An open thread where you can, at your long weekend leisure, discuss whatever you like.
Happy Easter – from all at LP!
xx
241 Responses to “Thursday Salon (Easter edition)”
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Guys, i’ve been reading LP for a while, and never really posted. One thing i respect is your secularism. Personally, i think it would be better to wish readers happy holidays, rather than happy easter.
– anyway, just nit-picking i-suppose – Happy holidays!
Happy chocolate day!
Happy flying spaghetti monster day!
Adama, you are being rigidly politically correct. I’m atheist but I have no problem with being wished Happy Easter, Happy Ramadan or even Happy Satanic Ritual Sacrifice.
Why not ease up a little and show some good grace?
Spiced currant bun season greetings.
In the US it’s “Happy holidays” at christmas/new years time, or “Merry Christmas/Hannukah/KWANZAA”
There was too much of it! And people at the bottom of every escalator saying “happy holidays!”
(you’ll have to guess what KWANZAA is)
Dear Steve
Happy Bossy Pants Day
xx
On the 25th of December I celebrate the birth of the Messiah. He who described the tides, and elucidated the motion earthly and celestial.
Isaac Newton.
Since the word Easter comes from the name of a pagan goddess of Spring whose festival was held on the vernal equinox I can’t think of any more appropriate word to be used for the holiday on this site. Easter eggs are a residue of that festival.
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordore.htm
We could rightly have a go at the Christians for pinching a perfectly good pagan festival.
I celebrate the fact that I work to an award and thus have the right to turn down work on public holidays, and in my non-religious way I’ll be hoping that a fair IR system is resurrected soon.
Happy “Easter?” from Japan
Ditto to Steve Munn
Tonight is also the second night of pesach (passover) with the observation of Seder and an eight course meal.
Happy easter/holidays/whatever to all.
Happy p*ss off early for a four day weekend, everyone. Aussie aussie aussie, etc etc etc.
i left an angry message on my business answering machine for Easter informing everyone that jesus died for them and how dare they call at a time like this.
nah, not really.
oh well guys, off to the Australian Gospel Music Festival to enjoy some of that white-bread muzakal goodness, or should I say ‘godness’. Oh god, somebody shoot me.
Adama has brought the War on Easter to LP!
If Easter is the reason for the season then Happy Easter it is. Though considering Easter is based someone being tortured to death it is a strange sentiment.
“Jesus died for somebody’s sins but not mine.” – Patti Smith
Has anyone noticed how the supermarket chains have discovered Lent and its capacity for selling fish. I’d never noticed before but it surely must add to any sales slippage in easter eggs or buns.
You can bet someone in Woolies/Coles planning depts is working on Ramadan sales -
something quick and filling for the microwave after dark.
Happy Easter all!
Happy Easter adama, you twerp. This blog isn’t secular at all, you parrot.
Jews, Christians, Muslims, and even Brunswick Street Buddhists read this blog.
So do atheists. And most have the heart to respect religion. But you don’t even have the brain.
You dork!
Try minding your own business.
Keirnan – and oh jeepers but you’re funny. A real scream.
You twit.
Happy Pile-On @ the New Commenter Day!
no, not really. Happy DeGrassi Junior High Day!
Catholics can indulge their blood lusts tomorrow night. Channel 7 is showing Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ.
If Jesus was the fruit of the vine, shouldn’t that be Passiona of the Christ?
Jesus went into a hotel at Easter and asked the manager, “Can you put me up for the night?”
Sign on St Jerome Catholic School in The Simpsons:
He suffered for our sins. Now it’s your turn.
How many Christians does it take to change a light bulb? None. Christians don’t use light bulbs. Jesus is the Light of the World.
Jup,
The seafood section at my local Woolies has stickers on it which say “Especially for Lent”. The price on all seafood items is up by 10%. How’s that for being secular!
One look at your ugly mug silkworm would put out all the lights in Times Square. You could never change a bulb, you stupid bastard – not even in a torch.
It isn’t just Jews, Christians, Muslims, Brunswick Street Buddhists and atheists who enjoy this blog. Some Jedis like it, too.
Unlike these slackers here (LOL!), I’ll be updating my blogs right through the Easter weekend, if you get bored.
Your New Reality : http://www.yournewreality.blogspot.com
Planet Of Strange Things : http://www.planetofstrangethings.blogspot.com
The Fourth World War : http://www.the4thworldwar.blogspot.com
Won’t Passion Of The Christ be cut to ribbons (like Jesus in the movie) by the censors when it’s shown on TV? Or is there a different ratings system involved for religious-related violence?
I loved a good gorey movie when I was a teenager, but I was stunned by the blood and brutality of Gibbo’s christgore epic. I saw it in the ciity, two dozen people in the cinema, halfway through a woman stood up and screamed out, “Christ has entered my soul! Christ has entered my soul!”
Some guy down the front turned around and shouted “Shut the hell up and take him outside!”
Classic.
The Last Temptation Of Christ was better. Bronx accents in the first century AD. Excellent!
How many silkWORMS does it take to change a light bulb?
Two. One to screw it in and one to screw it up.
Pimp.
Chairman, put the pin back in; and have a happy easter, one and all, a pagan festival as GregM reminds us.
Christians can go to hell.
Religion is for the afterlife. Libraries are the House of God, here and now. Knowledge is for everyone. – Gene Simmons
Dogma: a hard substance which forms in a soft brain. – Elbert Hubbard
All religion represents a danger to our society and future. I think moderate religion makes the world safe for extremists, because children are trained from the cradle to think faith in itself is a good thing. So then when someone says it’s part of their faith to kill people, their actions need no further justification, and are almost respected as such. – Richard Dawkins
No one is more dogmatic than you.
Worm.
All you know is to make the right noises; words put in your mouth.
You’re a cliche.
Coughed up phlegm.
Where does this whole non-meat eating thing for Good Friday come from?
I gather the Catholic line is that is about abstinence and sacrifice. There are no Biblical injunctions against it. I vaguely remember that the practice arose from giving their fishmongers their due at some time in the past.
I don’t believe in God because I don’t believe in Mother Goose. – Clarence Darrow
Ask the Markus.
Slaves be obedient to your masters. – Ephesians 6:5
So what do you believe in worm, your stupendous talent?
What a joke.
We don’t have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand. – James Watt, Secretary of the Interior in the Reagan Administration, responsible for US national policy regarding the environment
Worm joined the Pimp’s and Estate Agents Association but thought a head job was a Handyman’s Special.
So, anyone else want to hear Crusader Lad’s views on Howard doing a Hawke/ Keating on the West Papuans?
Worm tried to auction off a dump in Dalgetty Street.
“Spacious interior!” he hollered, head up his arse.
“Room to move!”
Reason is the devil’s harlot. – Martin Luther
Errr…no.
Raising your children under Americanism or any other principles other than true Christianity is child abuse. – Robert T. Lee, Society for the Practical Establishment of the Ten Commandments
Religious education is a form of child abuse. – Richard Dawkins
God wants you to have nice things. – Pastor Brian Houston, Hillsong Church
Worm, leave google (and your doodle) alone.
You’re a puppet.
A nothing.
A terrified little worm.
I wouldn’t even laugh at you, poor bastard.
Because you’ve nothing to say, poor bastard.
Cringing dog.
Just remember, there’s nothing wrong with small minds as long as those minds are thinking the right things.
Fuck Hillsong church. And the Salvation Army.
And you too, you blathering little meatball.
People’s faith is none of your business, you cracked up little c–t. I don’t preach to you, don’t preach to me, you vomit.
And that’s it. That’s all.
As Christians, you know what it’s like to feel victimized. As God’s chosen people, there are always others in more populated but less beloved religions than yours taking potshots at you.
Just remember what Jesus told you. When attacked, turn the other cheek. When you do that, you can see who’s coming from the other direction and get ready to shoot them. Jesus was full of very practical military advice.
The Passion of the Christ is one of the biggest grossing films ever – in more senses than one.
The very earliest Christian writings come from Paul and others. The writings of these earliest Christians, however, paint a dramatically different picture of Jesus from that of the later gospels.
The early Christians corroborate virtually nothing that we have previously taken for granted from the gospels!
None of the very first Christians know anything about an annunciation to Mary by the angel Gabriel, a virgin birth, star of Bethlehem, wise men, Herod, slaughter of the innocents or the flight into Egypt. In fact they know nothing at all of a Mary, Joseph, Bethlehem or Nazareth. They know of no disciples, friends or earthly enemies nor of any baptism by John in the Jordan. They don’t mention or quote any teachings, parables or sermons or morals; in fact they attribute no ethical instruction to the earthly Jesus at all.
Nor do they seem to know of any healings of the blind or lame or lepers; neither do they mention any of Jesus’ especially spectacular miracles like bringing the dead to life, changing water to wine, feeding five thousand, stilling the storm or walking on water.
They know of no temptation in the wilderness or dialogue with the Devil, no exorcisms nor evil spirits falling down in fear before Jesus.
The early Christians again know nothing of the times, places or circumstances of the crucifixion. They mention nothing of Gethsemane, no betrayal by Judas (they merely say Jesus ‘was delivered up’ for crucifixion), no denial by Peter or the disciples, no trials, no scourging, no judgement by Pilate, no Roman soldiers, no Golgotha or vigil at the cross, no last words – nothing!
Paul appears to have believed that after three days Jesus ascended directly to heaven without any intervening time on earth, and he certainly doesn’t cite any empty tomb.
If the very first Christians knew so little about Jesus, what possible grounds do we have for believing he ever existed?
We holy men have a duty to conceal the facts and lie to our congregations, under oath if necessary, perjuring ourselves to help disseminate the True Faith. – “Saint” Clement in a letter preserved and discovered in a remote monastery by professor Morton Smith
Mr Worm, one last thing; don’t believe what you read. Not even in the scriptures, because it isn’t very practical.
If anyone ever slaps you, slap back, or run, but don’t turn the other way; don’t take your eye off them, because it’s 99% you’ll cop a haymaker.
I’ve never read the bible, I rarely go into a church, and I don’t preach, but I do get into a shit when people like you go out of their way to upset other people for no other reason than bravado.
Okay. you’re a bigshot. We’re all impressed.
But the truth is, if the latte set peddled Christianity, so would you.
silkworm: “…the earliest Christians… corroborate virtually nothing…”
But why would anybody trouble themselves to ‘corroborate’ common knowledge, within their personal correspondence? Do you bother to ‘corroborate’ all of digital information theory, each time you post on the internet? The very earliest Christians mostly knew each other personally. Why ‘corroborate’ the family photo album?
R.H., God love ya! “If salt should lose its savor, wherewith shall it be salted?” Thankfully we’re not in any such danger, with your estimable self on the prowl!
Happy (actual, historical, non-pagan-derived, hallelujah-He-is-risen-style) Easter to one and all. Even you doubters.
Easter was originally a northern hemisphere spring equinox celebration, just as Christmas was a northern hemisphere winter solstice celebration. In Australia, we should be celebrating Christmas in our winter and Easter in our spring. Celebrating Easter now goes against our native instincts.
silkworm: “…Easter was originally a… spring equinox celebration…”
No. Easter is the feast of the Resurrection — the actual, historical celebration of the risen Christ, and of His message of salvation to all mankind. The fact that people also used to celebrate ’spring equinox’ just goes to show that people have been around for a good, long while… If the two holidays co-incide in human calendrical time, well… since the earth goes round the sun on a regular basis, that’s a good argument that folks mark ‘time’ on a regular basis, right? So you’ve proven that calendars exist, and that people use ‘em as they see fit. Anything more than that?
Next you’ll be telling me I celebrate Independence Day ‘cos it’s something to do with Midsummer…
Once more: Happy Easter, everybody!
JPZ, I’ll just state this fact, as something I’ve noticed; your scholarship is astounding. The most astounding I’ve ever encountered. Anywhere.
R.H.
I’m not religious so to me it’s the festival of chocolate.
Hi rh lovely to see you in fine form.
Yes, Happy Death To Jesus Week!
‘cos if we didn’t knock him off, it’d leave most Christian sects looking pretty pointless symbol and ritualwise.
(By the by, now listening right now to “Hanging Around” by The Stranglers)
Jayzus on a dayglo pogo stick, I just realised the Stranglers’ reference would mean nothing to those that haven’t heard the song in question. I just assumed everyone has the same cultural xyz axis as I.
Anyway here are the words to ‘Hanging Around’.
Big girl in the red dress
She’s just trying to impress us
And she’s got the barley fever
But she doesn’t make a sound
She’s just hanging around
Down the Court Road early
With the hustlers big ‘n burly
There’s a million of ‘em selling
And the buyers can be found
They’re just hanging around
(chorus)
Christ has told his mother
Christ he told her not to bother
‘Cos he’s alright in the city
‘Cos he’s high above the ground
He’s just hanging around
One of ‘em comes closer
Got a monkey on his shoulder
And the monkey’s getting grinner
But his eyes are on the ground
He’s just hanging around
I’m moving in the Coleherne
With the leather all around me
And the sweat is getting steamy
But their eyes are on the ground
They’re just hanging around
Yeah well yes, it’s not exactly Blake or Larkin – but when you combine the words with the crisp Brit army officer vocals, gothic seaside resort organ and sleazy froggy bass of the quoted song (elements which also permanate much of their other ditties), I think it becomes clear Hugh and co were mining in their own initimable way that same strange seamy, seedy, steamy seam of English transcendental disgust that lit up Bill and Phil too.
Time now for The Seeds I feel.
Regarding the supermarket specials, sharp-eyed customers might have noted Mylanta on special, for all those who go overboard on the, er, chocolate.
Happy Bunnies!
Happy New Year to LPers. It’s new year time celebration time. Do anybody know whos new year time it is ?
Happy festival of chocolate, and, what GregM said. Now for something completely different:
From Making Light:
As Kayjay put it, “[A]pparently the conservatives even need instructions on how to be rude visitors.â€? She was referring to the quite stunningly something-or-other How to Handle an Open Thread on Liberal Blogs*, by one Butler Thomas…
Here’s the post on Open Threads for RWDBs (or wingnuts, as the Americans call them.)
The comments are interesting – unfortunately, just as RWDBs can come into “liberal” blogs, those damn libruls can infest his comment thread, too, dang it.
Evil Pundit, G***** B*** (Don’t want to invoke the spirit), Joe Cambria and others should take note…
Strangely enough, “AnnieAngel”, who shares the same blog, has posted a genuinely hilarious, although not original, list of ways to be a Good Christian Wife. If you read the comments on that one, you’ll see half of the commenters take it literally! Oh, those loveable murrikins!
Brilliant links, Helen, thankee kindly. The “infiltrate open threads” one in particular is classic.
Happy Buddhist New Year!
‘Big girl in the red dress’, Nabakov you’re playing my song.
Classic Air Piano tracks by degree of difficulty:
Beginner: Let it Be – The Beatles.
Intermediate: Celluloid Heroes – The Kinks.
Advanced: Hymn to Freedom – Oscap Peterson.
Don’t Try This at Home: The Koln Concert – Keith Jarrett.
Another vomit inducing Hugh Mackay article. What a nosey parker- moralistic little prick the guy is. Perhaps some of us are making the choices we are because
1) we know we’re going to live longer
2) we know we’re going to have longer working lives and there’s no hurry
3) we can afford to?
what’s wrong with lifelong learning? what’s wrong with quitting a job because you’re bored? (I did it once)
http://smh.com.au/news/opinion/few-takers-for-true-adulthood/2006/04/13/1144521461740.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2
EVER wondered why so many young adults are still living at home with their parents? Puzzled by the plummeting birthrate among the under-30s? Impatient for your 29-year-old offspring to get around to marriage?
And why are they so willing to switch jobs, or courses of study, even when everything seems to be going well for them? Have they no interest in settling down?
The answer is in their mantra: “Thirty is the new 20.” Straight out of the mouths of today’s twentysomethings comes a truth that not only helps to explain their behaviour, but also sheds some light on yet another trend reshaping our society: we seem intent on slowing down our rate of passage through the life cycle.
The rising generation of young adults is a particularly instructive example of the trend, stretching adolescence well into their 20s. Adulthood, with all its tedious connotations of responsibility and a clear sense of direction, is being kept at bay for as long as possible …
The emotional growth rate of this generation is being retarded partly by their own parents’ determination to be the youngest generation ever to hit middle age …
Well, here’s the upshot of Howard’s disgusting capitulation on West Papua:
* the entire Australian mainland will be excised from the migration zone
* Any and all arrivals will be transported to Manus Island or Nauru for processing
* They’ll be denied settlement in Australia, even where found to be refugees
* Australia will collobarate with Indonesian navy, potentially in returning boats. This is a clear breach of our non-refoulement obligations, and the lowest we have ever sunk. Worse than 2001-2.
Essentially, we have changed our law because the Indonesian government didnt like it. When the going got tough, Howard bent over and coughed. Its a policy of pure complicity with the gross, ongoing, systematic abuse of West Papuans by the Indonesian state.
Lets call it what it is: appeasement.
This is even worse than the ALP complicity with the New Order regime over Timor – at least Hawke/ Keating let the Timorese stay; albeit on dodgy extended bridging visas.
I want to know what RWDBs think about this. As these are now Christians fleeing oppression, not *scary Muslims* fleeing the Taliban and Saddam, maybe you’ll be some use to us when we hit the streets, like we did over Timor in 1999.
Has it ever been clearer than today? International pressure and domestic uproar, here on the streets – led to INTERFET. Face the facts: DFAT and Cabinet never wanted to go in, we forced it.
And this is it, all over again: business as usual – an ALP/LPA appeasement consensus and only the Left protesting.
Here’s what Howard should have done, if he had any balls: no change – Australian law operates, we dont bow to pressure, cease all military cooperation with Kopassus until the TNI is under civilian control, and the human rights situation in Papua is demonstrably improved, with adequate local autonomy, a la Aceh model of last year. This fits in neat as a glove with Indonesia’s own struggle to reform, is practical, even helpful – and it would work.
This is, broadly speaking, the Left posiiton. And frankly, unlike the ALP and Coalition, we were on the money last time with Timor. Why not pick a winner for a change?
JahTeh: “Happy Buddhist New Year!”
Ah, but is not this ‘year’ business merely an illusion? Or ‘happy,’ for that matter? The veil of Samsara quite engulfs you…
Gummo: “classic air piano tracks…”
What, no Elton John?
The hardest track of all, of course, would be John Cage’s “3 mins. 33 secs.”
Air piano?
Glenn Gould plays Bach (with obligatory humming)…
Actually Keith Jarrett does that too
Jason,
Both your air piano suggestions, I think, would be classed “Don’t try this at home”.
As for Hugh Mackay, as far as I’m concerned, he’s usually fair game but a bit of a sitting duck. I was going to provide a link, but it appears to be broken, so there goes my moment of shameless self promotion for the day.
A make-believe holiday invented in 1966 to promote black pride, a bit like modern Christmas or Easter, which were invented to promote comercialist pride. However Easter and Christmas have done far more for the Comercialist religion than Kwanzaa ever did for building pride in African American heritige.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwanzaa
Jesus died so I can eat choclate eggs!
Zen Master Rama, I am happy, tis the weekend of chocolate and time stretches to accomodate the amount of chocolate available.
Well, here’s some good news anyway: New domestic light technology, which doesnt heat up like bulbs do; more energy efficient
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4906188.stm
Not true in the case of East Timor, Lefty. One of the significant sources of support for East Timor’s independence came from members of the RSL who had memories of the sacrifices made by the East Timorese in protecting and supporting Australian soldiers on Timor in WW2. The old soldiers got pretty worked up about the debt they felt we owed to the East Timorese for that and about the way the East Timorese were being treated by the Indonesians.
Also the Catholic Church, not an organisation that could be readily characterised as being of the Left, provided significant support for East Timorese aspirations.
True Greg – ‘the Left and significant elements of civil society’ would be more accurate. The Sparrow force diggers were of course excellent advocates all through late 99.
Im really making a point about the “common sense” ALP/ Coalition consensus on Indonesia being anything but – in view of its apparent resurgence.
Our major parties, and the entire “centre” of mainstream policy work (eg DFAT, ANU) got it all horribly wrong from day one. Any notions of a post-99 rethink seem to sadly misbegotten.
4′33″ would be the easiest!
What about Mandy’s assertion (4 times) that Australia won’t let refugees “dictate the terms” of Australia’s processing policy? Geez, and I thought they were desperate and powerless… (didn’t notice Kerry O’Brien laughing).
Naomi, is it cold in the Mountains? Suze and I and Oscar were thinking of swinging past next month…
“This is, broadly speaking, the Left posiiton. And frankly, unlike the ALP and Coalition, we were on the money last time with Timor. Why not pick a winner for a change? ”
What???? the hell is in your chocolates!! The left was in a winner last time with East Timor”!!!!!!!!!!!
..It was the Lefts own god that sold out East Timor..remember him (GW)..the Lefts own “Keating the twat” who was first up with puckered lips in the labour party “conga line of suck holes” to Suharto. It was the the influence of the left that so severely reduced the capability of the defence force that it very nearly failed in carry out the most basic of missions in country less than one hour of the Australian main land..and you claim you were on the money .. the only thing you are on is low qaulity drugs
Naomi, if you ever do see the error of your evil ways steer clear of the Seventh Day Adventists. They don’t allow coffee drinking at all.
It’s an enormous laugh when the latte set try acting dumber than they actually are. I see them tittering at little tables along Fitzroy Street and Bridge Road, all having had their showers that morning and tizzed themselves up to go on show. And I see them in tarted up public servant pubs, raising glasses of wine to their gobs as though there’s thousands watching. So stiff, they are. So elegant. And so predictable. They oppose John Howard, George Bush, and Jesus Christ.
They support Aborigines, Refugees, Immigration. Which doesn’t affect them because they’ve never had to compete with migrants for low-paid jobs and cheap housing.
They hate smoking. No one should smoke. They believe that colonic irrigation promotes high thought, and accordingly that every male over the age of twelve should be colonically irrigated every Saturday. They believe they’re something new, but they’re nothing new at all. They believe they’re different to their parents, but they’re just like them. Because nothing has changed. Nothing ever changes at all. The focaccia has replaced the cucumber sandwich, that’s all. They’re the same old crowd, back again. Different hairdos, different clothes, sunglasses in place of parasols, but it’s the same old crowd; the same bourgeois economic class. You never get rid of them. The well off spivs occupying St Kilda now are the same class of moneybags that lived there one hundred years ago. With poverty in between. Meanwhile they gasbag on about dispossession. What a joke. Well when it comes to that they do a bloody fine job of it themselves.
Yes Russ, the Left supported Timorese independence from day one. The centre and right in Australian politics sold them down the river to Suharto.
(PS Get with the program – the ALP isnt ‘the Left’.)
Thanks Munn.
Nice to recieve happy greetings on this holiday weekend from the sympathisors, believers or no, and greetings returned, but sadly amazing to read so much venomous or, at least, sarcastic unbelief being espoused on this thread on this most important remembrance day for Christians, particularly from the unstoppable and mysteriously unstopped silkworm (who’s monitoring this thread anyway? on hoilday I suppose, oh well!).
I can just see the worm’s face, like some warped, contorted, deaf-era Goya-esque character, in the front row of despisers crying “Crucify him, crucify him’ as Jesus is charged with no crime anyone can legally nail him for, but every crime they can manufacture out of nothing, and ol’ silkworm, he’s there accusing with the best of ‘em, still – after 2,000 years of it, and, yet, he just doesn’t grasp it. I almost fell sorry for the foolishness of his rebellious heart. And so brave to dare to so openly and publicly oppose the beliefs of Christians. Still, unlike Mohammed’s Allah, God and Son can handle themselves, so we’ll let silkworm have his day.
The Christian name for the festival weekend is ‘pasche’, which means ‘the passion’, and refers to the death and resurrection of Jesus, whihc is the single most significant event on the Christian calender. Easter is indeed a pagan festiival which falls on the same weekend. Chocolate eggs are part of the pagan thing, but hey, we’re not too dogmatically, rigidly religious, are we, to enjoy a few slabs of chocolate? Enjoy!
Pasche weekend greetings, all persons!
Was there something wrong with my comments Moderator? I can’t remember being under moderaton before, and my comments have not appeared. Please explain!
Which comments, FaceLift? I just got here but can’t see any in moderation.
Well, I sent some comments a few minutes ago, and the box came up with ‘under moderation’ or something similar, and failed to appear. Lost in transit.
I have a feeling it’s also Iranian new year.
Ok, found it, and it’s liberated!
I must confess I didn’t like the anti-Christian stuff either. But I haven’t been around.
Thanks Kim. Poor ‘ol silkworm needs liberation. Must be terrible having to slide around with all that negativity clogging up the silk channels.
I feel sorry for Richard Dawkins as well http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/04/13/thursday-salon-easter-edition/#comment-64113
Does he really think that all religious people go around looking for ways to wipe other people out for having a different belief. Wouldn’t be many people around if that was true. Funny how people with so much apparent brain power and knowledge can be so short on common sense and wisdom.
RH, I know you were upset with silkworm, and quite rightly, but, about your reference to Hillsong, I’d just like to assure you that Hillsong folk are really top people, and do an amazing amount of good in their community, despite what the media says.
To answer Shaun’s question about fasting and Friday, here’s some background:
And some more history.
The Orthodox Churches have a much stricture fasting regimen during Lent, and don’t eat meat on any Wednesdays or Fridays.
Fasting is a widespread practice in most religious traditions, as you can see from belief.net and Wikipedia.
You know, it happens that I was cooking up some lamb this evening, when I noted it was smelt a wee bit off.
So I settled on prawns instead. Mmmm. Prawns.
Thus, by chance, I have abstained.
I’m also a seafood fancier!
Well then Kim, when next in Melbourne, do visit Claypots. In St Kilda, or Fitzroy.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, mmm.
http://www.miettas.com/archive/guide2000/claypots.html
Lefty Elitist sheds a tear or two for the West Papuans then says:
“Here’s what Howard should have done, if he had any balls: no change – Australian law operates, we dont bow to pressure, cease all military cooperation with Kopassus until the TNI is under civilian control, and the human rights situation in Papua is demonstrably improved, with adequate local autonomy, a la Aceh model of last year. This fits in neat as a glove with Indonesia’s own struggle to reform, is practical, even helpful – and it would work.”
Actually your proposal would:
(1) triple JI membership,
(2) lead to an upsurge in TNI massacres in West Papua,
(3) see more Christian churches burnt in Ambon, Poso and Sulawesi,
(4) mean that any Australian setting foot in Indonesia would be a dead duck, and
(5) boost the Indonesian public’s support for populist Islamofascist political groups.
Realpolitik severely limits what a low to middling power like Australia can do. Indonesia has us by the balls; they know it and so do Australian Governments both Left and Right.
I feel very sorry for the West Papuans, but we cannot afford to help them other than through quiet diplomacy.
Bollocks Steve, that’s pissweak appeasement talk. Fact one: the Indonesian security state is exclusively designed to oppress civilians, and couldnt go two rounds with a revolving door. See Timor.5000 Falintil troops, led by about 250 well-armed vets of the Portuguese colonial wars sent 11,000 TNI home in a body bag over 24 years. The TNI basically shot civilans, then ran a mile from the armed resistance.
As for decentralisation, theyve just done it, last year, in Aceh, and they can do it in Papua. SBY is on the record as being favourable – but he faces stiff, stiff resistance from the TNI, who make a bucketload of money from the Freeport mine. Australia isnt helping democractise Indonesia one bit by rolling over on this. Not one bit. There is no ‘quiet diplomacy’ – this is pure capitulation.
Lefty Elitist is dead right – Indonesia does not have us “by the balls” by any stretch of the imagination, unless you believe dole recipients have Centrelink “by the balls”.
Indonesia is a pathetic, near-bankrupt, mendicant state with questionable control over its claimed territory. Australia has no dog in the fight between the TNI and the Papuans. We have no moral obligation to give a cent in foreign aid to Indonesia, or anyone else for that matter, and no real-politik reason either. All our military aid is likely to do is strengthen the hand of the TNI and escalate atrocities in the outer provinces, while reducing the need for the Indonesian government to be accountable to its actual constituents. This is beside the fact that there is no justification for increased tax-aggression against productive Australians to support a semi-military regime.
“Realpolitik severely limits what a low to middling power like Australia can do.”
Reality alert! Australia has the 13th largest GDP in the world. We can do whatever we damn well want, so long as it precludes aggression against anyone else (it appears we can even get away with aggression so long as the US is in on it – but preferably we shouldn’t do so).
Christmas has non-Christian roots. The Bible doesn’t say Jesus was born on December 25. Luke’s description of flocks in open fields suggests he was born during Spring lambing. However, Luke’s gospel cannot be taken as gospel; for when it is compared with Matthew’s account, all kinds of contradictions arise.
Matthew’s acount mentions Bethlehem, while Luke’s mentions Nazareth. Luke is clearly wrong. There was no Nazareth in the time of Jesus, who probably never existed anyway – as many scholars have noted, a search for an historical Jesus is futile.
The earliest gospel written was that of Mark, and that contained no account of the Nativity. When Matthew and Luke came along, they made up their Nativity accounts out of whole cloth.
There was no star in the east. The Magi were moving west, so if the Magi had followed a moving star, it would have been at their backs!
Matthew and Luke also had to make up resurrection accounts as well, because there is no resurrection account in Mark.
The early Church neither knew nor cared what Jesus’ birthday was: Origen and Arnobius thought only pagans should celebrate the gods’ birthdays, and other Church Fathers thought Jesus was born on variouis dates in January, April, or May.
The first Christmas masses were celebrated on January 8, but in 336 A.D. Christmas was moved to December 25, the Roman Winter Solstice, to coincide with the birthday festivals of the Phrygian, Persian and Roman sun-gods and the national Roman holiday, Saturnalia.
The gospel story of Jesus has many characteristics of a solar religion, including the 12 apostles, who represented the 12 signs of the zodiac.
If you do an historical search for any of the apostles, that search will be futile as well. There is no evidence for the existence of any of the 12 apostles either.
Christianity is a house of cards that falls down rather quickly under the most cursory scrutiny.
Thanks Kim for the links and info.
I was surpised at all the cars on the waterfront at Gosfrod yesterday. Until I remembered there was a fish and chips shop nearby and it was doing a roaring trade.
Even for an atheist like myself, the idea that Jesus never existed seems prohibitively unlikely. As far as I can see we either had a cult leader who the stories, however corrupted are based on, or a decision by a small group to make up a hoax and propogate this new version of their new religon. We know from our own times that religous leaders can draw in followers to believe they perform miracles. That Jesus was such a person who had, fortunately, a fairly benign message that took on seems vastly more likely than a bunch of guys cooking up a hoax.
I want a new job. Anyone have any interesting work in Sydney?
Given the interest already shown by friend Liam, I thought I’d wander over here and share this quite exciting development with you all.
That’s Comrade to you, brother Rob, fellow-worker.
…
And it’s hardly a new development, I believe bits of it have been kicked around for years.
And as I said chez vous, Rob, there’s nothing there that social democrats haven’t been banging on about for the last century.
That’s rather my point, comrade. The left returning to its roots.
From Rob’s blog:
“Christ, what a relief. It was a long time coming. For how long have we had to endure the left’s hijacking by the Pilgers, the Fisks, the Chomskys, the Road to Surfdoms, the Larvatus Prodeos, the jackals that tore apart the carcase of one we once loved and left it for the wolves who would devour us?”
!
Good God, Comrade Foot, talk about hyperbole!!
That’s Comrade Rob’s problem with TEH LEFT – we’re not hyperbolic enough!
Memo to LEFTIST COMMAND:
Fellow hijackers, have we settled on the amount of the ransom that the MANIFESTO COLLECTIVE will have to pay for the return of TEH LEFT?
silkworm, the discrediting of the “search for the historical Jesus” is a denial of the idea that “what Jesus really said” could be reconstructed, not that Jesus existed… Just sayin…
See:
http://www.abu.nb.ca/Courses/NTIntro/LifeJ/HistoryQuest.htm
Silkworm..you’re such an ass.
Coming from the viewpoint of a decidedly nonbeliever.
CLASSIFIED
-LEFT EYES ONLY-
Agent Kimberella
Surely you are aware that ransom-seeking is an inappropriate commodification of the class struggle and not to be indulged. Manifestism is furthermore a symptom of social-democrat deviationism and all care should be taken even in jokes. Remember Lenin’s thought: hyperbole is the worst thing EVA!!!1!!
The leadership at
MoscowNewtown Centre are suggesting your immediate recall. We in the Ministry have suggested instead that you undertake serious self-criticism and report in full.ENDS
In other news, Rafe doesn’t want to take Australian labour law back to the 19th century but to the eighteenth century!!!
As Lenin said, Comrade Liam:
All intellectuals and those wearing glasses will be forced (along with capitalist running dogs) to repent publicly.
I further remind you, Comrade Liam, that Lenin and Stalin organised robberies to support the party.
Deviationist! Splittist! Ultra-Leftist! Mahknovite!
It is Buddhist New Year, called Songkran in Thailand and Cambodia, and celebrated by people throwing water and powder over each other. It is extremely difficult to go through it in Bangkok without getting thoroughly drenched several times. Farangs are particularly targeted. The Khmers are much more decorous.
In defence of Manifestism:
Do have to admire the principles and statements.
Sigh.
True believers do put the kibbosh on the best concepts.
Bit more of a Trotskyist here.
The unity of
labourTEH LEFT is the hope of the world!Well, that was his quote, written in exile, wasn’t it?
Which one, Another Kim?
Your last quote…sounded like Leon T while in exile.
Competition: pick the Marxist author!
Don’t look at the link -
http://marx2mao.phpwebhosting.com/Stalin/RDSDD26.html
There’s no Apostles? Then what are those pillars down on the Great Ocean Road, you dork!
Worm, I’d hate to have a pedantic little head like yours.
You need to keep your hand off your stick for a while.
The unity of labour… I think it was more of a 19th century slogan? But I wouldn’t be surprised if Trotsky appropriated it.
Be nice, Chairman.
OK Kim..Martin Luther King..am I right?
RH, silkworm must drop his racist and hateful across the board attitudes.
He’s so boring besides.
Don’t talk to me now, I have to go out.
(Big date)
Back later.
-Nice Robert.
You’re right Another Kim, but who cares what he does, he’s a nothing, the poor bum.
Back later.
R.H.
Well, the eighteenth century is at least an advance on the seventeeth, which is where WorkChoices puts us in relation to negotiation of working conditions above those allowed in the act. Just trottin’ out the hobby horse again.
No one else is doing the pick the marxist game.
And I didn’t click the link. I’m playing fair.
I looked now and I don’t imagine it was Uncle Joe you are quoting. It’s someone else quoting him.
Tell, Kimberella. Tell.
Ho Chi Minh?
Hey Laura..tonight I am reading The Sacred Willow. My next trip is Vietnam.
I’ll spoil that confession by telling that I’m listening to Harry Nielson at the moment.
Just damn multi culti right now.
I’ve been to Vietnam a couple of times, Another Kim. It’s fantastic. Where / when / how long are you going? Harry Nielson is alright too! Although the only thing of his I know is “Everybody’s Talkin’” from Midnight Cowboy.
My trip is in the planning stages. Your advice would be invaluable.
If all you know of Harry is what you’ve said…I’d be pleased to send you more. Or look up a best of. It’ll make you smile.
What time of year do you plan to go, Another Kim? Have you ever been to SE Asia before?
Cristy lived in Laos until very recently. It’s a pity she’s away just now.
I’ll see if anyone else wants to play before I reveal THE UNBELIEVABLE TRUTH, Another Kim.
I got it!!!
Ronald Reagan!
I don’t have a time of year planned yet, Laura. And I have not been to SE Asia yet. This will be my first.
Somehow, it is calling me. Can’t wait.
About Vietnam – has anyone else heard the story that Uncle Ho’s body in Ha Noi is fake? A Vietnamese person I was chatting to in Ha Noi said that a friend of hers was associated with the mausoleum and that the “Uncle Ho” on display is not the real one, as the climate played havoc with the real one’s body! I don’t know if she was playing a joke on us.
Yo, all you PhD graduates – how did you deal with the post-PhD malaise? I’m finding it difficult but am becoming much happier with the idea that you can do all sorts of different things in your life and there’s no problem with having a change of career.
No doubt some LP readers would have recently read about a technological development that could result in much greater energy efficiency in lighting – the link to the story in Nature is:
http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060410/full/060410-8.html
The first paras of this story:
“The traditional light bulb’s days could be numbered, according to scientists who have taken an important step towards making white organic light-emitting diodes (OLEDs) commercially viable.
They expect that, for the wealthy at least, it could be just a few years before rooms are lit by gently glowing thin panels. The lights should be ultra efficient, saving on energy bills and helping to lower energy consumption.”
If it comes to fruition, this could result in significantly lower costs to individuals and organisations, and also lower greenhouse gas emissions. At first glance this looks like a potentially very beneficial development.
silkworm, in reply to your strange ideas about the authenticity of the gospels http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/04/13/thursday-salon-easter-edition/#comment-64375
You’re correct to say that the festival of Christmas is misplaced, but since the exact date isn’t mentioned in the Bible, there’s no argument, let alone a contradiction.
However, you’re right too say that the time of his birth could not have been in European Winter, when it’s too cold for shepherds to be in the fields. Your argument only demonstrates that some religious groups have been guilty of adding pagan events to Christian celebrations, a fact that is commonly known. It proves nothing about the authenticity of the gospels, or the existence of Jesus.
Historically, Jesus was referred to by an independent non-christian Jewish historian, Josephus, which is strong evidence of his existence. The sheer number of manuscripts dated so close to the time of Jesus lends huge probability to an historical likelihood of his existence. There is better and more reliable evidence of he authenticity of the gospels and epistles, and therefore the characters named in them, than that of the writings of Socrates or Plato, and no scholar doubts their existence.
Matthew gives the birthplace of Jesus as Bethlehem, which was prophesied by Micah (5:2) over 400 years previously. Joseph was commanded to move Mary and Jesus from there to Egypt when the King Herod sought to destroy all small children born in Bethlehem. He returned with Mary and Jesus two years later to Nazareth (read all of Matthew 2 for the full story), fulfilling another prophecy that he would be called a Nazarene, hence Luke’s account of Jesus being there before returning to Bethlehem for a census.
Where you get the idea Nazareth didn’t exist is beyond me, and Luke’s account, though different in content, fits snugly with Matthew’s, giving added credence to the historical authenticity.
As for your theory on the Magi – they were in the east and they followed a star. It doesn’t say that the star was in the east. It says they were to the east of Israel when they first saw it. They were astronomers, looking for the sign of the Messiah. It seems they found it.
By the way, the present celebration is the Pasche, or Passion of Christ, which is the most important festival for all Christians. Why you’re on about Christmas I’m not sure.
The resurrection account in Mark is in chapter 16. It confirms the other accounts by Matthew, Luke and John. Four separate writers giving different views of the same unusual account would seem to be a strong argument for the probability of the event. Identical accounts might arouse suspicions of collusion. Do channels 7, 9, 10 and the ABC give exactly the same account of news events? Do you still think there’s an element of truth despite the slight differences?
The number 12 is regarded as the number of Government and Authority Biblically, and has nothing to do with solar religions. The main evidence of the existence of the Apostles of Christ comes in their own writings and in the writings of the early church fathers, some of who knew them.
It’s your so-called ‘scrutiny’ which is flawed, silkworm.
The 8th century BCE Jewish sage Micah writes about Assyrian invaders and a series of skirmishes in Samaria. He predicts (quite incorrectly as it turns out) that a ruler will arise from David’s Bethlehem and conquer Assyria.
The text of Micah 5.2, translated, actually says:
But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah who is little among the clans of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be a ruler in Israel.
‘Bethlehem Ephrathah’ here refers to the clan who are descendants from a man called Bethlehem, the son of Caleb’s second wife Ephrathah referred to in 1 Chronicles – it does not refer to a town at all!
Undeterred, Matthew subtly alters the quoted text in his own story (2.6):
And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means the most insignificant of Judah, for out of you will come forth a ruler in Israel.
What Matthew has done is change the reference to a clan to a reference to a city – but who would notice?
silkworm,
‘But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah who is little among the clans of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be a ruler in Israel.’
And you don’t suppose that, in the tradition of patriarchal leaders in the Middle east, in time a city or even nation was named after the clan leader, ie Nimrod, Nineveh, Cush, etc, etc, and, of course, Bethlehem?
Since the city exists today, has the same name, and is identified as the one described by Micah and Matthew, maybe you’re argument is showing signs of being flimsy. By the way, Matthew calls Bethlehem one of the ‘Princes’ of Judah (KJV), which shows he interpreted the prophet accurately. ‘Out of you shall come the ‘Governor’, who shall rule my people Israel’ – out of the stock of Judah in Bethlehem. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and the city of Bethlehem – a bang-on prophecy!
The ruler who arises from David’s Bethlehem is the Messiah, whose Government will be without end. Jesus is popularly identified as the Messiah, or Christ.
You’re obviously putting a lot of thought and time into attempting to disprove the authenticity of the writers of the gospels and even Israel’s prophets. I think you need to buy a decent set of Commentaries written by accepted scholars.
In versions of the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus, edited by Christians, are two passages describing Jesus. Neither is in the Jewish version of the Josephus’s Antiquities. The longer passage, the so-called Testimonium Flavianum (18:3:3), is cited by Christians as independent confirmation of Jesus’ existence and resurrection.
At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him many Jews and Gentiles. This was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of Christians, so called from him, subsists to this time. (Lardner’s translation)
The church fathers liked to quote passages that supported Christianity, yet not one of them quoted this passage in defence of Christianity until Eusebius did in the fourth century, about 330 CE, though the works of Josephus were famous.
Christian writers make no reference to Josephus’s commendation of Jesus even when it would have suited them, as they must surely have done had it existed. Origen, for example, writing long before Eusebius, quotes other parts of Josephus but not this passage. Indeed Origen, writing in about 250 CE, puzzled:
Though he [Josephus] did not admit our Jesus to be the Christ he none the less gave witness to so much righteousness in James.
Elsewhere Origen adds: “ …although [Josephus] disbelieved in Jesus as Christ.�
Plainly Origen’s version of Josephus’s works did not have the passage to which we are referring, but by 330 CE the version used by Eusebius did.
Jerome’s Latin version has the insertion but it is less assertive, rendering “He was the Messiah� by “He was believed to be the Messiah�. It shows that the text of Josephus has been altered. Who would or could have altered it? Only Christians!
The passage is amid stories about calamities that have befallen the Jews. This is not a calamity as it stands, but has been inserted instead of the original piece which may have described Jesus’ failed rebellion, if we are to concede Jesus’ existence as a rebel leader, but to concede this still requires evidence external to the gospels, and there is none.
Josephus says this man performed “wonderful works� yet fails to describe any one of them though he quotes the miracles of others.
The passage is too pro-Christian. Josephus says that Jesus was the Christ, an unlikely statement for him to have made, not only because he was a Pharisaic Jew but also because he was critical of messianic movements. Josephus, a Jew in the pay of the Roman Emperor and at his mercy as a captive, could not possibly praise a man killed, as far as the Romans knew, as a rebel and a threat to Rome. Only a Christian could write this.
To get around the obvious conclusion that the passage was forged, Christian apologists blithely assert that Josephus was a secret Christian!
For the same reasons Josephus would not have said the Christian religion was the “truth�. Josephus was effectively a prisoner of the Romans, given a privileged position because he flattered the Roman general Vespasian, who later became emperor, and because Vespasian found him useful. He would have been courting personal disaster to say that the followers of a crucified rebel told the “truth� about him when he was under the guardianship of the general who put down the massive Jewish rebellion in 68 CE.
Because the passage was evidently totally absent in early editions since otherwise it would have been quoted even in an attenuated form, we can conclude that originally Jesus was not mentioned, or that the reference was to a real Jesus but was too defamatory for Christian bishops to quote.
Because the passage sounds like the work of a Christian, it must have been added to Antiquities some time between Origen and Eusebius, when Christians got the power to edit books. After the Christians became supreme in the reign of Constantine they evidently planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus as Christ. Eusebius is one of the few Christians to admit that lying for the advancement of the church was acceptable (though Paul started it all). He most likely interpolated this passage into Josephus.
The majority of scholars since the early 1800s have rejected the entire Testimonium Flavianum as a Christian insertion, but dishonest Christian clergy and preachers still say it is genuine. They follow their masters Paul and Eusebius in using lies to propagate their own “truth�. The people fooled by this are mainly ignorant. The intelligent will cringe at the dishonesty involved and disregard Christian “evidence�.
Well, silkworm, that is a wholly speculative piece, which demonstrates nothing, since Josephus is quoted by noted scholars who don’t share the same doubtss.
Tell me, though, did you write this piece yourself, because if you did in half an hour, it’s quite impressive despite its flaws? If you didn’t write it yourself could you give us the benefit of the author’s name?
Apropos of nothing much, I take this opportunity to note that it was far less than a century after the death of Henry VIII that Shakespeare wrote a play wherein the corpulent monarch was ecstatic over the birth of a second daughter.
OK, silkworm, you’ve fallen silent.
However, the passage you posted says of Josephus’ intriguing note about Jesus, ‘The passage is too pro-Christian’. But, on the contrary it could be argued more accurately that it is more logical to accredit it to Josephus, and that he gives extremely compelling historical evidence of the existence of Jesus, and therefoe the advent of Christianity.
OK, silkworm, does this match to your piece ring any bells? http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0090MissingRecords.html or perhaps http://essenes.net/m12.htm It was accredited to a Nathaniel Lardner:
The church fathers liked to quote passages that supported Christianity, yet not one of them quoted this passage in defence of Christianity until Eusebius did in the fourth century, about 330 AD, though the works of Josephus were famous. Christian writers make no reference to Josephus’s commendation of Jesus even when it would have suited them, as they must surely have done had it existed. Origen, for example, writing long before Eusebius, quotes other parts of Josephus but not this passage. Indeed Origen, writing in about 250 AD, puzzled:
Though he [Josephus] did not admit our Jesus to be the Christ he none the less gave witness to so much righteousness in James.
Elsewhere Origen adds:
…although [Josephus] disbelieved in Jesus as Christ.
Plainly Origen’s version of Josephus’s works did not have the passage to which we are referring, but by 330 AD the version used by Eusebius did. Jerome’s Latin version has the insertion but it is less assertive, rendering “He was the Messiah� by “He was believed to be the Messiah�. It shows that the text of Josephus has been altered. Who would or could have altered it?—only Christians.
The passage is amid stories about calamities that have befallen the Jews. This is not a calamity as it stands, but has been inserted instead of the original piece which will have described Jesus’s failed rebellion—certainly a calamity.
Josephus says this man performed “wonderful works� yet fails to describe any one of them though he quotes the miracles of others.
The passage is too pro-Christian. Josephus says that Jesus was the Christ, an unlikely statement for him to have made, not only because he was a Pharisaic Jew but also because he was critical of messianic movements. Josephus, a Jew in the pay of the Roman Emperor and at his mercy as a captive, could not possibly praise a man killed—as far as the Romans knew—as a rebel and a threat to Rome. Only a Christian could write this. So, what do we find? Not that the passage was forged but, Christians declare Josephus to be a secret Christian!
For the same reasons Josephus would not have said the Christian religion was the “truth�. Josephus was effectively a prisoner of the Romans, given a privileged position because he flattered the Roman general, Vespasian, who later became emperor, and because Vespasian found him useful. He would have been courting personal disaster to say that the followers of a crucified rebel told the “truth� about him when he was under the guardianship of the general who put down the massive Jewish rebellion in 68 AD.
Stating that the sect of Christians “…subsists to this time�, implies it was written a considerable time after the events he was describing. Conceivably, such a point could have been made when Josephus wrote about 60 years later, but it would have matched the time when Eusebius wrote better.
Facelift – Magee (your first link) is aware of the Wells-Doherty Jesus-never-existed thesis but believes in the Jesus-existed-but-as-failed-Jewish-rebel thesis, much in the same manner as the Jesus Seminar does, though Magee has several differences with them. I have a difference with both Magee and the Jesus Seminar in that I subscribe to the Jesus-never-existed thesis. I have used Magee’s basic arguments, but altered those parts I disagree with to accommodate the Jesus-never-existed thesis.
To be precise I have to concede that there may have been a historical Jesus on which some of the gospel story was based, but this Jesus is so outside the timeframe of the gospels as to be consistent with the Jesus-never-existed thesis. This Jesus was Yeshu ben Pandira, who was executed and hung on a tree on the eve of the Passover ca. 70 BCE during the reign of Alexander Janneus. Ben Pandira was hated because he had studied in pagan Egypt, and he was accused of being a magician.
It’s possible ben Pandira studied with the Therapeuts, and started the Essenes when he got back to Palestine. There are some passages in the gospels which suggest an Essene influence. The gospel writers could have been confusing this historical (early first century BCE) Jesus with the ethereal Jesus of Paul.
To interrupt this theological stoush for a minute, on Rob’s manifesto, I endorse this comment by our long lost friend Fyodor.
Another interruption. I finally saw King Kong tonight over a few Hahn Vienna Reds. Way too long but such a tragic movie. What they did to Kong was wrong. And why didn’t Andy Serkis get a best actor nod? A rip off.
Oy, Kim, it’s not my manifesto. And you endorse Fyodor’s comment? You might like to read it again.
Though I agree with him, myself, about the Declaration of Independence.
You could leave a comment next time you visit just to be friendly. You won’t catch anything.
A good news, inspiring story via Mankiw’s blog
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/04/illegal-immigrant-star-student.html
Dan-el Padilla Peralta, a 21-year-old classics major at Princeton University, has risen from a childhood in homeless shelters and blighted apartments to maintain a 3.9 grade-point average. He has won prize after prize, often taking twice the typical course load. One faculty member, writing a recommendation, predicted “he will be one of the best classicists to emerge in his generation.”
Mr. Padilla stands out at Princeton for another reason: He’s an illegal immigrant. And two weeks ago, he did something few people in his shoes ever do. He turned himself in.
Mr. Padilla recently won a two-year scholarship to Oxford University in the United Kingdom. But according to longstanding immigration law, if he leaves, he can’t return to the U.S. — his home since the age of 4 — for at least 10 years….
On his Princeton application, Mr. Padilla checked a box declaring he wasn’t a U.S. citizen. Seeing him as a foreign student, a university official said he needed to return to the Dominican Republic in order to apply for a student visa required of foreign students. To find out what the consequences of going back to his home country would be, Mr. Padilla spoke with a lawyer arranged by Prep for Prep, a New York program that helps minority kids who are college-bound. He told Princeton that if he went to the Dominican Republic he wouldn’t be allowed back into the U.S.
The university ultimately overlooked his immigration status and gave him a full scholarship, consisting of financial-aid grants that didn’t include federally funded programs. Princeton “doesn’t take documentation status into account when making admission decisions,” says a spokeswoman for the university. She says Princeton has enrolled fewer than half a dozen illegal immigrants in the past four years.
“He could have been from the moon and I would have admitted him,” says Fred Hargadon, dean of admissions at Princeton at the time Mr. Padilla applied.
Good, Jason, but not quite hyperbole. Needs work.
Seriously though, kudos to all concerned.
I gather that the prestige universities in the states are all extremely keen to admit students from the moon. When I first read that most of the coeducational snooty unis have gender quotas – because otherwise they’d have more women than men – I was kind of disturbed to say the least. But “diversity” is a very big deal with the upper level unis, especially the ones (like Princeton) that have kept out Jews and other groups in the past.
http://11d.typepad.com/blog/2006/03/man_quotas.html
Rob, to be fair, you posted the link to your own thread here.
I’ll certainly leave a comment when I next visit.
If it was honourable, it probably wasn’t “Left�.
Maybe I’m being too nuanced, but those scare quotes suggest that Fyodor was making an implied distinction between the Left (honourable) and TEH LEFT (dishonourable but imaginary).
Adds – that Euston Manifesto is a positive embarassment. And wot about the platform sweepers then?
silkworm,
Thanks for finally giving your source. You also lifted word for word an earlier argument from http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/matthew.htm in another part of this thread http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/04/13/thursday-salon-easter-edition/#comment-64496 The site quoted has links to the infamously liberal ‘Bishop’ Spong.
It would be helpful and curteous if you let us know the sources you are quoting. It’s interesting to note how inaccurate that last argumant is, and incredible to miss Mark’s account of the resurrection, which is clear as day, and can be confirmed merely by reading chapter 16.
Try coming up with some points of your own.
facelift, go and wash your mouth out.
Spong was no liberal, He wasn’t a christian indeed he couldn’t even be labelled a deist.
silkworm,
Please do not copy material from other websites and pass them off as your own comments. In future ensure that any material is properly attributed via a link as well as using the blockquote tag.
BBJC,
Mouth dutifully washed! Gurgle gurgle! Aaaaah! That’s better!
Alternate views on the Eustonians from CT. One at the top and third one down:
http://www.crookedtimber.org/author/chris-bertram/
Laura says: “When I first read that most of the coeducational snooty unis have gender quotas – because otherwise they’d have more women than men – I was kind of disturbed to say the least.”
Do you oppose all types of affirmative action, or is this a special case?
Why is it that females are now outperforming males by a significant margin in much the of Western world in scholastic achievement?
FaceLift. Well done.
I note that one of the signers of the Euston Manifesto is Luke Foley. By any chance is this the ALP Left’s Luke Foley? Liam?
Say what is happening with TV programming this weekend. We’ve had The Passion and the Ten Commandments on the tube the past few evenings for some reason. What about ‘The Life of Brian”?
In all the talk about the religious significance of Easter and the importance of chocolate, no-one has mentioned the moon. Easter just doesn’t happen without a full moon. We made a trip to the mountain last night (it’s all of 5 minutes drive) and the moon was magnificent. Pity about the 5 inches of rain they had at Byron Bay.
My Mom mentioned the rain at Byron as well tonight Brian (they live up at Grafton). It is not a Blues Fest though unless it pours down.
The waning moon was beautiful tonight on the Central Coast. Hanging low on the sky, large and yellow
The mountain? Brian, you jest, methinks
The food at the restaurant (for wedding receptions etc) is quite good.
Sacha, it is a right-sized mountain in relation to the lights of Brisbane whereas Mt Lofty in Adelaide makes the city remote.
We went for the food, actually, it being our anniversary and it was good.
Just on the moon, can any of the clever people who read this blog explain the following from Wikipedia?
If it’s not coincidental I wonder what is going on.
Steve, I’m totally against US colleges turning away higher qualified female applicants than male applicants because they feel that 57% women 43% men is an undesirable gender mix. As far as I can make out it has nothing to do with classroom dynamics or anything related to actual education, it’s to do with sport, socialising and residential college social life, and because the colleges in question don’t want to get a reputation as being feminine institutions.
I don’t see this as affirmative action in favour of men, actually – men aren’t under-represented in US higher education overall. I don’t think you can compare it with affirmative action in favour of real religious and ethnic minorites, which I do support.
Many women, when not being exposed to artificial nighttime lighting, find that their menstrual cycles occur in rhythm with the lunar cycle.
Sounds like bollocks to me Brian. There is really nothing to link the moon with any kind of human behaviour or activity. http://skepdic.com/fullmoon.html
However, the light of the moon is a very minor source of light in most women’s lives, and is no more likely than the moon’s gravitational force to have a significant effect on a woman’s ovulation. Furthermore, the average menstrual cycle is 28 days but varies from woman to woman and month to month, while the length of the lunar month is a consistent 29.53 days.* Some of us have noticed that these cycles are not identical. Furthermore, it would seem odd that natural selection would favor a method of reproduction for a species like ours that depended on the weather. Clouds are bound to be irregularly and frequently blocking moonlight, which would seem to hinder rather than enhance our species’ chance for survival.
Some mythmakers believe that long ago women all bled in sync with the moon, but civilization and indoor electric lighting (or even the discovery of fire by primitive humans) have disturbed their rhythmic cycle. This theory may seem plausible until one remembers that there are quite a few other mammals on the planet that have not been affected by firelight or civilization’s indoor lighting and whose cycles aren’t in harmony with the moon. In short, given the large number of types of mammals on our planet, one would expect that by chance some species’ estrus and menstrual cycles would harmonize with lunar cycles (e.g., the lemur). It is doubtful that there is anything of metaphysical significance in this.
If you google the issue you’ll find this myth popular with these types:
Women are connected to the moon by our blood, our hormones and our souls.
The first step in claiming the gifts of our menstrual cycle is to become re-acqainted with Mother Moon. Putting aside all the scientific phenomena of the way the Moon affects the earths tides, weather, animals, fluids and moods, symbolically the Moon has a lot to teach us.
http://www.menstruation.com.au/periodpages/mooncycles.html
Just the same old need to find patterns where none exist and cosmic significance where there is none.
Amanda, I agree with your last statement. We have pattern seeking brains. Also, as stated in the piece you link to it just takes a few anecdotes to start a myth. There would be a significant minority of women who menstruate roughly (say or -7 days) in sync with the moon.
The article states:
Not worth any research money I suspect. It was a curiosity I’d heard of but is probably not worth any more brain sapce. Thanks!
The Archbishop of Canterbury today denounced what he called the conspiracy theory behind the interest in The Da Vinci Code and The Gospel of Judas.
I am not going to defend or debunk The Da Vinci Code. That is too big a topic. I will just say here that the archbishop’s comments are strange, because the charge against Dan Brown has been led by the Catholic Church. It’s now very late for the Protestants to weigh in on this debate.
However, the topic of Judas deserves some attention.
According to the gospels, Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, but, like many parts of the gospel stories, this motif is stolen from pagan sources.
According to Plato (Defence of Socrates), some of Socrates’ followers offered to pay 30 pieces of silver for his release, in spite of Socrates’ own desire to remain true to his principles.
There are other thefts from the life and death of Socrates, but these do not relate to the story of Judas, so I will not pursue them.
The name Judas is probably borrowed from the author of The Gospel of Thomas, namely Didymos Judas Thomas. Both Thomas and Didymos mean ‘twin’, so this gospel was apparently written by “Judas the twin”.
Paul (1 Cor. 15:5) says that the resurrected Jesus appeared to the 12 apostles, which must have included Judas, but Judas was supposedly dead by this time.
The Gospel of Matthew tells us that Judas died by hanging himself, but Acts (1:18) tells us he died from an accidental fall. They can’t both be right. They are probably both wrong – the betrayal of Jesus is just a small part of a clumsily developed myth.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. – Carl Sagan
OT, but Brian, may I take this chance to apologise for the ferocity of my remarks on a former thread? I think I saw then and certainly do now where you were coming from.
My sincere apology to you.
No probs, Another Kim. I thought I was a bit sharpish towards you and I worried about it thereafter. Stuff happens. I sincerely hope all goes well with you and yours. Vietnam should be great.
As to where I’m coming from, if you find out you might let me know! I reserve the right to change my mind at least three times a day.
I supposed to be doing something else, so I’d better go and do it.
btw I thought I typed or -7 days (plus or minus 7 days) above. We’ll see whether it comes out that way this time.
And silkworm. I’m no in the business of being an apologist, yet you bring that out in me.
The two accounts of Judas’s death are not mutually contraindicative.
Think auto strang gone wrong.
Yep, as I thought, Bill Gates knows better than I do what I want to type.
Thanks, Brian. I was thinking of it days afterward and being regretful on that count.
Naomi, I didn’t even turn my computer on for two days after that last, I felt so bad. I knew I would look here first and didn’t want to see what had gone on after that. Whew.
Other than anything mean, it all stands, though.
What Naomi said on pre-PhD malaise. I soothe mine with whisky.
…
Jason, I’d very much doubt that the Luke Foley who’s Assistant General Secretary of the ALP (NSW Branch) would have signed the Euston Manifesto. Apart from any ideological content, being that involved with the ALP makes people so paranoid that they don’t even like to sign cabcharge dockets without their lawyers present.
Liam, did you ever nab Nab’s scotch at the nonbeginning of our promised match?
Another Kim, I simply don’t recall whether or not any malt was or was not stolen. My department handles a vast amount of whisky-related correspondence and it’s unreasonable to expect me to drink every last bit. I mean, read every last bit.
I don’t recall, either.
My back was turned when I thought Nab was oiling up. I was averting my eyes, you see.
When I looked back, Nabs and the whiskey were gone. I had hoped you had acquired it.
Liam and Naomi, I hope that you can both enjoy a post-PhD malaise ASAP
It’s a much nicer malaise. Two of my friends are also in the pre-PhD phase and I send them well-wishes every so often.
My partner’s watching the Australian Next Top model-a-thon on channel 8 (?). I think he’s addicted.
Does anyone know much about the DSD (defence signals directorate)? They’re advertising a graduate program (applications close in a few days).
So, I suppose somebody ought to note that this year is the 400th anniversary of the European discovery of Australia.
Dutchman Willem Janzsoon charted the western side of Cape York in March 1606. Admittedly, he thought it was the Southern part of New Guinea – but that’s only because it was another month till the Spaniard Torres discovered and navigated the Strait in April 1606.
Apparently Janszoon got into a bingle with Wik people, and, being fierce defenders of their rights, as we well know, about 10 Dutch – and an unknown number of Wik people – were killed.
Disturbingly, Janzsoon wanted to name his discovery “Nieu Zelandt”. No kidding. We were almost New Zealand.
PS There’s some secondary evidence – sadly unverifiable due to secrecy (they were in Spanish turf, according to the Pope) and the passage of time – that the Portuguese had sailed down the East coast 50-70 years earlier.
Sacha,
Seems like I’ve been through this post PhD malaise also, even to the point of apply for the same kind of jobs. Its a big hole to fill in your life, when you’ve been working towards a big goal for like 4 years, and particularly in the last section seems to engulf all other life activities.
I made some comments about my experience applying for a DSD job here.
If you are interested in a job in quantitative finace and you want me to offer your name if I hear of a job going for a new recruit let me know. As to whether you will find it interesting I’ve no idea. Or if you are really interested I can probalby chase up some names for you to contact. I imagine it will contain parts that are both boring and interesting.
Thanks Steve – to make it even *better* it was 7.25 years! (not all full-time for financial reasons of course)
Hey Steve – from your link:
“Well you interviewed very well, but your test results indicate a positive self-assesment. Basically you come out as being too normal, and you should never be more normal than your shrink.�
A positive self-assesment – what that’s a negative thing? Aren’t shrinks popularly thought to be some of the least content people around?
Thanks for the offer about the quantitative finance thang Steve
A few years ago I did the DFAT graduate program interview thing in Canberra and they had a psych test – I asked the psych guy how the validity of the test had been established, and he just mentioned that it came up with the same results as four other tests. As I’ve since learnt from my current job, however, this just suggests that the test is reliable, not that it has any validity. But he didn’t want to discuss it any further.
Here is a blogpost with 859 comments (as I type this)… (via a link on Cosmic Variance):
http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2006/04/07/4991
I think a “positive self-assesment” was code for “you’re bullshitting us”. If I was then I was subconciously bullshitting them!
Hello darlings. Minority shareholders.
Well the Lord Jesus Christ who won’t let me walk past someone who’s fallen down got me again last week when I found two little dogs having a bark-on with my three mutts through the front fence at around midnight. I knew they were lost and so I grabbed one of them and brought it in and then had to run after the other who’d wandered off and was having a sniff at someone’s front gate a few houses away. Then me and my three mutts inspected these tiny visitors – one of whom laid down and went to sleep straight away – in the living room of my little hacienda. Silky terriers is what they were, with beautiful coats. And they had tags, but with numbers, that’s all. And so not knowing what to do I eventually went to bed, but then the girls came home and made a big fuss about it, which is what girls do, and so I had to get up and looked amazed. Then we all retired after agreeing to puzzle some more about it in the morning. And that was it, until the girls saw torches in the lane across the road and rushed out yelling are you looking for two dogs to a man and a woman, and yes they were. Enormous excitement! And so they were handed over while I hid inside the front door and heard it explained that they were minding the dogs for friends and the little devils had got out through a hole in the back fence. Then I heard money being offered as reward and was furious to hear it declined (but not really) and next morning I removed a rain-smudged notice I’d stuck on the fence: Two Dogs Found. Enquire Within. And it was only then that I realised what I’d done.
And that’s it, that’s all. That’s me, your Chairman, loving you ever and ever….
Voices-
As sleep moves in.
In heaven we’ll be children again.
-Your Chairman.
Sacha: ((on Ho Chi Minh’s body))
Back in early 1985. my wife and I were taken, with all due solemnity, to see Bac Ho in his mausoleum. I myself did not notice anything untoward in that subdued lighting ….. but my wife expressed her doubts afterwards ….. Who knows? And does it really matter?
silkworm,
‘the charge against Dan Brown has been led by the Catholic Church. It’s now very late for the Protestants to weigh in on this debate.’
Why? It’s a novel, not a dogma. Most genuine Christians wouldn’t be interested in such a speculative fable as doctrine, although they might like reading it as a good yarn.
The other piece of fiction, the ‘gospel’ of Judah, has already been classified as doubtful. There is no way Christians are going to accept the theory that Judas actually laid down his life for Jesus. He was the betrayer, not the hero. Of course, there’ll be debate, speculation and even a Compass ’special’, but in the end it’s ‘a worthless fable’, to be ignored as a doctrinal work. The Da Vinci Code is about as believable as Harry Potter.
To answer your other arguments:
‘30 pieces of silver’ was the common price for betrayal.
Judas was an extremely common name in Jesus’ day.
The 12th Apostle was Matthias, who was with Jesus, witnessing his resurrection, which was the criteria for election in Judas’ place, and was elected after Judas died. You will find this information in the same passage in Acts 1 which says Judas ‘fell headlong’. This, by the way, is considered supplimentary information about Matthew’s account of Judas’ death by hanging rather than contradiction.
A claim that is ‘extraordinary’ to some people doesn’t negate its validity. The evidence of the resurrection is given by several different witnesses. Carl Sangan’s unbelief is irrelevant.
to add a wee bit to facelift’s comment.
The Judas manuscript has been around a long time and has been shown to be codswallop long ago by scholars from every background you want.
It completely contradicts the gospels for instance
Indeed the Gospel of Judas has been around for a long time – since Iraneus mentioned it in 180 AD. But it’s not “fiction”. It’s just a Gnostic gospel of which there are many examples. Gnosticism was one of Christianity’s most prominent competitors in the early centuries after Christ as a religious movement (it’s a matter of where you stand as to whether you call it a “heresy”).
There’s more here in a good Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas
Maybe silkworm is a product of the Jacaranda religious education classes which, according to Kevin Donnelly in yesterday’s Oz villifies the church in classrooms http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18831742-7583,00.html
You need to get your facts right, FaceLift. The Jacaranda text is not set by the state authorities, and is used in SOSE not in Religious Education.
I should clarify – it sounds like a crappy textbook to me – but as usual, Donnelly misleads his readers into thinking that it’s a set text (teachers have the option of choosing from any that they want) and then writes his usual twaddle about “evil postmodernism” – though a Joan Kirner quote from 1983 is even less relevant than what he usually cites to prove his overblown thesis.
Thanks Kim. I didn’t articulate my point very well!
Graham – does it matter? No – it still fulfills the purpose of the hero figure even it’s entirely wax!
Did you see the bizarre Ho Chi Minh propaganda museum close by to his mausoleum? Truly bizarre for anyone who’s visited a western museum. The only reasonable museum I saw in Hanoi was the museum about the ethnic groups in Vietnam – that one was set up with consultation from some French curators I believe.
No probs, FaceLift.
I get really sick of Donnelly’s schtick. Even when he has a point, he beats it up, and surrounds it with his perennial rant.
Sacha:
No, I didn’t see that museum (was it there back in ancient history?) because back in the old days, it all was quite formal and you didn’t get to feel lonely very often. One good thing was that we were able to go right into Ho Chi Minh’s house; is it closed to the public these days?
I see Raymond Gaita has signed The Euston Manifesto. On ya, Raymondo.
OK, Rob, do you know what my very first problem two problems are with your rotten Manifesto?
Try a search in your browser in it for the words ‘unionism’ and then ‘feminism’. Sure, it mentions ‘feminist’—in the section on ‘heritage’.
I’ll see your Euston Manifesto, and raise you… a barricade.
Hey Graham,
The Ho Chi Minh museum might be relatively new – it looks no more than about 20 years old. When buying a ticket at its front door, one experiences a classic waste of resources – someone sells you the ticket and a different person right next to them tears the ticket. I experienced this three times in Vietnam. Maybe it’s “job creation”.
You can’t go inside his house (and something tells me that it might be encased in glass ?) but you can certainly walk on the verandah and look in, as well as look at the carport (in which a car he drove/was driven is kept).
Outside each tourist place is the obligatory souvenir shop – we picked up two lots of postcards of Uncle Ho mixing with the people, or playing sport, or doing gardening, or inspecting troops etc.
I’ve just signed up for SETI@home and Einstein@home – check it out – it’s very interesting…
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/
Try this bit under ‘Equality’, Liam:
No -isms, but the message is clear enough.
If written in committee-ese.
How does “generally” qualify egalitarianism?
And there’s some confusion in there – highlighted by the sentence beginning “We leave open…” between status inequality and economic inequality.
Just parsin…
That’s really silly nitpicking, Liam. The problem with this Manifesto is that it’s too full of motherhood statements. Everything you want will be there.
I don’t have a significant issue with any of it though, good on them especially for not being ashamed of the Enlightenment. There are some really good people on the list like Ophelia Benson and Francis Wheen (who wrote that superb biography of Marx). I just find it all a bit pointless.
PJ O’Rourke’s Liberty Manifesto is snappier, though
http://www.cato.org/speeches/sp-orourke.html
We have no ideology, no agenda, no catechism, no dialectic, no plan for humanity. We have no “vision thing,” as our ex-president would say, or, as our current president would say, we have no Hillary.
All we have is the belief that people should do what people want to do, unless it causes harm to other people. And that had better be clear and provable harm. No nonsense about second-hand smoke or hurtful, insensitive language, please.
I don’t know what’s good for you. You don’t know what’s good for me. We don’t know what’s good for mankind. And it sometimes seems as though we’re the only people who don’t. It may well be that, gathered right here in this room tonight,are all the people in the world who don’t want to tell all the people in the world what to do.
…
There are just two rules of governance in a free society:
Mind your own business.
Keep your hands to yourself.
Bill, keep your hands to yourself. Hillary, mind your own business
Yes, most of it’s bland.
But it’s clearly targeted at those on the Left who oppose US foreign policy. That’s no doubt why Rob finds it refreshing or whatever.
And why does it have to involve Israel/Palestine at all? The rest of the world doesn’t necessarily care or want to get involved on either side. I know I make it a personal rule of mine never to discuss or debate that issue unless I’ve been drinking for at least five hours straight.
[checks watch]
Agree about the motherhood statements, Jason, but they have to be seen in the context of what the authors are trying to do. They are attempting to restate the ideals of Enlightenment liberalism that originally motivated the left against the paranoia, fashionable political hatreds, group thinks, instinctual anti-westernism and -Americanism, faux relatavism and general twisted reasoning that hallmarks the most visible face of the contemporary left — including most of the LP bloggers.
The Manifesto represents the real left, rediscovering and restating itself.
Deviationist!
You guys at LP are all unreal, you hear?
Kim, why do you hate yourself?
I compare too much stuff to the Gulag, Jason, and am not sufficiently troubled by Stalin’s crimes.
Ok – it seems the key to the real Left is to be found in the statements by the “signers” (why not use “signatories” – can none of these people write in English? How dare they evoke Orwell?) in repeated claims like this:
Oh, and stuff along the lines of “I’ve been a lone defender of truth and freedom against Islamofascism”…
*diverting myself away from writing a paper which I should be doing* – discussion about “the real left” etc, is ridiculous – it’s arguing about labels.
Move past labels, I say.
“You guys at LP are all unreal, you hear?”
Not only unreal, but not really of the left. They are parasites on the body of the left.
And Kim, the real left is not to be found among the comments of the signatories — many of which are quite interesting, reflecting the despair of the old left at the moral idiocy of the new — but in the text of the manifesto itself. What do you disagree with there?
I disagree with all the straw-Left positions the manifesto positions itself in reaction to, Rob. It may have been better for the authors to write it in positive terms and leave out all the “so-called progressive opinion” stuff.
Why, precisely are us “guys” at LP “parasites on the body of the left”?
When I started reading and commenting on blogs two years ago I thought it was the only place left in the world in which the Right and Left still talk to each other, and I still hope that’s the case.
Rob, you’ve got an imaginary Left that you’re talking to despite our presence. Hello! We’re right here.
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
Rob likes imagining that the Euston Manifesto mob are the left.
I might put up a separate post on the Euston Manifesto. This thread is getting verrrrrrrrry long.
Kim, your 11:18 pm comment alone (no offence) typifies LP’s left parasitism.
I managed to work on my paper for 17 minutes before looking at LP again. Maybe I AM addicted to blogs!
As per before: what is the meaning in discussing political labels? How about that instead of wielding labels like maces, discuss the actual issues. I suspect that a lot of people in this forum are motivated by similar goals/ideals.
People discussing/using labels in conversation reminds me of vacuous undergrad politics in which there isn’t much thought.
That makes no sense, Rob, I’m afraid (no offence). How does it do so?
Ok, here’s a thread for Manifestists and anti-Manifestists to reason together, stoush, whatever.
Sacha, labels are important because they organise issues in terms of underlying values.
People
I’ve discovered observa’s true identity. He’s been having us on all these years. He isn’t actually some humble small business operator in Australia who joins in the smoko room with his pals/employees. He’s really the sci-fi writer Dan Simmons
http://www.dansimmons.com/news/message.htm
Sacha:
Thanks. Shall have to re-visit Ha-noi one day; really liked it and got on well with the people too.
You are right about Vietnamese job creation. Back in 1985, when nobody had two Xu they could rub together thanks to the embargo, there were people with their mats spread on the street, selling single cigarettes from a packet, refilling second-hand biros and doing similar business.
BringBackHomerPaxton / JasonSoon:
Thanks for link to writer Dan Simmons’ thought-provoking “April 2006″ essay …. anyone who lived in Buffalo NY and who appreciates Garrison Keillor can’t be all bad …… but didn’t notice anything about Observa …. what did I miss?
Graham
You’ve probably come in late to LP, but observa has a tendency to relate everything back to the War with Islam.
JasonSoon:
Thanks for that; still finding my way around.