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	<title>Comments on: Shakespearian Tragedy</title>
	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Fyodor</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-37088</link>
		<dc:creator>Fyodor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Nov 2005 00:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-37088</guid>
		<description>Yes, apparently video libraries have been so successful that some towns are now trialling the same concept with books. Ah-Ah-Aah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, apparently video libraries have been so successful that some towns are now trialling the same concept with books. Ah-Ah-Aah.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-37086</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Nov 2005 00:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-37086</guid>
		<description>The "Library" ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;Library&#8221; ?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Marina</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-37062</link>
		<dc:creator>Marina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-37062</guid>
		<description>Where can I find stuff about shakespearian tragedy history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where can I find stuff about shakespearian tragedy history.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-34496</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Oct 2005 00:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-34496</guid>
		<description>Yes, 'looser' was a bad slip there - and without evne the excuse of hayst commenting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, &#8216;looser&#8217; was a bad slip there - and without evne the excuse of hayst commenting.</p>
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		<title>By: weathergirl</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-34495</link>
		<dc:creator>weathergirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Oct 2005 00:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-34495</guid>
		<description>Forgive me for quoting Jeff Sparrow in full, but it takes considerable trawling to find this on his website. It's "a newspaper thingy", Marina, on this very topic:

Check out the editorial in [Tues 29 Sept] Australian.

It‚Äôs a typically blimpy fulmination about falling standards in education, a decline fostered ‚Äî wouldn‚Äôt you know it! ‚Äî by those pesky activists from the sixties and seventies. All the one-time revolutionaries have become, you see, schoolteachers, just so they can prevent impressionable students from reading real books (and thus, presumably, steer them down the path of Mao Tsetung).

The editorialist, working himself up into the requisite state of faux outrage, explains:

"...the days when Year 12 English in Victoria was deliberately demanding, requiring students to engage with half a dozen classic novels, plays and poets are long gone...." 

Why is the Oz so keen on Great Books? 

 "...If students have to work hard to grasp the meaning of texts that come from a different time, they may realise that the whole world cannot be understood according to the conventions of TV, video games, or conform to fashionable political pieties..."

This, of course, makes no sense whatsoever.  If the point is to force students to work hard to grasp the meaning of texts in order to challenge conventions, well, they‚Äôd be far better off studying novels from Nigeria than the dreary Leavisite canon. 

But logic doesn‚Äôt matter as the article ticks one old fogey box after another on its way to the inevitable blustery conclusion.

"... Instead of a focus on understanding classic texts, there is now an emphasis on acquiring competencies, analysing websites and interpreting meaning in the media. The looser is literature..."

Um...that would be 'loser‚Äô, guys. Back to the books, perhaps. 

(Apologies to Amanda, the anti-pedant pedant.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgive me for quoting Jeff Sparrow in full, but it takes considerable trawling to find this on his website. It&#8217;s &#8220;a newspaper thingy&#8221;, Marina, on this very topic:</p>
<p>Check out the editorial in [Tues 29 Sept] Australian.</p>
<p>It‚Äôs a typically blimpy fulmination about falling standards in education, a decline fostered ‚Äî wouldn‚Äôt you know it! ‚Äî by those pesky activists from the sixties and seventies. All the one-time revolutionaries have become, you see, schoolteachers, just so they can prevent impressionable students from reading real books (and thus, presumably, steer them down the path of Mao Tsetung).</p>
<p>The editorialist, working himself up into the requisite state of faux outrage, explains:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;the days when Year 12 English in Victoria was deliberately demanding, requiring students to engage with half a dozen classic novels, plays and poets are long gone&#8230;.&#8221; </p>
<p>Why is the Oz so keen on Great Books? </p>
<p> &#8220;&#8230;If students have to work hard to grasp the meaning of texts that come from a different time, they may realise that the whole world cannot be understood according to the conventions of TV, video games, or conform to fashionable political pieties&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>This, of course, makes no sense whatsoever.  If the point is to force students to work hard to grasp the meaning of texts in order to challenge conventions, well, they‚Äôd be far better off studying novels from Nigeria than the dreary Leavisite canon. </p>
<p>But logic doesn‚Äôt matter as the article ticks one old fogey box after another on its way to the inevitable blustery conclusion.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230; Instead of a focus on understanding classic texts, there is now an emphasis on acquiring competencies, analysing websites and interpreting meaning in the media. The looser is literature&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Um&#8230;that would be &#8216;loser‚Äô, guys. Back to the books, perhaps. </p>
<p>(Apologies to Amanda, the anti-pedant pedant.)</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-34487</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-34487</guid>
		<description>heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey</p>
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		<title>By: Marina</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-34486</link>
		<dc:creator>Marina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-34486</guid>
		<description>This is a really cool site. 

Is there a newspaper thingy? Ok bye</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a really cool site. </p>
<p>Is there a newspaper thingy? Ok bye</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29507</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29507</guid>
		<description>A problem in this debate, wherever it's carried out, is the difficulty of defining what is canonical and what is not.  Our idea of what the canon is in this country is heavily influenced by F.R. Leavis and his followers,  partly because many of the present older generation of university lecturers trained in that milieu, and partly because we are still somewhat stuck in the postcolonial groove where canon matters.  That is why we immediately think Shakespeare, Austen, Eliot, Brontes, James, Conrad, Lawrence.  Americans don't recognise this clustering as having any special significance at all, and the British see it as a kind of artefact of early twentieth century intellectual history.  

I would say that most people teaching literature in English in Australia actually teach very much broader ranges of writers, modes, and periods than the silly idea of Great Books which seems to animate people like Brendan Nelson.  Those who do teach these writers generally do so in ways that certainly don't suggest these texts possess some kind of medicinal powers.  I find it impossible to teach Shakespeare, Melville, Henry James without acknowledging the queerness of their writings</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A problem in this debate, wherever it&#8217;s carried out, is the difficulty of defining what is canonical and what is not.  Our idea of what the canon is in this country is heavily influenced by F.R. Leavis and his followers,  partly because many of the present older generation of university lecturers trained in that milieu, and partly because we are still somewhat stuck in the postcolonial groove where canon matters.  That is why we immediately think Shakespeare, Austen, Eliot, Brontes, James, Conrad, Lawrence.  Americans don&#8217;t recognise this clustering as having any special significance at all, and the British see it as a kind of artefact of early twentieth century intellectual history.  </p>
<p>I would say that most people teaching literature in English in Australia actually teach very much broader ranges of writers, modes, and periods than the silly idea of Great Books which seems to animate people like Brendan Nelson.  Those who do teach these writers generally do so in ways that certainly don&#8217;t suggest these texts possess some kind of medicinal powers.  I find it impossible to teach Shakespeare, Melville, Henry James without acknowledging the queerness of their writings</p>
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		<title>By: Chestnut Wild</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29484</link>
		<dc:creator>Chestnut Wild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29484</guid>
		<description>Pretty good for Nabakov. But nothing at all to do with Doctor Hoffman that I can see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty good for Nabakov. But nothing at all to do with Doctor Hoffman that I can see.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29469</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29469</guid>
		<description>Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death.  Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.&lt;!-- X-spaminator-strike: whitelist, -10 --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-passed: IP check --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-strike: crap flooding, 3 --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-passed: email check --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-passed: author url --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-passed: comment body --&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,<br />
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,<br />
To the last syllable of recorded time;<br />
And all our yesterays have lighted fools<br />
The way to dusty death.  Out, out, brief candle!<br />
Life&#8217;s but a walking shadow; a poor player<br />
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage<br />
And then is heard no more: it is a tale<br />
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,<br />
Signifying nothing.<!-- X-spaminator-strike: whitelist, -10 --><!-- X-spaminator-passed: IP check --><!-- X-spaminator-strike: crap flooding, 3 --><!-- X-spaminator-passed: email check --><!-- X-spaminator-passed: author url --><!-- X-spaminator-passed: comment body --></p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29453</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29453</guid>
		<description>"Share it with us...."

Not while Family First has a senate seat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Share it with us&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not while Family First has a senate seat.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chestnut Wild</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29448</link>
		<dc:creator>Chestnut Wild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29448</guid>
		<description>Did you, Lew? Share it with us....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you, Lew? Share it with us&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Lew Nolan</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29441</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew Nolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29441</guid>
		<description>"I‚Äôd rather read Lucky Jim again than the Bell Jar. But I would also feel myself impoverished if I hadn‚Äôt read the female-authored classics and much else besides."

You're heading in the right direction there M'Lord.

"'The Infernal Desire Machines of Doctor Hoffman‚Äô by Angela Carter"

I liked the book so much I wrote a song about it. Fuck, it was exhausting to perform it on stage though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I‚Äôd rather read Lucky Jim again than the Bell Jar. But I would also feel myself impoverished if I hadn‚Äôt read the female-authored classics and much else besides.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re heading in the right direction there M&#8217;Lord.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8216;The Infernal Desire Machines of Doctor Hoffman‚Äô by Angela Carter&#8221;</p>
<p>I liked the book so much I wrote a song about it. Fuck, it was exhausting to perform it on stage though.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29415</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 07:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29415</guid>
		<description>"But, hey, if people don‚Äôt want to read things because their authors are the wrong sex, nationality or colour, it‚Äôs up to them."

That's not what I'm saying, yer lawdship. That's not what anyone says, as far as I can tell.

I'm saying that many people seek out representation as one of the keys to enjoying literature and it is significantly easier for white men to find that representation in the canon than it is for women, non-white people, gays and lesbians, etc. 

That doesn't mean one doesn't read wonderful literature by people who are not like you. It just means that all of us seek resonance in the art we enjoy, whether it's pop music or opera. Women's desire to read books by other women, about other women, comes from that. It's not about exclusion it's about inclusion.&lt;!-- X-spaminator-strike: whitelist, -10 --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-passed: IP check --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-strike: crap flooding, 3 --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-passed: email check --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-passed: author url --&gt;&lt;!-- X-spaminator-passed: comment body --&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But, hey, if people don‚Äôt want to read things because their authors are the wrong sex, nationality or colour, it‚Äôs up to them.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m saying, yer lawdship. That&#8217;s not what anyone says, as far as I can tell.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m saying that many people seek out representation as one of the keys to enjoying literature and it is significantly easier for white men to find that representation in the canon than it is for women, non-white people, gays and lesbians, etc. </p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t mean one doesn&#8217;t read wonderful literature by people who are not like you. It just means that all of us seek resonance in the art we enjoy, whether it&#8217;s pop music or opera. Women&#8217;s desire to read books by other women, about other women, comes from that. It&#8217;s not about exclusion it&#8217;s about inclusion.<!-- X-spaminator-strike: whitelist, -10 --><!-- X-spaminator-passed: IP check --><!-- X-spaminator-strike: crap flooding, 3 --><!-- X-spaminator-passed: email check --><!-- X-spaminator-passed: author url --><!-- X-spaminator-passed: comment body --></p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29404</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29404</guid>
		<description>I've read more books by men than by women but if I were to single out individual works whose discovery was in the way of being a kind of revelation, the first ones that come to mind are:

'Martha Quest' by Doris Lessing.
'Alias Grace' by Margaret Atwood
'The Infernal Desire Machines of Doctor Hoffman' by Angela Carter
'Horace Sippog and the Siren's Song' by Su Walton.

All women.  

Smugly virtuous me, just like Malvolio. (Now there's a play - Twelfth Night - that you couldn't say is 'difficult'.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read more books by men than by women but if I were to single out individual works whose discovery was in the way of being a kind of revelation, the first ones that come to mind are:</p>
<p>&#8216;Martha Quest&#8217; by Doris Lessing.<br />
&#8216;Alias Grace&#8217; by Margaret Atwood<br />
&#8216;The Infernal Desire Machines of Doctor Hoffman&#8217; by Angela Carter<br />
&#8216;Horace Sippog and the Siren&#8217;s Song&#8217; by Su Walton.</p>
<p>All women.  </p>
<p>Smugly virtuous me, just like Malvolio. (Now there&#8217;s a play - Twelfth Night - that you couldn&#8217;t say is &#8216;difficult&#8217;.)</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29401</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29401</guid>
		<description>Amen to that, Your Lordship.

You're right about Shaw. Shame. St Joan is fabulous. Never was that big on Pygmalion, though (maybe My Fair Lady put me off it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen to that, Your Lordship.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right about Shaw. Shame. St Joan is fabulous. Never was that big on Pygmalion, though (maybe My Fair Lady put me off it).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29399</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29399</guid>
		<description>I wasn't suggesting that Shakespeare should be read that way, Cardy, and I agree that it would be a contrived reading. I just wanted to make a historical point about whether or not you were correct to describe him as "pre-capitalist".

Amis' "The Green Man" is a better read than "Lucky Jim" IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t suggesting that Shakespeare should be read that way, Cardy, and I agree that it would be a contrived reading. I just wanted to make a historical point about whether or not you were correct to describe him as &#8220;pre-capitalist&#8221;.</p>
<p>Amis&#8217; &#8220;The Green Man&#8221; is a better read than &#8220;Lucky Jim&#8221; IMHO.</p>
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		<title>By: Lord Cardigan</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29397</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord Cardigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29397</guid>
		<description>I think it would be quite a contrived reading of Shakespeare to dismiss him as the rhetoric of a capitalist order.  Even if he was, should Shaw or Brecht be ignored because of their leftist politics (although I note that Shaw seems to be so out of fashion these days as to be almost invisible, compared to his profile even 20 years ago).  But, hey, if people don't want to read things because their authors are the wrong sex, nationality or colour, it's up to them.  I think they're missing out.  And if someone points me in the direction of something rich, resonant and meaningful, it's my loss if I say I have listened to enough black jazzmen of the 30s and I'm looking for something more from my own demographic.

Kate, Kingsley Amis (in his own inimitable way) said that when it came to reading he considered himself homosexual.  I think many people feel the same way.  I'd rather read Lucky Jim again than the Bell Jar.  But I would also feel myself impoverished if I hadn't read the female-authored classics and much else besides.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it would be quite a contrived reading of Shakespeare to dismiss him as the rhetoric of a capitalist order.  Even if he was, should Shaw or Brecht be ignored because of their leftist politics (although I note that Shaw seems to be so out of fashion these days as to be almost invisible, compared to his profile even 20 years ago).  But, hey, if people don&#8217;t want to read things because their authors are the wrong sex, nationality or colour, it&#8217;s up to them.  I think they&#8217;re missing out.  And if someone points me in the direction of something rich, resonant and meaningful, it&#8217;s my loss if I say I have listened to enough black jazzmen of the 30s and I&#8217;m looking for something more from my own demographic.</p>
<p>Kate, Kingsley Amis (in his own inimitable way) said that when it came to reading he considered himself homosexual.  I think many people feel the same way.  I&#8217;d rather read Lucky Jim again than the Bell Jar.  But I would also feel myself impoverished if I hadn&#8217;t read the female-authored classics and much else besides.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29394</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29394</guid>
		<description>I love Carter too. Good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love Carter too. Good stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29393</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 06:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/09/27/shakespearian-tragedy/#comment-29393</guid>
		<description>Firewo&lt;b&gt;r&lt;/b&gt;ks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firewo<b>r</b>ks.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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