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I must say, it is wonderful to see that Michelle Leslie was prepared to fib and bribe her way out of trouble, as has now been established by the Fairfax press. If you are not prepared to behave with ruthless amorality when in trouble abroad, it can only be to your own detriment. Barefaced lies, brown paper bags, and pretend conversions are the order of the day, and I congratulate Ms Leslie for her cold-hearted, hard-headed realism. Only an idiot would prioritise the truth over self-preservation, and Ms Leslie’s behaviour is an example to all would-be travellers.
Another thing – I can’t be bothered reading up on it, but do you know if there is a Constitutional obligation that federal ministers be drawn from the ranks of parliament?
Hello everyone,
This last week has been quite eventful for me. Most importantly, I submitted my final, hardbound, completely corrected PhD thesis to the Faculty of Science at the University of Sydney, and now just have to wait until my graduation in April/May. Hooray! If anyone is interested in reading a PhD thesis in pure mathematics (in algebra and its applications to topology), click on this link
http://www.maths.usyd.edu.au/u/PG/theses.html
A second thing that happened was that I won a computer from work a week ago (my first ever computer) – and we now have the internet at home – so I can log onto LP on the weekends! I can become a 24hr blogger, not just a 9-5 weekdays blogger. I also bought Simcity (ok – I’ve always liked it from its first incarnation).
Steve,
There isn’t a requirement for Federal Ministers to be members of either house – although they have to become a member of the House of Reps or Senate within 3 months of their appointment. You could just have rolling appointments…
When Michelle Leslie said that her family mortgaged their home and used all their savings to get her free, what did they use the money to do?
Why does Michelle Leslie wear so much black – and in low summer as well?
From the comments here and elsewhere, it appears that Michelle Leslie’s real crime wasn’t taking two eccies in Bali – it was having the gall to successfully navigate the corrupt Indonesian court system.
How dare she refuse to be a victim!
I aint got no fancy schoolin like most LP contributors, so I was wondering if I could adopt an honorary qualification? I was thinking BA (procrastination), or perhaps a BS (RWDB polemic navigation)
“How dare she refuse to be a victim!”
You must be joking. She’s portrayed herself as nothing but a victim. You’ll maybe have to excuse a degree of cynicism here but I prefer my news to be analysed through a more rigorous matrix than that available via “New Idea.”
Sacha, a Phd in pure maths.
That figures. You must eat take-aways!
I can’t add anything else So I will sum up.
you must like divisions in parliament!
Geoff: you must be joking. She’s barely had a chance to portray herself as anything; the mob started howling pretty much straight away.
Fairfax and the ABC are hardly “the mob” Bill.
Nothing wrong with telling blatant lies in the cause of personal preservation. Hats off to her!
Ah, Mr Edwards.
How was your flight? Now, just step into this room, Mr Edwards.
Well I’m glad she’s not imprisoned any longer because I wouldn’t like to be an Indonesian prison myself… but I really couldn’t care less about her story, her non-conversion to Islam, or whether she bribed her way out of prison or not.
I especially don’t care that she is a model.
Well done Sacha, by the way.
how come there are no comments in the Currency Lad’s blog?
has ASIO caught up with him or has Ruddock deported him?
fix it up CL!!!!
Also, I’d like to make a comment about fair and open exchange in the Internet. I’ve noticed a lot of commentors on LP complain that we don’t give their views weight or equal time or a fair hearing or whatever.
Some *cough cough* have even used the word censorship, which I find rather hilarious in the context.
Well, I’d like to point out that this blog isn’t a public forum. It’s actually a private website paid for and operated by a group of people who hold certain views.
For anyone who has trouble with this idea, I’d like to steal a metaphor used eslewhere. Blogs are like houses in a neighbourhood, right?
Now LP is a big house which is essentially one big dinner party, and Mark has very kindly extended a permanent invitation to a few of us — pending say, vomiting and not cleaning it up or whatever — and an open invitation to a larger group. In fact, Mark has thrown open the door and said “come in guys, but don’t make a mess!”
Now, if I came into Mark’s house and carried on like a knob, it’d be entirely up to Mark and his pals to decide what to do with me. If I piss in a potplant and grope his best mate, I’m going to get my arse tossed into the street.
So what makes people think a blog is any different?
Seriously, I’m very stumped about the attitude which says “you MUST give me a forum to say what I want”.
Um, no, if you something we disagree with, we’re under no obligation to provide you with a forum, just as we’re under no obligation to let you come into our houses and piss in our pot plants and kick our pets.
And you know, we don’t actually have to explain why either.
For the most part, Mark and his pals are really nice people who try to engage with others and have earnest conversations about stuff we think is important. Not because we’re self-important blowhards (that’s just me, actually) but because we care about things.
But that doesn’t mean we’ve got an obligation to let people say things we think are offensive.
And it also means we’ll tolerate behaviour others might think is offensive, and we don’t care. If we happen to think pal Bob’s habit of doing rude imitations of the nextdoor neighbour is funny, and the nextdoor neighbour doesn’t, it’s really not his call. It’s our call, because Bob is our friend and his imitations of the nextdoor neighbour are really funny. The nextdoor neighbour can go and have his own party where they all do imitations of Bob instead.
See, if I were to try and stop someone from commenting on the Internet or having their own blog or going to other sites, THAT would be censorship. But stopping someone from writing graffiti on my living room wall? That’s just looking after my place, and trying to keep it nice.
Rant over now.
I am about to go to my brothers 18th birthday party. He asked me to organise music, which is fair enough. I thought “hang on, I don’t know what you chumps listen to, it’s 7 years since I was in high school”. I have since found out that that his friends listen to exactly the same slightly alternative music that we listened to… which reaffirms to me that most mainstream music from the last few years has been crap.
Nothing valuable to contribute to the actual discusson. News.com.au always had a link to piccies of Michelle Leslie. I wish I knew how many people clicked on them – did more people read the articles or look at the pictures? Is the moral of the story that one should make sure they are good looking before doing eccies in Bali?
By the way, I’m not speaking for anyone else at LP. Those are just my own thoughts on the nature of blogging. I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, just needed to get it off my chest.
Kate just when did you become Andrea Harris?
Congratulations Sacha!!! I’m incredibly envious being only two years in.
Kate, I completely understand your position, I would only comment that perhaps a blog looks like a free-for-all site and removing comments or preventing posts, unless done with explicit commentary, seems like sweeping unwanted views under the carpet. But it’s good to have a behind-the-scenes perspective on blogging. And I love reading LP so keep it up!!!
Sasha, congrats.
You must be counting down the days to your graduation ceremony. Do you get to wear that ceremonial gown with the Godel? You have to fill us in on the Gauss in your community.
Mathematicians have an integral function to perform in society.
Sacha – YAY!
So…….if it’s supposed to be kind of like “The Panel” Kate (only smarter, obviously) – where a group of like-minded people sit around affirming each other – why don’t you make it membership only and then you won’t get totally ‘wrong’ people coming along and just assuming it’s kind of OK to express any old view? Or alternatively, you could turn off comments and have an affirmation lifetime guarantee.
BTW, at the moment it is a public forum inasmuch as anyone with a PC can interact with the site – on the apparently mistaken impression that they’re encouraged to do so.
Uncivil or discourteous exchanges are always to be deplored and it’s generally accepted that the site owner has an absolute right to excise them as appropriate, but you sound, scarily, like some North Shore matron deploring the wrong demographic renting the place next door.
Geoff and Homer – I disagree. There’s no problem whatever with different views, and they’re absolutely encouraged. What is unacceptable is persistently abusive comments and comments designed to derail threads. There comes a point where repeated warnings and deletions really have to be followed up with firmer action. There are lots of blogs out there. EP has a blog. If he wants to abuse people, he can do so there to his heart’s content.
Only one person has been asked to leave the dinner party, and that was after dozens of complaints and repeated warnings. Other people who share his views (and hang around in the comments threads on his blog) are still here, and are more than welcome. The decision to exclude him was not made because of his views, but because of his continual trolling behaviour.
I must confess I’m not sure what your point is, though, Geoff. You say it’s undeniable that a blogger has the right to exclude trolls, but you don’t like… what, that Kate used an analogy to describe why we were forced to exercise that right?
“Her middle name was welcome.
His was wipe.
(they were) Scum.”
Nick Cave
I dont know, but I just like that one. Dylanesque don’t you think?
Presumably there’s some specific incident at issue here? It’s not immediately obvious from the context of this thread.
Yay, Sacha, fanTAStic!
Oh wait. I’ve just read the White Ribbon Day thread. So….you booted Nabs for saying he hated Japanese Story? You should have made that clear, Kate.
I should get out to more dinner parties. ……..
Congrats Sacha. Not only on the fact that its a PhD and all but that it is one in pure maths. Just reading the title, gives me a headache!
Troy: She wears black because it is the slimming colour. Not that she needs to!
What interests/annoys me the most about the Leslie stuff is bloody Howard commenting on it – it ranks up there with his stupid comments about the cricket or ‘mainstream’ sports – and what exactly does this have to do with you being Prime Minister?
What I think is pretty absurd is that she can’t talk because she will be responsible to what happens to the others. What a load of crap – she won’t be responsible because she isn’t associated with them.
“Um, no, if you something we disagree with, we‚Äôre under no obligation to provide you with a forum, just as we‚Äôre under no obligation to let you come into our houses and piss in our pot plants and kick our pets.
And you know, we don‚Äôt actually have to explain why either. ”
So those who do not agree with the host(s) are here on sufferance, since its a dinner party, and disagreement is equated with pissing in the pot plants.
Why not just turn off the comments, then, and expand the ‘private’ blogger pool so you can continue your conversation undisturbed, nodding your heads at each other in vigorous mutual agreement?
Well, Rob, if that’s how you want to (mis)read it.
I would have thought it was up to the hosts what constituted unacceptable behaviour, no? If you’re at a party where pissing in the potplants is the done thing, that’s cool yes?
And if you’d like to believe I can’t tolerate disagreement, you go right ahead, but I think the facts speak for themselves.
Just one point, if you permit me to make it. Obviously there is a distinction between “offensive” behaviour and simply expressing an opinion that the “hosts” dont agree with, correct?
If both are seen to be one and the same, then there is honestly no point in having a blog at all, as it will simply turn into a backslapping area like some *other* blogs, or rehash old ground over and over.
I would hate to see this become the case here, but I have noticed some sentiments that could lead to that kind of thinking, which would be a great shame.
Moving on, here’s some stoush bait someone might like to do a post on or just thrash out here (Kim, Kate, etc im looking at you)
News Ltd
Also, I’d like to ask you Rob, why you think blogger should allow their comments to be open to all comers?
I mean, isn’t a guest always at the sufferance of the host? If not, why not?
Oh and yes, I’m just like Andrea Harris — I delete ANYONE who disagrees with me, willy-nilly. I never admit I’m wrong, and I’m closed minded too. I don’t ask questions, I just pontificate. I never admit ambivalence or doubt, I assume I’m always right, and I totally know everything about, uh, everything.
If that’s the general attitudeship of the LP readership I think it’s safe to say I’ll never blog again, and you can all be free of my tyrrany forever.
By all comers, I mean even abusive ones who want nothing more than to tear that blogger into tiny pieces and possibly even make her cry.
Also, Nic, that’s a good point and one I should have been more clear about. There’s disagreement and then there’s offensive behaviour.
That was my point about pissing in the potplants.
Anyway Rob, you disagree with me all the time… so what’s your point again?
Nic’s distinction is a good one.
Jack Strocchi can at times be the epitome of pomposity and some of monologues could put someone on 100% speed to sleep, and he disagree with almost everyone on the posts he has commented on, but no one could accuse him of commenting in bad faith
Jason, I think you make a good point about good faith.
Anyway, I’m bored with myself now. How about a joke?
A horse walked into a bar. The barkeep said, “why the long face?”
*crickets*
Where to draw the line is the question, I think. Perhaps we need to solidify that distinction so there is minimal ambiguity about what is acceptable and what is not, and crack down on personal attacks, trolling and such like.
I too think the point about good faith is an excellent one.
I don’t disagree with you all the time, Kate, only when I don’t agree with you, which isn’t that often. But I did disagree – I hope civilly – with your comment.
Everyone on blogs gets taken down. Happens to me, happens to EP, happens to everyone. Blogs are not usually private conversations. Some bloggers don’t enable comments. Norm Geras doesn’t, and still I think his is the prince of blogs. If you open it to comments, especially on difficult issues like male-on-female violence, you surely have to accept that other people will be drawn in and not all of them are going to agree with you. Some will violently disagree. That’s healthy, that’s good.
See, I reckon what happens with posts like your rape post and Robert’s on ribbon-wearing males is that you start off with what seems like a simple and uncontrovertible statement about ‘X’. Then people chip in with personal experiences and observations and opinions and alternative explanations and suddenly it’s not so simple, and it doesn’t all tell in the same direction. Human behaviours and psychologies don’t fall readily into a network of ideological prescriptions in the real world, whatever the academics might think. We’re *complicated*, as Douglas Adams might have said. (Maybe he did.)
On abusive posts, I think you are quite entitled to delete them, but it’s good policy to say why, not just ‘disappear’ them, or ban the commenters. By the same token, commenters might reasonably request the deletion of comments that are abusive of them. Evil had a point on the other post. No-one holds back on the personal abuse when they want to get stuck into him.
Rob: hall monitor of the Internets.
Ok, what’s been going on? I’ve been working in East Timor for the last two weeks, and have lost track of the current LEFT agenda of unOstrayan evilness.
So, comrades, what’s the line? (remember that being said in half seriousness, Mark? Many moons ago…..)
Personally, Im very distressed about the the upcoming barbaric murder in Singapore. My view is we threaten boycotts of Singapore Airlines and Optus by mass email.
Howard’s been a complete weakling on this. The man has no spine.
Incidentally, I finally read Latho’s book-length rant, and now have a slightly modified view. Extract the considerable spleen and bile and you at least have a useful critique of the baby-boomer stranglehold on Australian politics and culture. Part of his problem that he was a a 43 yo who threatened the demographically dominant boomer brigade. You see their pernicious, chair-hogging influence in every goddamn field. They vote for Howard because they remain forever young & relevant while he (a pre-boomer) remains in charge. Its true of every field, but I note academia in particular: so many of my friends, now mid thirties, and many talented, cant get a decent job in academia for love or money. The retirement age just goes up and up with Howard’s age. Sitting around , hogging the chairs, forever.
I don’t think you can liken a blog with the commenting facility turned on to a dinner party in a private home. It’s more like a picnic in a public park.
“Um, no, if you something we disagree with, we‚Äôre under no obligation to provide you with a forum, just as we‚Äôre under no obligation to let you come into our houses and piss in our pot plants and kick our pets.
And you know, we don‚Äôt actually have to explain why either.”
Can we assume from this Kate that you take a similar view on the more global level of immigration? We decide who comes here and who doesn’t and no correspondence will be entered into. So long Mr Jovovic, etc.
Or perhaps it’s a case of act locally, acquiesce internationally, a sort of feelgood NIMBY view of the world?
I too have returned after a week’s absence and I must say the tone of the place is appalling.
Calling the young and young at heart… it’s time to Band Together.
The post-usenet websites tried to establish user moderation to reign in the worst offenders, trolls, flamers, etc. The lesson from the likes of k5 was that strong editorial control is needed to ensure that the community doesnt flee from a couple of disruptive individuals.
People can act all precious about it, claiming hypocrisy, but it is a fact of internet life at our present stange of community development and technology.
I’d say, Observa, that you draw a veeeeeerrry long bow there but good on you for trying to bring the issue around to your favourite pet subject!
As it happens I’m not sure being a drug-addicted fool with a larceny habit is a horrible enough offense to warrant being booted off the island (considering we have plenty of drug addicted burglars who get to stick around) so… nope, I don’t agree.
I see my attempt at levity went down like a lead balloon. Oh well. I’ve said all I think I can on the subject so I’m going to retire to my estate and pen lengthy reflections on something we can all agree with, like why the Bert Newton cabbage patch doll is wrong.
Regardless of one’s views on comment moderation, or political affiliation, I hope everyone who’d like to keep coming to the party (or picnic) has donated some dosh to the “keep LP afloat” fund.
The NYT imes Arts section reports:
The threat of legal action from the government of Kazakhstan has not deterred the British comedian Sacha Baron Cohen from ridiculing that Central Asian country. Mr. Baron Cohen provoked the anger of Kazakhstan’s foreign ministry last week after serving as the host of an MTV Europe awards show in character as Borat Sagdiyev, a boorish Kazakh television correspondent who portrays the country as a backward place where women are fifth in the natural pecking order, below horses and dogs. In a video response posted late Wednesday to his Web site for the character, http://www.borat.kz, Mr. Baron Cohen, appearing as Borat, teased that “Kazakhstan is as civilized as any other country in the world. Women can now travel on inside of bus, homosexuals no longer have to wear blue hats and age of consent has been raised to 8 years old.” Representatives at the Kazakh Embassy in Washington could not be reached for comment.
The official complaint was:
Hear IS wat Thay Say:
“We do not rule out that Mr. Cohen is serving someone’s political order designed to present Kazakhstan and its people in a derogatory way. We reserve the right to any legal action to prevent new pranks of the kind. We view Mr. Cohen’s behaviour at the MTV Europe Music Awards as utterly unacceptable, being a concoction of bad taste and ill manners which is completely incompatible with ethics and civilized behaviour.”-Yerzhan Ashykbayev, Kazakh Foreign Ministry Spokesman
Borat’s Repsonse:
The Government ought to sue the pants off the Jew.
This is too funny to believe. But it’s true.
“We shoot a dog and have a party”. Brilliant.
Dunno about the veeeery long bow there Kate. Some might say you were coming across a little bit Philip Adamish. You know- We’re all just one big people of the world unless you happen to want to use my back lane. Me, I’m cool with the private/group property rights thingy, so I don’t see too much inconsistency here.
Thanks everyone, the PhD was a long hard haul!
Just one thing I have to say is that it is important to be civil in the discussions on this blog – sometimes, this might not happen.
One other thing is that my work is paying for me to go to Hobart for a mathematical physics conference (on quantum field theory) on Tuesday – hooray for my company – and I’m staying there ’till Sunday – and so I have to do my slides for the talk. Aaaarrrgghhh! But that’s how things go. I could have done the slides earlier, but the last 7 weeks were tied up with final edits to the thesis and submitting it, and only now can I think about the talk. The key things to remember are to just give the few main points…
Have a good night everyone.
Kate,
actually the openness on this blog is admirable. There’s a lot of disagreement, a few frequently entertaining OTT stoushes, but the majority of the time the arguments are relatively civil and where people overstep the mark there’s occasionally an apology.
Rob, CL, EP, and Observa are probably the four most frequently-appearing commenters here who have a world-view* which is in opposition to a number of the opinions of the LP posters. In many cases the disagreement is a matter of mere degree which, thanks to the anonymity of the internet and the way in which comments can be misinterpreted (and which are often typed in haste), can blow up into a stoush where one is not necessary.
(*And I should add, the respective world-views of those four are themselves different, as well)
Sometimes the disagreement is more fundamental. EP on women/feminism, for example, or Observa on immigration or homosexuality. For what it’s worth, I think their views on each are a long way into the tail of the distribution, regardless of the context. But when the majority of the readers here are leftish, centrist, liberal, centrist right, libertarian, or a combination of the above, then unsurprisingly such long-tailed views (I was going to say “extreme views”, but that sounded perjorative) are met with a fierce stoush, and the antagonist in either case may feel that the LP majority is crushing dissent.
Without knowing exactly what goes on behind the admin veil, it seems to me that the deleting of comments or the banning of IP addresses is a very rare thing here. The comparision to Andrea Harris is entirely unfair.
Jack Strocchi, who wages a contrarian campaign of his own, is in a different category (IMHO) to the four above. And I don’t mean that in a good or a bad way, it just seems that stoushes involving Jack are slightly different. I think his contributions are long and a bit laboured but they are link-rich and show a wide reading of secondary sources – and a good Fyodor-Jack stoush is always worth the price of admission. (Reminds me, I must remember to put some cash in the LP kitty, otherwise that last statement doesn’t amount to much).
Anyway, Kate (and I’m not flirting, for a change), I think you people do a very good job here – it strikes me that LP has the balance about right between encouraging openness in debate (most of the time) and deleting vexatious and offensive views when it all gets a bit too much (ie, not very often at all).
Apologies for such a long comment. Back to 17 syllables for me after this.
Imagine getting sacked because you got your pitcher took! Time for cs and co to make themselves useful, stop hanging about the place and start marching in the streets for unfair dismissal or age discrimination or something. Still, perhaps the old slacker’s productivity was slipping a bit, or maybe a big drop in customers through the door. Consumers really are a fickle lot these days.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17382941-23109,00.html
You get the feeling right now, cs is coming across all sympatico for the bosses perspective on unfair dismissal here.
So is EP permanently banned from this site, or just the ‘Say NO’ thread, or what?
The comments policy is very clear:
Only one person has ever been IP banned from this site. This was after repeated warnings over a long period of time, including private emails. People can either abide by the comments policy or not. Endless discussions of it are pointless. No correspondence will be entered into regarding such decisions.
There have been 39534 comments posted on this blog over 9 months. The overwhelming majority have been good natured. The standards have been specified, and people who sail close to the wind have been given a lot of leeway. Further discussion is boring and unproductive.
End of story.
So that’s a yes and yes and a big YES to my questions, I guess.
Sorry for entering into correspondence regarding such decisions.
Vale, Evil. This site will be the poorer for your absence.
Maybe we should do a democracy thing here in spite of the comments policy, and ask for a show of hands: who among you thinks Evil ought to be banned from LP?
And who’s going to be next? Thanks to haiku (thanks, haiku) I can see three other candidates.
For whom the bell tolls, and all of that.
The Cocteau Twins are unduly neglected.
And the early to mid 90s is a neglected period in the history of pop music.
In other news, former Iraq PM Allawi reckons that the post Saddam Iraq is in danger of having a worse human rights record than his regime.
Banning: when liberals become Liberals.
Just out of interest, for any like me who’ve been away from LP for a while….. what did the Evil Puddytat do?
LE, for all the boring gory details, the 300 comment monster should be enough, but also ‘Rape in the Third World’ and ‘Say NO to violence against women’ – essentially people finally got sick of his narrow-minded, disingenuous, trolling. On an issue were tensions were already running high and tempers flaring, he did his usual schtick and poured crude on the fire while all the while moaning “who me? I’m the real victim here!”. Good riddance.
EP wrote:
I regard that as an admission of trolling and a vindication of the LP collective’s decision. If you disagree, you’re welcome to join Evil Pundit at his own blog.
I, for the record
Don’t think EP should be banned
Question answered, Rob?
In fact, to the point,
I was praising your comments
They give good flavour
So, let EP back
With yet another warning:
Don’t be quite so rude
See, Rob, your comments
Are often thought provoking
And civil as well
Anyway, enough
From me, back to the debate
This is quite hard work …
I thought the Kath and Kim movie didn’t hold a candle to the TV series, but then, I did only catch the last half. It seemed a bit soggy and saggy.
Has Kath and Kim jumped the shark?
Kim, I dunno about the Cocteau Twins, I shall have to rediscover them.
A million warnings
had no effect on EP’s
trolling behaviour;
so the ban won’t end.
His “shock value” derailment
of our threads? No loss.
Dunno about Kath & Kim, but it is clear to me that LP has jumped the shark. Banning EP is the proof of it, I’m sorry to say.
All we need now is for the Chafer to join the Locutus Collective and we’ll know it’s over. Where’s Ken Parish when you need him?
I agree with my dear clode friend Fyodor.
the banning of EP is a move which was quite stupid.
By all means do not allow foul language but bannnig some-one merely because you disagree with them.
You are worse than Andrea Harris. Her excuse is she is not very bright.
What is yours!!!
Et tu, Fyodor?
Get a grip, Homes. He wasn’t banned because people disagreed with him, if that were the case he (and many others) would’ve been booted long ago. Frankly I’m amazed Kate, Mark, Robert etc all put so much effort for so long into engaging with him.
His relentlessly disrespectful, relentlessly trolling and relentlessly agressive behaviour over a ver long period of time got him banned — for which he has only himself to blame. With rights come responsibilities, remember?
I’m a bit undecided on it but its not something I’ve ever had to face and the LP collective have the sole and absolute right to make the decision.
spoken like a true Andrea.
Responsibilites such as?????
Homer
are you sure you don’t have some sort of weird crush on Kommissar Harris? You sure go on about her a lot?
I’m with Fyodor re EP but there is a big difference between Kommissar Harris and LP. Kommissar Harris banned Strocchi who makes more thoughtful although also more narcolepsy inducing comments than EP.
Responsibility to act decently and in good faith. We are all guilty of lapses in that area on occasion but EP is in a different class altogether.
Anyway, whatever the specific merits of the case its absolutely a decision for the owners/operators of the site. If I don’t like it, I’m free to go elsewhere. And yes, I feel the same way about Ms Harris.
Jason, Andrea is the benchmark in this process.
She also banned me
Mandy has put it quite simply.She has determined that EP has acted in bad faith and little resonsibility. Andrea would be proud of you!
*sigh*
If the left side of this blog is to have any relevant say in politics and social change it will need to work out how to negotiate the extreme right contributors without sending them to Siberia for disagreeing, trolling, being obnoxious (without being rude), being different, being aggressively verbally passionate, or being consistent in ther arguments and ideology.
It will also have to work out ways of disagreeing with the policies and methodology of the existing Government without provocatively calling our legally and democratically elected Prime Minister ‘his Darkness’ and other derivatives in their posts, which plainly incite a response from pro-government debaters, and merely encourages a strong or even antagonistic response.
Some subjects chosen on this blog are emotive, so let the wagon roll. Often a strong and valid point comes out of a heated exchange. Creating an exclusive environment demerits debate.
Whatever, Homes. You might be right about Guus, but you’re way off on this one …
you are a guus on this one
Cheers, mate. That’s the nicest thing anyone has said to me all week!
This is pathetic. As Mark and Robert have been at pains to point out EP was banned AFTER repeated warnings. The decision was based on his behaviour over a damn good period of time and in consultation with the LP collectionve. It was not a rash decision because he dared to “disagree.” This has nothing to do with Andrea Harris like behaviour or disliking differing opinions. The LP collective is a patient tolerant lot. And we were so with EP. As he has even admitted that this comments were not in good faith then LP has lost nothing with his abscence.
If you want to blame someone for banning EP blame EP. He was tolerated, was warned repeatedly about the comment policy and still did nothing.
Sigh. The Windies are collapsing again. How depressing.
those warnings were stupid.
Whose next on the list?
CL, fyodor, me?
I would ban CS because of his musical taste or FXH because of his safari suits.
Amanda: how can you bear to watch that rubbish?
Cricket is a waste of a sport.
You underestimate your abilities, Shaun, etc.
EP obviously enjoys the company of bright lefties, and baits them because he wants to extract a response. More often than not, there is a response, and to your credit you handle him pretty well. If you feel that he is baiting for the sake of it, and you don’t like it, the obvious choice is to ignore him, hoping he’ll go away, but I have observed that there is, on many occasions, a challenge issued, even if he hasn’t made a comment, which implies that some people on this blog enjoy his company also in a masochistic sense, or want to debate him, the gauntlet throw down. Could it be that ‘iron sharpens iron’?
it is rusty now
comment deleted by author.
And blunt
Better to do it that way, Kate.
Kate loses her temper, then regains it. Sorry Rob.
Look, sorry Rob but I deleted it because I’m over this whole topic, I’m not doing it to avoid censure, I just can’t be bothered.
Let me try again.
A horse walks into a bar…
No? No?
And Robert, I agree. Cricket is do dull.
So dull, I mean. It appears it’s my brain that’s jumped the shark.
LP Collective, re: cricket. Don’t make me sorry I defended you over that brute dissent crushing thing …
Kate, it’s typical that RWDBs make the action taken in response to persistent behaviour the issue, not the behaviour itself.
As Amanda put it:
And Rob’s being consistent – as in the time when he accused people of dissing C.L. while totally ignoring the fact that C.L. was being (fairly uncharacteristically) rude to commenters.
But, yes, these discussions are as boring as batshit. If speech acts on blogs are so highly prized, you’d think that people might find something more interesting to discuss.
So I’m off to watch the cricket!
Actually I didn’t get the joke, Kate, but as Nabakov has pointed out before, I’m deficient in the humour area.
What about the one about Philip Glass walking into a bar?
Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass walked into a bar. Phil Glass………
Actually I have to admit I really can’t get too hot ‘n’ bothered over cricket, and when Mr Kate watches it he usually folds washing while he does so, which gets a big thumbs-up from me.
That’s quite funny actually Rob. See, you do have a sense of humour!
“Could it be that ‘iron sharpens iron‚Äô?”
No. “Steels” tend to give a short term increase in sharpness which declines over to time. To properly sharpen a knife you need a stone. It also requires a degree of skill and patience.
hey I am a RWDB now wow.
rob I can’t see the glass joke.
Kate can’t either because of the ceiling!
The cricket is boring because the windies are hopelss.
When does the World Cup start oe is that banned too?
i’d rather read a 50,000 word Strocchi rant than watch cricket
’nuff said
You need to listen to an hour or so of his music, Homer.
you need to go sniff some petrol, homer
An hour of Philip Glass music also will prove to you that time is indeed, relative, and that music can be used as an effective torture device.
is that what you call an hourglass?
Dissing cricket at LP? A banning for the lot of yers.
Btw, are the South Africans supposed to put up a fight when they come over?
Did you hear the one about the Glass Stove?
it kept sputtering about Popper being a relativist
Stove was also Lakatos-intolerant
Last word from me on EP’s banning:
I think we were pretty tolerant of his nonsense.
Jason,
I can never look at your gravatar without seeing a big hoop earring on your right ear!
Kim; Blue Bell Knoll makes me cry every time I hear it.
fine, so *don’t* join in my philosophy of science punning
Sorry to weigh in so late on the EP banning, but why all the earnest agonising about it? Do you think the rw media has all this pain about their content gatekeeping? Do you think ANY right-wing blog would agonise so much? EP’s sole purpose was to shift the debate into the realm of the lunatic fringe. It detracted from real, rational discussion, and, frankly, became so tedious to me that I gave up visiting LP. Good riddance, and nice to be back, EP-free. Bring on the evidence-based dissent.
[Apologies to Kate]
I’m not real happy about the banning of EP either. Yes I know, “our place, our rules”, “if the boot was on the right foot” etc, etc. And it’s true he has a bee (a whole bloody hive actually) in his bonnet about male-female stuff that utterly buzzes many people off.
But I would have thought you could come up with more creative and productive responses than just pulling the plug. Off the top of my head:
“You’ve got one comment on this thread every 24 hours. Use it wisely.” (A solution Cap’n Quiggin has employed to good effect)
“Any comment using the words “hate”, “feminazi”, etc, etc, will be deleted. Otherwise go ahead and make your point.”
“You can only comment on this thread if each comment starts off with “Speaking as a woman”.”
” Come up with 200 postable words on a woman you fell in love with and then we’ll let another comment through.”
You get the drift. Put him through a few burning hoops first before he can start flaming others. Yes, too many a time he is a monomanical SOB but at his best he does has a good sense of humour and can stir up the odd preconception. Return the favour. Find ways to make him think twice before hitting “submit”. Don’t think of it as a chore but as a game.
The blogosphere (whether left, right, wrong or just gone to lunch) is always patting itself on the back about how clever, boundary-shattering and creative it is. But, aside from disemvoweling, it’s yet to come up with any original and entertaining ways of scratching persistant itches beyond banning. EP would make a wonderful guinea pig for some thread managment ju-jitsu experiments.
It’s not too late. I understand the average lifespan of an white Australian male is 77 years.
But less if they’re not married.
Yes, weathergirl, IMHO he was consistently play-acting and attention-demanding, which had the effect of derailing threads and making serious discussion almost impossible at times. But at times he did have the effect of drawing out further information and argument and at times a seriousness would break through, showing that there was a brain back there somewhere.
But he was intolerably egregious on particular topics and there is no facility for banning commenters on a specific threads.
The LP collective have strong free speech values, but there are limits.
These things are seldom black and white but at times a decision has to be made after due agonising and then there’s time to move on.
Brilliant ideas, Nabakov. (LOVE the “speaking as a woman”)
Or instead, how bout imposing an auto-replace on EP? So:
“Islamofascist” becomes “my good Muslim friends”
“Feminazis” becomes “the ladies at my local bake-off”
“Lefties” becomes “thinking folk”
“Hysteria” becomes “Pebble-mix”
and so on.
Well, my two bits: I generally support the host’s right to enjoy his / her own blog. We are, after all guests of a sort. If behaviour gets too tedious, it should change or cease. This isnt exactly the public sphere, after all. Close to it yes, but no unregulated soapbox forum. Someone has to bother doing it all, every day, etc.
My only regret is that now I won’t know what the LEFT AGENDA is.
“which had the effect of derailing threads”
Dunno about that Brian. As a grizzled veteran of Usenet and now blogs, I’ve found it fairly easy to skip over thread derailing efforts. I mean if you’re gonna rise to the bait, whaddya expect? A reasonable debate?
You’re a professional educator. You’ve spent many a long hour dealing with fine minds housed in bad brains and vice versa, smartarses and idiot savants, proto-psychos and wannabe martyrs. And you’ve dealt with ‘em in classrooms as well. So you’d probaly agree EP’s just a inner city speedbump compared to the Ivan Milats of the interwebs out there.
I’ve found that if you give commenters you disagree with enough thread, they’ll hang themselves with it eventually.
You can’t repeal the law of diminishing returns.
Don’t get even, let them make it clear themselves how odd they are.
Repetition makes the heart grow fouler.
The best revenge is not even bothering about it.
You can always walk away from arguing with a wall. It can’t.
(and moving now into the wondeful world of meaningless poverbs)
A shirt has a tail but cannot bark.
Do not stoop to tie your shoelaces in your neighbour’s melon patch.
Sick yaks leave light tracks.
Good whiskey makes you frisky.
Cheers.
Robert, you speak blasphemy! Cricket is the best sport ever.
For next week’s salon
What’s the optimal number*
Of comments per post?
* excludes Missy Higgins thread, where the answer is “n, where n tends towards infinity”
Nab’s point about diminishing marginal returns (applied generally, rather than just to EP) is a fair one. A thoughtful or amusing post with 20-80 brief but either thoughtful or amusing comments, and the occasional stoush is what I look for. More than 100 and the stoush has usually got either too nasty or people are talking past each other or both.
And Rob, my apologies if you thought I was putting you in the same vexatious category as EP or suggesting you should be banned. I was using you in the context of those commenters here who consistently provide a counterpoint or contrarian position, and how LP generally allows counterpoints to be made and contrary views expressed. Apologies if there was any slight taken.
This reminds me of when Jack Strocchi was banned by Andrea Harris from tim Blair’s blog.
her somewhat incoherent rant is quite similar to the rationalisations which have been said here concerning EP.
He has his own blog, went off the topic etal.
somewhat ironically when I supported Steve Edwards on his blog over this outrage Gary Gravett promptly banned me.
consequently I have been banned at Timbo’s site as well.
The reasons put up for EP just don’t stand up.
in eesnce what is been saying is if you don’t like it then go elsewhere.
This I can understand from an ill educated guttermouth at Timbo’s site but from the wonderfully ‘tolerant’ people at LP it is pure hypocrisy.
By all means ban foul language but banning someone because he disagrees or is a troll ( are you sure he isn’t an ent?) and writes too many commments is a pure disgrace.
Fyodor is right LP has jumped the shark. It has the same lack of humour as at Timbo’s and takes itself too seriously as well.
When I first visited blogland one of the grat beauties was a thread changing in topic.
Now this isn’t allowed!!!
give it up, homer, you’re getting boring …
go to work Jason and I want to get banned by three blogs!
Homer, I mean, Bring Back EP, I see Zoe’s hugging people once more like the LWLB she is. Perhaps you could head over there for a cuddle?
Stay brave and true BBEP. Brave and true.
The last thirty or so comments on this thread give ample proof (were any needed) that the second biggest problem created by nuisance commenters is their tendency to absorb everyone’s time and mental energy. Set up any kind of minimum standard and then you just find yourself spending all your time monitoring behaviour. (“Speaking as a woman” is a damn tempting suggestion though).
The first biggest problem with nuisance commenters is that they drive people away. Watch: gradually now, “new” commenters are going to start joining in now they see they might stand half a chance of not being immediately drowned out in off-topic garbage which the rest of the community appears, by their silence, to endorse.
You should all read Teresa Nielsen Hayden on moderating conversations in virtual space, since she says it far better than I ever could.
One of the most pernicious things about Andrea Harris’s policy of banning anyone who disagrees is that other bloggers are too reluctant to ban disruptive commenters, lest they appear like Harris.
It’s pretty clear that EP doesn’t want to reform — he’d rather annoy people here than have a good discussion, so banning him is the better for people who want to discuss something other than EP’s pet subject. It should also deter others by demonstrating that you really will ban those that misbehave here.
No worries, Haiku, I didn’t take it that way at all. Appreciated your comment.
disruptive commenters.
Fyodor is one of the best and I enjoyed it almost every time he did it and even when his Grandad said he was funny.
first they ban then they become boring and go bland.
Hey I am a poet and I used to drink moet now I am goet!
So, I’ve been away from my computer for nigh on a week and a half now.
Did I miss anything interesting?
Nabs, I didn’t see this comment before I made the one immediately following. When EP appeared on the threads of my occasional posts I chose to engage/respond. Mostly it had the effect of allowing me to introduce further relevant material which I had left out of the post in the interests of brevity.
On other threads it was sometimes better to just ignore him, I thought, but invariably someone took the bait. On some occasions this had the effect of derailing the thread. At times there was quite an intimate exchange going on when this rude so-and-so would turn up and turn it into a farce.
I like your suggestions and I’m sure you could implement them brilliantly. Sadly we all have to act within the limits of our own personalities. It would be beyond me, others in the LP collective may do better.
I have to tell you that although I was associated with schools professionally and then as a parent for 37 years (until 10 days ago) I never actually taught in a classroom. Your vivid description of the varied characters encountered there rings true. But while engaging is at the heart of educating, sadly there too at times it just doesn’t work out and there is a parting of the ways, even in government schools.
I have just typed and deleted a para about our futile attempts to rehabilitate a failed worker who was subsequently dismissed. It was a long time ago, but privacy needs to be respected. The sad fact is that in human relationships things don’t always work out.
That’s my comment for the day. I need to get to bed earlier, but if I do I’ll be logging off before I log on.
I temporarily banned (Bring Back EP/Homer Paxton) for similar reasons of Kate’s banning of EP. Since then my tolerance has increased because of examples shown be other RWDB’s not by lame excuses given by the other side of the sphere. EP has never sunk to Fyodor’s level of abuse (calling your mother a slut) and maybe repetitive but for all the declaration tolerance and root cause seeking has anybody tried to understand what he saying rather then being so dismissive.
Well as I see it this place has gone flat already without EP. If you want to live in an echo chamber the best way is to ban dissenting views. Admit it – EP got you riled and your brains fired up!
I am missing fyodor who on this blog usually made witty comments even before his grandad said he was funny.
“If you want to live in an echo chamber the best way is to ban dissenting views.”
Are you dissenting? And the spectre of a left-wing “echo chamber” is a right-wing myth.
What Bugger off EP said. Twice. No echo chambers here.
To be honest I always used to scroll past EP’s post. They were so predictable and repetitive as to be not worth reading. Strocchi, for all his faults, is a much more challenging bete noire.
Gary
you belong to the Kommissar Harris school of banning so I don’t think you’re entitled to preach here.
actually I was a little bit like Jason.
much better than banning him.
Then you do not get the extreme hyprocisy as the preceding writer.
Little difference between what happened here and what happened to Jack on Timbo’s blog!
Maybe EP just needs to be sent to Coventry for a while, then let him have another go at being more considerate to LPers. It is a left of centre perspective blog, which we all need to respect. It’s just that sometimes a counter view helps expression.
I do miss his deft and subtle grasp of gender issues.
Now how are sposed to know when feminists, Muslims or the LEFT are to blame?
As a matter of fact the Coventry solution is what I hoped the LP powers that be would naturally settle on in the fullness of time. Homer’s whinging is going to be counterproductive as no one likes being pressured into doing something.
The LPers lame attempt at cleverness by not signing of using there names or recognized non-deplumes is amusing. Are they afraid of Kate’s roth if they disagree.
Also is (I don’t give a rat’s arse about EP anymore) point valid? If so why hide? Could it be cs or Dear Lambert necessitating the need to hide the hypocrisy.
Uh Gary, it’s called taking the piss. Most regulars would know who these new ‘non-deplumes’ are by their gravatars.
“Are they afraid of Kate‚Äôs roth if they disagree”
Who’s kate’s roth. Any relation to david lee roth?
Nobody is hiding — they can be identified behind the scenes, and (mostly) by their Gravatars. They are obviously joining in Homer’s game, and I think the names are getting funnier.
Neither of your guesses as to IDGARAAEPA’s identity was correct.
hey I have the patent on lame humour which is why I am hoping people will run out of patents!
Gaz is right. hyprocisy thy name is very pinkish
Yeah Gary. Everyone is terrified of me. Especially Homer, who started the whole silly name thing and was doing so to protest EP’s banning. Can’t you see how scared Homer is?
I mean, it’s not like I can’t see IP addresses of commentors so changing the name is actually pointless, as any of my LP comrades (who are presumably wetting themselves with fear at how wrathful I am) would know, or as anyone who knows anything about blogs would know.
Tish. It’s so silly and it’s actually getting funnier by the minute. Oh, the persecution!
*Insert evil maniacal laugh.*
robert is incorrect.
This blog has no gravatis
Actually, it’s kind of cool to think I’m that scary. Boogada boodaga! Excuse me while I have my fangs sharpened.
Homer
you’re a Berkian conservative
after a boring interlude we now have some humour.
Can Mr fyodor join in so we can get some quality.
Mr soon my homerian thought would be he is a besrkian conservative
hey Fyodor’s grandad isn’t bad
Fyodor doesn’t like us any more. Sniffle.
Come back Fyodor! I miss you, you blue haired funny man of mystery you.
Yeah, Kate is scay.
Once, I accidentally double posted the same comment at her blog and she didn’t trackback me for, like, days. Beeyotch!
The Roth of Kate is totally my favourite movie though still. The wormy thing in Chekov’s ear? Icko.
Blue haired? Madam’s mistaken ’bout the man of mystery, methinks.
My mistake I wasn’t looking at gravatars, Jason. Kate not every one has static IP addresses.
Jason I already admitted my ill conceived banning (3). Except for one totally justified one (Fyodor) I’ve moved on and haven’t done any since.
“Who‚Äôs kate‚Äôs roth. Any relation to david lee roth?”
Phht!!
“so predictable and repetitive”
See? It’s been so long since I saw that little cheery gravatar, I can’t even remember what he looks like anymore!
*Weeps hysterically*
She’s thinking of that other evil mastermind, Mrs Slocombe.
its not about IP addresses it about EP’s address!
Lp is trying to sperm out of it
Homer, it’s easy, it’s http://www.evilpundit.com
Silly Homer.
eeek, Mandy like both kinds of music.
must have stayed at FXH’s place or been spermed by EP.
there is no help for this. A real guusberry!
I say, Is there some known reason why Fydrich isnt spreading his quixotic sanguinities about?
Now there’s a cat I’d would miss…..
Now whose being tediously repetitive.
I think he’s making the ultimate protest for EP, which is actually a better way to get a point across than hectoring (should that be homering?) people about being the Andrea Harris of The Left.
Just sayin’.
Or he could just be off on a yacht with some supermodels somewhere.
Gaz is right. I think everyone should be banned particularly mandy who admits without illegal substances liking country and western music.She is the one who buys FXH his safari suits!
I admit it with illegal substances too Homes.
I like country and music too. Therefore, Amanda stays.
err Homer you old drunk. I do not think everyone should be banned.
agghh,I surrounded by Andrea Harrisses.
fyodor, fyodor where for art thou Fyodor?
You’re right! EP is like the Krix, a tormented version of our own ID, the creature of the left subconscious.
What about the fish? Say NO to felines!
Too late you let the cat out of the bag!
Is Andrea Harris lesbian?
‘All about EP’ is right. No EP and the interferance goes on! LP is in danger of being assimilated. It looks as if this blog needs exorcism, but this is out of my league. You need Punditbusters.
You can review the thread where Gary banned Homer here.
Basically it went like this:
Homer: Should some-one be banned merely because he offers an opinion that is different from the blogger. That seems stupid to me as all that will happen is that you will have a meeting of mutual minds. This is not discussion.
Gary: Ok Homer I just banned your pathetic ass. I am not a charity and don’t friggen tell me how to run my domain.
Oh boy, in lieu of a Fyodor-Strocchi stoush, I’m sitting back in my armchair and awaiting in anticipation the next burst of fireworks between Dear Lambert and Mangled Gary.
Go on, reset the catflap so EP can get back in. He’s been pussywhipped enough.
And jeez, after hearing the Garys and Yobbos of this world complaing about the lack of fair play and rational arguement I have to airfreight my irony meter back to Stuttgart for recalibration.
Ha! That thread and Dear Lambert’s discovery of property rights since being asked to distance himself after his plagiarizing stunt. Shows the two faced rhetoric I’m getting at.
Dear Lambert you’ve surpassed my 3 or 4 in two and half years in a matter of months since finally moving to your own server.
Testing.
The most boring thing in the blogoverse is threads about blogging.
Yawn.
last i heard, he mumbled something about LP ‘jumping the shark’ for banning EP and we haven’t heard from him since. correlation doesn’t equal causation and we may be jumping to conclusions but the inference is supportable.
Eeeeehhhh.
I can’t think of anything clever to say. I think I used up all my clever earlier in the day.
Last time he disappeared, he was on hols. Haven’t seen him around the For Battle! or Catallaxy threads we’re he’s also often to be found.
But he just came back from hols!
These privileged bankers …
…
Jason Soon should be banned because his t statistic is 0.65 so his humour is not statistcally significant
Mark should be banisched because he has lived the life of brian
Robert should be banned because he knows Steve Edwards
Steve Edwards should be banned because he is my friend
Ken Parish should be banned because he like thugby Union
John Quiggin hould be banned because he has a beard
Naomi should be banned because she talks about poetry but said nothing about TS Eliot
Mandy should be banned because she like and worse advertises country and mwestern music
Kiss me Kate should be banned because she thinks Germaine Greer is intelligent
Liam should be banned because he wears a beret
Tim Lambert should be banned because he works at UNSW and no-one works there
Cs should be banned because of Eric Clapton
Nabakov should be banned because he has no kitty litter
Lefty Elitist should be banned because this site is not elitist.
geoff Honnor should be banned because there is no honnor amongst thieves
Nic Gruen should be banned for not recognising the P&P mini-series cannnot be bettered
FXH should be banned because of his appalling safari suits
and ban Fyodor for having his grandad say he is funny
I want to belatedly agree with Kim about the Cocteau Twins – listening to “Treasure” (1984) right now…
Being a keen waterskier in my youth, I found the Happy Days shark jumping episode fabulous.