Not quite. I hate the male uniform, in particular the tie, and find I don’t work as well with my throat choked up.

I’m still not amused at being the object of derision by a bunch of high achieving outspokenly feminist female barristers and solicitors when I suggested that having to wear 1 outfit and 1 outfit only- suit and tie- was unfair and discriminatory.

I’m for both genders having a lot more room to dress how they feel like it, frankly, within reasonable limits.

But what my previous comment was getting at is this debate is generally framed as driven by men (doing the judging, negative and positive) whereas my experience of being in female dominated workplaces is that it’s often other women who are stereotyping women based on what they wear.

Whether the Sartorial Rules instituted in a workplace are about boobs out or boobs shrouded in swathes of black gabardine, if they apply to one gender only, not to both, then those rules are crap: sexist and inconducive to a productive, focused workplace.

The basic message of rules which define the gender differences between employees is to say that physical gender is an important influence on the way you do your job. More influential than stuff that isn’t governed by rules, like oh I don’t know, your level of education or your experience or your skills.

I don’t give a shit what anyone wears to work, having found out through years and years of intensive Ponds Institute-sponsored research that clothes doesn’t have any effect at all on a person’s ability to do their job properly. I met Derrida once, he had spaghetti sauce on his jumper.

Loose, dirty, cat-hairy clothes make one less conscious of one’s own body and therefore able to think better. Thomas Aquinas proved it. I don’t wear makeup to work, I don’t blowdry my hair before going off to teach, none of that. It wouldn’t make me better at what I do and I’d have to get up earlier. What I do out of work is a different kettle of fish.

I am reasonably familiar with the wish to be utterly desirable and there’s nothing more exciting than having those sentiments reciprocated by someone you fancy. And I’m sure that “nature” discriminated positively for those sorts of traits for fairly good reasons. But contemporary depictions of women so often feel like limited versions of those baboons with pink arses being on heat 24/7, 12 months a year and far from feeling “liberating”, it feels oppressive and offensive. Ditto with cultural trends that purport to extend women’s options but still provide 21st century versions of “how to give great head/pole dance/get jiggy” instead of “how to find your clitoris”. So it’s no surprise to me that we’re still having Madonna/whore conversations about women’s clothing in the workplace.

Not so long ago the juvenile male form was the (self-evident, ordained by God) universal standard of beauty. I hear people like Joe saying the same about women’s bodies, like it’s the universal truth instead of simply a view in a particular time. My main reason for not finding those sorts of global sentiments flattering is that this view is often used to justify the “I can’t help it”, “we all do it” position. We also used to admire black people for having “rhythm” and bewilderingly, lots of them weren’t grateful for the compliment either.

What, by the way, is a bollock exactly?

Just askin…

To answer the serious question at the bottom of this, if I were a woman I would try to look my best, even be attractive, but my advice having worked in a range of corporate and legal type environments is not to play on the low cleavage high skirt thing.

Because there are now plenty of hard women in business, and they’ve been through a lot of crap to get there, and if you think they don’t know how to take out a ‘threat’ five times as ruthlessly and efficiently than any man would, you’re mistaken.

Go with black, black always looks sophisticated.

I tried to be cheeky with inuendo, which may have worked or it didn’t. However what you wrote was a little gross.

I’d be interested to know ho you can tell, when you’re in that imaginary Anguila, whether the vision of semi-naked loveliness beside you on the beach is a figment of your own imagination or a telepathic emanation from the eye candy that’s making your old-fella dribble.

As for getting a rise out of me - sorry, didn’t happen. Given the tone of your response it wouldn’t surprise me at all if your next comeback involves sexual congress with my mother. On a swing.

Getting a grip was a deliberate turn of phrase to get a rise out of you Trot and it seemed to have succeeded.

any time I’m in ameeting with eye candy it invariably turns into a jumbled mess. Why?

Because as I try to listen, the mind wonders off to a beach scence or something like that. When I finally get grip and try to listen I’m always mentally fumbling around attempting to put that part of the coversation together with what she was saying when we were both in Anguila.

And these gals think it’s so fucking easy. And now they are telling me Ms. (no Miss) Drop dead gorgeous may be just may be thinking of the same beach with (maybe) me beside her.

And now I am supposed to stop thinking that way even though just maybe she is .

Yea, good luck. It’s just worsened the frigging situation situation.

Thanks for nothing.

Incidentally returning from lunch today, I watched with interest as Peter Costello jaywalked across Collins St and nearly got hit by a tram. He was wearing a rather good dark blue suit though, discreetly nipped in at the waist, and which emphasised his broad shoulders and rugby player legs. However he is getting to that certain age when that kind of man starts to let themselves go a bit, especially around the hairline and jowls. Shame really.

“Wow, didn’t Prime Minister Gillard look incredibly sexy today, and didn’t she give a fantastic speech on [insert policy here]â€?.”

I think you are right on this score. Every time Julia speaks I’m always staring at her and shutting off. That’s because she really easy on the eye… and single too.

You have given me some ideas about listening to Julia. Next time I’ll imagine she is like.. Lady Thatcher and I’m Dennis but with more hair and a better swagger about me (need to place it in conservative setting to get some traction out of it of course). Can always dream but won’t probably be listening.

Really Joe? If I had a dollar for every time a woman seductively asked during a meeting to see my real spreadsheets, then I’d be…well at least cashed up enough for a visit to the $2 Shop.

Next time I’m in a meeting with a cutey I’ll be thinking:

So then, let’s cut the serious crap about business, government or what ever and discuss sex because I know you are just as interested in seeing me nudo as I am in you.

Seriously, though, I never thought so… and I’m not kidding.

Joe - women have thoughts about sex when talking to men sometimes too. It’s just that we’re socialised to regard men in terms of other qualities in a work environment.

But again, that isn’t the point of Kim’s post. It’s that society often gets stuck at that level, and they don’t seem able to “have a serious and meaningful business discussion with a woman while at the same time (their) thoughts are heading towards sex”.

Men may have fewer options in what they wear to work, but there is still a world of difference between, say, Paul Keating and John Howard. I’ve heard many stories from people who worked in Parliament House when Keating was PM who would wait around just to catch a glimpse of him doing his walk to the Chamber. In my opinion, it was incredibly sexy.

But imagine a woman PM dressed the same way. I don’t think society in general is yet capable of remarking that “Wow, didn’t Prime Minister Gillard look incredibly sexy today, and didn’t she give a fantastic speech on [insert policy here]”.

I am pleased that you can walk and chew gum - but in this instance, I think you are in the minority.

You may want to rephrase that because most men would consider that to be untrue. women do have a hold over men by the status of their phyisical appearance. And it “is somthing she is doing to you”. We simply just can;t help looking at a great female body and marvel.

However, I think you are connecting two things here that aren’t necessarily mutually exlcusive. Guys can have a serious and meaningful business discussion with a woman while at the same time a man’s thoughts are heading towards sex. It simply can’t be helped. Call it a failing if you like but that’s how we think.

Yiu know what, it really doesn’t matter what we are thinking, does it? It’s what we are saying and acting on that’s important.

By the way you write very well.

Let me put it for you this way: if the only power I possess is the power of being attractive to other people, this is not something that is inherent in me. It depends entirely upon other people’s views, and there is very little I can do about it.

Whereas if I have a degree or a technical capacity, or money, these things are valued by other inidividals not just as something they perceive, but also as something concrete, real, and something I can actually control.

The power of being ‘beautiful’ is so outside of one’s control, so arbitrary and capricious, that its not a real power at all. I don’t get to decide who thinks I’m attractive, no matter how short a skirt I wear. Some men just aren’t going to find a five-foot-four, pale-skinned, blue-eyed and fair-haired woman like me attractive, while some men are.

However, my university degree, my real life experience, my training, my ability to do my job: these are real things that most observers would agree upon.

I do think this is something that many men just don’t seem to understand. They seem to view the physical attractiveness of women as being somehow.. deliberate or a ploy or something. Whereas the thing is, if you find a woman attractive, that response is within yourself: it’s not something she’s doing to you.

I’m not denying that men find women sexually attractive: this is a good thing, as is the reverse!

I just get a bit tired of hearing how women use their sexuality to ‘get ahead’. The reality is, there’s not much power in it, (not compared to being a man who IS powerful, full stop, and who is the one judging the woman’s perceived attractiveness) and if women do flaunt it to get ahead, it might be due to the fact that we’re always hearing about how damn important our looks are and that we should be using them this way.