To pick up on Chris’ post to the extent that he had some meta-reflections on blogging therein: - For the last three weeks or so, I’ve been giving serious consideration as to whether this blog should continue to exist. To some degree, LP was quarantined from the general and I think increasing nastiness of the political blogosphere, and characterised by a very positive, friendly and indeed flirty sort of interchange on comments threads. But an avalance of utter bile and bullshit appeared here, and as Kim I think correctly picked up on, once the illusion that there could actually be a nice friendly space here in the blogosphere was shattered, it’s very hard to rebuild.
I find - of late - my only role at this show is deleting the ever increasing volume of spam. And reading comments threads that are no longer light-hearted and amusing, but increasingly sour and dour stoushes of diminishing interest between tedious RWDBs and a shrinking number of Lefties. Too ritualistic if it’s not fun.
Do blogs like this actually have any viable role in stimulating discussion - or is their only role now to provide an opportunity for the sad and lost voices of the RWDBs to stoush with phantoms - now that the light hearted and free flowing fun is not so much in evidence? Or can it be revived?
I value different points of view but I have no desire to read tedious arguments between a majority of right wing commenters and a few lefties holding the fort. Maybe there’s a place for that but I’m not sure I want it to be under my auspices.
I’ve been more than a little disillusioned and disappointed that left wing commenters have left the field open to the RWDBs. My intention was always to provide a Left space. But I can’t do that by myself. I totally appreciate the sometimes witty and often good humoured right wingers who come here. But I don’t want to contribute to maintaining a space that’s dominated by tired and pedantic conservative views.
It’s just not me.
So now is the time for all good comrades to come rally. Use it or lose it.
My view, therefore, is perhaps six months is about the lifespan of a viable blog. However, I’m constrained by the fact that other people - whom I’ve very much encouraged to do so - write for this blog - and do so very well - and also that a lot of people read it. Both of those factors weigh very heavily with me.
But I wonder whether also I’ve not outlived my own usefulness as a blogger.
So, therefore I could do a few things. I could continue to edit this thing - and perhaps make an occasional contribution. And because there are so many good people who write well here, I’m happy to do so. A condition of this option would be that others would have to fill up the space - because I don’t any more have the desire and the willingness to do so on a daily basis - which I think are essential for blogging.
So that’s one way the place could go.
Another is a bit of a fantasy where I might spin off my own blog that only exists occasionally.
And another is that - just like increasingly dying academic disciplines like Sociology - and whether or not their fragments and traces can flame up again - a bit of creative destruction could wake people up out of complacency and lead to something truly new and innovative.
So I’d like to hear from people. My default option is to kill the thing given that it’s no longer fun for me and I’m sick of being an almost full time spam deleter. But I don’t do all this just for myself - so I emphasise that’s the default option only in terms of useful feedback in terms of how to reconfigure this blog.
If there are people who enjoy reading LP, now is also your first and perhaps last time to speak up.
So between now and next Saturday, I’d either like to see signs of revived life in the original spirit of LP, or serious suggestions of how to change and reconfigure this show, or we’ll join together in singing a Requiem for this space.
Another name for this post might be - “The Bonfire of the Vanities”.
-Emma Goldman.
As for LP (not that I wasn’t talking about LP) - I know what you mean, Mark.
I shall await feedback as to whether I need to sing that song - and indeed Dies Irae, Dies Illae next Saturday, and I hope I don’t, but if I do have to, I will do so with gusto.
Sorry to read that Mark. I didn’t realise it had changed that much, but I don’t read many threads (as distinct from posts, most of which I do read). I had one bad experience here, and had noticed that the once rather splendid LP gender balance seemed to have dropped away of late, but that’s about it. Most of my right-wing commenters have been quite civil or even fun (bar one well known pundit). It is tiresome overlooking or batting away or deleting the same old tired rude comments from RWDBs, not to mention spam (the difference is only slight). I guess it’s a compliment in a way, in the sense that I never read RWDB sites and find it mystifying that they will spend so much time and energy disrupting other sites - and sometimes wonder if there is some organisation and/or payment or somesuch somehow involved behind the scenes. Still, if you’re not enjoying it, there’s no point. I hope folks will rally or a better way of handling the blighters can be worked out.
That would have been worth saying in the post, too, Chris - a reasonably equal gender balance was once something of which we were all proud here at LP - but that too, seems to have gone with the wind of late… No doubt because women are too sensible to bother participating in pointless and predictable crud comments threads.
Sad, really.
Mmmm, a late at night reflective metapost. Cab sav Mark?
This is the only blog I regularly comment on. It would be a shame to lose it, even if my visiting (much less commenting) has become less frequent of late. I don’t know what to say. Maybe you can recruit someone to help you. Maybe then you can be more authoritarian in banning/deleting/censoring the disruptive influences.
Mark, If you’re not happy with the way LP is going then kill it. Life is too short to stress about this, impermanance is the normal state of things, more so in the blogging world.
I for one won’t be put out, you have my support whichever way you decide.
By the way appropos the comment thing Dan Gillmor has some thought re the anon/pseudonym commenter and first amendment rights.
And that’s how I look at it, and that’s why I don’t particularly engage in the comment stoushes, I have no real interest in debating any point with those usual suspects who refuse to comment in their name, I tend to look past them and to those who do post a “real” name because the pea hearted commenters who hide behind the skirts of a pseudonym are misusing their privelige.
This media has to grow up, and declaration is part of that process.
Anyway, I’ll keep posting until you make that fatal decision.
I’m backing that RWDB are paid. If not paid, its a projection by unorganised progressives. I think we are unorganised because of the religious left, ie new age mumbo jumbo, whose values are often quite reight wing, but as the are not established have destabilised what they can touch. I am the lord of the dance said he.
I suggest we get organised. We should form busineses and associations that actively (if not openly) discriminate against the RWDB, boycott all business identified as RWDB and actively employ people like me, able but unemployable due to people reptending to operate in a free market.
In Tasmania you can get a job, if you’re green/left/arty/mainlander, in social services or maybe a gov department. Maybe science, maybe your own cafe/antique shop. And that’s it.
Otherwise the conservative have colonised business arrangements for generations, unless you have the proper coloured school blazer there is no way it. I know some catholic school boys have taken into their own hands (not particularly left) and developed their own cricket/banking cabal.
We need to get organised, espouse nepotism and grind them down.
Dammit, I’ve become a RWDB looking after number one by inflicting pain myself!!
I don’t know, there seem to have been some that are noted for having a consistently fun and interesting set of commenters that are much older than six months (my example is Unfogged, Making Light is the standard example).
That said, it seems to be a much harder task to accomplish this when you have a mainly political blog. I can’t think of one that I read that has a really good comments section (although I don’t seek them out), and there seems to have to be a pretty high regulars:drive-by ratio to get things to have a consistent tone. And the perception that you have a bunch of regulars in the comment section also has to be maintained.
Re Phil’s comment, I’m always a bit sad when a blogger vanishes. It’s kind of like old schoolmates or workmates who you think of every so often, but have absolutely no networks of whom you can ask “so, what is X up to these days?” I still miss the Invisible Adjunct. That said, there’s a reason why I’ve never started a space like this. So much time, and blood.
I’ll be sorry to see the blog go, it has one of the more interesting Australian blogs and even some of the RWDB’s comments are clever.
But it is your life, do as you feel you must and good luck!
Sorry about the misplaced apostrophe!
Mark,
I’m certainly sorry to hear this. I’ve enjoyed your postings both on Troppo and here and since the range of contributors grew has been a great way of hearing from a bunch of people without going through a whole pile of different blogs. It has been a great place were people of a reasonable range of views could stoush happily. In addition as you mention it was great actually having a gender mix on a blog.
As for people having left the field, I will only comment if I spot that they’ve said something blatantly wrong in fact that hasn’t already been commented on. I’ve always found it completely wasteful of my time arguing against the more trenchant RWDB on other matters as they aren’t here to exchange, attempt to understand and debate others points of view, but merely here to recite their own. I’m sure others feel the same.
I would be sad to see LP go but sadly it may be a victim of its own success.
I believe it started on one of CS’s pieces which had shown bloging at its best and then ended up at its worst.
I do not think it is only the fault ‘RWDBs’
The reaction of some ‘lefties’ can be just as bad.
Rather than trying to show how smart you are by putting the person down just leave your argument and then stop.
Bring some humour in to change the mood even.
My very dear friend Fyodor is at his best when he is being funny ( because his humour needs intellectual depth) and it his worst when he is showing how smart
he is.
once the reactions stop perhaps the ratbags wil leave or make thoughtful contributions instead which they are capable of.
As Mawell smart would say make this bog one of goodness!!
I think blogging is a comment friven thing, cassic blog post is URL+Comment, wrting standalone ‘articles’ will dry up the ’source’ over time. I find commenting on another blog much easier than writing a blog entry.
This is partly because I do not have to construct a context for my ‘readers’. The blog entry is the context for my reaction. I think I am easier to read as a commentator than as a blogger commentating who has to create the context as well. I feel more confident that my writing will be understood.
I think I am a better commentator than blogger. That’s why I quite. Why I deleted the dolebludger blog is different. Much more personal.
Its about audience, even for the tangents.
So it’s true that the Left can’t survive in the presence of dissenting views.
That’s good news for society, though not so good for one of my favourite online haunts.
Still, if we take the culture war seriously — and I do — then I suppose this sort of thing is inevitable, as leftist ideas and arguments succumb once they leave the sheltered environment of their natural habitat, the closed-circle echo chamber where people who disagree are excluded.
It’s also interesting to note the paranoia expressed by some commentators who think that anyone who disagrees with them must be part of an organised, paid effort. Jeez louise guys, get real.
I’ll be sad if you shut up shop, Mark, but the fact is that politics is conflict, hence conflict will be part of any political undertaking in the real world, including a blog. If conflict is unacceptable, politics may not be the activity for you.
I, too, would be sorry to see this blog go.
It seems to me that one obvious solution to the problem of comments threads turning into nasty tedious playground exchanges is for thoughtful readers and commenters to:
(a) distinguish between other thoughtful commenters (whether of right or left) and RWDBs playing broken records on their gramophone minds;
(b) engage robustly but good-naturedly with the ideas of the former; and
(c) apply to the latter the old Irish proverb: “If you argue with a fool, people might not be able to tell the difference.”
Will everyone please stop being sorry and start doing something? Okay I’ll start. Mark, please please please (I’m on my knees here ;)) don’t go! If you delete LP then I won’t have anything to read all day at work. Although it’s very unlefty to say so, block their bloody IPs if necessary so we don’t have to listen to their rants. (with the exception of our fav pussy cat RWDB, LP wouldn’t be the same without him).
Oh no! don’t go!
Like Chris I don’t always read all of the comments, but I do read all the posts. Can you get a spam filter where the commenter has to type in some letters? I don’t know anything about it really but surely the spam problem can be overcome.
As for people trolling each other in comments, if they’re really wrecking the place, just ban their IPs, even just for a couple of days, like sending a naughty child to it’s room. They can start their own blogs if they want to.
It would be a shame to see LP die.
After our last encounter, Mark, I decided not to comment here any more, thereby getting one of the more annoying RWDBs out of your hair, but I still respect the blog and its commenters.
Mark,
It sucks to be Ken Parish, dunnit? [That’s an in-joke, BTW. If you don’t get it, you weren’t there]
I’d echo the comments of Fred, Phil and others. It’s just a blog, and you shouldn’t be blogging if you put more into it than you get out of it. Kill the Rodeo if you have to.
That said, I think you need to step back and accept what’s happening here. Steve Edney’s right: LP is a victim of its own success. IMO, LP is only attracting RWDBs because it is attracting so many new participants of all stripes. Like anyone else, I assume RWDBs are attracted to the open discussions, the intellectual cut & thrust, the humour, flirting etc. That is, LP offers a forum not found anywhere else in Ozblogistan, and it’s not surprising in the slightest, to me at least, that RWDBs are attracted to it.
Unfortunately, some of the RWDBs (and very few Lefties, I must say) seem to get their kicks from disrupting the discourse. This suggests a progression for LP in one of two directions: people adapt to the pub they’ve joined (i.e. the RWDBs settle down, possibly learning from EP’s bizarre example), or the pub adapts to the people joining it (i.e. testosteroneville). You seem to be afeared of the latter, but I think the jury’s out at this stage.
Here, here, I second Mindy & Laura. I regularly look to your blog for a break from work and some interesting political commentary. I rarely read the comments and would be happy just to read posts by you and your bloggers. Can’t you get some form of automatic comment moderation happening? I think typepad has a comment moderation facility. I know that onlineopinion has had to set up a comment moderation system.
Suspect the price of fame as a blogger is spam, unfortunately.
I think your problem is technological. Blog software doesnt scale well beyond ten commenters or so. Try scoop, you can give people editor permissions so it is less maintenance for yourself; people have to have accounts to comment so you can shut-down/ban users that dont respect the rules; that also removes your spam problem.
I third El; comment moderation is definitely worth exploring.
Personally, I commit not to bite at trolls any more.
I’m sorry you left, Rob. You’re one of the “RWDBs” I like and respect.
EP, you’re not being helpful. There’s a difference between dissent and disruption. Consuming a thread with endless pursuit of Tim Lambert is not dissent. Nor is stalking cs just because this is a “neutral” blog with a light touch on the delete button.
Chalk me up as another sad ex-lurker if this blog is given the axe.
I do think there is some scope for self-reflection though. I think that more and more, this blog has moved from a focus on issues themselves and a drive to establish common ground, to a narrow focus on the idealogical delination they can engender. What started out as a byline of playful dogwhistling to RWDB’s has, IMHO, become a more reactionary and militantly leftist approach to subjects.
It may or may not have started with RWDB’s in the comments thread, but if it did there’s still no reason to let a few “broken records” mould the shape of this blog into their leftist reflection. I think it’s avoidable if blog-posters take the lead in how they approach things, cool their outrage and ignore the bad apples on both sides.
Comment accounts seem like a good idea.
EP said, “So it‚Äôs true that the Left can‚Äôt survive in the presence of dissenting views.”
Another catty remark! That is what makes LP such a good read.
Folk like EP make my blood pressure rise to alarming heights at times but his quick stabs deflating pretensions are always worth reading.
Sorry to go vainly OT, but what does this mean, Homerkles? Does it mean that my humour, while extraordinarily consistent, lacks intellectual depth? And what do you mean by “it his worst when he is showing how smart he is”. I’m not offended, BTW, just puzzled.
Agreed with Fyodor, it’s a great pub/wine bar, but it can feel like I’m stuck in the corner with the bloke that no-one else will talk to. If we’ve left the field open it’s because we’ve excused ourselves to go to the bathroom in the hope we can bump into someone else on the way back.
Mark, the RWDB invasion is an inevitable consequence of the success of LP.
Looking at the dark side, tim blair, who I still believe is the most widely read RWDB, is so insecure he wont allow debate on his site at all, which gives you some idea about his resilience.
RWDB’s are generally pragmatic bigots who lack a social conscience. I’d be really disappointed if you let their unfortunate demeanours close you down. You’re much better than that.
I’d also add, just quickly, that there’s a Lathamesque resignation in the ultimatum given here (though without the vitriol, of course). Perhaps it’s just a selfish demand, but judging by the passion with which the blog is run, it seems a bit pessimistic to be throwing the towel in already. Surely this project is worthwhile enough for some further attempts at reform…
Actually the tone of discussions has lifted considerably from what I have read this morning. People are still disagreeing, but being polite about it and actually debating each others points, which hasn’t happened for a while. Got to be a vote for keeping the place going.
Maybe LP is/was too political. The best times at Troppo were when we all put aside our political differences for a while and talked about books and music. I thought so, anyway. With politics, of necessity, there is so little common ground.
Also, on the subject of RWDBs, it’s not just we that are tedious and predictable (I admit we are sometimes). I’ve found the relentless Howard-bashing here at LP a bit wearying at times.
I’d recommend adopting a character-recognition based spam filter, which would lift much of the moderation workload.
Also, since only a few right-thinking people are actually required to counter the erroneous thinking on this blog, excess RWDBs should be funneled to the Political Animal forum, which is overrun by lefties. This would benefit both sites.
Hmmn. I understand your impulse Mark — I’ve taken a break from the political blogging and commenting here and ‘retreated’ to my own place to waffle about nothing for much the same reasons.
Lately, I felt a lot of my energy at LP was being drained by pointless, repetitive conversations and that my own contributions were pretty empty of any interesting content. Sometimes I don’t really feel like spending hours defending myself against baseless attacks, or composing posts that will draw a predictable (feminazi!) level of response.
But.
I could just be very tired from working 12 hour days and travelling for work and having a career crisis and my partner being away for weeks on end and not having enough money to do anything blah blah blah.
I would really miss LP if you decided it was time to retire. Even when I don’t comment much or contribute I do read every day and I thank the stars for such intelligent left-wing discourse on a variety of subjects.
I would also second a commenter registration system.
fyodor, if at your best you are funny and you humour needs intellectual depth it means just the oposite that you said.
sometimes it is damned hard to give people a compliment!!!!
Mark,
I xth the suggestion to add a character-recognition based spam filter. Only a little more work for the commenter, but hopefully a lot less work for you.
Erm…thanks. I think.
When I look to read a blog at some silly time of day, LP is typically the first one I would browse to, due to the high likelihood of new and/or interesting stuff being there. As a result I would be fairly sad to see it go. I try to stay out of the sparring between the usual suspects because I don’t really think I can add anything worthwhile.
As far as the admin thing goes, yes it is a bit of a pain. I have turned off comments on posts older than a week at wsacaucus.org to prevent spam, and that seems to more or less do the job.
I think the Saturday Salon threads have tended to be the more abusive ones of late. Maybe the vitriolic among us just need a bit more direction?
haha
It would be sad to see this go. I hope, Mark, you weren’t too annoyed by that little thing going between me and Nabakov and my personas on the Jack Strocchi is wet thread. I found that just an opportunity for some light-hearted Internet bonding/intellectual wordplay. That’s the great thing about this forum - it’s got space for the serious and ponderous as well as the flirtatious and whimsical. And sadly my own blog is down for the moment too so I don’t have enough fun places to visit …
It’s your money and time at the end of the day but one consideration is that having a group blog means you’ve got lots of potential little helpers …
Well Mark, FWIW, you know I, and many others would miss LP a lot.
Even so, I can only imagine what a time drain it is, especially as you prepare to submit the thesis.
Perhaps sub-contract completely until thesis deceasis; and then review? Just a thought.
LE
I’m with Kate as sometimes with work and life blogging and/or commenting take a back seat. But I do agree that some of commenting has been a revolving series of petty, predictable comments.
It is not about whether someone disagrees but that manner in which disagreement is expressed. This leaves the thoughtful commentators (irregardless of political leanings) with little desire to participate. On many of the LP threads there have been some great stoushes that were informative and interesting without resorting to nastiness.
Also the best LP posts and comments for me are the political wordy ones (though I do enjoy the flirty, personal ones as well). And I would miss that especially in light of IR reform and other political stoushes on the horizon.
Of course, the best course of action is for ourselves (those who enjoy LP) is to ensure that our comments don’t detract from the atmosphere and to basically ignore the trolls. They only stay around if you feed them. Make ‘em starve.
For my part in any degradation here I sincerely apologise—to you, Mark, and to the audience, both of active commenters and of invisible readers.
Stoushing, like drinking, is a wonderful joyful exercise, which left unchecked ends up in nasty, distasteful places, leaving in its wake nausea, remorse, baffling stains and a headache. Sometimes you’ve got to just apologise to the host of the party at which you made a dickhead of yourself.
Sorry, Mark. Sorry, everyone.
I’d be sad to see LP disappear, and I promise to lay off the angry juice.
I should add also a strong denunciation of this idea, Mark:
Never.
Wot Liam sed.
Plus this blog makes me feel smarter just by reading it.
I’ve found that the combination of the Bad Behavior and Spam Karma 2 plugins stops spam. I’ve had one spam get through in the past 3 months (out of thousands of attempts).
Teresa Nielsen Hayden’s ideas on moderating online discussion are well worth reading. You have to be willing to delete, disemvowel and ban commenters who drive away the commenters that you want to read. One of the unfortunate consequences of Andrea Harris’ habit of banning anyone who disagrees with her is that bloggers are too reluctant to ban abusive commenters.
I wish this blog would make me smart.
i am maxwell smart!
Red Peter’s 10.14am comment rocks.
Since this thread is broadening out to include the general subjects of blogging, manners, good and bad ways of disagreeing, and the days when you wonder if it’s all worth it (although that perhaps doesn’t quite address Mark’s problem in a practical way), I wonder what other people here make of the proposition that despite individual differences, quite deep ones at times, the fact that we’re all here bothering to have it out at all is the overarching “bond”, as somebody put it elsewhere recently:
This cheered me up immensely when I read it (at a blog with much worse ongoing comment infighting issues than this one appears to have).
On the other hand, last week I had the horrible experience of being harshly criticised in a national newspaper and lumped into the same undifferentiated category of philistine bloggers as one of the frightening commenters at Tim Blair’s. So maybe it’s true what John Doyle said last night and blogging really is a sort of uncivilised vandalism.
Disemvowelling trolls seems only to make them angrier - that’s what happened to the one John Holbo posted about on Crooked Timber not long ago. Not that arguing is in the same category as posting racial abuse and death threats….
I read the articles, then skim the comments; i usually give up after the fist five or so as they are predictable left-wing discussions of issues responded to by right-wing attacks on the character/morals/motives of the left-wing posters (and left in general).
Why not just close the comments? Registered comments would stop the spam but probably not the paid right-wing commenters, and a slashdot style moderating system would have to be manually balanced to over-ride them.
“Perhaps sub-contract completely until thesis deceasis; and then review? Just a thought.”
Any chance of sub-contracting the thesis so that you can apply your talent to this blog?
Ha, I was reading down the thread thinking that it was really unfair to bring this topic up when Naomi was cloistered away fud-wrangling, but I should have known that she’d keep a sly eye on us! Glad you did.
Sounds like regulars and lurkers do need a wake-up call every now and again just to bring the tone back to a decent level, but who knows how long that will last? Anyway, I’m on the Mindy/Laura/El team, with a big smattering of Kate — I need this blog to keep my brain alert! I have been finding some of the late night boy-battles a bit tough lately, but there’s always plenty of other things to read. Sorry that it’s been a hard slog for you, though, Mark.
Damn, I wish I knew who was paying right-wingers to comment. They owe me a lot of back pay.
I find Laura’s comments very troll.
With those comment threads that descended into pure insult, I think you need to cross the censorship barrier and delete ruthlessly.
But you also need to warn, and if necessary delete, from lefty material. Sorry to name names here cs, but you do have a bit of a record for not tolerating dissent, either through going personal over topics as mundane as some folk singer, or else in the ‘positive discrimination’ thread where your threat to delete EP was simply unjustified.
I’m a lefty and I’m largely over positive discrimination, cheers.
THe line should be when things go personal. We should all be able to say bush/beazley/etc is a wanker without difficulty, but we don’t need to add ‘and you’re a &*%*& for liking him.’
Phil GOmes, sorry you feel that way about anonymity. You mustn’t work in a job where having people threaten to contact your employers and get you sacked is an issue. Can I suggest making your way to a grog blog and meeting some of the personalities behind the nicknames in person?
Mark,
I don’t expect you to keep LP going as a public service to the rest of us, but it is really, really appreciated.
Living in ‘Dullsville’ (Perth) with surely the world’s worst newspaper, and given what the ABC News and 7.30 Report has come to, I’d just about given up thinking about politics. But recently I came across LP and Catallaxy, and find that there are lots of ideas and different points of view, links to interesting information …… and current affairs is interesting again ! Please keep LP going if you can, there’s nothing else quite like it.
Mark - I’d be sorry to see LP go. But as I argued earlier this year I think that perhaps you should blog less and pursue traditional publishing forums more. Perhaps if you went to a group blog where you were not resposible for its day-to-day maintenance, but could still post as it suited you?
Mark. Just wanted to comment and say that, as a good lefty, I love LP. In fact it’s probably my favorite blog.
The issues are interesting and the positions presented are so much more valuable than those you find anywhere in the mainstream press.
Please keep going. But more importantly, please find a way for you to be able to enjoy doing this as well.
Keep it.
Please.
cs, but you do have a bit of a record for not tolerating dissent, either through going personal over topics as mundane as some folk singer ….
Huh? I ran a blog for a year, including through an Australian and American election, and only ever deleted a half-a-dozen comments, and there was mass (but civilised) dissent on virtually every thread. As for “some folk singer”, well, I can’t help it if you’re completely wrong Amaniac (that’s a joke, I feel obliged to point out, seeing you missed it the first time.)
Oh, and like Jason, I apologise if anyone (including Jack) took the thread on Australian wetness the wrong way. I mean, there was a serious point about the prejudicial and discretionary nature of the wet/dry terms, but hooking it around Jack was intended to be light hearted, not nasty.
CS you have been taking andrea harris pills here sometimes.
lighten up and listen to some decent music
I know what you are referring to Homer, and still believe it entirely justified in principle, if poorly executed in retrospect.
I’ve been a bit absent lately, what with life and all, and also a bit turned off by most of the boy battles. (My) life is too short to ever read another comment by Jack Strocchi for instance, but I don’t read ‘em, I just skip to the next comment. Doesn’t stuff up my day or anything, but does make me less likely to participate.
LP has been absolutely delightful, but nothing is ever fixed in stone. (Except, perhaps, other bits of stone or maybe fossils.) I would be very sad to see LP go, and think that registering as a commentor is a good idea. I think your usual exhortations to encourage new commenters would be a useful counterweight to encourage lurkers and the shy.
And delete whoever the hell you feel like, for whatever reason you choose. It’s your joint.
THe thrust of both of those examples, in terms of where you appeared to be coming from, was less anything too personal and more:
‘you’re not saying what I wanted to hear here, so you’re not wanted.’
I don’t see the point of posting about bob dylan on a leftwing political blog if you don’t want to hear about what an awful and disheartening sellout he’s been. It doesn’t take from his good songs, it just completes the picture.
Btw gave this some more thought the other day and Bono is definitely the better lyricist. And, igwos, a far better vocalist. Hell, I digressed, sorry, back as you all were…
I think it would be sad to see LP go. I have never used WP but if it is not really designed for multiple authors, site administrators, you may want to look at using something like Drupal to run the site.
I fear that every blogger must go through the dark night of the blogging soul when it all seems a bit pointless but I think that LP has achieved a standard of excellence and reader loyalty that’s pretty exceptional in comparative terms. It’s one of a handful of Australian blogs that regularly get to the heart of things in an engaging and interesting way.
It’s become essential. At it’s best, it’s reminiscent of Ken Parish in his heyday - and Troppo’s career bears eloquent testament to the ebb and flow of the ’sphere.
Mark, my advice is to do it while you enjoy it and then don’t. If threads get too incandescent, can them and move on. If people persistently offend with their sad little bitchslaps, zap them with an IP eradicating lasergun. Take plenty of exercise, drink plenty of fluids and take a multivitamin daily….
This is an unusually good-humoured place to hangout and added bonus! Quite a few on-to-it people mill around in it’s milieu. And there’s Homer who can tell a pentecostal from an evangelical at 50 paces in a blackout and pun execrably about it. What would happen to him?
It’s crazy, it’s entertaining, it’s familiar and it wouldn’t be at all the same if LP wasn’t here.
I don’t see the point of posting about bob dylan on a leftwing political blog if you don’t want to hear about what an awful and disheartening sellout he’s been.
Jeebus. We heard about it Armaniac. Over and over and over again we heard about it. I fully expect the last thing I ever hear, lying on my death bed will be someone whinging about just this. We even talked about it at the time, as I recall. We came up with evidence for our views and you … didn’t.
Move on, mate.
BTW. Have you actually listened to, oh say, Blood on the Tracks yet? Seen No Direction Home? Demonstrated any interest whatsoever in the man or his music other than to bag him for not being you?
(Sorry to derail Mark, but you’ve had quite enough sucking up today)
I love the bloggers who go through the dark night of the soul and then stick around. One of my favourite blogs in the world has just turned five. Incredible content everyday - an inspiration.
The loss of LP now would be huge. Just like BP - this is the place where you check into to see what’s going on.
I guess there is a point when such a going concern does become burdensome, something one can only imagine in the quiet backwaters of ozblogdom.
Hope the spam-troll issues can be solved technically, and hope the joy of running one of the best can return.
Speaks for itself:
“We’ve moved on! Oh, and you’re wrong, and have you heard etc etc”
Yeah I was being silly though, it’s not the issue here.
Inability to brook dissent and ott personal attacks ARE the subject of this discussion though.
It was probably unfair to single out these examples, which affected me but which also unfairly picked on cs, he’s not the only one.
My point in generic terms is:
-there’s nothing wrong with canning personal attacks, or with censoring, but it helps to impose some consistency-
what Amanda said.
What Geoff said.
Also, without taking away from the main thrust of Mark’s post, I feel bound to say that the post he has linked to as an example of “sour and dour” is one of mine, and one which I actually found quite extraordinary, very stimulating and a lot of fun (apart from the maddie intervention toward the end by D, but nothing could be more easily ignored). It was a one line post that generated over 150 comments, and both John Humphrey and Joe Cambria were good debating partners/opponents, John in particular being a model of politeness, albeit incredibly stubborn politeness (I’d never be like that, of course).
Does this blog have a future? Yes.
What you are calling “inability to brook dissent” in this case is what I call “having an opinion.”
There is a world of difference between the stoushing on those Dylan threads and the sort of poison Mark is talking about.
Amanda,
I take it you aint working on Maggies farm no more.
nothing like looking at a bloomfield!!
Mark, I promise never to bait Jack Strocchi again, just don’t close LP down!
What Geoff, CS and Boynton said, not what Amanda, Armaniac and Leinad said, sorta what Vee said and not sure what Jason said about what Amanda said.
Cheer up Mark, it’s just first semester blogging blues. In no time at all you’ll be another calloused soulless veteran flogging opinions and merchandise with the best of them. No, no need to thank me. Always happy to help another human being with a few kind words and some dangerously misleading advice.
I know what you need right now. Road trip!
And have you already started turning off the gravatars to save power?
On a more considered note: in my own brief experience, forums and blogs can go through phases where debates and personalities can clash and become poisionous and tiresome. Sometimes they become more than phases and can drag the community into extinction. I don’t have any hard and fast observations that go across all cases save the general rule that when people stop and think, calm down and let go of a few grudges the result can be impressive; introspection, conciliation and a big weight off everyone’s shoulders
It’s the internet, people! Mark’s post is a good reminder to all of us: blog discussions are flat out not worth getting bitter and vexed over, and if people are getting to that stage they should bury the hatchet or they’ll take the whole thing down with them.
Bad puns, flirting, good-natured stoushing, red wine* - these are the things that make LP an essential read. I’d hate to see it go.
* either to inspire the posts,
else fuel the comments.
Or possibly both
Yes, perhaps a new side-blog could be reserved for the more offensive, ad-hominem and personal blog-stoushers.
Something like eg
“Spleen: Blogging the recrudesence of primitive hatreds”
On Chris’ comment, perhaps that thread was ill chosen as an example - though I did think that towards the start it was a bit sour and dour on one side. I certainly acknowledge that its tone took a turn for the better, and take the point.
I should also note that I am tremendously proud that Chris blogs here, and long may he continue to do so.