I find Anzac Day quite confronting. I am never sure how to react to it.
On the one hand, I have a lot of respect for the men and women whose lives have been touched by the wars that Australia has participated in - those in the armed services, their families, their friends, and all the civilians who were caught up in the wars. I have no desire to detract from the sacrifices that have been made or the opportunity that Anzac Day presents to celebrate the lives of those who have been lost, and to remember. On the other hand, I find war unsettling and I find the growing sense of nationalism that seems to be accompanying Anzac Day even more unsettling. I wish that there was another way in which to honour the fallen and to remember the sacrifices and pain experienced by so many in a way that didn’t seem to focus so much on the military and was not so infused with the spirit of nationalism.
It is particularly the nationalism that has come to be so closely associated with Anzac Day that concerns me. When I moved to the USA in high school, I was surprised by the nationalism and patriotism expressed by the Americans that I met. While I respected the positive ways in which taking pride in one’s country could be expressed (by fighting to uphold its democratic traditions, or to fulfil its promise of freedom and equal for all - such as through the civil rights movement), I was also quite disturbed by the way that it seemed to cloud people’s ability to critically judge their country. Many Americans that I met were completely unwilling to be critical of their country; they defended the lack of social security and health care from comparison with other countries, out of a dogged belief that America was by definition the best country in the world and anyone who said otherwise was suspect. Another thing that was frequently defended was US foreign policy - either through willing ignorance and (more disturbingly) a glowing pride in the nuclear capacity of their country. Statements like “well, we could nuke your country out of the water” were not an uncommon conclusion to an argument about the superiority of the US.
Back then I felt that Australia was blessedly free of this kind of nationalism. It wasn’t that Australians were not proud of their country. We were proud, particularly of the natural beauty and of qualities such as a lack of formality, a sense of equality and even of our sense of humour. However, I had never felt as though our pride blinded us to problems with our country or established criteria of “us and them” that excluded people who were not Australians (remember, I grew up in Canberra and I was still young at the time). This was something that I appreciated about Australian culture and wanted to move back to rather than staying on in the US.
The thing is that I am no longer so sure that we have not let our national pride cloud our judgement. The Cronulla riots seemed to represent an extreme example of the results of national identity forming rigid barriers between “us” and “them”. The constant debate that goes on in the media about ‘Australian Values’ and the naming of people as being ‘un-Australian’ for not sharing those values seems to contribute to this divisive thinking. The arguments against a formal apology to the Stolen Generations as representing a “black armband” version of history is another sign that our nationalism is starting to blind us to our faults. I find all of this extremely unsettling and it worries me that a day that ought to be about honouring the lives of Australians who sacrificed so much, has also become a day to glorify ourselves and to raise up the banner of nationalism. It was nationalism that led to WWI and if we want to reduce the chances of having to engage in any more wars we would do well to embrace more positive sentiments in the future.
Someone else who found nationalism and war unsettling was Albert Einstein. I was searching for his quote on nationalism being an infantile disease when I came across the full context of that quote. It actually surprised me how harsh it was, but it should be remembered that he is reacting to the use of his own scientific discoveries to create an atom bomb (and the horrific results of that creation).
He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt.
He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice.
This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once.
Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance,
how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is;
I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action!
It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking…
the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind.
If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker.The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
For the rest of my life I want to reflect on what Light is.
- Albert Einstein
I think Albert Einstein was a bit out of high school by the time he wrote that and you quote fellow high school students as American thought personified.
Tad unfair?
Not an equal comparison, Cristy. On any level.
Sorry Another Kim, that wasn’t my intention at all - either to quote American high school students as American thought personified or to compare them to Einstein. I merely quoted them to show what I experienced in high school as a comparison between what I witnessed of our two countries at the time and have since discovered not to be so different.
I thought that Australia was free of that kind of nationalism and have since discovered that it is actually alive and well - particularly in our high school students. It was this that I was trying to highlight, not any generalisations about Americans.
I suspect that the brand of vulgar nationalism you speak of has not yet arisen in Australian high school students. I say this first of all because I think most Australian high school students have only a vague conception of Australia’s military exploits. This conception is underpinned by the understanding that Australian soldiers went away living and came back dead (if they came back at all). I also think that, unlike some other countries, the teaching of military history in Australia does not rest upon the foundation of ‘we won, therefore we were right’ or even ‘therefore we were Good’. It rests upon the foundation of ‘this was fucked’. That’s what happens when all them dirty history teachers are lefties!
Whether this vulgar nationalism has arisen elsewhere, I cannot say, for I do not watch commercial television.
To bolster your points though..and it’s purely personal observations, as well. I do see amped up levels of patriotism/nationalism these days.
Not sure what your era in high school was or where you lived. That would be informative, can you comfortably share that?
I see what I said didn’t convey what I meant.
I meant to say that what followed were my personal observations and actually substantiated what you said.
Thanks for the post, Cristy, I’ve got a similar ambiguity in my reactions to Anzac Day, I think.
Maybe that in part stems from the way German-Australians were treated during WW2 - when of course they’d been highly resistant to attempts by Nazis to propagandise during the 30s - which is not surprising since most of the German population in this country emigrated in 1848 and afterwards to escape political and religious persecution in Europe. Still, there was an element of “enemy within” going on here back in those days.
And more generally, the nationalistic element has been radically beefed up since I was younger. I think Keating had a lot to do with this initially with his attempts to reorient history away from a British perspective, which I supported. But I think we need to be on our guard against militarism. I always thought it was significant that many of the diggers from WW1 who lived longest refused to speak about their experiences, and many refused to march at Anzac Day for many years as well. There was a real sense when I was younger that the day was not about glorifying war and killing, and I think Australian patriotism was also very much downplayed and concerned not to be exclusivist. I think we need to draw a careful line between honouring the sacrifices of the fallen and celebrating our democratic culture and falling into a sort of self-satisfied and exclusivist nationalism which can too easily bleed into militarism.
I live in Washington DC in the early 1990s. The nationalism/patriotism was no where near the levels that it rose to post-Sept 2001, but I was also less prepared for it than I was after an event like that. It was certainly expressed more by teenage boys than anyone else, but it also impacted on the media more than I had seen in Australia at that time.
The response of ‘The Australian’ to the Iraq war changed that for me here.
Another Kim: there are a hell (Warning: Freep) of a lot of Americans out there who never graduated from the attitudes Cristy encountered at High School. If anything they’ve gotten even more juvenile.
Mark, German Americans faced many prejudices during both wars, especially WW1. Foods and certain dog breeds were renamed then, too. Folks kept a low profile. Surnames were changed.
I’m not surprised, Another Kim.
There used to be lots of towns on the Darling Downs just west of Brisbane that had German names. Marburg is the only one left.
Btw, I can’t remember where I read it, but I read something fascinating about the “German counties” in Texas that supported the North during the Civil War, and had a long history of a liberal, educated and integrationist culture - which of course was expressed through voting Republican in the “Solid South” days of Texan Democracy.
Cristy, teenage boys are wonderful (dare I say, larval) creatures.
Please however, do not use them as a prototype for any nation’s thought.
Otherwise…well, it’s babes and nukes all around.
Mark, you delight me. You hold much arcane info that makes me listen up.
You’re right,there is a solid German background in parts of Texas.
Sadly, Another Kim, I can’t translate the amount of arcane info I hold into success at pub triva nights
Thanks!
On Cristy’s point about teenagers, I think what she’s saying is that the way kids talked when she went to school in the States was completely different from what she’d experienced in Australia. There is probably a cultural difference that comes out even in teenage boys! Similarly, I used to get a bit annoyed when I was in primary school - at a middle class state school which was very ethnically homogenous - all Anglo/Scottish surnames (the micks went to the Convent up the road) and I was in effect the “different” one with a German name. This was in the 70s when memories of WW2 were still pretty strong, and I didn’t appreciate the teasing (Hogan’s Heroes didn’t help matters!). I think Australian youngsters tend to be more concerned with marking out lines about who is and isn’t a “real Aussie” than a sort of nationalism as against the rest of the world that does tie into the American sense of “manifest destiny”. Hence Cristy’s concern as well about the pathological Cronulla style nationalism.
When I went to high school in a much more working class and ethnically heterogenous suburb, there were a lot of Vietnamese kids. The Greeks and Italians identified themselves as “Aussies” against the Asian kids. That seems to be the pattern here in Australia with successive waves of immigration. I often wondered what the Vietnamese kids made of the Anzac Day ceremonies we used to have at school. Sadly, we never mixed with them at all.
Leinad..Ann, yah. Steve, no.
My shorthand screws me sometimes.
I like Steve. Vodka boy makes sense.
Anyway, I’ll leave you dudettes and dudes to it. It’s a beautiful sunny Autumn afternoon here in Brissy, and I’m going to take a stroll by the river.
Happy Anzac Day - whatever it means to you
Mark, were you saying you played it on a small stage and we do on a large?
Dang. Leave just when it gets interesting to go have some real life.
“Cristy, teenage boys are wonderful (dare I say, larval) creatures.
Please however, do not use them as a prototype for any nation’s thought.
Otherwise…well, it’s babes and nukes all around.”
Again Kim that was genuinely not my intention. I was focusing on Australia now, and not on the US at all. The only purpose for bringing up the US was to discuss the context in which I first encountered nationalism of the kind that I am concerned about - one particular US high school in DC - not to make any statements about whether or not that was representative of the people as a whole. I do hope that I have made that clear at this point.
Nationalism is a complicated issue. It has two associations - class and post-colonialism - which means it must be criticized carefully. A critique of nationalism mustn’t be allowed to slip into a classism (middle vs. working), and nationalism remains a key political strategy for resistance againt imperialisms, both traditional and modern, or post-modern.
Nevetheless, the resurgence of Anzac Day in Australia is an interesting phenomenon. It is linked, surely, to the globalization of Australia’s economy, politics and social life starting with the economic reforms of the Hawke/Keating era.
MH: Would you call the Anzac Day celebrations a display of patriotism or a display of nationalism?
I’ll buy into this, if I may. The old man (90) is ex 3 Sqdn (WW2) and for some years didn’t march, then did, until physically unable to even withstand a ride in a jeep. He is still vehemently anti-war and his pet hobbyhorse is the ‘hijacking’ of “Lest we Forget” by the RSL (and others) when it was orginally a lament for loss of Empire. Anzac Day has been slowly changing as the generations changed and the numbers dwindled, of course. I seem to recall that when I was young we learnt it more as a solemn day of remembrance. I got mightily agitated as Howard, earlier after his installation as PM, started eulogising the young Aussies going to Gallipoli when it appeared that Gallipoli had simply become a ‘must do’ on the overseas trip. But I’ll admit that I’ll look for alleged shortcomings in the PM wherever I can find them.
Alan Seymour charted misgivings about Anzac Day as far back at 1956(?) in One Day of the Year, and the current wrangling over kids marching shows the chnages and their implications continue. I have to say that, watching the march tdoay, it seemed a lot more ‘parade-like’, but this perception may be influenced by the current debate that Cristy highlights. What continues is that politicians inevitably try to make mileage, but that those who actually put their lives on the line are tghe q
I grew up in America’s ‘love it or leave it’ years and can attest that, like high school-age children the world over, the ones encounted by Cristy were more likely merely reflecting adult ‘thought’ from their immediate environments rather than anything original. This has been a well-documented failing in American self-knowledge as practiced in its foreign and domestic policies for many decades at least, something once characterised as ‘Ugly American[ism]’, both micro and macro, although thankfully perhaps only finding truly national- and global-scale damaging realisation in sporadic bursts, such as the communist witch-hunts, regime-change in Chile and Vietnam, and now imperial adventurism in Iraq (and who’s next?), as well as other episodes from much earlier last century and before. The sense of and pursuit of Manifest Destiny as fostered by turning a large portion of a resource-rich continent into a single nation has found itself turning from boosterism to hegemonic domineering behaviour enough to create a self-perpetuating cycle, one not likely to fail soon, although like any egoist, the U.S. is past due for a closer look at its own psyche. This kind of nationalism is often a matter for concern, and it’s always hideous. The flag of any nation never makes for an attractive garment.
The world saw Cronulla, too.
Would you call the Anzac Day celebrations a display of patriotism or a display of nationalism?
Not a simple distinction to make. Patriotism is perhaps associated with social practices while nationalism is politics and ideology. Anzac Day could be read through both terms.
Anzac Day like any other event is what you make it. Patriotism and nationalism have no part in my conception of it, in fact it highlights very clearly why those things are meaningless and destructive. Because the foundation Gallipoli story is one of defeat and disaster its much more flexible than other days where the focus on being victorious overshadows everything else. I think this is part of the popularity of the day, it resists being taken over as a monolithic day of national triumph uber allies. We were slaughtered, we lost. And for what? You can’t escape those thoughts on Anzac Day. Also, the reading of the “Mehmets and Johnnies” Attaturk lines and so on at every service means the enemy in this case has always been real and the fact we share a common sorrow and friendship now has always been stressed. So Anzac Day is also by its nature about peace.
I ignore the pollies and the priests and think about the people.
And I think the most shocking thing about the Cronulla riots is not that they happened but that they don’t happen more often (cf. the rest of the world) and so in an odd way make me feel good about Australia and the way we all just get on with it in the most part and generally get along. Such blow ups will inevtiably happen wherever human beings live together: the real, optimistic story is the fact they happen so rarely and are met with such horror across the board.
Cristy thank you for a thought-provoking post. When I was kid back in the 60s I was mystified that Australian military commemoration centred on WWI rather than WW2. It seemed to me that there was a lot more to remember about the more recent war when Australia survived what at the time seemed to be a possible invasion rather than a earlier war on the other side of the world. The other thing was that in those days the commemoration was extremely sombre, with little, if any, of the nationalism of today’s commemoration and none at all of a gung ho variety.
As I got to read Australian history I came to understand that while WWI started off with a gung ho nationalism, with marches and bands and cheering crowds, by the time it was over it had gutted the country in a way that WW2 did not. Sixty thousand dead and another two hundred and thirty thousand wounded out of a population of four million translates to the decimation of the entire cohort of males aged between 18 and 40 at the time of the war. I remember going through a family photo album from the time with my mother and asking about the pictures of the young men in uniform, whom she explained to me were her uncles or cousins who had gone to the war and had not returned. There were a lot of them.
WWI could hardly have left a family in Australia unaffected and even in the 1960s many of those attending the Anzac Day ceremonies would have been remembering fathers or older brothers who did were killed or wounded in the war. Jingoistic tub-thumping would have been profoundly offensive to people for whom that war had left great grief. When they said “We will remember them” they meant it literally of people whom they had known and with whom they had once laughed and for whom they had shed tears, and not as dusty photographs in an album.
Of course now they are long gone and so or not around to be offended by inappropriate nationalistic sentiments and I guess that a younger generation with little inherited memory of the trauma of that war, for those who experienced WWI would be their great-grandparents, will be susceptible to the lure of chauvinistic nationalism, just as the young men of 1914 were.
GregM, it sounds like you hit the nail on the head. It’sa very different thing to remember a person vs. a cause.
Indeed. I feel very fortunate in a melancholy way that I have transcriptions of my greatuncles’ dairies and letters from the Great War to read. It is hard to feel impersonal about a war when one reads diary entries about an Anzac in France being begged by a German with a belly wound to just shoot him to put him out of his misery, and obliging. It’s impossible to glorify that.
‘I guess that a younger generation with little inherited memory of the trauma of that war, for those who experienced WWI would be their great-grandparents, will be susceptible to the lure of chauvinistic nationalism, just as the young men of 1914 were.’
Yep, which is why it’s a good idea to keep an eye on the trajectory of Anzac Day celebrations, because it most certainly is being used for purposes patriotic and nationalistic. Hope it doesn’t keep heading down that path, but (as I mentioned) I suspect that most high school students are appropriately suspicious of military triumphalism or hollow mourning rituals.
I think that’s an important distinction too. Increasingly there will be fewer veterans with memories of real people’s lives, and more distance between us and those who went before. That’s where history becomes vital, and where history also becomes a symbolic/political football.
Incidentally, the RSL still has great difficulty signing up Vietnam vets.
Another Kim, I don’t think it’s just a difference of scale. Australia has a very different post-colonial history which is shaped both by continued allegiance to the British Empire (”White Australia”, foreign policy aligned to that of “great and powerful friends”), successive waves of immigration (the question of integration is quite different to that in the US as we lack a powerful national ideology which can be separated from ethnicism), and most importantly, the perception of Australia as a (”threatened”) outpost of Europe in the South Pacific.
I think it’s a real tragedy that discussion of all this gets shut down by the Culture Warriors who want to impose one version of Australian nationalism.
As to real life, I enjoyed my walk - lots of families and young folk picnicing in the parks by the river, beautiful weather, and I picked up some ricotta cake on the way home
Actually, Mark, there are viable though not exact comparisons to be made between the US and Aus on every point you raised.
Up to and including the “threatened outpost” mentality.
Lovely post Cristy
As a migrant to OZ and as such new to the Anzac legend, I can say that the nationalism and militarism associated with it’s commeration has increased by several factors.
And more so in the past ten years of Howards stewardship, it’s been very interesting to see how he’s managed to place the militarism associated with the Anzacs and Galloppli to the front and center of Australian cultural life.
Why has this occured? Well maybe Australians are still looking for some kind of self identification - other than a still born possibility of Republicanism, this is the next best bet. It’s an easy thing to do and doesn’t require much thinking.
Outside of the PM’s crass photo op association with every returning military deployment, I think most Australians appear to be quite happy with this being a once a year thing and not the 24/7 flag waving that sometimes goes on over the pond.
This is a good thing, and as such does not suggest any potentially virulent nationalism simply because I just don’t think most modern Australians are wired that way.
I’ll start worrying when politicians start calling for across the board school cadet programs or we have a compulsory flying of the flag in those schools………………….on second thought.
We must learn to separate nationalism from imperialism. There is nothing wrong with nationalism, or even “exclusive” nationalism, for the latter simply implies that groups of people are according exclusive rights to themselves and their property (after all, independence for East Timor surely means that they have exclusive rights that are not accorded to Indonesia). Without the necessary exclusive element, there cannot be any justifiable defense against an imperial aggressor, because the entire basis of self-determination has been shredded from the outset.
However, imperialism is something entirely different. It elevates the rights of the sovereign over the rights of its subjects, and is founded on direct opposition to the essentially nationalist concept of self-control. So I think the real lesson from Anzac Day is that we are celebrating an event that deeply affected Australia as a nation, despite the fact we were mandatory participants in imperial folly. So celebrate the soldiers’ bravery and sacrifices, but we should still remember that dismantling the Ottoman Empire had little to do with defending the Australian continent.
I’m inclined to agree with that, Steve.
Another Kim, perhaps you could elaborate? I’m very interested in US politics and history, and studied a fair bit as an undergrad but nothing substitutes for actually living somewhere…
I think Anzac Day is a very important tradition that must be protected from the dangerous version of nationalism that glorifies military service. Military service ought to be a reluctant necessity, and while we should thank those who are prepared to serve Australians and our allies overseas, we should never do so unquestioningly.
WW1 would seem to be more about defending Emperialism than nationalism, but It would seem that the basic reasons for fighting in both World Wars included maintaining some kind of freedom of speach, religion and association, the right to choose government, defence against ambitious, war-mongering tyrants, and a gung-ho kind of adventurism, the last of which we don’t necessarily share today.
A national identity came out of the mateship, shared fears, hardships, sadness and cameradery of the trenches, and has formed a fairly healthy ‘pride’ in our country, and in our mates the Kiwis.
The Crunulla ‘riots’ were not a good example of this kind of nationalism, but rather a show of anger against ethnotribal rivalries which were continuing unchecked by lawmakers and enforcers, and shouldn’t be used as a measure.
FaceLift, your post points to the potential for nationalism to blind itself to its historical contingencies and hegemonic potential. If “a national identity came out of the … the trenches”, where is the place in Australia for those who don’t share those legacies? Women, Asian-Australians, etc. There is a left-wing post-colonial nationalism which has a positive political and cultural impetus in a Australia, enabling rewriting our history to include those erased by Australia’s imperial history, but nationalism is ever a fraught political and cultural terrain.
There are all sorts of fractures which you get when you confine Anzac Day to the Gallipoli experience itself. I recall reading that the RSL now welcomed Turkish veterans into the march (because they were “honourable enemies”) - which seems odd, as I can’t imagine there are too many Turkish centenarians living in Australia. Italian veterans of WW2 - Australian citizens - were refused the same privilege. And then there’s the controversies between elements of the RSL (who seem to think it’s “their” day) and the orange protesters who want to march to protest the crummy deal they think the federal government is giving vets, and over whether kids or grandkids of deceased vets should be allowed to march with medals.
We haven’t come close to settling what this day means.
We haven’t come close to settling what this day means.
Nor will we ever, but that’s probably a good thing.
Yes, I agree, MH, but the attempts at closure worry me. Hence my sympathy with Cristy’s post.
Yes, indeed. Closure can be nothing but oppression and authoritarianism.
Thought-provoking post, Cristy.
I think a useful distinction should be made between nationalism and ultra-nationalism, of the kind Einstein had seen so much of in his day (and which I think must have been foremost in his mind when he wrote the above quote). It is a madness partly brought on by nationalism, but nationalism itself is hardly such a madness or such a disease… just a condition, that waxes and wanes with the patient’s overall health.
Mark — re your query about Germans in Texas… yes, there is a substantial German population there (also Czechs and Alsatians), mainly descended, I believe, from the moral-idealist German strain such as the religious refugees of 1848 you were speaking of. There are towns like New Braunfels and Fredericksburg that guard a substantial portion of their German heritage. And the accordions and brass instruments that are so much a part of Mexican folk music (cf. mariachi) are a Texas-German influence. Not surprisingly, Texas beer is incredibly good (being brewed from German and Alsatian recipes). Even Mexican ‘Dos Equis’ beer is German in origin (as I believe is Tsingtao, a leftover from German adventurism in China).
Kinda sad really, a lot here cannot even discuss ANZAC DAY without bringing the rabid hate of all things American (oh and the oh so boring “we hate Howard”).
Have some of you really even listened to a Dawn Service. Its does not glorify war and rampant nationalism. Its purely a time to reflect on those who made sacrifices and for a lot people who left Australia’s shores never to come home.
Sorry Russ, can’t see where the anti stuff is, I said Howard was crass, and we’ve observed the American contrast regarding flagwaving, but I can’t see how that can be interpreted as anti American/Howardism.
However, whilst I have the floor allow me to note how beautifully the two fit together.
I agree with Steve Edwards and think there is nothing wrong with nationalistic pride if it is uncoupled from imperialism and in Australia it is. Its only the paranoid left who think otherwise. Moreover, most of the people at ANZAC Day take pleasure from seeing old comrades reunite or from our sense of community as Australians - where is the strident nationalism anyway?
Have you looked at the people who attend the ceremonies instead of concocting ludicrous, paranoid leftist fantasies.
I don’t have any doubts at all about ANZAC Day. It is our most important public day. I find Cristy’s confusion (and that of Mark and others) totally deplorable. And inexcusable. It is not necessary to create a moral ambiguity about every situation in our society.
This pretence at deep concern is leftist nonsense looking for a resting place. Even ANZAC Day you have to turn into a whine. Oh sorry…you did appreciate those ‘whose lives had been touched’..I forgot.
ANZAC Day is a day where different types of Australians think about war and the memories of relatives and friends who died fighting for our country. You don’t have to apologise or feel moral ambiguity about this benign and important day.
I don’t know where you’re getting that from, Russ. I haven’t seen any “hate of all things American” and you’re only the third person to mention Howard.
Thanks for that, j_p_z, I’d love to go visit there sometime!
Speaking as an Australian leftie who likes America and Americans, that is
Mark, we lacked a cohesive national identity ourselves till after the war between the states. Puts us at 1865, and much later really.
Till 1812, we had strong pro British sentimentalities even though we triangulated the French in at times.
And when it comes to assimilating waves of immigration? It was during all that. Finished slavery off and reunited. Then just prior to WW1 and right after that the greatest numbers of “others” arrived. Who are the current leaders in America now? Right. You know.
I respect the LP 3 para rule. I could add more.
Sorry, harry, I think your appropriation of Anzac Day to have a go at lefties is boring. There’s actually an interesting conversation going on here, as I read the thread, and largely civil and well mannered. You could participate in that, or not. If not, I for one won’t be responding. Life’s too short, mate.
Thanks Another Kim. Yes - those are good points. I still think immigration has been handled somewhat differently - there’s a strong sense of what people are buying into when they become American. I’m not so sure that’s the same with becoming Australia.
harry clarke, you are totally not getting the argument here. If you stopped and read and thought, you would understand that it is possible to be both (what can be called) “left-wing” and a nationalist. To ask questions about the meaning of Anzac Day is not to fear “ambiguity” or “confusion”, but to be fully participant in the creation of the meaning of the Australia we all deeply love.
The problem with MH’s “left-wing post-colonial nationalism” is that it carries the same alleged exclusivist traits that were previously condemned in the Anzac Legend. This is even more restrictive than the Anzac Legend (which allegedly “excludes” Asians, gays, and other “oppressed” minorities) because by definition you cannot be nationalist unless you are “left-wing”! Thus the calls for “inclusion” are completely deceptive, and can be safely dismissed as an utter fraud.
This is off-topic: Mark, are you graduating soon?
I’m not so sure, Steve. How? All nationalisms risk falling into exclusivism. I agree that it’s a possibility for left wing nationalism as well - but I think you need to spell out exactly how that can be so.
“This pretence at deep concern is leftist nonsense looking for a resting place.”
It is clearly based on fraud and hypocrisy, which is precisely why most people don’t bother to listen.
So, basically you went to America and spent the whole time telling Americans how shit you think their country is?
What a superb advertisement for Australia you must have been.
By the way, are you in any way aware that there are many people who are not American that would actually AGREE that the US health care and social security system are superior? That it’s not just blind nationalism but actually a considered position? Or is it just a case of “Cristy’s Right And Everyone Else Is Wrong”?
And do you guys really have to tell everyone how fucked Anzac Day is every time it comes around? We get it ok - Lefties hate Anzac Day and war is hell.
So don’t participate.
Stay Home.
Don’t belittle the memories of the people who did serve and their families and friends who remember them on this day by writing letters to the letter/whiny blog posts about how the whole thing is “vulgar”. Just shut your fucking mouth for once and be tolerant.
“ANZAC Day is a day where different types of Australians think about war and the memories of relatives and friends who died fighting for our country.”
I agree.
I have always disliked the kind of nationalism (imperialism?) which resulted in antipathy or aggression towards outsiders - this always horrified me due to the apparent potential for it to turn nasty.
“I agree that it’s a possibility for left wing nationalism as well…”
By the very definition of “left-wing nationalist” it must be confined to people who are left-wing! If you oppose the socialisation of other people’s belongings, then you can’t be a true nationalist.
To complain about the “exclusion” of women, gays, Asians etc, while simultaneously proposing the marginalisation of half the political spectrum is the height of hypocrisy.
Steve Edwards, I don’t understand what you are saying, although I am concerned about your rhetorical style (”safely dismissed”, “utter fraud”) which denies the possibility of serious discussion. The idea of a post-colonial nationalism is hardly a radical one, and is instrinsic to Australian nationalism. Indeed, the Anzac legend has deeply anti-British imperial elements to it. But it is self-evident that the version of the Anzac legend (the “cameradery of the trenches”) expressed above has little place for large segments of contemporary Australia. That doesn’t mean that the Anzac story should be condemned but rather that it needs to be opened up to express the aspirations of all Australians.
Simple question: why is it so difficult for people to argue in a civil fashion?
“The idea of a post-colonial nationalism is hardly a radical one”
And you previously said it was necessarily “left-wing”! What happened to that, now?
By the very definition of “left-wing nationalist� it must be confined to people who are left-wing!
Sigh. No, you’re totally confused. “Left-wing nationalism” is about reclaiming the national and nationalism from the right, and recognizing that nationalism is a key political and cultural strategy for resisting imperialism and creating nationhoods in post-imperial societies. Australia has been practicing it for more than a century. The Eureka Stockade can be described as such, for example, as indeed can the Anzac legend.
“That doesn’t mean that the Anzac story should be condemned but rather that it needs to be opened up to express the aspirations of all Australians…”
I know, I know, by “rewriting history” as you demanded in a previous comment.
Not only must we be “left-wing” to be nationalists, we must also doctor the historical record, Stalin style!
And you previously said it was necessarily “left-wing�! What happened to that, now?
I have no idea what you mean. I think we’d all rather return to the interesting discussion we were having about the meaning of Anzac Day.
I would like to hear Rob’s (or anyone else’s) opinion about why the Anzac Day tradition is important, and what that tradition is.
I have a deep suspicion of social traditions based on military exploits, and would like to hear of some which have been retained as a warning against war well after their participants have died, and which have not been used as a means of inclusion/exclusion.
Just shut your fucking mouth for once and be tolerant.
Wow, who could argue with that?
Just a bit off tangent but Google Australia has a nice Anzac Day logo up today. If you click on it it takes you to the anzac day search term.
Neat.
Indeed! The Yobbos of the world are seemingly incapable of reading. No one here has been denigrating Anzac Day or the sacrifice of soldiers. I don’t know why some people have such a great need to find people they can fit into their box of what imaginary Leftists think.
Steve, I also think you’ve missed the point. It’s not at all clear that “Australian nationalism” is a simple or unified thing. It probably can never be, and it’s open to contestation. As MH says, a left wing version is going to highlight aspects of our shared myths which point to a distancing of this country from imperialism. Oddly, I thought that sort of position was what you were supporting earlier. So I’m unclear as to why you’re now getting steamed up.
Sacha, no. I’m still getting the thing in shape for the oral defence. For a number of reasons, it wasn’t possible to hold it last year and I’ve rethought some of what the argument should be. Hence, my disappearance from the blog which will take effect again tomorrow. My supervisor wants to get it all wrapped up in the mid year break, and I’ve got a fair bit of editing to do before I’m happy with the final product.
Yobbo, please be civil or refrain from participating. I don’t think that anyone should have to tolerate that kind of behaviour anywhere.
“So, basically you went to America and spent the whole time telling Americans how shit you think their country is?”
Actually, no. There was a Swedish guy at my school who liked to talk about health care and got into lots of arguments about it. At 14 I wasn’t very aware of the differences between the policies of our countries. The subject also came up a lot in discussions between Americans because it was the year that Hilary Clinton was trying to champion her new Medicare Bill.
I liked (and still do like) America, for the record, and still have a lot of great friends there - all of whom are very critical of their country, because they want it to be the very best place that it can be. I also like Australia, but feel that this does not mean that I should be uncritical. That would just mean that I didn’t care.
I can see it now: Yobbo, as a guest ‘critic’ on the movie show, “we won’t need the half hour today Fenella. They’re all shit. Zero stars. And now to Mark for the DVDs.”
Denunciations all around - how wonderfully po-mo!
Yobbo, your “membership card” is “in the mail”
Thanks for the post, Cristy. Some important points made, and powerfully.
As to this whole “my country right or wrong” thing, it’s horsewash. You owe your country your critical judgement in a democracy. One thing that distinguished both the US and Australia from the UK during WW1 and WW2 was that we continued to hold elections and discuss partisan issues - unlike in the UK where a greater degree of deference to established authority meant that elections were postponed for the duration. I think we should be proud of that.
And for what it’s worth, my grandfather served this fine country in WWII and my great grandfather served in both WWI (got gassed and bayonetted) and WWII.
“We’re not making a sacrifice.
Jesus, you’ve seen this war.
We are the sacrifice.�
—Ulster regiment, marching toward the Somme
There does seem to be a few able-bodied lads on this thread looking for a fight yet curiously unwilling to sacrifice themselves in what they like to call the clash of civilisations.
Hey Russ and “Just shut your fucking mouth for once and be tolerant” Yobbo, This one’s for you.
I exclude Steve Edwards from this snark ‘cos, while I disagree with him about so much, I reckon he does has the courage of his convictions and would be a conscientious objector in the face of massive opprobrium if he thought a war was wrong.
Meanwhile, there’s the likes of Yobbo (who I’d think would make an excellent small unit soldier) sitting on his arse playing poker and shouting at anyone who dares think there’s more to life and nationhood than that.
Yeah, watch it Yobbo. Your behaviour of common sense and decency - albeit somewhat flamboyant in its descriptives - is hard to accommodate for lefty-soldier-haters like our Christy here.
You see mate, you’re supposed to agree with her and empower her stance and position and undermine the greatness of our forefathers. Otherwise you’re not welcome.
Frankly, I thought your post was pretty much on the money Yobbo. Good for you, good for me.
Crap. Fucked up that link above.
This one’s for you Russ and Yobbo.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/white-feather.htm
pl12,
The ANZAC day tradition is important because it reminds us:
i) that, despite the need for it on occassion to secure our liberty, war isn’t desirable, and no one should have to go through it, as the Diggers - those who were there - tell us over and over,
ii) that, nevertheless, people like the ANZACs were and are prepared to fight for that right despite the horror and sacrifice to keep the liberty of their and future generations intact, and,
iii) that we should remember those who stood and stand up for us, in the face of those who would destroy our way of life, even before some of us were born, so that we could live in the kind of war-free, democratic, prosperous nation (and, maybe, one day, world) they hoped they’d win for us.
Ooh I see Curius Maximus is back, bloody yet unbowed from his neverending battle with the monstrous regiment of women.
Help yourself to a white feather too why don’t you Maxie? It’ll match the rest of your capon plumage.
Let’s be charitable and assume these gentlemen have had a few too many beers today. Incidentally, why are the overwhelming majority of RWDBs male?
Anyhoo, I wanted to throw my two cents in. I also have an odd relationship with nationalism, because of my family heritage and where I’ve lived. My dad was an American diplomat, and I lived all over the shop as a girl. My mum was Portuguese, and when my parents separated, moved to Australia as she had rellos here. I went to high school and uni (u/g) in Brisbane, then took advantage of my American citizenship and went to California to do postgrad stuff, and stayed on for quite a bit, til I came back here a couple of years ago. I’ve also lived in Europe. So I don’t feel myself to be particularly exclusive in who I am. I’m very fond of both Australia and America, and feel like I’m a bit of both. I speak with a Californian accent. I don’t feel particularly patriotic as such, but there are freedoms and values in America I’ll defend strongly, just as there are aspects of Australian-ness I think are wonderful.
I’d be interested to hear from people like Jason who are kinda cosmopolitan libertarians and also have dual citizenship (I think…) what their take is on all this nationalism stuff is.
If you can’t handle at argument Mark then don’t but don’t cast aspersions and don’t call me mate. My mates don’t duck and weave with phony stories about unwarranted nationalism on Anzac Day. Where is it? Where is the nationalistic overload? Its total bullshit!
Yobbo is right. You lot even have to have a go at Anzac day. Couldn’t you come up with a blog topic Cristy? Did it hit you at 12-30 today. Why not? Attack Anzac Day with a suitable cover of social concern.
Totally disgraceful - of course you respect the dead (I wonder if you do or if that is just a dim, lost fantasy) but all that wicked nationalism. Again, where the bloody hell is it?
Moral ambiguity over nationalism on Anzac day? What an argument! What a bunch of phonies. Phony issue, phony thinkers. And I guess the lot of you will save us from the immoralities of John Howard.