In a timely fashion considering Kim’s response to Tim Blair’s baiting about whether progressives would condemn abstinence-only sex-education at a Muslim school in Australia in the same way as when it’s advocated by Christians (yes, of course we would), Zuzu at Feministe posted this:
“Where is the outrage? I can guarantee the tone of Newsweek’s piece would be far different if this were an Al Qaeda-funded videogame being distributed in the Arab world and advocating the murder of Christians as infidels. Just imagine the outrage at a game just like this one, but with a Muslim rather than Christian focus”
Zuzu’s talking about a new videogame based on Timothy LaHaye’s bestselling Left Behind novels, set in a post-Rapture USA:
These pictures above and below are from Talk to Action, who give a graphic description of the game:
“Imagine: you are a foot soldier in a paramilitary group whose purpose is to remake America as a Christian theocracy, and establish its worldly vision of the dominion of Christ over all aspects of life. You are issued high-tech military weaponry, and instructed to engage the infidel on the streets of New York City. You are on a mission – both a religious mission and a military mission — to convert or kill Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, gays, and anyone who advocates the separation of church and state – especially moderate, mainstream Christians. Your mission is “to conduct physical and spiritual warfare”; all who resist must be taken out with extreme prejudice. You have never felt so powerful, so driven by a purpose: you are 13 years old.” [...]
“This game immerses children in present-day New York City — 500 square blocks, stretching from Wall Street to Chinatown, Greenwich Village, the United Nations headquarters, and Harlem. The game rewards children for how effectively they role play the killing of those who resist becoming a born again Christian.” [...]
“Is this paramilitary mission simulator for children anything other than prejudice and bigotry using religion as an organizing tool to get people in a violent frame of mind? The dialogue includes people saying, “Praise the Lord,â€? as they blow infidels away.”
As Zuzu says:
“This would not pass the media’s smell test if the dialogue included people saying “Praise Allah.â€? But because it involves Christian themes, it’s being marketed to teenagers, with high hopes that it will be a mainstream hit and a big Christmas-season seller.”
So, I’m curious. Is it OKIYAC (OKayIfYouAreChristian) or are games with such bigoted violence at their core to be equally condemned no matter what religion the holy genocidal warriors may be? And what about the links between the gamemakers and a megachurch?
Crossposted at my blog, Hoyden-About-Town. Thanks, Mark, for inviting me to join the posters at LP.
UPDATE: For contrast, as mentioned in comments below, here’s a Reuters report reacting to a videogame presented to a Congress Committee by the DoD as an al Qaeda recruiting tool (and if it weren’t for gaming blogs recognising it as a parody from a game modification fan-site the DoD and MSM would probably be still trying to tell us this was a real al Qaeda plot). But apparently violent games only count as “a global propaganda campaign by … militants to exhort … youths to take up arms” when they’re showing Iraquis fighting Americans.
I downloaded America’s Army. It was a boring game. A cardinal sin is to make experienced players go through training in the game. I have been button-mashing since age 10, and am an experienced online player of first person shooters. Making me go through training? Heh. I shot the sergeant and was thrown in the brig.
The point I am trying to make with that anecdote is; that ideology doesn’t matter in a game. If it is a good game, then it is entertainment, not ideology. If it is a bad game, it won’t be played. America’s Army was a bad game. That may not have been their intention, but whatever their intention was, I didn’t play it.
I have also shot all manner of things in first person shooters too. All nationalities, all sexes, all religions, even all economic and political classes have taken some kind of pixellated round to the head from my pointer finger over the years I have been playing.
I don’t think it matters.
Welcome to LP, tigtog!
I think we should just all be happy that it doesn’t star Kirk Cameron.
Kudos for such a non-stoushy debut!
Thanks, Mark!
I agree, Cameron, that there’s a lot of overblown hysteria about the effect of games on those who play them. Jack Thompson, an infamous videogame critic quoted in the Talk To Action post, is a huge activist against first-person-shooter games with very little actual evidence or effect. I find his response to this game priceless – he’s only upset with this game because players can choose to be on the side of the AntiChrist and gun down Christian ‘good guys’ as one of the gaming options.
However: only two weeks ago there were actual spokesmen from the US Dept of Defense who claimed that al Qaeda were altering games to make insurgents the shooters, and there was huge rounds of condemnation for this ‘obvious’ powerful recruiting tool. That story turned out to be a false alarm, with the DoD having been taken in by a joke.
Either these games have power to influence behaviour or they don’t. If it’s underhanded irresistible recruitment when al Qaeda is supposed to produce it, then why isn’t it underhanded irresistible recruitment when LaHaye et al produce it?
I forgot the link to the DoD cockup story.
[link]
Hey, tigtog, excellent to see you here!
We’ll send you the
naked feminist knitting circleCOLLECTIVE FEMINIST HIVE MIND manual via evil thoughtwaves of leftist thought control!tigtog: “…then why isn’t it underhanded irresistible recruitment when LaHaye et al produce it?”
Well, maybe because there’s no place to recruit *to*. As far as I know, there aren’t thousands of armed militant underground Christian cells all over the planet, stocking up on weapons, conducting terrorism training, and spreading an ideology of mass murder that is, in any event, a contradiction of Christianity to begin with. But maybe there are such groups, and I’m just not on their email list.
I should add that I am shocked and disturbed by the existence of this game. Are we sure it’s not a prank? My point above, however, is simply that the parallel construction tigtog argues with is invalid, because the two sides being compared are not, well, comparable, in these terms.
No, j_p_z, but you’d be aware that in countries like Australia and America, there are Muslims to bash and mosques to burn down. I don’t wish to sound alarmist, but shortly after s11, a school bus taking kids to a Muslim primary school was stoned in Brisbane, and there was a huge spike in reports of violent actions against Islamic women. Then we’ve got the Cronulla riots.
j_p_z, Mark makes a strong point about the mindset of harassing ordinary Muslims and thuggery against them which already exists just awaiting a spark, and groups such as the KKK in your own recent history shows how such recruitment can mushroom.
I would also argue that the equivalance between the anti-Western Islamic militia groups that produce suicide bombers and the anti-NWO Christian militia that produced Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing is far greater than you are presenting.
The thing is, there’s actually a long list of far-right thuggery extending to bombing campaigns in democratic, English-speaking countries in the very recent past. The Atlanta bomber, a right-wing supremacist, killed two people and wounded over 120 in attacks on a gay bar, two abortion clinics and the Atlanta Olympics.
Three nail bombs planted by a right-wing supremacist in London in 1999 killed three people, including a pregnant woman in a London gay bar, and also targeted ethnic minority communities in Brick Lane and Brixton. 139 people were injured, some losing limbs.
Both campaigns seem to have been individuals, but Northern Ireland also has armed militias with links to the English far-right. See article from the Guardian in May this year and this 2005 Guardian article.
To my mind, the moral equivalence that should be rejected here is the one that says, because the video game involves “Christians” it’s ok, but if it involves Muslims then it’s bad.
If it’s wrong in one case, it’s wrong in every case.
Oh, and thanks for the kind remarks, Anna and Kim.
Does this mean I have to learn to knit?
Well there was the Al Qaeda video –
I was just a boy when the infidels came to my village in Blackhawk helicopters…
I admit it. I take vast joy in the needless deaths of innocent videogame creatures.
Die, you green-haired beasts!
(NB. Severe nostalgia warning)
Anthony’s already linked to one article on it, but here’s more detail: Confirmed: US Representatives shown parody videogame as evidence of terrorist activities.
Yes, that’s the story I alluded to in comment #4. How many millions were being spent so that the Dept of Defence could monitor the internets in search of terrorist activity? What a terrific result.
As the student who made the parody asked, if they call his little joke clip al Qaeda, what else are they calling al Qaeda when it really isn’t? Is al Qaeda anything like as large and pervasive as we are told?
Nice to see you come over to the Purple Site, mentis fugit.
Welcome Tigtog and no, the knitting is not compulsory. As far as I know, only two of the LP
Feminazi Borgposters knit (myself and Naomi, though I really can see Shaun knitting himself an AC/DC scarf).
As for the game. Blurgh. Like most people my age, I think the biggest risk from video games is obesity, but this game just seems rather stupid.
Mark/tigtog/morgan: “…September 11… Cronulla…KKK…Timothy McVeigh/OKC… Atlanta Olympics… Northern Ireland (?!!)…”
While I am perfectly willing to accept the fundamental assertion under all of this that ‘fanatical violence is bad,’ you have put an enormous number of phenomena, with discrete and complex histories, into a salad bowl. This weakens any attempt to render the initial post’s analysis compelling in a meaningfully analytical way, beyond saying ‘evil is bad,’ — upon which I hope we can all agree.
I don’t want to make detailed counter-arguments about the many ways these references go off the rails, because I don’t want to be mis-construed as seeming to defend the various monsters you cite.
So I’m gonna bow out of this thread, un-convinced that there’s a useful point to mull over this time, that doesn’t descend into either generalities or false analogies. But I do agree. Evil is bad.
j_p_z, I’d say it’s pretty easy to see how encouraging people to regard Muslims as terrorists and objects and things to be killed doesn’t contribute to happy community relations.
Thanks for the welcome, Kate.
As to the game being stupid, most of the world seems fairly bemused by the Left Behind series, except for those with strong enough dispensationalist premillennial sympathies (or at least curiosity) that they bought 63 million books. That’s a big marketing base for the game.
j_p_z: it’s no hoax – here’s the game’s official website, with links to ABC news coverage.
[EDIT: sorry, I hadn't seen you last comment when I posted the above]
No-one’s asking you to defend such stuff, j_p_z. It’s great that you’re not defending it. But are you telling people you know how awful it is, blogging about it, writing letters to your local paper about it, etc? Because that’s what happens when people think the Muslims are creating games like this.
Kim, I agree with that general assertion. What I object to is the intellectual/rhetorical strategy, employed by the post, of drawing an equivalency between two wildly different phenomena. It doesn’t make for convincing argument, scores points that a ref would throw the flag on, and leads only to further misunderstandings about all the phenomena involved. I cite the above citations as a citation. In a cite-y sort of way, with citings and citey-cites.
In other words, calling the post ‘Goose. Gander’ is simply inaccurate. It should have been called something like ‘Xylophone. Walrus.’
tigtog — yoiks, that’s creepy. I was really hoping it was a joke.
Tracky-backy thingy-wingy: http://darrylrosin.blogspot.com/2006/06/crazy-protestant-end-of-worlders.html
Well, I’ll let tigtog speak for herself, j_p_z.
Darryl, didn’t know you had a blog! I’ll go link to it!
Tigtog, yes, the rise (resurgence?) of millenarianism is frightening, and this game is deeply disturbing, and stupid, and wrong. I didn’t mean to dismiss those concerns by calling it stupid. I do think video games have little effect on people’s proclivities for violence in general, even though speicifically I think this game is not a good thing.
j_p_z, I simply don’t see the “God, Guns and Guts” Protestant militia movements as wildly different from violent Islamic malcontents at all. Same for the IRA and the British far-right-wingers. As Darryl points out, the USA militia movements have rallies where tens of thousands attend and hear messages of support from President Bush – they’re right up there with the Taliban’s influence in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
All these holy-warrior malcontent movements have discrete and complex histories influencing their decision to train for violence and ultimately to commit that violence in the name of God and after praying together over the Bible, just as the Muslim groups do after praying over the Koran. There’s nothing unique about the Christian extremists’ malalignment with the mainstream culture of the nations they live in, except that in your country the nation’s leader sends them messages to play at their rallies.
So yes, lumping them all together is overly simplistic, but that’s exactly what I meant about goose:gander – we do that with violent extremist groups in Islamic nations all the time. Aren’t their discrete and complex histories more important than their shared religion if that’s what you claim for the Chrisitan extremists?
Kate, I didn’t think you wer being dismissive, I just used your remark as a jumping off point. So no worries.
tigtog said- “I simply don’t see the “God, Guns and Gutsâ€? Protestant militia movements as wildly different from violent Islamic malcontents”
I don’t see any car bombings or buildings being destroyed by airliners piloted by non-Muslim terrorists or televised beheadings, either. As for the nut-cases like McVeigh (no tthe on playing for Essendon), I’m pretty sure that they are actively pursued – didn’t McVeigh get executed?
You also said – “the USA militia movements have rallies where tens of thousands attend and hear messages of support from President Bush – they’re right up there with the Taliban’s influence in Afghanistan and Pakistan”
Your moral relativism is shows the moral bankruptcy of the left. Perhaps you could explain how the practices of the Taliban are equivalent to the practices demonstrated in the US o A. I must have missed the news of the females being baneed from education, the females being executed in football stadiums, the harbouring of terrorists like bin Laden. Please do expand.
I don’t support the far-right christian fundamentalist views, but they don’t equate to the Taliban. And the anti-IRA forces in NI are mainly criminals protecting their turf from the IRA criminals.
Razor, it’s you who are playing moral games. If right wing dispensationalists and their militias and terrorists aren’t as bad as the Taliban, then you propose, by some sort of species of relativism demonstrating the moral bankruptcy of the right, to completely ignore what is bad about them. Well go tell that to the maimed and dead from Oklahoma.
And I’d suggest you look into the sort of society Preacher LaHaye and his mob (as Tigtog points out, he’s sold 64 million books, so it’s not exactly a fringe) would like to establish before you jump to conclusions.
Kim – you need to improve your speed reading skills.
The Oklahoma bombers were actively pursued and McVeigh was executed. The other guy should have been also.
What is ‘bad’ about the right-wing christian fundamentalists is not “completely ignored” – you are making this up and the facts clearly demonstrate that illegal activities are prosecuted.
If these things are completely ignored why was McVeigh executed? Why did Waco happen? How come the ATF and the FBI actively conduct operations against these extremists??
Where is the evidence for these claims??
I’m not talking about the legal responses to McVeigh and co, Razor, but your claim that because the dispensationalists purportedly aren’t as bad as the Taliban, that proves anything about the “moral relativism” of the left. Again, I’d suggest that you take an interest in the kind of theocratic society LaHaye would like to see built in America.
I don’t give a toss what sort of theocratic society any nut wants to have in the US of A or Australia because they ain’t going to win any elections to allow them to impose this. And my limited understanding of both the Australian and US Constitutions probably don’t allow it. To claim that these nut cases are comparable to the Taliban is not supported by facts. People can believe whatever they want, but if they start criminal activities they are pursued. They are only tolerated while they remain within the law. Unlike the Taliban, which was the law. I can accept that both groups are fundamentalists but to say they are equivalent is dissembling of the highest order.
Razor, I’m not sure what protection you think the Constitution is going to be from a President who believes he’s above it.
Bush has stated clearly that his “signing statements” override laws enacted by Congress, and is attested as having called the Constitution a “goddamn piece of paper”.
As reported in The Boston Globe:
“President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution. Among the laws Bush said he can ignore are military rules and regulations, affirmative-action provisions, requirements that Congress be told about immigration services problems, ”whistle-blower” protections for nuclear regulatory officials, and safeguards against political interference in federally funded research.”
Oh, and here’s one of the Reuters reports reacting to the parody video presented to a Congress Committee by the DoD as a recruiting tool (and if it weren’t for gaming blogs the DoD and MSM would probably be still trying to tell us this was a real al Qaeda plot). Just to buttress the original point of the article that MSM reaction would be totally different if this game was based on Muslim warriors for the Lord instead of Christian ones.
I’m reminded of late 80s New York hardcore band, Ludichrist, with their classic song Blown Into The Arms of Christ:
Sitting waiting for the rapture,
Everybody killed.
Playing nuclear religion,
Its prophecy fullfilled
Blown into the Arms of Christ
Shot to hell the heathens burning,
They never cared.
All the rightous people yearning,
They’ve been prepared.
Blown into the Arms of Christ
For the good, it’s glorifying,
It’s salvation time.
For the rest it’s horrifying,
It’s armageddon time.
Blown into the Arms of Christ
If it isn’t on the soundtrack it should be. I said “Hey waiter! There’s god in my soup?!”
Shaun, I so wish that was on the soundtrack, but I suspect the producers lack sufficient IMS cred.
how funny was the islamicist prank mod of america’s army?!?!
roflao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111oneoneone
ao
ao
ao
…
(the sound of my ass in echoe after being laughed off’d)
kim sez:
“Like most people my age, I think the biggest risk from video games is obesity, but this game just seems rather stupid.”
hmm, for me, before the point of obesity (and what perhaps leads to it), it is the addiction factor. If I start playing, I can’t quit; I need to finish the game. This is fine if it is Quake 4 and I finish in two days. However if it is Galactic Civilisations, I need to eventually force myself away from the computer. I have replaced these little game playing breaks with gym, which is good cause I actually return from the gym.
I think my game playing was mostly a control thing, like I want to regain some, while escaping from daily phd grind (I like RTS). This is still ideological I think but pre-narrative, in that it is not articulated with my behaviour in any meaningful way. I can of course refuse such meaningfulness and know full well it is a waste of time. Total waste of time!!!! HAHA!
Then I start blogging…
I think there ought to be a bit more realism here.
The major flaw in your thinking on this thread is that a post rapture world wouldn’t have more than a handful of Christians in it,since the whole meaning of the rapture is the ‘catching up’ of the Church – the true believing Christians! And the only believers ‘left behind’ would be either Jewish Christians set apart to warn Israelis to repent, or people who turn to God after the ‘rapture’, who will be terribly persecuted and harrassed by the ‘one-world government’ of the ‘Beast’.
So, presumably the people engaged in any kind of resisance movement a gainst the ‘Beast’ would comprise of post-rapture reformed Christians, who will be killed if they’re discovered without the ‘mark’ in their forhead or right hand (that’s the giste of the book series). So I don’t think you need fear a militant uprising from present day genuine Christians.
There seems to be an alarming move towards tarring Christians with the same brush as militant Islamists.
A couple of things – the 25 000 strong “battle cry” rally I referred to wasn’t a militia event. It was a mainstream Christian youth event that presented a future of militarised violence for Christianity in America, which I find more disturbing. There’s an growing identification, particularly in the US, of Christianity with armed struggle and good things rarely come out of that sort of combination. (“Down with that sort of thing” as a certain man of the cloth used to say)
Razor says: “I don’t see any car bombings or buildings being destroyed by airliners piloted by non-Muslim terrorists or televised beheadings, either.”
Razor doesn’t see these sorts of attacks because they are almost impossible to pull off in countries with a functioning law-and-order system. Which sort of underlies the point that terrorism is a *policing* problem not a *military* problem. And militarizing police activities is another one of those combinations that really don’t go well together.
Razor’s later dismissal of the troubles in Northern Ireland as merely “criminals protecting their turf” reinforces the point about double standards – when white christians conduct bombing campaigns and carry out public executions it’s merely crims getting up to their tricks. When dark skinned heathens do the same it’s a war on civilisation.
And since we’re talking, let me also point out another obvious: Iraq’s not just lawless, there’s a guerrilla war in progress, and the entire point of a guerrilla war is to wear down the occupying power until they are so sick and tired of being there that they pack up and go home. There’s no comparision to draw between activities in that environment and in quite developed counties like the US.
*quiet* developed countries like the US.
(oh Firefox, why haven’t your developers used NSSpellCheck fo text entry fields?)
OK, apologies, tigtog, looking more closely at the game, it’s actually set at the the very end of time when Jesus comes with the armies of heaven to clean things up, again after the rapture, but right on ‘Armageddon’. Now that’s scarey! A time when the only people left on earth are the ones who have refused to accept God, and have chosen to rebel against him, and he has had to come and sort everything out so he can start everything over with a new earth! So it’s just another ‘apocalyptic’ game.
I find games like this a complete waste of time, but I can see your concerns. However, I don’t think it’s going to breed an army of militant Christians overnight, though! Most of the kids who are interested in this game will have some grasp of the time phase, and probably have all the ‘bad’ stuff anyway. I can’t see it as a deliberate strategy by so-called ‘dominionists’ to recruit Christian suicide bombers! I mean, where’s the conspiracy theory coming from now?
In fact, the article you linked to poured out some extremely libellous acccusations against Rick Warren, suggesting he had an agenda to murder and mame Muslims, Jews, Bhuddists and anyone who didn’t accept Jesus. No direct connection, or links to anything in any way substantial in the way of evidence, just pure and very poor unjournalistic slanderou=s innuendo. The sort of stuff the Victrian Islamic Council would use for a court case for sure. I hope you didn’t believe it! The old ‘Google-god’ ‘research’ mechanism again! Lord spare us!
Thanks for the correction on the rally, Darryl – I guess I read too quickly and took the militaristic component you described as representative of a militia-sponsored event.
FaceLift, the point of the article was to point up the double standard towards this sort of thing – violent shooter games made by Muslims presented as recruiting tools, violent shooter games made by Christians given a free pass. Whether such games actually are recruiting tools is kinda beside the point – why is the reaction so different purely according to perceived origin of the games?
As to your understanding of just how many Christians are raptured in the Left Behind saga’s point of view, you might be surprised at just how few there are. If you’re not an inerrantist conservative evangelical Christian of a particular stripe, you’re not taken up. It doesn’t quite gel with your impression of most churchgoing Christians being raptured, not at all. That’s part of the point – LaHaye and Warren don’t actually think most so-called Christians really are saved Christians, and they think you will be left behind at the Rapture and taken in by the Anti-Christ and have to be converted or purged.
Just because they pray from the same book as you doesn’t mean they respect you or view you as a true brother in Christ.
tigtog,
I agree that violent shooter games aren’t good for anyone. And it disturbs me that a growing number of Christians are engaging in this pastime. It is also upsetting that there is a game which purports to be ‘Christian’ based coming on the market. I’m not sure where the crossover is between fun and reality when it comes to the ‘let’s nuke ‘em’, ‘blast ‘em outta the sky’, ‘kill ‘em’ solution to problems. I don’t suppose a game which featured reason, diplomacy and tact would sell quite as well.
Rick Warren is actually criticised by some Christian leaders for being rather too theologically soft on people when it comes his philosophy of what it means to be considered a Christian, so I can’t agree with your observation on his supposed exclusiveness. He’s regarded by some as overly inclusive, although I tend to think he has largely got it right when he defines a Christian as someone who acknowledges Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and determines to live their life according to NT Biblical principles.
His doctrine is fundamentally Baptist, which is widely accepted as middle-of-the-road, conservative (ina traditional sense), evangelical, and is quite Calvinistic in his approach. I can’t remember seeing anything by him on the rapture, although he would obviously have a view, but it certainly isn’t an emphasis as you imply. He is mainly interested in what he terms ’seeker-sensitive’ approach to presenting the gospel, which would exclude anything suggested in the article you linked to, because he does everything he can to prevent offending those who are not yet Christians.
I’m not even sure what you think his connection with Tim La Haye is. I can’t remember hearing him speak on ‘dominion’ theology either. When he speaks of ‘armies’ and ‘warfare’, he’s refering to Paul’s observation that, ‘The weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds; casting down reasonings, imaginations, arguments and every high thing which exalts itself against the knowledge of God’. In other words, he’s is more involved in training an ‘army’ of people who can pursuade seekers to accept Christ, than a militant force of killers!
If you check out His church, Saddleback Community Church, site http://www.saddleback.com/flash/believe2.html you’ll be aableto read what they really believe, and see that they currently have a strategy to do all they can to emotionally and medically assist AIDS sufferers http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/careprayerhelp/support_groups/article.asp?id=7484 and help people whoa re struggling in their community in a number of ways http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/careprayerhelp/support_groups/ . Hardly the dream off a man who supposedly wants to kill gays on the last day!
Er, That should be ‘his’ church, not ‘His’ church. And the comment is in moderation, for some strange reason!
Your comment went into moderation because it contained more than two hyperinks, FaceLift, that’s all.
Warren’s “What we believe” explicitly excludes any Christians who espouse works as well as faith, and any who believe in an inspired but not inerrant Bible. So that’s all mainstream Catholic Christians, Orthodox Christians, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Quakers, many Lutherans, and goodness knows how many more churchgoing Christians who, in Warren’s view as well as LaHayes’, won’t qualify for the Rapture. I don’t want to debate the theology of FaithplusWorks vs. Faith alone, but you acknowledge that the doctrinal division exists, do you not?
The ties between Warren and LaHaye are those of business – the creation of the corporation which created this game based on LaHayes’ novels and the marketing of same through megachurches. Either Warren endorses LaHayes’ Dominionist theology or he’s willing to make money from it despite not believing it. Either way he doesn’t look too righteous.
I think for the most part the Christian Gamer Menace angle is a little overblown.
Most ‘Christian’ games are much more about tapping into the latent fundamentalist Christian market, providing ‘godly’ alternatives to the hellish, sinful, and y’know, actually fun to play computer games currently on the market than making new converts.
This is amply demonstrated by the Left Behind games, which penalise players for killing innocents (aww…), and make conversion (boooooooooring) the key to victory rather than good ol’ fashioned slaughter.
At that rate, Left Behinders, Satan is going to rule the video game industry for many fun, profitable millenia to come…
As I understand it amongst all the claims and counterclaims about the game, you only lose spiritual points for killing innocents (defined as what exactly? – probably not anyone who has refused to join the Tribulation Force even if not actively fighting for the Anti-Christ). There are still points for winning the battle and killing the bad guys, and the spiritual points can be recharged by finding a quiet corner to pray in for a while.
Methinks those who just want to ratchet up a high score won’t care about blowing away innocents when it’s so easy to make up the spiritual points.
OK tigtog, without going into a debate about works/faith doctrine, it’s also true to say that millions of believers are in agreement with the Bible which says ’salvation is by grace through faith without works, but you demonstrate your faith by good works once you’re saved’ doctrine, which is evangelical, orthodox, standard, traditional and widely accepted, and which Warren clearly teaches, making him as conservative as any Protestant.
Can you show me where the business connection beetween Warren and La Haye is?
Being successful merely means Rick Warren is good at what he does and is successful. I can’t see why anyone would have a prroblem with that. Did you know he no longer takes a salary from his church? Why is this? Because he is a successful author. Why is that? Because millions of Christians like reading his books!
Why will people buy this game? Because the books were so successful. Why? Because people enjoyed the stories (semi fictional) and bought millions of books. Is there some problem here with Christian authors being successful? When you sell heaps of books you tend to make heaps of money! What’s it to you if a Christian sells fiction which earns him/her a living? Why does a series of books about well known and documanted Biblical end time events make Tim La Haye a dangerous man?
Has Monopoly produced a swag of killer property magnates? Will the Da Vinci Code produce hoards of murderous conspiracy theorists? Should we hide our playing cards in case they inspire dangerous ‘Bridge’ clubs into becoming gangs?
And I’m in moderation again, with no links involved.
From the previews it sounds like spiritual points are like ‘mana’ in most RTS’s, and losing them aids the Eeeeevil UN Forces of Doom, and the Gamespot review seems to suggest that ‘civilians’ means non-raptured average joes who aren’t in the Trib force.
Either way, who (besides someone who already digs this stuff) is going to play a preachy squad-combat shooter, when there are dozens of equally-good-if-not-better tactical combat games out there, without all the Jesus stuff awkwardly shoved in.
Rick Warren did not make any money for his over-rated book.
given its stunning popularity I was have been tempted by just a few grand but not rick.
I do admire his values. A pity Hillsong doesn’t completely copy them.
Back refreshed from my arvo out: dunno why that other comment went into moderation, FaceLift – the spaminator has a mind of its own.
I have no problem with Warren or LaHaye being successful from their entertainment endeavours with their books, or at least only to the same degree I am concerned by those authors who are successful writing slasher-novels full of dead women – I disapprove of their choice of subject matter as cynical manipulation of base emotions, but do not claim any right to stop them publishing.
I do have some concern with the megachurch trend towards worship-tainment, as to me such appears to again appeal to emotion rather than thoughtfulness, and I think religion is a matter worth being thoughtful about whether one is personally religious or not.
The thing is, tigtog, that pastors of ‘megachurches’ are merely demonstrating a greater ability to manange and oversee a large work than pastors of smaller churches. This doesn’t diminish the role of pastors of small churches. In fact, most churches average less than 60 people.
This, however doesn’t mean that there won’t or can’t be church leaders with the skills necessary to create an environment of a number of smaller ‘churches’, or congregations, within a larger structure of ‘megachurch’, whihciss exactly the makeeup of Saddleback Church. If you were to investigate the setup of a ‘megachurch’ you would se that the primary ability of the main leader is to gather other leaders, which means that the secondary, or even sub-sub leaders are being primarily nurtured in leadership skills to bring through other leaders. So the emphasis at this level is not just on people skills, but on leadership skills. Those leaders in turn train others to help meet the needs of the people they serve.
This is exactly the pattern Jethro gave to Moses when he was attempting to do all the work in the wilderness of leading something like 3 million Israeli’s without the assistance of other leaders. Jethro told Moses to raise up leaders under him, or he’d kill himself under the weight.
Rick Warren’s ability to sell books is the linked this. He’s simply a leader of leaders. We need these people in every walk of life, why not in the Church? Other leaders of smaller works identify with his ability to demonstrate quality leadership skills. John C. Maxwell, who grew more than one church from small to mega, now tours and trains leaders exclusively, and is recognised in this capacity. This is called ‘Apostolic’ leadership.
The concept of the megachurch isn’t unique to our times. The first ever church at Jerusalem was, by all accounts, a ‘megachurch’. It’s problem was that it didn’t take the gospel out from Jerusalem as instructed by Jesus, so ultimately it was dispersed by other, less enjoyable means, ie a major persecution, but it meeant that other ‘megachurches’ were planted in the regions, and were genrally represented by a large city church, such as at Antioch.
In fact, the idea of smaller local churches existing in the same cities comes much later, and after several schisms caused small groups to break away from the main churches to set up new churches because of a doctrinal difference, which is the situation we have today. It may be that God is bringing about a revival of the large church concept so thaat more needs can be met by a single church then a flotillaa of small churches acting independent of each other.
A service at Saddleback involves multimedia presentation, drama, songs, all linked to a thematic message. This seems ot me to be rather sensible, and completely in line with 21st Century tech. If it’s available use it. It’s only light and power. jersus used drama in his sermons. In fact he only spoke to his Jewish audience in parables, and with farming or domestic life, or fishing illustrations, so they had sometihn to work with.
Jesus also used every means at his disposal to reach a large audience when the need was required, as illustrated when the multitudes gathered, and over 5,000 men (plus their families) gathered in one meeeting, with a valley-hill setting to improve accoustics, and, in practical terms, he had to miraculously feed them. Mark talks about a similar event when 4,000 men and families gathered. That’s a megachurch event. And Jesus always chose the best speaking vantage point to get his message across. Once he asked a fisherman disciple to push his boat out into the lake so the sound would carry across the water so the crowd that had gathered could hear.
I don’t know if you’ve read Rick Warrens books, but they are basically teaching books, giving practical lesson on Christian lifestyle, or training for leaderss, and far from ‘pull on the heartstrings’ in the manner you suggest. If anything they challenge people to live a godly life. They are not novels in the same way the ‘Left Behind’ books are, but even Tim la haye is renowned for his taeching books on marriage and relationships, which he put out long before entering the world of fiction. He already had an audience. It’s just been expanded.
Jesus told us to go aand make disciples of all nations. He didn’t limit local churches to a certain number. Big or small, all are relevant if they teach godly rpinciples. It’s all down to the leadership skills of the person at the helm. Some have a bigger capacity tthan others.
I know an old fella in Rome who’d fight him for that title.
…
Personally I’ve always thought that the phenomenon of the megachurch is one of the final admissions of defeat, by the Protestant churches at least, in the battle to save the parish structure, and implicitly an admission that the nineteenth-century Christian mode of worship isn’t viable. The megachurch demonstrates not increasing faith, but rather the necessity of concentrating the faithful beause of unviable parishes and dioceses. Small congregations centred geographically don’t work in modern cities.
The megachurch is more importantly an implicit admission of minority status amongst a secular and non-Christian population.
Migrant and splinter churches, like the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches, the Copts, Mormons, the Korean Baptists and so on, who are all by definition minorities, faced up to it a long time ago by doing more and more non-church organising. The Catholics in Australia, by contrast, are still in denial about their minority status: the next ten years are going to be interesting.
Liam,
You’ll find that large churches have their memberships arranged in zoned areas, which would be representative of the old parish setup. These regions are overseen by pastors from the main body, who organise their zones into small groups, which meet during the week for a short time of study, prayer, worship, relationship building, evangelism, and it’s in these groups that much of the growth takes place, because small group members invite friends and relatives to join the group, whihc is more intimate than the main church meetings can be.
The idea is that when the small group grows to a certain number, say between ten or twelve, it sends out a satellite group made up of a few members of the growing small group, which forms a new group. These groups are effective, because people are able to more easily share their needs and have their needs met pactically, and develop friendships within the main body. The small group attendees then gather together with the rest of teh churrch body in the main church events on a Sunday. This is the basic pattern for church growth in today’s social climate, and has been explosive in some regions of the world. Chuches of thousands have grown up everywhere using this method, which is reminiscent of the original church growth strategy off the Book of Acts.
Another strategy is the planting of regional churches which are satellites of the main megachurch. In a major city, smaller churches from the main church arre planted in the suburbs, aand paastored by leaders who have been trained in the main megachurch. Again these are representative of the parish system.they also gather together for major events hosted by the main city church.
FaceLift, there’s no denying that the planting of small groups that are all kept in touch with the umbrella of the larger church has been an amazingly effective form of proselytisation.
Amway and other multi-level marketing groups operate on exactly the same principle, and the large convention events are all about sheer emotional impact.
The effectiveness of such techniques in gaining adherents who are attracted by group socialisation and massed emotional buzz has little to do with the ultimate worth of the underlying message.
No, tigtog, Amway have taken a basic evangelism and discipleship component of the Church and applied it to their business strategy. It works for them as well, but I don’t think small groups are any different the house church movement of the Book of Acts, when believers went from house to house. It’s about building relationships with other people who are already in the church and opening up to people outside.
By the way, I’m not into multilevel marketting, especially in the Church, but I don’t think it should be regarded as any different from other forms of business such as plumbing, landscaping, or market gardening. I agree that Amway conventions have an emotional thrust, and fire people up to be better businesspeeople, and thiss has its difficulties if they don’t succeed, but it’s just basic business technique, and should be treated as such.
Church small group development is about building community rather than an emotional buzz. It’s more about family and relationship than business, remembering that family is basically ‘group socialisation’, as you put it, and this is perfectly natural.
Hey, though, is there a problem with actually experiencing an emotional buzz about God? Imagine how Peter felt when he hit the revelation that Jesus was the Christ! Why should Chrustians go around looking like they’ve been sucking lemons, when they’ve been allowed into the family of the Creator of the Universe. It doesn’t makesense!
People want something real and experiencial. Having goose bumps is not the evidence of the presence of God, but it’s sure fun when people actually get excited or passionate about God enough to actually ‘feel’ good! Or cry! Or laugh! Or worsship! Or shout! Or leap and jump! You do it when you’re footy team scores, why wouldn’t you celebrate when God answers prayer?
Oops! Christians, not Chrustians (being mollusks who believe in a Creator)
Nothing against worshippers being joyful and excited, merely wary about the potential for the unscrupulous to fleece the flock.
“Business” programs and rock bands use stadium concerts to sell overpriced merchandise to overexcited fans – is that a model that worshippers of any faith should be glad to see their religious leaders copying? The moneychangers in the temple?
You’re moving a long way away from examining double standards in the reactions to violent entertainment for youths according to whether the perceived origin is Christian or Muslim, by the way.
Excallent point tig. I’ve been to the ‘rallies’ for certain ‘business’ programs. A very effective way of gathering recruits and keeping the faithful in check.
An old bloke who’s been known to wear a beret, Liam!
I think there’s allusion to merchandising in your original piece also, tigtog, or if not in yours certainly in the piece you linked to. I don’t like games which deliberately or inadvertantly encourage people to kill others at all, but that’smy opinion, and I’ve already stated it. So I would agree that it would be equally wrong for a Christian group to set up video games to deliberately train Christians to kill, and hypocritical if they were criticising Islamic militants for producing recruiting games aimed at Islamic youth. But where’s the evidence of either, and, therefore, where’s the evidence of a double standard?
I can’t agree that La Haye’s books are attempting to recruit, although you could say that they have an evangelistic edge, which would mean some people may see something in the books which causes them to be converted to Christianity, which is totally different to being trained to kill non-Christians!
Why do rock musicians sell albums and merchandise? Because the fans want them, and its morte profitable and convenience tosell direct. That’s just business sense. Does every band amke aprofit on its merchandise? I doubt it. Only the successful bands.
If a Christian speaker or leader is popular because his or her message appeals to people, it may be that there is a demand for their messages or training manuals, or they are encouraged to put their messages into book fform so people have access to them, and are able to reference the messages and concepts. If people want to hear a message again they can because we have the technology to produce literature, audio and video. It’s no different to the Bible writers putting down the messages they received unto scrolls for the people to hear again and again, or ecven the ancients handoing the stories down from person to person, generation by generation. Eventaully someone is going to devise a method of making a good message available to the masses.
Wycliffe and Tyndale were persecuted and ostrocised for it, but persisted and made the Bible available to English speaking Christians, and it eventually sold like hot cakes because it was made accessable to the people (once the people had learned to read!), and the Bible is still the number one best seller at all times. They don’t even include it in the best seller lists anymore, because it’s almost a known that it will sell more copies on a regular basis than any other book.
Then the people wanted commentaries on the Bible, and books about various aspect of Christian teachings, the music was available in sheet form, then on plastic, on tape and now on CD, iPod, multiple forms, and made visual on DVD. Just natural progressions, which are actually in accord with God’s mandate to PUBLISH the good news!
So what if churches use lighting and sound to enhance their meetings. God invented them both. What actually is the spiritual difference between a cathedral organ and an amplified guitar? Is there something unholy about a strat? Is there something peculiarly spiritually significant about a timbrel which makes it more ‘anointed’ than a set of Pearl drums, or even Roland electric drums? Does an multimedia projector have more demon attracting qualities than a hymn book?
Who’s this God fellow? I’ll see him in court with my patent documents.
FaceLift, you persist in arguing against what you think I’m saying rather than what I’m actually saying. I don’t believe that videogames actually make gamers more violent, or that they can effectively be used as recruiting tools.
Other people who do believe that connection claimed that violent Muslim videogames were made for the express purpose of recruiting Muslim youths to fight against the USA, and these claims were made in all seriousness in front of a Congressional committee. This link has been published already upthread, along with several other links to the debunking of the military’s claims. Are you willing to concede that the US military, US Congress and the MSM were all concerned about this game as an alleged recuiting tool, but none of them are concerned about the Left Behind game?
The rest of your arguments seem to be trying to convince me that I’m wrong to find the megachurch phenomenon distasteful in its commercial emphasis. Maybe so, but Jesus, Luther and Calvin all had uncomplimentary things to say about the house of God engaging in commerce, so I’m in good company.
Tha page didn’t load, but essentially I agree that it would be a problem if there was any actual evidence that ‘Left Behind’ game adherants were being recruited to do things which attacked US security. I suspect that the US military etc don’t see a threat.
Get used to megachurch. It’s set to be even more mega! And has nothing to do with moneychangers in the Temple!
Exactly. So why did they see a threat in a videogame purporting to shoot people from a Muslim point of view?
Well, probably because there’s more evidence to suggest that radical Muslims are a threat to American security than Christians. But I’m only guessing!
Every society has disaffected minorities who are vulnerable to people stoking tribalised grievances into violence with cunning appeals to perverted forms of religious zeal. Radicalised American Christians are not immune to this exploitation, just as radicalised Irish Christians and radicalised Basque Christians have not been immune, just as disaffected radicalised Islamists have not been immune, and just as radicalised Australian Christians are not immune.
You are being disingenuous.
Disingenuous?
I don’t know of any disaffected, radical Christian groups being incited by the ‘left behind’ series, but if you’ve heard of any please let me know. I particularly don’t know of any in Australia. In fact the love affair of groups like Hillsong and CCC with US preachers would indicate an affinity with the US rather than a threat. I haven’t heard a single Aussie Christian shouting out ‘Death to America’ as heard in Tehran in the 24 hours during a massive rally before their leaders.
Incidentally, Rick Warren is scheduled to be the main speaker at Hillsong Conference next month. I’ve never heard him mention that he’s developing Christian killer squads or suicide bombers, or threaten the US President, or raise up disaffected radicals. He mostly talks about changing people for the better not the worse. Hillsong is known for courting politicians not arranging a coup.
My understanding of the Irish ‘troubles’ is that they date back to times well before the ‘Left Behind’ series was written, like, sometime after Luther uncovered the scandals of the Catholic Church when they were making money out the simple folk by selling relics to release their loved ones from purgatory, or giving people the false opportunity to buy their way into heaven. I think the resultant rise of the Protestant movement had more to do with the conflict in Ireland that Tim la Haye. I believe there was a nothing-to-do-with-Christ religio-political struggle based on the Protestant English ‘invasion’ of Catholic Ireland. I think William of Orange was in there somewhere too. Perhaps a historian can illuminate us.
And I’d never heard of a religious basis for the Basque conflict. Having been caught in Basque student demonstrations during a visit to the bull run in Pamplona one year I can tell you that there was more vino drinking going down than religious chanting or ferver about the Basque riots. I had the impression it was about Basque independence rather than a religious conflict, but there you go!
Perhaps a historian could cure you of your anti-Catholic bias, FaceLift.
And perhaps an understanding of the conflicts between secular liberals and Catholic Catalonians and Basques in the 19th and 20th century, and the Spanish Civil War and its aftermath, the quasi-fascist dictatorship of Franco, and subsequent ramifications, might cure you of glib assumptions about the Basque country.
What’s biased about the truth. Kim? If Catholics were caught selling relics for non-Biblical reasons, and were exposed, which resulted in a reformation, that’s history not bias.
The Irish troubles come out of that history, nothing to do with anythjing remotely connected to Tim la Hayes’ books!
And your own argument about the Basque situation makes that struggle more political than religious.
And you can show me one similarity between those conflicts and the Australian Christians of today?
I didn’t realise the post referred to Australian Christians, FaceLift, I thought it was talking about American Christians. Perhaps the comments thread went in that direction, but I haven’t been reading all of it.
Your phraseology implies an acceptance of 21st century Protestant principles at a time when they made no sense, and in any case, what you’re thinking of is the sale of indulgences. But that was a pretext for the Reformation rather than its cause.
And as to the Basques and the Nationalists and Loyalists in the Six Counties, let’s turn it around. You’re very willing to discount the role of religion in respect of political struggles involving terrorism in European countries. Why then would one assume that Islam was anything other than a particular cultural reflection of political struggles involving terrorism outside Europe?
Kim — you’re being a bit silly, I believe, and I think you probably know it. (tigtog, on the other hand, is also being quite silly, but seems utterly unaware why.)
I grow weary of these comparisons of IRA (and even ETA) terrorism to Islamic terrorism. Read Islamic foundational documents for a crash course in the vast, vast difference betwixt. If there were a vast, vast, global IRA movement calling for the return of Irish/Celtic hegemony over Spain, France, northern Italy, southern Germany and central Turkey (yup, look it up), I might be more inclined to have patience with these peculiar trains of thought. The Irish, having been used as a civilizational punching bag for the better part of seven centuries, want a bit of their ould turf back. In fact, ‘the Irish’ don’t even want this anymore; just a couple of hundred (or maybe dozen; depends whom you believe) quasi-socialist fanatic thugs, who are more responding to Protestant thuggery in their counterparts than to any meaningful world-historical sensibility. Don’t know much about ETA, but I suspect the motive is similarly local, and similarly unrealistic.
Islamic terrorism springs from vastly, vastly different roots. Please stop pretending this isn’t the case. It makes me very, very tired when people do.
btw, free the Toronto 19! Or is it 25? or 50? Innocent victims of those wicked Christian video games, no doubt… my Timothy McVeigh Moral Equivalency device is practically vibrating itself to death…
I am not pretending to believe that current groups of violent terrorists who happen to be Islamic are seeking political goals cloaked with a thin veneer of religiosity at most. I truly believe that is the case, and that such disaffected groups in the Islamic nations are responding from motivations which have nothing to do with “foundational documents” of their religion.
There are more than enough purely territorial explanations for Middle Eastern anti-West activism. Religious rhetoric is being used to manipulate this pre-existing disaffection, as all religions have always been used by rulers/elites to sway the masses to violence, but religion itself is not the root cause of violence against the West.
I agree that video games which promote violence are unhelpful in our present climate.
But I think you’re looking for something which doesn’t and won’t exist when you attempt to fabricate a militant Christian dominionist force-in-waiting which is being spurred on and manipulated by its (according to your theory) ‘leaders’ (La Haye, Warren, etc) through a best-selling book series (based on readily available Biblical information dating back to the books of Daniel and other Jewish prophets, the gospels and book of Revelation) and a resultant video game (based on future apocalyptic events, not present), and attempting to make a comparison between this Chjristian dominionist force, which, as a militant violent army, doesn’t exist, and a violent Islamic militant forrce, which does exist, and is operative.
Every society has marginalised violent weirdos. Waving loaded religious rhetoric around pre-existing violent weirdos is playing with matches. Something is going to end up catching fire.
Do I think LaHaye and Warren (and Robertson, Falwell, Randall, Reed etc) want to directly inspire militant Christianist theocrats to violent action? No, not really (maybe Robertson and Randall). They think they can tap the prejudice for partisan purposes but keep the response within non-violent bounds.
Do I think they’re taking enough care that violent action claiming to be justified by their rhetoric won’t happen? No, not at all.
The double-standard you display while arguing that your religion can’t be perverted by violence because of its inherent (assumed) rightness while the other guy’s religion can be perverted by violence because of its inherent (assumed) wrongness is exactly in keeping with the title of the post.
God told me to invade Iraq – George W Bush
And that’s not even mentioning the unholy alliance between neo-cons and Christian Zionists (who actively *want* a conflagration in the Middle East)…
Double standards? Well, I haven’t said anything can’t be perverted, or anything has an exclusive claim on rightness.
I’ve just asked for evidence that a militant, ‘dominionist’ Christian force, bent on the overthrow of ourn political system by violent means, exists, or let’s say, exists in any significant numbers, especially one that is comparable to the militant Islamic force, which we know exists, and, as j-p-z reminds us, is a worldwide movement. An Islamic video game which trains militants wouldn’t be required to inspire disaffected Muslims to become militant, since there is undenyable evidenc that there are Muslim factions that already are militant, and are a threat to anyone’s security anywhere. You’re saying this video game has the potential to actually create militancy amongst Christians, and is a potential recruitment device, but thereis no eviodence that aa militant, violent dominionist force even exists.
I’ve also stateed that the accusations levelled at Rick Warren are slanderous.
Erm, so now George W is a militant dominionist Christian bent on the overthrow of the US?
No, he’s a dangerous warmonger who believes God talks to him.
If you can demonstrate that the war on Iraq made any positive contribution to deterring terrorism, good luck to you. But almost all the Washington foreign policy community now recognise it’s made things worse.
And video games that portray Muslims as evil hardly help either – they create the conditions under which needless violence proliferates by making a false equation between a religion and “evil” and also encourage violence and discrimination against Muslims living as citizens or residents in America, as pointed out long ago on this thread.
Grow up Mark! Terrorism will be with us whether George W invades Iraq or not. Saddam’s gone, and that must be beneficial. The Taliban are gone, and that must be liberating, especially for Muslims in Afghanistan who want to worship their god their way, without the constraints of an oppressive militant regime telling them what to do and how to do it.
Muslim extremeists attacked New York City. They murdered people they didn’t even know, and they didn’t care. theyjust wanyted to amkee a stateement of war, and hit the heart of western commerce to say ‘We’re here, and we’re gonna hurt you!” They arranged it, organised it, planned it, and carried it out with precision as Islamic militants with a cause! Or are you with the growing club which believes Sept 11 was actually the work of Zionists?
I get the impression militant Islamists are the main threat to worldwide security at present, or do you disagree with this? Who are the main protagonists in Iraq today? Who is blowing up civilians? Who is placing bombs in cars and detonating them? Neo-cons? Zionists? Or do they claim tot be Islamists?
I don’t know. All this dumb Christian dominionist militant army conspiracy talk! Must be 6/6/6 or something!
On a statistical basis and on a real life curve, we have to admit it is radical Muslims that are the threat today.
It was so many others in the past.
But today, it is the radical Muslim brotherhood.
Who can deny that?
FaceLift, the Taliban aren’t gone from Afghanistan. They’ve just ousted some of the US approved warlords, and the province the Australian troops have gone into to assist in “reconstruction” is now largely held by them again. And Osama’s still around. All while the US dropped the ball and forgot about the main game in favour of diversions in Iraq. I support military action in Afghanistan by the way.
The people who are fighting the Americans in Iraq now are largely nationalists.
Don’t be absurd.
re: Facelifts comment“I don’t know of any disaffected, radical Christian groups being incited by the ‘left behind’ series, but if you’ve heard of any please let me know. I particularly don’t know of any in Australia. In fact the love affair of groups like Hillsong and CCC with US preachers would indicate an affinity with the US rather than a threat. I haven’t heard a single Aussie Christian shouting out ‘Death to America’ as heard in Tehran in the 24 hours during a massive rally before their leaders.”
No incitment of radical Christian gps? You mustn’t have been around during the last election Facelift.
Exhibit A
Calls for burning lesbains and witches and throwing eggs at other campaigners.
Exhibit B
“Spot Satan’s strongholds in the areas you are living (brothels, gambling places, bottleshops, mosques, temples — Freemasons/Buddhist/Hindu etc, witchcraft… If you are ready to pray against it do so. If not, bring it to your church and ask your intercessors, through the pastor, to pull these strongholds down.â€?
Heck, even Barnaby calls them loonies and Queensland Greens Senate candidate, Drew Hutton, described them as “thuggish, intolerant people.”
Intolerant, yes, cal, and not worthy of the name of Christ, but eggs are hardly as destructive as bombs, and I think that’s about all the evidence you can hope to produce, thankfully. And praying down spiritual ’strongholds’ is far removed from demolishing occupied buildings with explosives.
I think the radical Christian response politically was made with the ballot, though, cal, and not with a bullet.
Sorry to be rude, Mark. Uncalled for. But look the Taliban may still be around, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been ousted. And Saddam’s war is over, but now it’s a conflict between militants of the same religious order, who both want control of the nation, whihch was always the case, and one day Saddaam would have been gone and all hell would have broken loose, leeading to a massive and violent civil war, which the US and allies have probably hastened on, albeit under a sembalnce of control because they’re there, which is regrettable, but not a reason to pull back from removing a despot who was a threat, or would have been as soon as the UN sanctions heat was off, and had definite ambitions in the ME. The invasions also stopped Gaddaffi in his tracks and caused him to rethink his position and have a major turn around, which was an excellent bonus.
Anyway, guys and gals, my point is that I don’t like video games which promote violence, and that includes what I see of the game in question, but I also don’t think there’s a threat of ‘Left Behind’ gamees breeding a militant Christian army of killers.
No worries, FaceLift, I understand people get passionate about these issues. I do myself!
Jesus, Cal, you collect your info from a Communist Party site to rebut Facelift?
I have no time for Christian happy-clappers, millenarians or fanatics of any stripe. But I will say:
1) Communists can get fucked if they think they can take the moral high ground against religious dogmatists. Check out the leaflet entitled “DSP’s attempt to dress Trotsky in Lenin’s clothes” or some such nonsense here if you want an example of a heresy inquisition no-one could care less about.
2) Cal’s Exhibit A, described as a call for lesbians to be burnt as witches, turns out (from Exhibit B) to be an ill-humoured response to a leading question in the context of two groups of fanatics baiting each other; and
3) The purported author of Exhibit B is the selfsame Pastor done for ‘religious vilification’ in Victoria. Whatever one thinks of that legislation, surely Cal can do better than reaching for ‘dial-a-fanatic’ and wheeling out the same old whipping-boy.
I agree Facelift, totally different from dropping bombs. But my point is that these actions by fundamentalist Christians are making Australia a less tolerant place, leading to further alienation of its Muslim youth, which could lead to terrorist activities.
“Who are the main protagonists in Iraq today? Who is blowing up civilians? Who is placing bombs in cars and detonating them? Neo-cons? Zionists? Or do they claim tot be Islamists?”
I think you are underplaying the amount of killing the Coalition of the Willing is currently doing in Iraq. From where I see it, if you plan and impliment an invasion of another country, all deaths caused from your invasion force, whether accidental or deliberate, is to be attributable to you. The neo-cons and whoever else authorised the invasion have as much blood on their hands as the lunatics who are murdering innocent Iraqi’s with car bombs.
If the politicans/generals etc who have planned the invasion call themselves ‘Christians’ (and use phrases like ‘crusades’ etc) then we have people ordering killing in the name of Christianity just like we have fundamentalists who murder in the name of Islam. From my air conditioned office in Perth I have more to fear from Islamic fundamentalists I agree. But maybe you should put yourself in the shoes of someone in Afghanistan/Iraq/Palestine and ask if they wouldn’t be more fearful of being murdered by US/Israeli soldiers.
Well, cal, I watched the Eagles/Cats AFL game on Saturday, and for some of the match had the sound off, which eenhabnces the visuals, and it was very interesting to see the vitriol displayed by some of the ‘fans’, mostly towards the hapless umpires, which looked extremely violent and threatening, and I’m quite sure that at the time they meant it. BUt you don’t normally see Aussies taking things much further than a mouthful of abuse, or at worse, a bit of biffo. I don’t have any doubt that ffor some fans AFL is a religion and their side is the good side and everyone else is the ‘enemy’, but it doesn’t often slide into murderous warfaree.
Danny Nalia is passionate and vocal, and sometimes over the top, but I don’t see his ‘followers’ as dangerous in an extremist violent way. He, like Danny Scott, whom I’ve met and can say is a very gentle soul, and the least frightening of men, has come out of great persecution, has a death threat over his life for converting to Christianity from Islam, and is an exile from his homeland and family, so knows better than most of us what true persecution is all about. Which may explain his stance against Islam.
FaceLift, despite how much we’ve argued on tangential stuff in this thread, I don’t think our basic positions are actually that far apart on violent videogames, although I’m not sure you share my view that any videogames are unlikely to recruit anyone to actual militant insurrection, which is a point that’s been repeatedly buried.
I still find the beatup from one direction only in the mainstream media regarding violent videogames with a religious worldview behind them to be hypocritical, although I do understand the temptation to demonise the Muslim extremists after the horrors of September 11, and agree that the current conflict in the Middle East makes Muslim extremists more likely to be threats than other disaffected weirdo splinter groups at the moment.
Doesn’t mean that I think we should take our eye off the myriad disaffected weirdo splinter groups with other political agendas though.
Agreed, tigtog!
Thanks for the background on Danny Nalliah, FaceLift.
It probably explains alot of what motivates him to say crazy things to the press. What concerns me is that if he has suffered from persecution overseas why stir up trouble with not only Muslims, but Hindu’s and Buddhists here in Australia? Can he not be happy trying to enrich people’s lives that have chosen Christianity as a faith, rather than belittling those of other faiths.
Do I need to worry now that as a buddhist I have to watch my back when I meditate at one of “Satan’s strongholds” as the church may “pull these strongholds down.” He may be a very gentle soul Facelift, but these statments are of concern to me and probably many other Australians who wish to live in a secular society free from religious bigotry.
Well, it was Danny Scott that I refered to as gentle. I don’t know the other Danny, but as an evangelist he’s likely to be more confrontational.
The ’strongholds’ Christians pull down are actually reasonings, arguments and imaginings. In other words, what I do when I come on here and defend Christian principles is, in effect, attempting to pull down strongholds which are antichristian thoughts, ideas and concepts. I stress ‘attempt’ because the arguments put up here are very strong, and thoughtful in general, and I appreciate that people even bother to respond. It’s more an act of persuasion than a sticks and stones act of violence. I’m not all that good at it, but if you read the works of the Apostle Paul you’ll see the genius of his apologetics.
So if I was to attempt to pull down a stronghold of the Buddhist faith, I would have to come up with an argument which demonstrated some kind of error of thought, and I’m supposed to do it in love, and out opf respect for yoou as a person, not out of spite or to humiliate you.
No, I think you are quite good at putting your point of view across Facelift. I find it hard to debate with anyone who has ‘absolutist’ views, whether its Muslims, Christians, Marxists or even Libertarians. You seem to be willing to put a fair bit of thought into your posts, and you also try to understand other writers arguments, even if they are over passionate sometimes (as I do myself quite frequently).
I still have a problem with the concept of needing to be free of antichristian thoughts, ideas and concepts though. If I do good actions/ thoughts but not accept Jesus Christ as my saviour why does that worry Christians? I’m only using Christians as examples BTW as I went to an Anglican school and was exposed to this line of thought constantly. I suspect I am getting way off topic here and probably need to head off to bed. Good night.