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	<title>Comments on: Nice post-budget bounce&#8230; for the ALP</title>
	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: Douglas McDonald</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78337</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 08:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78337</guid>
		<description>I agree with FDB's Green/Labor/Liberal divide, although I think the general pattern is independents locally (want people who understand local issues; generally centrists), Labor in states (want more spending on infrastructure), and Liberal federally (want Australia to be competitive economically and to give them more economic freedom). So, economically speaking (because socially speaking the parties are all over the place), they want fraternity from their local council, equality from the states, and liberty from the feds. If one wishes to get poetic, it's essentially libertÃ©, Ã©galitÃ©, fraternitÃ©, which one could say are the three essential elements of a healthy democracy.

Of course, I'm not sure if the figures stack up to my view of it, but it certainly looks neat, doesn't it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with FDB&#8217;s Green/Labor/Liberal divide, although I think the general pattern is independents locally (want people who understand local issues; generally centrists), Labor in states (want more spending on infrastructure), and Liberal federally (want Australia to be competitive economically and to give them more economic freedom). So, economically speaking (because socially speaking the parties are all over the place), they want fraternity from their local council, equality from the states, and liberty from the feds. If one wishes to get poetic, it&#8217;s essentially libertÃ©, Ã©galitÃ©, fraternitÃ©, which one could say are the three essential elements of a healthy democracy.</p>
<p>Of course, I&#8217;m not sure if the figures stack up to my view of it, but it certainly looks neat, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78328</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 08:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78328</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Update&lt;/b&gt;: &lt;a href="http://badanalysis.com/catallaxy/?p=1790" rel="nofollow"&gt;Andrew Norton&lt;/a&gt; has an interesting post over at Catallaxy which takes issue with my interpretation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Update</b>: <a href="http://badanalysis.com/catallaxy/?p=1790" rel="nofollow">Andrew Norton</a> has an interesting post over at Catallaxy which takes issue with my interpretation.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78294</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 06:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78294</guid>
		<description>On childcare, it'd be interesting to see some disaggregation by gender, Paul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On childcare, it&#8217;d be interesting to see some disaggregation by gender, Paul.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt D</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78288</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 06:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78288</guid>
		<description>I'm interested in FDB's point about why people vote different ways for different levels of government.

There is a theory that people like a balance. That is, they like different parties to be in power at the state and federal level. I have always doubted, without any evidence, that this is so. I suspect that the answer is much more related to the individual psychology of voters. I think the vast majority of voters are not interested in the ideology at all. They wouldn't even think of themselves as voting "left" at one level and "right" at another. 

(I'll leave aside the question of how "left" the votes of someone who has been voting for Bob Carr, for example, are.)

Incumbency seems to be a pretty big advantage in Australia most of the time. The Australian voter is a cautious beast. I'm not sure what psychological factors are at work, but I believe it is a real influence on elections.

I have one friend, that I know for a fact, has voted for the incumbent at every single election, state and federal, since he has been able to vote. (1st election 1990). I have another friend who nearly always supports the opposition. To someone who knows them well, this is not all that surprising. It is a comfortable fit with their general approach to life.

Answering FDB's question, I believe it is almost impossible for an opposition to appeal to some people. Australian voters are risk averse. Governments really have to make a hash of it for them even to consider voting for change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m interested in FDB&#8217;s point about why people vote different ways for different levels of government.</p>
<p>There is a theory that people like a balance. That is, they like different parties to be in power at the state and federal level. I have always doubted, without any evidence, that this is so. I suspect that the answer is much more related to the individual psychology of voters. I think the vast majority of voters are not interested in the ideology at all. They wouldn&#8217;t even think of themselves as voting &#8220;left&#8221; at one level and &#8220;right&#8221; at another. </p>
<p>(I&#8217;ll leave aside the question of how &#8220;left&#8221; the votes of someone who has been voting for Bob Carr, for example, are.)</p>
<p>Incumbency seems to be a pretty big advantage in Australia most of the time. The Australian voter is a cautious beast. I&#8217;m not sure what psychological factors are at work, but I believe it is a real influence on elections.</p>
<p>I have one friend, that I know for a fact, has voted for the incumbent at every single election, state and federal, since he has been able to vote. (1st election 1990). I have another friend who nearly always supports the opposition. To someone who knows them well, this is not all that surprising. It is a comfortable fit with their general approach to life.</p>
<p>Answering FDB&#8217;s question, I believe it is almost impossible for an opposition to appeal to some people. Australian voters are risk averse. Governments really have to make a hash of it for them even to consider voting for change.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Norton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78280</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 05:49:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78280</guid>
		<description>If the papers I read and media I listen to and watch are any guide, Tanya P seems to have built up a head of steam around support for childcare and working parents, and is one of the few Labor frontbenchers who is getting press for her criticisms of the Government rather than of other ALP members and ALP policies.  Childcare and support for working parents is perhaps the main area where Costello failed to deliver on pre-budget promise.  How big a factor might this be in the poll bounce?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the papers I read and media I listen to and watch are any guide, Tanya P seems to have built up a head of steam around support for childcare and working parents, and is one of the few Labor frontbenchers who is getting press for her criticisms of the Government rather than of other ALP members and ALP policies.  Childcare and support for working parents is perhaps the main area where Costello failed to deliver on pre-budget promise.  How big a factor might this be in the poll bounce?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78212</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 02:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78212</guid>
		<description>Liam, it's also worth remembering that there's a degree of accountability with surveys - if they're consistently proved wrong, no one will pay for them.

Andrew Leigh has some cautions about polls in general though:

http://andrewleigh.com/?p=134#comments</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liam, it&#8217;s also worth remembering that there&#8217;s a degree of accountability with surveys - if they&#8217;re consistently proved wrong, no one will pay for them.</p>
<p>Andrew Leigh has some cautions about polls in general though:</p>
<p><a href="http://andrewleigh.com/?p=134#comments" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://andrewleigh.com/?p=134#comments'>[link]</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78210</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 02:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78210</guid>
		<description>It'd be interesting to correlate voting trends with stagnation in the property market - anyone know if this has been done historically?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;d be interesting to correlate voting trends with stagnation in the property market - anyone know if this has been done historically?</p>
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		<title>By: Liam</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78209</link>
		<dc:creator>Liam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 02:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78209</guid>
		<description>Fair enough.
Long ago I used to work on the phones for a market research company and I'm accordingly highly sceptical of most of their social science technique. The scripts we used had some eye-wateringly confusing and leading questions.
&lt;blockquote&gt;On a scale of one to ten, where ten is the highest and one the lowest, describe how much Fabbo laundry powder appeals to your sense of being &lt;i&gt;clean&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough.<br />
Long ago I used to work on the phones for a market research company and I&#8217;m accordingly highly sceptical of most of their social science technique. The scripts we used had some eye-wateringly confusing and leading questions.</p>
<blockquote><p>On a scale of one to ten, where ten is the highest and one the lowest, describe how much Fabbo laundry powder appeals to your sense of being <i>clean</i>.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78201</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 02:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78201</guid>
		<description>Also, Liam, the religious question in the census is worded in such a way that it produces responses which equate to a vague statement of identity as well as strong religiosity. There are surveys which can and do pin people down more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Liam, the religious question in the census is worded in such a way that it produces responses which equate to a vague statement of identity as well as strong religiosity. There are surveys which can and do pin people down more.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78200</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 02:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78200</guid>
		<description>Liam - inevitably those making the argument are righties who support lower taxes, and it seems to me there's a bit of special pleading in there. It may well be that there are some who are in this category, but when you get a poll that's designed to ask people about something concrete and pose alternatives (ie when you know you're getting $6 or $10 a week from the budget tax cuts), then you can have more confidence that people aren't just saying whatever sounds good when questions are posed very generally.

It's also worth reiterating that *not everyone* has to have the view that things are like this - we just need 4% more of voters to shift then Howard's gone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liam - inevitably those making the argument are righties who support lower taxes, and it seems to me there&#8217;s a bit of special pleading in there. It may well be that there are some who are in this category, but when you get a poll that&#8217;s designed to ask people about something concrete and pose alternatives (ie when you know you&#8217;re getting $6 or $10 a week from the budget tax cuts), then you can have more confidence that people aren&#8217;t just saying whatever sounds good when questions are posed very generally.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth reiterating that *not everyone* has to have the view that things are like this - we just need 4% more of voters to shift then Howard&#8217;s gone.</p>
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		<title>By: FDB</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78193</link>
		<dc:creator>FDB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 02:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78193</guid>
		<description>sorry bout the syntax there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry bout the syntax there.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Green</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78192</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 02:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78192</guid>
		<description>Liam: haven't you got the memo? Greed has been re-labelled "aspiration", and aspiration is good. Not one of my Lib/Nat voting friends was ever shy of saying that taxes should be cut, or that government was too large and too generous to too many of the undeserving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liam: haven&#8217;t you got the memo? Greed has been re-labelled &#8220;aspiration&#8221;, and aspiration is good. Not one of my Lib/Nat voting friends was ever shy of saying that taxes should be cut, or that government was too large and too generous to too many of the undeserving.</p>
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		<title>By: FDB</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78190</link>
		<dc:creator>FDB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 02:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78190</guid>
		<description>...or why people vote left in the states and right in the feds. I've actually spoken to two people who voted (I kid you not):

local: Green
state: Labour
federal: Liberal

i.e. "I want MY environment looked after, and want to feel like MY council is looking at the big picture environmentally (local). I want MY kids to have good state schools. I want MY parents to be cared for in old age (state). I want MY country to compete economically (federal)"

How is an opposition supposed to appeal to a voter like that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;or why people vote left in the states and right in the feds. I&#8217;ve actually spoken to two people who voted (I kid you not):</p>
<p>local: Green<br />
state: Labour<br />
federal: Liberal</p>
<p>i.e. &#8220;I want MY environment looked after, and want to feel like MY council is looking at the big picture environmentally (local). I want MY kids to have good state schools. I want MY parents to be cared for in old age (state). I want MY country to compete economically (federal)&#8221;</p>
<p>How is an opposition supposed to appeal to a voter like that?</p>
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		<title>By: Liam</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78185</link>
		<dc:creator>Liam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 02:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78185</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;voters pick a â€œvirtuousâ€? answer as opposed to wanting to seem as if they place their personal advantage over social benefit.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Mark, I'd be interested to know why you think this is wrong. It seems to me to be a perfectly sensible statement about telephone interviewing, for the same reason lots of people describe themselves in the Census as being religious though they don't observe religious custom or ever attend worship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>voters pick a â€œvirtuousâ€? answer as opposed to wanting to seem as if they place their personal advantage over social benefit.</p></blockquote>
<p>Mark, I&#8217;d be interested to know why you think this is wrong. It seems to me to be a perfectly sensible statement about telephone interviewing, for the same reason lots of people describe themselves in the Census as being religious though they don&#8217;t observe religious custom or ever attend worship.</p>
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		<title>By: Sceptical</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78178</link>
		<dc:creator>Sceptical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 01:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78178</guid>
		<description>Now all they need to to is to 'BOUNCE' Beazley and they might have a chance at the next election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now all they need to to is to &#8216;BOUNCE&#8217; Beazley and they might have a chance at the next election.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78170</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 01:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78170</guid>
		<description>If only he'd called an election while Dolly was leader...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If only he&#8217;d called an election while Dolly was leader&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bring Back EP</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78167</link>
		<dc:creator>Bring Back EP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 01:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78167</guid>
		<description>it was fatal and caused the landslide of 96.

Keating thought he could ride it out and the liberals has no one of substance to lead them.

Even when Howard became leader again he didn't think people would vote for him given howard's record and the good economic times.

Fool</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it was fatal and caused the landslide of 96.</p>
<p>Keating thought he could ride it out and the liberals has no one of substance to lead them.</p>
<p>Even when Howard became leader again he didn&#8217;t think people would vote for him given howard&#8217;s record and the good economic times.</p>
<p>Fool</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78163</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 01:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78163</guid>
		<description>Yes, Keating accepts that he wears the blame too. But there's no doubt that the perception that people had voted against a GST and got large scale indirect tax rises was damning for the party's chances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Keating accepts that he wears the blame too. But there&#8217;s no doubt that the perception that people had voted against a GST and got large scale indirect tax rises was damning for the party&#8217;s chances.</p>
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		<title>By: Bring Back EP</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78162</link>
		<dc:creator>Bring Back EP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 01:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78162</guid>
		<description>Robert,

you are missing the point.
Howard is attempting to:

a) change the subject

b) create mischief and mayhem in the ALP over the issue

Mark,

Smoking Joe resigned not long after having delivered that budget. He had no options given Keating's extravagance.
Repealing the tax cuts was impossible, so was a drastic cutting of expenditure which left the lift in sales tax.

Keating would have known this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert,</p>
<p>you are missing the point.<br />
Howard is attempting to:</p>
<p>a) change the subject</p>
<p>b) create mischief and mayhem in the ALP over the issue</p>
<p>Mark,</p>
<p>Smoking Joe resigned not long after having delivered that budget. He had no options given Keating&#8217;s extravagance.<br />
Repealing the tax cuts was impossible, so was a drastic cutting of expenditure which left the lift in sales tax.</p>
<p>Keating would have known this.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Posters</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78157</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Posters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 00:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/22/nice-post-budget-bounce-for-the-alp/#comment-78157</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Why the disconnect between the commentariat and the polls.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The commentariat always take a while to catch up with the prevailing mood in the community - this isn't a new phenomenon.

It is possible that the people have in fact turned on Howard, but that wouldn't fit with the Howard-as-everyman/political-genius storyline.

On the other hand, there's always another scare campaign in the bottom drawer come election time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Why the disconnect between the commentariat and the polls.</p></blockquote>
<p>The commentariat always take a while to catch up with the prevailing mood in the community - this isn&#8217;t a new phenomenon.</p>
<p>It is possible that the people have in fact turned on Howard, but that wouldn&#8217;t fit with the Howard-as-everyman/political-genius storyline.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there&#8217;s always another scare campaign in the bottom drawer come election time.</p>
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