. The choices are quite simple; either ID comes up with the goods, or we give it an easy in by changing the rules of science. Any takers on the latter? Oh and yah boo the villain scientists that claim to know everything like ahmm…
Kate, a friend of mine says he has several DVDs of people being touched by noodly appendages, would that be any help for Dr. Nelson?
What annoys me is how some people say abortion should be outlawed and then turn around and castigate single parents. This comment is not directed at anyone in particular on this thread, as I don’t know enough about the various views on the subject. If you are going to outlaw something, then you have to be prepared to support the people affected.
Now you wouldn’t expect the experts in Unintelligent Design here at LP to understand their limitations, but perhaps Brendan Nelson naturally does with ID. Still I don’t think he’ll exactly be introducing this here at http://www.techcentralstation.com/081005A.html into our primary schools.
Hat tip to http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007324.php
Dr Nelson said he had met the proponents of a new worldwide Wahabist caliphate and mass terror bombing, in addition to watching a DVD on the subject.
“Do I think it should be a replacement for religious studies now taught? I most certainly don‚Äôt think that it should be,” he told the National Press Club in Canberra.
“In fact I would be quite concerned if it were to replace it.
“Do I think that parents in schools should have the opportunity if they wish to for students also to be exposed to this and be taught about it? Yes. I think that‚Äôs fine.”
I’m dumb today. It was Campus Crusade for Christ mentioned by Amanda then Tim. Sorry.
More than usually obtuse there, Observa. What’s your point?
Graham’s comment is spot on, although Amway Creationism comes to mind as a more off-the-wall description when you consider the networking involved. Perhaps Nelson is trying illustrate the shortcomings of the University education system through personal example?
If you want to return to the Dark Ages, then by all means encourage or be indifferent to Intelligent Design. You can show your commitment to the super-rigorous ‘i’ve got my fingers in my ears and I can’t hear you, nerny ner ner’ scientific model followed by ID proponents by divesting yourself of all worldy goods created using the obviously fraudulent scientific method so loved by those crazy ‘only a theory’ evolutionists. At the same time, you can wonder why the Middle East went from being more scientifically advanced than Europe to being a haven for the Wahabi sect.
Fyodor,
Here at http://www.orgonomy.org/article_terrorism_trueliberal.html#back3 is a scientific psychoanalysis of a ‘Modern Liberal’ (my ‘Unintelligent Designer’ or the modern lefty liberal progressive). Bear in mind this analysis was produced in the 1950s, but some scientific discoveries are preciously timeless.
Yep, their attitudes to sex, education and God all get a mention. Notice how Mindy chimes in with “What annoys me is how some people say abortion should be outlawed and then turn around and castigate single parents….If you are going to outlaw something, then you have to be prepared to support the people affected.”
Whadda we want? Sex! When da we wannit? Now! Oops, baby! Whadda we want? Govt Big Daddy fix up now! Bloody priceless!
You’re a Reichian, observa. That explains a lot. Now, back to your furry room!
So I take it observa you’ve also had the smoko room fitted out as an orgone box and are urging your salt of the earth workers to stay healthy by striving to achieve “true orgasm”?
“Whadda we want? Sex! When da we wannit? Now!”
You weren’t joking after all were you?
Sad, isn’t it, that some people need a warning label [e.g. “WARNING: the Interweb may contain shite! If you are gullible, do not believe everything you read! Erm…except this warning, of course!”] with their interweb connection?
Just for the record, Observa, do you want to state an opinion on the topic of this thread?
For observa:
I’ve got an orgone accumulator
It makes me feel greater
I’ll see you sometime later
When I’m through with my accumulator
Let’s not scoff at orgone energy too much, folks; with a little R & D it might make a valuable contribution to reducing our dependency on fossil fuels.
Oh yeah Tim you old rockdog, that’ll kick out the bions.
Maybe observa thinks that bions should get equal time in biology classes?
Intelligent design may be an example of a “New variation in a new species” - I trust natural selection will winnow it out of the tree of knowledge in good time.
I suspect, (no empirical evidence) that the battalions of scientists that subscribe and contribute to Darwinian evolution theory are constituted at a ratio from both camps. That is to say some that aspire to Gods reward and some that take responsibility for their own lives.
If we compared that ratio with those supporters of “Intelligent Design” would it be the same?
Dr Nelson is a politician, maybe he could find an agenda?
On the positive side a class for “Critical Thinking” (ala. Carl Sagan) could use this subject as a 101.
Sorry if I offended any Christians reading this thread, I meant to offend all religions masquerading as science.
Beepee, offending all religions equally will get you called a relativist here.
From the furious attempts to change the subject, it seems that not even the RWDBs can bring themselves to support Nelson on this one.
Gee whiz and here was I thinking you lot were all into the history of evolution and all that scientific, psychoanalytical stuff.
“Just for the record, Observa, do you want to state an opinion on the topic of this thread?”
Hmmm! The big God Creation vs Evolution Science thingy?
Well from time to time I do picture this big funnel with mankind delving into his microscopes and sub-atomic particles at the narrow end and exploring the stars with space shuttles at the big end. The funnel sits centrally on a great table with Thor, Neptune, Osiris, Buddha, etc, etc all sitting around playing *a popular card game*, when Allah turns quizzically to JC and asks- Do you think we’ll ever get bored watching that lot inside the vase?- to raucous laughter all round.
Guess my short answer is- Whatever gets you through the night and is a help rather than a hindrance to all the others groping around in the dark. In the meantime I’ll keep telling the kids I’m the closest thing to God they know, but now they’re big, the heathens are off worshipping false gods. They’ll come back to the fold eventually though because I’ve slipped in some ID of course. Now whose deal is it?
“From the furious attempts to change the subject, it seems that not even the RWDBs can bring themselves to support Nelson on this one.”
Well I’m certainly supporting Nelson and teaching this stuff here http://www.techcentralstation.com/081005A.html in schools, although I doubt the JPs will be able to handle it just yet. So what’s Tim saying? No more Nativity plays, Easter Bunny, Santa, Harry Potter witches and warlocks, magic puddings or fairy tales? All bunkum and balderdash and we need to get serious deconstructing Dick and Dora, Nip and Fluff and putting them in context for the munchkins…err, whatever they’re called these days.
Popper would say you’re supporting an unfalsifiable theory, Observa, but somehow I doubt you’d give him as much credence as the credo of a bronze-age fairy tale. Which just about explains this thread, really.
They do teach it in schools, observa. It’s called religious studies.
I’m impressed you could understand what observa was on about, fyodor. Reading him sometimes is like reading Hunter S Thompson on angel dust, but without the humour.
Observa’s great skill is to use language without communicating. Fortunately, he linked to an astro-turf outfit that employs writers who can communicate ideas, albeit incorrect ones.
Jason, I think we all know what really goes on in Observa’s ’smoko’ room.
For those of you too young to remember Dick and Dora, Nip and Fluff try here http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/pop/school60.htm
They were intro readers with simple phonics like ‘See Nip(the dog) run’ a bit like today’s Dr Seuss books. Much too PC with married mum, dad, kids, dog and cat for these days I gather. After that it was on to the SRA reading laboratories where you progressed along the coloured boxes of cards and their numbered exercises.(I’m up to 25 Green and you’re still on the Brown? nyah, nyah!)The Observa’s competitive edge was finely honed in those formative years.
The link is about British schools, but Oz ones were exact clones. Note the photo of the heinous inculcation of your grandparents and parents with the Nativity Play.
Always with the negative bions observa, always with the negative bions.
They are pro-choice because they don’t think any living being has a right to use the body of an unwilling person to sustain their life.
I’m glad that pro-choice people have come out against the State being able to force unwilling fathers to use their bodies to pay child support.
But I digress and now where were we? Oh yes remember the Observa takes the relaxed view- Whatever gets you through the night and is a help rather than a hindrance to all the others groping around in the dark. Now that could be crystals, aromatherapy, Jesus Christ, John Howard’s white picket fence, Marx or perhaps secular liberal progressivism is your bag. There’s only one choice the Evolutionists cry! It’s a no-brainer, or in their case, I only need to use my brain. Don’t listen to those Intelligent Design types and their mumbo jumbo. Secularism rules OK! We are the true light and the way. Curiously enough when I look at some of their prescriptions and outcomes, I’m more than a little confused.
Let’s take their rational black armband theory of history here. Apparently for these wise secularists, the blame for the black condition can be laid at the feet of those Intelligent Designer types- The Christian missionaries and their whacky bronze age theories. Curiously enough their remedy was the Rainbow Serpent and the Dreamtime. Either that or a good dose of secular liberal progressive programs, I can’t quite decide which. After 3 decades or so of this, the results are becoming obvious here http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16230761-29277,00.html and here http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16208624-17001,00.html
Well I don’t recall the Christian missionaries killing 60 of their flock in 8 years do you? However I do recall that pooh pooher of ID, John Quiggin rationally attributed insurgent caused deaths in Iraq, to those who upset the applecart with Saddam. Now if there’s a degree of truth in that argument, what culpability is the Observa to lay at the feet of those same critics of ID here? Perhaps the Lancet could be called upon to give us an accurate assessment of their casualties and overall outcomes. As far as I’m concerned, after 30 odd years the jury is out and I’ll plonk for the outcomes of Catholics, Lutherans or even the Pentecostalists any day.
I’m not so sure about the Muslims, but I’ll leave the fairer sex here and elsewhere to be the judge of that http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=14881
If this Imam thinks women are responsible for rape does that mean that the men are animals who are unable to control themselves? I bet he wouldn’t like it if it was put that way.
Please don’t feed the animals, Mindy.
[Apologies, couldn’t resist]
Mindy,
I’m not an expert on Islam, but I think they’re only animals if the the girl is under 9, in which case a respectable bloke is honour bound to kill the girl.
You’re absolutely right, Observa. You’re not an expert on Islam.
Observa pushes his hobbyhorse around the ring once again.
Though I suspect he rides a horse rather less well than another horse would.
Intelligent Design strikes me as just another version of the first mover argument that was popular centuries ago and now abandoned.
Any time the religious come up against science they cant overthrow, they add ‘yeah but our guy started it’.
ID doesnt answer anything, its just an attempt to slide their unwavering belief of a higher power into whatever science is popular at the time. Its as much an admission of their failure to combat the science of Evolution as anything else.
And like any other issue, rational debate of the issue, not outrage and dismissal will do far more to convince people and change opinions.
We should be welcoming this debate. Its an easy win , and shows to the Australian public who are 60% christian why they should have leaders with christian values. Not Christian leaders.
If you want to tackle hillsong and Costello & co’s attempt to pander to the religious vote, heres the best ground to take them on. Secular liberalism and science have won this debate before. This is just mopping up a crude counter-attack.
It’s been said before that if man didn’t have God to explain the inexplicable, he’d have invented it, (perhaps just like Evolution.) Well similar logic could equally apply to those eternally restless souls, who see religious or well developed social and ethical mores, as restricting their personal freedom to act, hence they invented secular liberal progressivism(SLP). This allows them to claim the commanding moral and ethical heights of rationalism, from which they can look down upon the intellectually unenlightened masses. A certain all knowing, smug self-satisfaction ensues among the enlightened in group, like an art appreciation society. Come and join us in the rarified atmosphere of our exclusive club, observa they urge. The times they are a changin’ or evolving and you don’t want to get left behind, or trampled in the rush. Alluring to a young O, but alas the older wiser O is a bit of a rational skeptic, because basically for him the proof of a pudding is in the eating, although comparing recipes among chefs can certainly whet his appetite.
SLP can be taken to its logical conclusion- ie It’s my fundamental right to chemically alter my consciousnes, or indulge my personal sexual desires, free of those unenlightened religious or social mores. Like this bloke here http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16237862-29277,00.html Yes O, scratch any SLP deep enough and you’re gunna find some core belief and values old son, otherwise it’s the stargate of empty nothingness and anything goes meboy. A bit like their scientific Evolution theory really when you ask if this means some species or sub species are more evolved than others. It’s time to shutup heretic, politely change the subject and fall back on us all being God’s creatures, with intrinsic worth and part of his ID. Dr Shrink puts their free-riding views completely and succinctly when he says- ‚’We should be welcoming this debate. It’s an easy win and shows to the Australian public who are 60% christian why they should have leaders with christian values. Not Christian leaders.’ Priceless isn’t it? He likes the omelette and the recipe, it’s just those pesky eggs he could do without. Presumably SLP eggheads would make the omelette perfect. Well let’s test that theory shall we?
We have the perfect situation in microcosm with the Mutitjulu people at Uluru. Here is the lefty SLP’s dream. These people are not poor, oppressed and downtrodden by evil capitalists. Far from it, because they are the pinnacle of capitalism in having the keys to the ticket-box of one the natural wonders of the world and all that economic rent. The results of SLP ? A $4 million graveyard of cars and elders sleeping in the sandhills for safety from their offspring, while the latter destroy themselves. Have a guess what’s missing from the omelette? Yes it’s those pesky eggs and their inherent values to challenge the egghead chefs and their recipes for culinary disaster. I’ll stick with the traditional cooks and their recipes thank you very much.
A fine rant there Observa, but history simply isnt on your side. (esp when you choose such ludicrious examples)
You talk about ‘well developed social and ethical mores’, but every time we let religion dictate societies legislation, those same view cause harm and suffering. The fact the dark ages correlate with a time when religion ruled the world isnt a co-incidence.
Like the religious, secular liberals hold many strong moral and ethical views. (Especially ethical, which are self imposed, rather than trying to impose our values on others)
However where we derive these values is not from 2000 year old texts but from a utilitarianian analysis of the world. What helps, what causes or alleviates suffering. Not what aligns our society with the wisdom of a time when rain dances were still considered useful ways of helping the summer crops.
This is directly in line with the Liberal rise in the 16th century which pushed society out of the grips of the churches, the monarchs, that allowed advances in science and attacked racism, bigotry and general tribalism that leads to nationalism, fundamentalism and conflict.
Modern society owes the majority of the virtues it takes for granted, (the virtues you so loudly applaud when fighting the islamic terrorists) to the acts of liberals who didnt want their religion running the government.
As I said last post, its a fine thing for our leaders to hold religious views and values. But it is a guaranteed way to cause harm and suffering when you let that religion dictate the legislation.
Shorter observa: Never mind the thread topic, I’m gonna stick you all in this grouping I’ve just created and put words in your mouths so I can call you hypocrites.
Also folks, do you reckon, what with the interest in Reichian teachings, a cosmology apparently based on that painting of cute card-playing dogs and the occasional tendency to refer to himself in the third person, that observa may not quite be the life and soul of the smoko room he imagines he is?
“Whew, OK he‚Äôs gone. What the hell was all that about?”
In fact he seems to spending more here than there. I reckon, like EP, he’s here for the fashion tips and the chicky-babes.
Fashion tips? Brown cardigans, perhaps?
From the Smoko Room Tapes, Vol. II
“Fuck me. Did you see his new suit? It’s all purple!”
So sure they are of their precious commanding heights with their SLP views. Not for one moment has it crossed their mind that the bedrock on which they stand, pontificating to the those upon the sands, is really the inheritance of Judeo Christian values down the ages. Yet when you ask them to consider the outcomes of their prescriptive rationalist truths, they fall silent, or resort to the last refuge of the charlatan.
You could bet London to a brick that not one of the SLPs here, is born to a solo mum on Govt benefits , with 4 or 5 other siblings, all to different absent fathers, yet many of them would advocate Govt incentive payments to encourage such behaviour. Not for their middle class parents with their middle class values, which are predicated upon a Judeo-Christian culture. The fallacy of composition they fall for, is that many at the margins of our society will share their temperament and values and hence outcomes. Not so when you examine the outcomes of sit down money it seems, whatever its largesse. As I said, I don’t recall the Christian missionaries, producing such abhorrent outcomes at Uluru, but I have seen the results of their ID, in many of the aboriginal leaders of today. Outcomes be damned, it seems to me it’s wearing the politically correct club tie that’s of overriding importance.
More dopey outcomes for SLPs on the horizon here too it seems http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16245852-23109,00.html
Remember the O warning you all about where your unintelligent design would lead us all? The end result will be the need to abandon any differential govt transfer payments to singles or uniteds(well not unless you intrusively means and assets test all cohabiters). Since there won’t be much more tax money forthcoming for the overall Centrelink kitty, what impact do you think that will have on the level of payments to singles? Won’t worry us traditional dual income, taxpaying marrieds of course. Come to think of it, there might be some very useful incentive effects, with such lower payments.
Observa, I don’t need semi-coherent lectures on Western Culture. I’m a postgraduate history student at a standstone university.
I am Western Culture.
Liam, if that’s the case, please make subsequent comments on this thread in LATIN. Thank you.
I hate to be the first to say it. I haven’t a clue what Observa is on about.
Liam, you are Batman. Observa is clearly the Riddler.
Hilarious!
Shorter observa of 10:08 am - secular liberal progressivism leads to sex with rabbits.
that makes me the joker!!
The “-r” is superfluous, Homey.
Thats it your fyored!
Well judging by the latest posts from Mark and Irant, they get it. For quite some time now, it would appear that the West has been labouring somewhat under the illusion that science and rationalism have won the debate over dogma and religion. Fundamentalist Islam has come along to challenge that view and tip the bucket on the smugness of SLP. Essentially science and rational deduction have their limits. Sooner or later you just gotta believe and the question now for the West is- in what are we’re gunna believe?
Having said that, it’s clear to many that Christianity has evolved and adapted to scientific enquiry and had some degree of Reformation. It’s pretty hard to say God made the flat earth in 7 days, when it’s clear the earth is round. As for the 7 days well… So, if some religions are evolving, then it follows that some are more evolved than others. Not so say some Evolutionist adherents elsewhere. The Rainbow Serpent and the Dreamtime, Islam, Christianity, etc and their beliefs and values are all the same and produce the same outcomes. Hmmmmm…an interesting empirical perception. You can see the dilemma for Evolution fans here. They have to get down and get dirty with those damned religious nutters, because they have some very obvious shortcomings of their own. One thing’s for certain though. In democracies it’s majority rules alright, which is a bit of a problem if you stuff nations full of one kind of religious nutter over another, particularly if they breed well. The outcome should be obvious to any rationalist. It may be a case of choosing the lesser of two evils perhaps?
As an aside of some relevance here, I should raise the interesting predicament of SA’s 57 yr old Mark Brindal, a Liberal State Opposition MP and former Govt minister. Now Mark has apparently admitted to cheating on his wife, by having a homosexual affair with a 24 yr old in his parliamentary office. The 24 yr old’s father is basically quoted as saying his son is not a ‘high achiever’- “He plays with Dinky Toys, for God’s sake.” What a freaking values quagmire that is, but according to the SLP viewpoint, such behaviour should have little or no bearing on his ability to represent and govern us. Watching the MSM and the all their different value sets tip-toe around that little lot, is bloody hilarious. One thing’s for sure though- That dude is now unelectable and he and everyone else knows it. There’s no scientific explanation for it though.
Ok, Liam can be Batman this week.
I’m all for compulsory classes in Comparative Religion. I think it’s a great idea.
Might teach kids how to think critically about everything.
Then ID and all this gumph would be a storm in a teacup and recognised as such.
“Shorter observa of 10:08 am - secular liberal progressivism leads to sex with rabbits.”
Longer observa- secular liberal progressivism has little to say about sex with rabbits.
i think of observa as two-face rather than Joker. He’s not completely insane, like Two-face he occasionally lapses into sanity (Harvey Dent), but that’s soon gone with a flip of the coin.
“Longer observa- secular liberal progressivism has little to say about sex with rabbits. ”
so i take it that sick yuppy bastard was convicted of animal cruelty and buggering bugs bunny under the christian theocratic laws of australia, observa?
Say what you will, Jason, but you must admit that Bugs Bunny always looked the Hotness in a dress, which he wore A LOT. Just sayin’, is all…
“so i take it that sick yuppy bastard was convicted of animal cruelty and buggering bugs bunny under the christian theocratic laws of australia, observa?”
Yes, just as he may be under the democratically evolved law of a majority of muslims. There may of course be another clause in their democratically evolved buggery laws, as well as some more permanent deterrent for both cases. Any Judeo-Christian majority, democratic country you know of that locks people up for 20 yrs for possession of 4.1kg of MJ Jason? Some democratic countries you can kill and eat cows, some you can’t. Ditto whales. Not judging, just saying.
’sick yuppy bastard’- err, that’s not a value judgement is it Jason, like some vegan might throw at you for eating battery chooks is it? Where’s all this judgmental values stuff written in the sacred tenets of SLP mate?
what’s your point, observa and are you familiar with the concept of a rhetorical question?
i buy free range eggs and i’m a SLP, observa, and the laws that sent that sick bugger to jail are SLP laws too, not judaeo-christian laws. and you’ve just contradicted yourself by noting that presumably SLP vegans are capable of value judgements.
your strawmen are flailing in the wind
“Any Judeo-Christian majority, democratic country you know of that locks people up for 20 yrs for possession of 4.1kg of MJ Jason?”
There are some Judaeo-Christians who advocate capital punishment for drunkards, druggies and homos, observa. what stops them? liberal democracy.
http://reason.com/9811/col.olson.shtml
Perhaps the shorter SLP?- It’s obvious that only a sick yuppy bastard would bugger Easter Bunny, but 57 yr old politicians buggering 24 yr olds with their dinky toys, now let me see… where’s my SLP manual again? Nope!…try D for dinky toys….???
As I’m working (and not able to read the whole thread), can someone please summarise observer’s comments in a nutshell? They’re hardly comprehensible!
if you can’t distinguish between 24 year old adults and little furry bunnies, you’re the one with the problems, matey
“….what stops them? liberal democracy.”
At long last he gets it. The only thing that stands between any democratic judeo/legal system and another is the composition and tenets of the majority of voters. Fill this country full of Japanese and we’ll probably be allowed to legally kill and eat whales. Need I labour the point?
Fill the country with Observas and I’m moving to Japan.
Whats this latest craze of putting ‘Judeo-’ in front of things?
My favourite is “Judeo-Christian”… yes, that a long and harmonious tradition isnt it?
Anyone would think Christianity wasn’t largely responsible for centuries of anti-semitism the way thats chucked around.
“Fill the country with Observas and I‚Äôm moving to Japan.”
Apparently liam gets it too.
It even provoked harry to think “I‚Äôm all for compulsory classes in Comparative Religion. I think it‚Äôs a great idea.”
Careful harry or you’ll start down the path of assessing outcomes here(Mutitjuli people?) and logically moving back one step to actively discriminating for or against the underlying core beliefs as a result.
You might even fall for the visceral absolutism of Jason here “if you can‚Äôt distinguish between 24 year old adults and little furry bunnies, you‚Äôre the one with the problems, matey” Well the observa may well have the same absolute visceral objections to bunny buggery as Jason. However, Jason might want to hang the culprit, whereas the O might not. Some other religious, visceral objectors might want to hang both culprits for either act of buggery here. The O might think our polly most unworthy for infidelity and cheating on his wife. Others might think our polly unworthy for taking advantage of the intellectually disadvantaged. The same attitude they would take with the O in a commercial transaction. Social stigma or the strong arm of the law and its punisment, is inextricably linked with culture and religion.
Seems to me, that SLP is the Felix’s magic bag of other absolute values you go for, when you disagree with some formalised tenets of other IDers and their religions. SLP, the catch-all just like falling back on ID. What we might conveniently label as ‘Other’. That’s why I’d include them in your comparisons harry. The acid test for all should be social outcomes. That’s why I think Christian missionaries were better for the Mutitjulu than the Dreamtime or SLP administrators, but perhaps I should be less judgmental and more patient.
Drshrink - Thank you for your first post (one of the few here that I understand without a headache or a dictionary).
Let me agree that “outrage and dismissal” will not achieve what reasoned debate can. It seems to me though, the reasoning is all the more problematic if one proponent defaults to a higher power which they regard as requiring no further explanation.
I think the most frustrating aspect is how Dr Nelson has legitimized(inadvertently or not) a new untestable distraction for students in our under resourced science classes. These are the places where experiment, result and conclusion are learned. Should we ask these students to test their proofs and then tell them that is ends with God? Not only is it emminently unfair it is also an easy way out for the lazy when the going gets tough.
Intelligent Design as an idea will produce more closed minds than free thinkers and in my humble opinion the waste is just too hard to bare.
The connection between religion and Intelligent Design seems symbiotic to me and it may be obvious this formulates my opposition on the subject. I welcome the debate and even the subject in our schools, philosophy maybe but not as science.
I think someone’s orgone box needs recalibrating.
“…has legitimized(inadvertently or not) a new untestable distraction for students in our under resourced science classes. These are the places where experiment, result and conclusion are learned.”
Spot on. Do we really need this kinda pissant distraction at a time when, in an increasingly globalised world of large low-cost labour pools, Aus’ future will more and more depend on highly localised resources operations and very high-end services and R&D/IP sectors. All of which depend in one way or another on a sound grasp of the scientific method.
Creationism!