Comments on: Some left and libertarian perspectives on the cartoons [links post] http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/ Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:14:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Rob http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52683 Rob Sat, 18 Feb 2006 00:28:42 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52683 An interesting development - Leunig has now seemingly <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/photo/060217/ids_photos_ts/r482513758.jpg/print;_ylt=AjrHDpsHNcICIPSOlI.dJtbmWMcF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3bXNtMmJ2BHNlYwNzc3M-" rel="nofollow">become a target </a> of Islamist rage. An interesting development - Leunig has now seemingly become a target of Islamist rage.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52428 Mark Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:48:54 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52428 Too tired to get my head around all the meanings tonight, Rob! Too tired to get my head around all the meanings tonight, Rob!

]]> By: Rob http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52425 Rob Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:42:43 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52425 Only up to a point, Mark. At the experiential level, history communicates its own meanings. Take, say, the murder of Marat during the French Revolution. The moment was caught for us by texts and images. We can understand it experientially on its own terms. We understand the victim and the perpetrator, the who where and why - at the local level. But at the explanative level, it can't explain itself, because the present moment of the past does not understand itself. It doesn't know what it means, only that it happened. What did it say about the French revolution as a whole? That's where explanations come in. And explanations are retroactively imposed. And my authority is also Foucault. But that's enough of my anti-historicist ramblings for one night. Only up to a point, Mark. At the experiential level, history communicates its own meanings. Take, say, the murder of Marat during the French Revolution. The moment was caught for us by texts and images. We can understand it experientially on its own terms. We understand the victim and the perpetrator, the who where and why - at the local level. But at the explanative level, it can’t explain itself, because the present moment of the past does not understand itself. It doesn’t know what it means, only that it happened. What did it say about the French revolution as a whole? That’s where explanations come in. And explanations are retroactively imposed.

And my authority is also Foucault.

But that’s enough of my anti-historicist ramblings for one night.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52420 Mark Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:27:03 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52420 We're not necessarily opposed, Rob, but history can reveal its own meaning rather than having meanings of the present read back into it. I offer Foucault as an authority :) We’re not necessarily opposed, Rob, but history can reveal its own meaning rather than having meanings of the present read back into it. I offer Foucault as an authority :)

]]> By: Rob http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52416 Rob Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:23:18 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52416 Mark, the problem is that history is as much about meaning as it is about facts. History is about the discovery and extraction of meaning (or its attribution) that resonates in the present. (Begone von Ranke!) And wbb, yes, if you were a communist anywhere between the 30's and 50's, I'd say you were complicit. Mark, the problem is that history is as much about meaning as it is about facts. History is about the discovery and extraction of meaning (or its attribution) that resonates in the present. (Begone von Ranke!)

And wbb, yes, if you were a communist anywhere between the 30’s and 50’s, I’d say you were complicit.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52415 Mark Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:18:15 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52415 Is Rafe lurking? Is Rafe lurking?

]]> By: wbb http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52413 wbb Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:14:40 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52413 Yeah, you'd probably expect me to cop some of the blame for Stalin's holocaust? Yeah, you’d probably expect me to cop some of the blame for Stalin’s holocaust?

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52412 Mark Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:13:22 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52412 Well, Rob, you're an occasional postmodernist whereas I'm not one at all :) There is of course a disagreement over meanings, but forming an opinion on the basis of the facts (or such of them as can be reliably established) is a much better way of proceeding than finding facts or construing disputed facts in order to support a pre-formed opinion. Well, Rob, you’re an occasional postmodernist whereas I’m not one at all :)
There is of course a disagreement over meanings, but forming an opinion on the basis of the facts (or such of them as can be reliably established) is a much better way of proceeding than finding facts or construing disputed facts in order to support a pre-formed opinion.

]]> By: Rob http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52410 Rob Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:06:51 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52410 <blockquote>And then even if you did manage to sort thru the historical record, you are still left with the political question of where you stand vis-a-vis the conflict. For that I prefer Chomsky or Fisk.</blockquote> Exactly right, wbb. And I would prefer other commentators. For example, you and I could amicably agree on the <b>facts</b>, as attested by the historical record, of the fall of Sovietism. But I'm quite sure we would violently disagree on its <b>meanings.</b>

And then even if you did manage to sort thru the historical record, you are still left with the political question of where you stand vis-a-vis the conflict. For that I prefer Chomsky or Fisk.

Exactly right, wbb. And I would prefer other commentators.

For example, you and I could amicably agree on the facts, as attested by the historical record, of the fall of Sovietism. But I’m quite sure we would violently disagree on its meanings.

]]> By: wbb http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52409 wbb Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:02:21 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52409 And then even if you did manage to sort thru the historical record, you are still left with the political question of where you stand vis-a-vis the conflict. For that I prefer Chomsky or Fisk. Anybody, really, who will stand up for a full accounting in a world where one side dominates to the misfortune, ultimately, of all. If somebody sees no injustice concerning the recent history of Palestine then yes the murderous attacks on buses will be the story, but for those who can see legit grievance behind those barbarous attempts at redress, there will at least be context and thence recognition that the status quo will do nothing but bring such troubling scenes to our TV screens long into our childrens' lifetimes. It's all very well to ignore Israeli mishandling of admittedly an extremely difficult situation but unless they attempt to act better the cycle won't stop. It's certainly in vain to wait for the suicide bombers to grow up. Israel is in a position of power of wealth of education of powerful allies. They are best placed to break this down. So pragmatics demands that we look to them first. Is why ppl like Leunig grow so frustrated with people like Sharon et al. The false charge of anti-semitism hurled at harsh but fair-minded critics of Israeli hawks are a time-wasting denial of reality. Akin to being called anti-American everytime one excoriates Bush/Cheney. The Holocaust image is too sensitive to be used as Leunig did. It leads to the types of misreading we see above. But there is no way the cartoon traduces the suffering of the Holocaust. It uses it as a pointer precisely because it is so self-evidently terrible. And then even if you did manage to sort thru the historical record, you are still left with the political question of where you stand vis-a-vis the conflict. For that I prefer Chomsky or Fisk.

Anybody, really, who will stand up for a full accounting in a world where one side dominates to the misfortune, ultimately, of all. If somebody sees no injustice concerning the recent history of Palestine then yes the murderous attacks on buses will be the story, but for those who can see legit grievance behind those barbarous attempts at redress, there will at least be context and thence recognition that the status quo will do nothing but bring such troubling scenes to our TV screens long into our childrens’ lifetimes.

It’s all very well to ignore Israeli mishandling of admittedly an extremely difficult situation but unless they attempt to act better the cycle won’t stop. It’s certainly in vain to wait for the suicide bombers to grow up. Israel is in a position of power of wealth of education of powerful allies. They are best placed to break this down. So pragmatics demands that we look to them first. Is why ppl like Leunig grow so frustrated with people like Sharon et al.

The false charge of anti-semitism hurled at harsh but fair-minded critics of Israeli hawks are a time-wasting denial of reality. Akin to being called anti-American everytime one excoriates Bush/Cheney. The Holocaust image is too sensitive to be used as Leunig did. It leads to the types of misreading we see above. But there is no way the cartoon traduces the suffering of the Holocaust. It uses it as a pointer precisely because it is so self-evidently terrible.

]]> By: Rob http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52407 Rob Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:57:50 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52407 The present tends to be a battleground of contested meanings. So does the past, of course, but those battlegrounds do not have the immediacy of the the present. History is only one way to understand and disentangle them. Anecdote, personal testimony, observations, encounters and personal experience will play in an individual's determination of meaning as much as the historical record. It's one thing to establish what the French Revolution 'was'. It's quite another to establish what it 'means'. So I'm not sure there is a neutral intellectual plain that will help Christo understand the present-day Middle East, no dispassionate beacon shedding light on the landscape. He will have to to work his own way through the contested territory himself - as we all have done. Apologies for the pomo turn. The present tends to be a battleground of contested meanings. So does the past, of course, but those battlegrounds do not have the immediacy of the the present. History is only one way to understand and disentangle them. Anecdote, personal testimony, observations, encounters and personal experience will play in an individual’s determination of meaning as much as the historical record. It’s one thing to establish what the French Revolution ‘was’. It’s quite another to establish what it ‘means’. So I’m not sure there is a neutral intellectual plain that will help Christo understand the present-day Middle East, no dispassionate beacon shedding light on the landscape. He will have to to work his own way through the contested territory himself - as we all have done.

Apologies for the pomo turn.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52405 Mark Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:38:43 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52405 Undoubtedly, though, Rob, some of the truth of what occurred can be established through historical research. Undoubtedly, though, Rob, some of the truth of what occurred can be established through historical research.

]]> By: Rob http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52404 Rob Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:37:02 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52404 But you own comment rather begs the question of just are the 'just rights' of the Palestinians. To the Palestinians, it's getting their land back. In their schools, the state if Israel does not appear on maps of the Middle East. And in a way, it would be just - to the Palestinians. But would it be just to the Jews? And revisionist Israeli historians are subject to bitter criticism from their non-revisionist colleagues (what's a revisionist again?). Herein lie the grave difficulties. But you own comment rather begs the question of just are the ‘just rights’ of the Palestinians. To the Palestinians, it’s getting their land back. In their schools, the state if Israel does not appear on maps of the Middle East. And in a way, it would be just - to the Palestinians. But would it be just to the Jews?

And revisionist Israeli historians are subject to bitter criticism from their non-revisionist colleagues (what’s a revisionist again?).

Herein lie the grave difficulties.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52399 Mark Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:30:06 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52399 I certainly wouldn't recommend Chomsky, either, though I wouldn't go that far. But he's not a historian and I think he makes his mind up before he presents the evidence. That's why - if you're looking for a minimum of bias and a maximum of scholarship, it makes sense that revisionist Israeli historians who are Jewish and support the state of Israel but concerned with the accuracy of the historical record and the just rights of Palestinians are <i>ipso facto</i> likely to be the most reliable sources. They would certainly also have had their conclusions and methods subjected to strong challenge within the historical academy. I certainly wouldn’t recommend Chomsky, either, though I wouldn’t go that far. But he’s not a historian and I think he makes his mind up before he presents the evidence. That’s why - if you’re looking for a minimum of bias and a maximum of scholarship, it makes sense that revisionist Israeli historians who are Jewish and support the state of Israel but concerned with the accuracy of the historical record and the just rights of Palestinians are ipso facto likely to be the most reliable sources. They would certainly also have had their conclusions and methods subjected to strong challenge within the historical academy.

]]> By: Rob http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52395 Rob Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:21:30 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52395 Very hard to keep away from polemicists on this issue, though, because they basically 'own' the debate. And 'carefully-researched' history can be no less polemical than outright propaganda. Plenty of people laud Chomsky as being well-researched, meticulous, etc. And in a way he is. It doesn't stop him being a paranoid delusionist, however. Very hard to keep away from polemicists on this issue, though, because they basically ‘own’ the debate. And ‘carefully-researched’ history can be no less polemical than outright propaganda. Plenty of people laud Chomsky as being well-researched, meticulous, etc. And in a way he is. It doesn’t stop him being a paranoid delusionist, however.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52393 Mark Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:12:25 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52393 That's why I'm suggesting carefully researched history, then forming your own view, Rob. I'd stay away from polemicists on both sides. That’s why I’m suggesting carefully researched history, then forming your own view, Rob. I’d stay away from polemicists on both sides.

]]> By: Rob http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52391 Rob Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:10:02 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52391 That link just looked like counter-polemics to me. It is a problem with this issue, though - who on earth to believe. That link just looked like counter-polemics to me.

It is a problem with this issue, though - who on earth to believe.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52388 Mark Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:01:14 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52388 Dershowitz has been accused of <a href="http://www.logosjournal.com/sagall.htm" rel="nofollow">deliberate falsification</a> and his only response (as far as I'm aware) has been ad hominem against his critics. Dershowitz has been accused of deliberate falsification and his only response (as far as I’m aware) has been ad hominem against his critics.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52385 Mark Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:00:02 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52385 Rob, Dershowitz is something I'd caution against for someone looking for information as opposed to polemics on the same grounds as I made my comment about partisan/slanted info on the interwebs. But he might be a useful datum as an example of partisan polemic :) Rob, Dershowitz is something I’d caution against for someone looking for information as opposed to polemics on the same grounds as I made my comment about partisan/slanted info on the interwebs. But he might be a useful datum as an example of partisan polemic :)

]]> By: Rob http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52384 Rob Thu, 16 Feb 2006 11:51:13 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/02/14/some-left-and-libertarian-perspectives-on-the-cartoons-links-post/#comment-52384 You could also try the anti-revisionist Alan Dershowitz's 'The Case for Israel'. For mine, I'd avoid anything endorsed by Noam Chomsky. You could also try the anti-revisionist Alan Dershowitz’s ‘The Case for Israel’. For mine, I’d avoid anything endorsed by Noam Chomsky.

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