Great rant by Julie Szego in The Age today about the contradictions in commercial and societal attitudes to women’s bodies and choice of clothing.
…you don’t need a PhD in gender studies to unravel the subtext here: women who flaunt their assets constitute a threat to the social order. These woman cause blokes to lose self-control, which means families inevitably bust up, empires crumble and moral anarchy prevails.
Let’s not pretend this isn’t a widely held, even if seldom uttered, belief. Despite the past four or so decades of feminism and the so-called sexual revolution, a profound terror still attaches to the female body.
As Szego points out, if I want to, I can dress for a business meeting with a bit of cleavage showing. I can wear a bikini on the beach. It doesn’t give anyone licence to treat me as an object. She’s quite right to say that attitudes towards women’s bodies – despite the acres of flesh displayed in public culture – have a continuing tendency to be atavistic. We need to think about this, and about how to go about changing it.
Maybe one day we’ll all loosen up and recognise it’s not the female body that’s dangerous but our inability to see past it.
Unfortunately, it’s a lose:lose situation.
Dress “modestly” and in cover-up clothes and you’re not being sexy enough to be “attractive” and you’ll “never get a man” or you’re not “feminine” enough.
Dress in a sexy manner and you’re “asking for it” or you “won’t be taken seriously”.
Kim,
Have you ever read the book Moralities? While concerned with the abuse of power Smith has some very good things to say regarding how the sexuality of women that would be compliment to the article.
Nice post btw.
The decision by Commonwealth Games organisers to ban their female employees from wearing revealing clothing would be hysterical if it wasn’t so C19th. One wonders if these are the same organisers who set a maximum size on the swimming costumes worn by Australia’s female beach volleyballers in the Sydney Olympics.
Can you wear a bikini?
Only on protected beaches, it seems.
The “profound terror” is felt much more profoundly in some places than others.
and Andrew…did you mean to say “minimum” size as to swim suits?
Kate, yes, and that’s why I’m endorsing Szego’s closing remark.
Shawn – I haven’t read it but I’ve seen it on one of Mark’s bookshelves so I might borrow it.
a different Kim – if you’re making some oblique comments about Sydney beaches, let me just say that I don’t need a mob of 5000 beer swilling violent yobbos to defend my right to wear a bikini on the beach. The “protective” attitude to women is problematic too, you know.
I know what Andrew means – basically beach volleyballers are forced to wear bikinis small enough so their bums keep popping out!
Who needs beer swilling, violent yobbos to protect oneself? Not me. Defend myself quite well, thanks, should any need arise.
Women’s issues are perennial. Not C19th or C10th or prehistorical. Or preherstorical.
Tons of things are problematic, aren’t they?
My issue is anyone denying our right to “flaunt our assets” without the issue of men “losing control”
Today, it’s more germane to frame it in those terms.
Rape because we are sluts wearing the wrong clothes. Once again.
Kim, everyone knows that women should be ladies in public and whores in bed.
So, if men can’t control themselves in the presence of billboards of scantily clad women then the only solution is burqas.
…Or guys making a bit of effort, of course.
But burqas are much easier.
I’m going with burqas.
From what I hear, the commonwealth games organisers need to do something pretty drastic to get their act together in time for March. I hope they’ve also banned men from wearing baggy low-slung trousers, nothing more distracting in the workplace than man cleavage.
The community activity program is going to have a Bollywood theme. Maybe they will relax the chin-to-ankle coverup rule a little then,
Ask the men about that.
Women live and act as they like.
“Ask the men about that” – about which?
Welcome to LP, by the way, different Kim!
Thanks for the welcome, Laura.
My ‘ask the men’ was directed to ‘ladies vs. whore’ and bikini vs. burqa point.
Don’t we require that information before we proceed? Is it not of the utmost import?
I would say that men are going to have sexual thoughts whether women cover their bodies or not. Likewise, violence against women would not change either. If anything… the very visual sexual culture in western countries is desensitizing. I remember watching a documentary about the Japanese Geisha, and how they would leave a small section of the back of their neck bare of make-up because it drove Japanese men wild. If women in the west covered up western men would probably end up perving on women’s necks, ankles, hands, feet and faces as much they perve on cleavage, midriff, legs and so on now. Men would probably develop a more vivid imagination as well.
Most men (most that I know anyway) seem to be able to exercize self-restraint and propriety towards women, even if they are wearing a bikini. It would seem to be a guideline for civilised people to not allow their impulses to be expressed in a base, violent, and unwelcome manner, if at all. As a man, I find incredibly offensive the idea that rape is the woman’s fault, and that the rapist is simply acting on uncontrollable urges invited by the woman’s appearance. It is offensive to men because it assumes that men are no more responsible for their actions than animals. It virtually equates us with animals.
“Most men (most that I know anyway)”
I should have said “all that I know anyway”. I would not knowingly acquaint myself with men who were other than civilised.
Let’s speak truly then.
Women’s bodies are beyond belief; commoditized, dietized, deitized and used.
Men are not criminals just by being XY, either. Let’s be smart.
Just a 4th wave talking.
I agree with sentiments of your post entirely and also those of the article quoted. However, I must say this is an issue that has perturbed me (and other women I’ve worked with) in certain workplaces. I mean, it’s not as if you can run round saying, ‘Accept me, accept my dress code, accept my tits on my terms!’
My experience of the workplace is very much ‘if you want to be taken seriously, dress seriously.’ You can challenge other people about their opinions/behaviour, you can make a sexual harassment complaint if they overstep the mark, but it’s not as if you can make other people share your opinions about women’s bodies/status, especially overnight. I’m not sure if I’m explaining myself very clearly but I don’t know how you change some of these attitudes after even several decades of equal opportunity & sex discrim legislation. And much of the low-grade sexual harassment such as ‘leering’ that can go on is often difficult to prove.
Re: Cliff’s point on the burka/bikini divide — a manager in one of my former workplaces had a penchant for leering at breasts, tho the more covered up they were, the more interest he seemed to take. ‘The greater the cover, the greater the challenge!’ we used to say.
Leerers rather the easiest to deal with, tho’ not fun.
A retort or report.
Or more, if needed.
“[I]f I want to, I can dress for a business meeting with a bit of cleavage showing. I can wear a bikini on the beach. It doesn’t give anyone licence to treat me as an object.”
Kim, I agree with the sentiment of your piece. However, there is a logical flaw in your invocation of ‘objectifying’ as the ‘bad thing’ that sexist men do.
What makes you choose certain clothes over others? Is it because of comfort, because maybe it is a hot day so you wear something breezy? Or perhaps because you are to enter a space (perhaps, for dinner) where you want to respect the social codes and dress in ‘evening wear’? The particular case is not important. What I am trying to point out is that when you choose the clothes you wear you must be objectifying yourself in a particular way. Objectification in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a very sensible everyday social skill that most people learn so as to get along with others.
The real problem is that _sexist mo-fos_ cannot objectify _themselves_; they do not realise the specific and accepted codes of conduct for particular spaces and/or they choose not to perform themselves in such a manner that is deemed socially acceptable and in accordance with particular codes of behaviour. This is a learnt, socially aquired skill, not something that is natural or innate.
Actually, it is not a lack of skill to objectify one’s self that is the issue… When young men are in a group they often think it is funny to approach a pretty woman and with much bravado say something that is utterly stupid. Do such women think they are the ones being objectified? Do you think that this particular man is such an idiot that he thinks he will get anywhere with the woman? Maybe there are some total dipsticks around, but I would suggest the answer is, ‘No.’ It are the so-called _sexist males_ who are objectifying _themselves_ in the eyes of their mates. It is the specificity of objectification at stake. How does one present one’s self in the world?
Just to be clear: for women’s volleyball the bikinis do indeed have a maximum size. Although one of the Aussie women (Pottharst or Cook, I think) commented that most of the women were already wearing stuff under the maximum. But the silly thing it that it takes away the choice for the competitors. The men’s gear has minimum sizes, related to the need to provide advertising space (again, I think).
It’s an OK sport, but give me proper (indoor) volleyball anyday.
just to add to that.
If you go to a business meeting showing a bit of cleavage what exactly is the message you are saying?
Having been to many I have yet to see a women attending a meeting showing any cleavage. Funny about that.
I remember the last time I was at a beach , a long time ago when I wasn’t married, a woman was raising merry hell because there were men looking at her. She was topless!
Shorter Homer: “When women are ogled on the beach by white men, no worries. When women are ogled on the beach by “Lebs” — quick, get me my pitchfork!”
If you go to a business meeting showing a bit of cleavage what exactly is the message you are saying?
I dunno, maybe “How are the sales figures for the last quarter?” or “We need to get Bob on board with that” or “Get me a coffee, pops”
“I’m excited!”
—In memory of Big Kev
Robert,
you do get excited sometimes.
Try and find anywhere a connection of lebos and women on the beach from what I have said.
I take it that it is perfectly all right for a woman to be topless at a beach and then to rant and rave because men at looking at her!
I take it that it is perfectly all right for a woman to be topless at a beach and then to rant and rave because men at looking at her!
Yes, Homer it is perfectly alright. You are not obliged to think it clever, interesting or justified.
Zoe,
The woman is doing it in a public place not her backyard
I caught that, thanks Homer.
sorry Zoe but if woman bares her breasts in a public place she has no right to complain if men look at them.
In this case they looked they didn’t ogle, breath heavily etal
DifferentKim, I did mean “maximum”. The rule for female beach volleyballers at the Sydney Olympics was that no more than 6cm of fabric could cover the hip (http://www.ausport.gov.au/women/fssex.asp).
Glen, I am well aware that I am sending signals when I choose what to wear and to a certain degree that is an “objectification” but I do think there’s a difference between self-presentation and only seeing sex. I don’t want to harden the divide though – and Cliff’s points are good ones too – I’m not suggesting there’s me and then there’s sexist blokes. But I think we’re on much the same wavelength – just using different terminology.
=”I don’t want to harden the divide though – and Cliff’s points are good ones too”=
Sorry, but being 33 going on 12 I’m going to have a snigger here.
I have to say these discussions do need the spicy disagreement of evil pundit.
Me, I’m gonna try showing half a bollock in my next meeting, with a nice leg-split, see if any of the girls take a peak. If you want to bet against I’m taking 10 to 1 odds…
I might take a peak, armaniac, but I can’t guarantee I’ll enjoy it!
But you’ve entirely missed the point – which is the gender difference already evident in women’s business attire and men’s – women face a dilemma as to whether to look sexy or not which also is replicated in workplace behaviour, and indeed behaviour in other parts of life.
Cuts both ways though. I complained to a group of women in the workplace, who get to wear pretty much anything they want, that it bordered on sexist (obviously I understated) that I had 1 choice of outfit available by convention, and they just guffawed and whistled and told me I couldn’t be serious.
I think issue #3 at the fringes of this discussion is whether it’s fair for someone with obvious physical advantages to use these in the workplace at the potential expense of, say, an overweight, unattractive 65 year old woman sitting at the same table who happens to be better at doing her job.
I still think you’re seeing the issue the wrong way round, armaniac. See this comment at stoush.net… There are studies which show empirically that women are assessed in selection processes on their appearance. That’s not a matter of an attractive women using “obvious physical advantages” – or if it is it’s because she’s also socialised into/working within this culture – the problem is that people can’t see past the sexualised surface. That was the point of my post.
“Maybe one day we’ll all loosen up and recognise it’s not the female body that’s dangerous but our inability to see past it”.
Can I let you all in on little secret. The female body, being most most lovely creation of all does have an affect on males. It get’s looked at and admired… often.That won’t stop any time soon.
A guy can have a serious converstion with a woman and still admire. Walking and chewing gum can be done at the same time even by men. Believe me.
Well armanic I’m typing this at work with the second button of my shirt daringly undone to reveal a distinct hint of pecs, like honey to the bee, and so far the only attention I’ve attracted is a snarky remark about not having heard of clothes irons.
While I don’t doubt that many women use their physical features to get ahead, it’s a pretty shitty deal for everyone concerned, don’t you think?
Let me put it for you this way: if the only power I possess is the power of being attractive to other people, this is not something that is inherent in me. It depends entirely upon other people’s views, and there is very little I can do about it.
Whereas if I have a degree or a technical capacity, or money, these things are valued by other inidividals not just as something they perceive, but also as something concrete, real, and something I can actually control.
The power of being ‘beautiful’ is so outside of one’s control, so arbitrary and capricious, that its not a real power at all. I don’t get to decide who thinks I’m attractive, no matter how short a skirt I wear. Some men just aren’t going to find a five-foot-four, pale-skinned, blue-eyed and fair-haired woman like me attractive, while some men are.
However, my university degree, my real life experience, my training, my ability to do my job: these are real things that most observers would agree upon.
I do think this is something that many men just don’t seem to understand. They seem to view the physical attractiveness of women as being somehow.. deliberate or a ploy or something. Whereas the thing is, if you find a woman attractive, that response is within yourself: it’s not something she’s doing to you.
I’m not denying that men find women sexually attractive: this is a good thing, as is the reverse!
I just get a bit tired of hearing how women use their sexuality to ‘get ahead’. The reality is, there’s not much power in it, (not compared to being a man who IS powerful, full stop, and who is the one judging the woman’s perceived attractiveness) and if women do flaunt it to get ahead, it might be due to the fact that we’re always hearing about how damn important our looks are and that we should be using them this way.
Kate:
“if you find a woman attractive, that response is within yourself: it’s not something she’s doing to you”.
You may want to rephrase that because most men would consider that to be untrue. women do have a hold over men by the status of their phyisical appearance. And it “is somthing she is doing to you”. We simply just can;t help looking at a great female body and marvel.
However, I think you are connecting two things here that aren’t necessarily mutually exlcusive. Guys can have a serious and meaningful business discussion with a woman while at the same time a man’s thoughts are heading towards sex. It simply can’t be helped. Call it a failing if you like but that’s how we think.
Yiu know what, it really doesn’t matter what we are thinking, does it? It’s what we are saying and acting on that’s important.
By the way you write very well.
“women do have a hold over men by the status of their phyisical appearance.”
But again, that isn’t the point of Kim’s post. It’s that society often gets stuck at that level, and they don’t seem able to “have a serious and meaningful business discussion with a woman while at the same time (their) thoughts are heading towards sex”.
Men may have fewer options in what they wear to work, but there is still a world of difference between, say, Paul Keating and John Howard. I’ve heard many stories from people who worked in Parliament House when Keating was PM who would wait around just to catch a glimpse of him doing his walk to the Chamber. In my opinion, it was incredibly sexy.
But imagine a woman PM dressed the same way. I don’t think society in general is yet capable of remarking that “Wow, didn’t Prime Minister Gillard look incredibly sexy today, and didn’t she give a fantastic speech on [insert policy here]“.
I am pleased that you can walk and chew gum – but in this instance, I think you are in the minority.
What Kate said very well indeed.
Joe – women have thoughts about sex when talking to men sometimes too. It’s just that we’re socialised to regard men in terms of other qualities in a work environment.
“women have thoughts about sex when talking to men sometimes too”
Next time I’m in a meeting with a cutey I’ll be thinking:
So then, let’s cut the serious crap about business, government or what ever and discuss sex because I know you are just as interested in seeing me nudo as I am in you.
Seriously, though, I never thought so… and I’m not kidding.
“Seriously, though, I never thought so…”
Really Joe? If I had a dollar for every time a woman seductively asked during a meeting to see my real spreadsheets, then I’d be…well at least cashed up enough for a visit to the $2 Shop.
Anna .
“Wow, didn’t Prime Minister Gillard look incredibly sexy today, and didn’t she give a fantastic speech on [insert policy here]â€?.”
I think you are right on this score. Every time Julia speaks I’m always staring at her and shutting off. That’s because she really easy on the eye… and single too.
You have given me some ideas about listening to Julia. Next time I’ll imagine she is like.. Lady Thatcher and I’m Dennis but with more hair and a better swagger about me (need to place it in conservative setting to get some traction out of it of course). Can always dream but won’t probably be listening.
Mitterrand once described Maggie Thatcher as having “the eyes of Caligula and the
mouth of Marilyn Monroe” while JG Ballard (with a few whiskey and sodas in him I’d imagine)said she was the first UK Prime Minister he could imagine sleeping with.
Incidentally returning from lunch today, I watched with interest as Peter Costello jaywalked across Collins St and nearly got hit by a tram. He was wearing a rather good dark blue suit though, discreetly nipped in at the waist, and which emphasised his broad shoulders and rugby player legs. However he is getting to that certain age when that kind of man starts to let themselves go a bit, especially around the hairline and jowls. Shame really.
Nabs
any time I’m in ameeting with eye candy it invariably turns into a jumbled mess. Why?
Because as I try to listen, the mind wonders off to a beach scence or something like that. When I finally get grip and try to listen I’m always mentally fumbling around attempting to put that part of the coversation together with what she was saying when we were both in Anguila.
And these gals think it’s so fucking easy. And now they are telling me Ms. (no Miss) Drop dead gorgeous may be just may be thinking of the same beach with (maybe) me beside her.
And now I am supposed to stop thinking that way even though just maybe she is .
Yea, good luck. It’s just worsened the frigging situation situation.
Thanks for nothing.
I’m not sure that getting a grip is really the best thing to do when your mind is tormented by visions of Anguila. Could raise a few eyebrows, to say the least.
Trot
Not if her mind is in Anguila beside me it ain’t.
Getting a grip was a deliberate turn of phrase to get a rise out of you Trot and it seemed to have succeeded.
Joe,
I’d be interested to know ho you can tell, when you’re in that imaginary Anguila, whether the vision of semi-naked loveliness beside you on the beach is a figment of your own imagination or a telepathic emanation from the eye candy that’s making your old-fella dribble.
As for getting a rise out of me – sorry, didn’t happen. Given the tone of your response it wouldn’t surprise me at all if your next comeback involves sexual congress with my mother. On a swing.
Trot, Please! A lady wrote this and there are a few girls threading on the post.
I tried to be cheeky with inuendo, which may have worked or it didn’t. However what you wrote was a little gross.
Nabs, I’d assume this was all just talk on your part, had I not seen you swaggering in real life. Ladies, he’s all heat. However, when it comes to substance…
To answer the serious question at the bottom of this, if I were a woman I would try to look my best, even be attractive, but my advice having worked in a range of corporate and legal type environments is not to play on the low cleavage high skirt thing.
Because there are now plenty of hard women in business, and they’ve been through a lot of crap to get there, and if you think they don’t know how to take out a ‘threat’ five times as ruthlessly and efficiently than any man would, you’re mistaken.
Go with black, black always looks sophisticated.
How about the tiny bit of cleavage, jacket, long skirt, stockings, pumps thing, armaniac? You still don’t get it! Your imagination is painting you pictures which aren’t warranted by the words!
What, by the way, is a bollock exactly?
Just askin…
A bollock…is…a testicle
Also “to bollock” v (transitive): to chastise, berate. Always used as a gerund i.e. “I gave him a good bollocking.”
Personally I’m thoroughly sick of the constant barrage of sexualised depictions of women on bus stops, billboards, magazines, movies, “reality” television etc that reinforce a limited set of stereotypes that have more in common with adolescent male porn fantasy than any real (sexy or otherwise) woman I’ve ever known. Being collectively desensitised to them doesn’t always mean progress – sometimes it means that we need to up the ante to keep getting the same “kicks”.
I am reasonably familiar with the wish to be utterly desirable and there’s nothing more exciting than having those sentiments reciprocated by someone you fancy. And I’m sure that “nature” discriminated positively for those sorts of traits for fairly good reasons. But contemporary depictions of women so often feel like limited versions of those baboons with pink arses being on heat 24/7, 12 months a year and far from feeling “liberating”, it feels oppressive and offensive. Ditto with cultural trends that purport to extend women’s options but still provide 21st century versions of “how to give great head/pole dance/get jiggy” instead of “how to find your clitoris”. So it’s no surprise to me that we’re still having Madonna/whore conversations about women’s clothing in the workplace.
Not so long ago the juvenile male form was the (self-evident, ordained by God) universal standard of beauty. I hear people like Joe saying the same about women’s bodies, like it’s the universal truth instead of simply a view in a particular time. My main reason for not finding those sorts of global sentiments flattering is that this view is often used to justify the “I can’t help it”, “we all do it” position. We also used to admire black people for having “rhythm” and bewilderingly, lots of them weren’t grateful for the compliment either.
Jeezbus Amen, Roseg!
Whether the Sartorial Rules instituted in a workplace are about boobs out or boobs shrouded in swathes of black gabardine, if they apply to one gender only, not to both, then those rules are crap: sexist and inconducive to a productive, focused workplace.
The basic message of rules which define the gender differences between employees is to say that physical gender is an important influence on the way you do your job. More influential than stuff that isn’t governed by rules, like oh I don’t know, your level of education or your experience or your skills.
I don’t give a shit what anyone wears to work, having found out through years and years of intensive Ponds Institute-sponsored research that clothes doesn’t have any effect at all on a person’s ability to do their job properly. I met Derrida once, he had spaghetti sauce on his jumper.
Loose, dirty, cat-hairy clothes make one less conscious of one’s own body and therefore able to think better. Thomas Aquinas proved it. I don’t wear makeup to work, I don’t blowdry my hair before going off to teach, none of that. It wouldn’t make me better at what I do and I’d have to get up earlier. What I do out of work is a different kettle of fish.
=”clothes doesn’t have any effect at all on a person’s ability to do their job properly”=
Not quite. I hate the male uniform, in particular the tie, and find I don’t work as well with my throat choked up.
I’m still not amused at being the object of derision by a bunch of high achieving outspokenly feminist female barristers and solicitors when I suggested that having to wear 1 outfit and 1 outfit only- suit and tie- was unfair and discriminatory.
I’m for both genders having a lot more room to dress how they feel like it, frankly, within reasonable limits.
But what my previous comment was getting at is this debate is generally framed as driven by men (doing the judging, negative and positive) whereas my experience of being in female dominated workplaces is that it’s often other women who are stereotyping women based on what they wear.