The previous thread “A Lebanese Trigger…” was getting a bit too long, causing loading problems for some. So, here is a general thread for those who wish to continue on the subject of the ongoing Israeli attacks on Lebanese infrastructure, civilians and Hezbollah. These ongoing attacks, apart from those directed at legitimate Hezbollah targets, are by any reasonable objective standard disproportionate, unnecessary, reprehensible and repugnant, precisely because they are killing scores of innocent Lebanese. Some are being killed while fleeing after warnings, but many deaths are the result of the deliberate, wanton destruction of infrastructure. All those innocent civilians had no part to play in Hezbollah’s provocative attacks which kidnapped Israeli soldiers. War crimes have on the face of it been committed by both sides, but with the death rate approaching 400 Lebanese, compared to a total of around 20 Israeli civilian deaths, the geopolitical stakes are getting much higher for the long term consequences of ever finding peace in the Middle East. Escalation to an all out regional war is not beyond the realms of possibility.
We appear to be in unknown territory: the asymmetric warfare we are witnessing is, in my opinion, the new paradigm of non-state/state warfare of the 21 st century, whereby an organisation such as Hezbollah can withstand all the Israelis can throw at it for two weeks, when by comparison the whole Egyptian army was fought to a standstill within seven days in the 1973 Yom Kippur war.
This as a byline does not look good for the statist paradigm existing since the Treaty of Westphalia and notions of sovereignty we have been accustomed to.
We are living in dangerous times.
A Canadian economist of Lebanese origin estimates as follows:
The current Israeli onslaught on Lebanon has cost, as of the fourth week of July, more than 365 dead, 1,500 wounded and billions of dollars in damage, mostly to the country’s infrastructure and private property. The toll on economic activity is also telling. Lebanon had expected 2006 to be the best year for tourism since 1974, with estimates of 1.8 million tourists spending $2.5 billion. These expectations vanished into thin air, along with the exodus of tens of thousands of vacationers and expatriates, leading to an economic meltdown, and most commercial activity has come to a standstill.
“These ongoing attacks are by any reasonable objective standard disproportionate….”
No thats not right. They are belated.
“….. unnecessary, reprehensible and repugnant…..”
you are getting a lot of things wrong tonight here fella.
“…. because they are also killing scores of innocent Lebanese in the process.”
Yes and the greater part of the blame is with the terrorist states and their proxies. Israel is blameless in this matter except to the extent that they have been negligent and compromising and have let those border problems fester. Its a case of better late then never.
” War crimes on the face of it have been committed by both side…
No you are fucking lying. Don’t lie again. The war crimes are clearly on the terrorist side. I think you should retract that lie. Do it quickly.
Panelbeaterbird,If you had a brain you would be fucking dangerous.What fucking planet do you live on?I thought real right wing dip sticks like you died out, just like the dodo bird.I will take the liberty to re-name you ,you are now the yellow bellied howard sap sucker bird.But serious I know deep down in that right wing muddled mind of yours there is a socialist trying to get out.
The Israelis are dropping leaflets urging the population to flee and then bombing entire suburbs — a classic instance of collective punshment. They are destroying roads, airports, mosques, factories, warehouses and apartment blocks. They have displaced more than 500 000 people and killed over 350, the vast majority of whom were civilians.
I guess people will make up their own mind whether such acts are “unnecessary, reprehensible and repugnant� or not.
Hooray! Thanks, Peter.
a Bird:
No you are fucking lying. Don’t lie again. The war crimes are clearly on the terrorist side. I think you should retract that lie. Do it quickly.
If you say so!
Of course, Israel wouldn’t tell people to fell then kill them when they do, would they?
A classic, Birdy (I hate it when they only play their new stuff…)
One point Ive been meaning to make: the sheer level of racism, and notions of racial superiority that characterise the Israeli rhetoric. Generalised stuff about “mindsets” of entire populations, and actions which speak volumes about racialised state attitudes: no Arab is truly innocent, each culpable and responsible for the actions of others, therefore collective punishment is justified, and their lives are worth less than ours, etc.
Maybe its time for Bono et al not to play Sun City, Tel Aviv. Wouldnt surprise me if this sort of thing is happening within 5-10 years. Genuinely at some risk of becoming the new (old) South Africa. There are many good ISraelis, and I hope they can pull their government out of its apartheid/ disposession/ collective punishment mindset. Advanced societies seek to punish the guilty alone – so much for their anti-Arab civilisationist rhetoric. A nation is no better than its actions.
On a straight military level, its time to conclude its all been a complete, tragic failure. The hezbollah rockets are coming thicker and faster than ever, and no doubt the fresh volunteers are too.
fell = flee, above…
This from http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74202
What’s particularly depressing is that the sheer scale of the brutality could actually soften the world up for a military strike on Iran. Not just in the sense that, if they can get away with what they’re doing in Lebanon, they can get away with anything but also because much of the commentary on the Lebanon crisis has (understandably) focussed largely on civilian casualties.
There’s a liberal argument that runs: ‘It’s terrible what Israel’s doing because the IDF is not hitting the real terrorists.’ In due course, the Israelis — or their American patrons — will turn that to their own advantage by declaring that, rather than fighting civilians in Lebanon, they are going to go after the regime in Iran.
I really feel for the Lebanese… not simply because of Israel’s response but because, even after the so called “Cedar Revolution” they are still chained to actors beyond their control. The so-called war between Israel and Lebanon is a deadly example of the tail wagging the dog. Hezbollah is a sub-state actor, and a single party in the parliament. Yet it has the ability to unilaterally declare war on a neighbouring sovereign state, making the entire nation suffer. If any good is to come of this… Hezbollah must have its claws removed… must disarm and must yield to central authority. Not likely, especially if Syria and Iran continue supporting them…
Israel’s bombing of those TV stations is a classic example of the reprehensible nature of this response. I’m not sure how they could make their reprisals more surgical or with less civilian casualties… but it seems that they aren’t even trying.
Cliff,
I don’t understand how you can look at the devastation of Lebanon and say that Hezbollah must ‘have its claws removed.’ I would have thought Israel — which is, after all, the party responsible for the vast majority of the deaths — made a far more likely candidate for declawing. Where Hezbollah possesses a (relatively) small number of primitive rockets, Israel boasts one of the most advanced armies in the world. Alongside all the gee-whiz murder gadgetry it has been showcasing in recent days, it also stockpiles a large quantity of nuclear bombs, alongside biological and chemical weapons. After what you’ve seen over the last week, do you trust Israel’s finger on the WMD button?
I certainly don’t trust Israel… but I think you’re trying to get me to see things in black and white. Of course Hezbollah’s paramilitary needs to be disarmed… or at least integrated and placed under national control. Syria and Iran’s tentacles need to be removed. Israel’s not going about things the right way, I agree… but how did this start and why? Because a radical sub-state actor in Lebanon, with foreign sponsors, has the power to drag the entire country into a conflict by its own initiative and with its own firepower. Now we are faced with two ultimate solutions to this immediate crisis. Suppress Israel… or suppress Hezbollah. I’m guessing the latter option is more prudent and practical.
Formalisation of conflict between these Lebanon, Israel, Hezbollah and Palestine is only the beginning of a rough and bloddy road to Israel gaining the long overdue recognition of state hood in the Middle-East Region. It is horrible to see such acts of desperation being performed by the state of Israel and it is sad to witness a state attemting to legitimise itself through military action. What we are witnessing is a spectacular breakdown of diplomacy in the region leading to the devestation of two potentially beautiful countries and cities.
Hezbollah is without doubt a dangerous apparatus and needs to be removed so that an attempt at stabalising Lebanese/Israeli relationships can truely be initiated. Hezbollah is the voice that turns the people of Lebanon against its neighbor, it is an evil power hungry organisation that cares not for human life. The problem is that no single entity has an idea on how to remove this organisation with out massive distruction. It appears as if the Israelis are flinging bombs and rockets in the general direction of Hezbollah strongholds and hoping that they kill a few of them. The ratio of innocent civilians killed to combatants is negligable. It would be a terrible shame to see the lives that are being sacrificed every day to be in vane if peace in that region fails to precipitate. What will be left is a growing humanitarian crisis, and a legacy of war and bitterness between these two nations.
“I don’t understand how you can look at the devastation of Lebanon and say that Hezbollah must ‘have its claws removed.’
How does that follow?
And you haven’t seen any devastation of any country of yet even any city. You’ve just seen a few camera angles. A lot of it with Hezbollah guides who won’t let the cameraman hang out too long.
If they were destroying suburbs those shots that we see in the newspapers (usually the same area over and over) would in and of itself mean 10 000 dead.
“Panelbeaterbird,If you had a brain you would be fucking dangerous.What fucking planet do you live on?I thought real right wing dip sticks like you died out, just like the dodo bird.”
We ought not be such naifs and babes in the woods that we get carried away by our journalists with their choice of stories shots and editing.
But then if you are a leftist you would believe what you want to believe anyhow.
How is it that we get those frightening hospital scenes now that Hezbollah and the terrorist states have created AS PART OF A CONCIOUS AND ILLEGAL WAR POLICY but we didn’t get to see such close up pictures of the week in week out carnage that the jihadists cause all over the world.
Well in the end it doesn’t matter. And I wouldn’t want to lean on our journalists. But its just a bit much to see allegedly educated people so easily won over not by argument but by whatever happens to be on the TV that day.
“Where Hezbollah possesses a (relatively) small number of primitive rockets,”
Ummm. They’re hitting Haifa – hardly within “primitive” range of south Lebanon – and they’re supplied by the “hardly short of an armament buck” Iranian government. Hezbollah thrives on the agitprop of dead civilians which is presumably why they deliberately base themselves among them. I wonder how much Hezbollah cares for suffering Lebanon – beyond the immediate propaganda value?
Hezbollah initiated the current round of violence and as much as I deplore the destruction wrought on the Lebanese, what exactly did you imagine that the Israelis might do in response? Get on trains and depart for the east?
The yellow bellied howard sap sucker bird has spoken.This bird is wise he knows all.F.A.
“One point Ive been meaning to make: the sheer level of racism, and notions of racial superiority that characterise the Israeli rhetoric.”
No thats bullshit. You are just lying Lefty.
You’ve swapped the sides around. The fascists are on the other side and you’ve done the leftist reversal.
You might be able to TRAWL about the place and find something that backs up the lie. But its a lie nonetheless.
Panelbeater Bird, you are one sick puppy. Can we have any verification of your claim that:
UMMM…Mr. Bird at the risk of prevoking a blog attack from you, I am not entirely sure where your argument is going. It is not really good enough that you can critisize someone elses valid comments on the bases of “what would you know have never seen a war zone” type of foundation. Is that how you finalise all you arguments? Because it doesnt really hold any water.
I would be very interested to hear how YOU believe Hezbollah should be delt with
Well… this discussion is quickly descending into a fitting analogue of Arab-Israeli conflict.
The lebanese govt is not “still chained to actors beyond their control” they are collaborating and sheltering and sponsoring with Hezbollah. The lebanese are victims of their own govt’s failure to protect them from terrorist gangs. The terrorist gangs control the lebanese govt and the lebanese voted those gangs in.
CNN started this by going in with a Hezbollah guide. And then I just saw an Aussie doing it. Same shot of buildings and rubble. Could well have been the exact same buildings.We ought not presume to know what things are like at this stage you sick FUCK and gullible stooge. The Israelis aren’t able to match that sort of stage managment on the ground.
WPD….. you and the others just do me a favour and ATTEMPT not to be such idiots if thats alright with you shit for brains have a nice day.
Via the brilliant Billmon.
Ralph Peters is strong Israeli supporter, and a typical right-wing hawk, but even he suggests things aren’t exactly peachy.
Bird
I am as pro-Israel as you. israel is within its rights to stamp out Hezbollah IF IT WAS DOING IT SURGICALLY. But you need to get over this delusion that Israel can do no wrong. They have fucked up badly. They are bombing Maronite TV stations. They are making it difficult for their supporters to umm … support them.
Hezbollah might have provided a marketable pretext for the attacks but Israel had been planning them for at least a year.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL&hw=kalman&sn=001&sc=1000
I am not sure if anyone knows a great deal about Katyusha Rockets, but they are hardly a primative weapon. I would say that Hezbollah are using them with resonable effictiveness. The Rockets on question are cheap to make, have a range of around 40-50 miles although not entirerly accurate they have been heralded as one of the most effective short range rockets ever made (if that is at all possible). The reason Hezbollah combatants are hard to track down is because they can quicky mobilise their forces for a rocket attack and pack up and move in a short time. This makes for a very tactical ground force that can do indiscriminate damage to neighboring Israel.
Birdy come back,don’t crack a paddy the other wingnuts on here love you.
Please more of your in depth analysis of the M.E. and the bonking habits of Eskimos.
Dr Zim,
Katyusha rockets are primitive when compared to, say, Jericho ballistic missiles or Shavit satellite launch missiles or whatever the name of the weaponry the US is currently rushing to the front line. And they are certainly primitive next to nuclear bombs which, as is well known, Israel possesses in abundance.
“I am as pro-Israel as you. israel is within its rights to stamp out Hezbollah IF IT WAS DOING IT SURGICALLY.”
How many Lebanese are dead?
Don’t tell me they are not doing it surgically. Because with such low numbers your contention just doesn’t hold water.
From many of the reports I’ve seen, Israel has no idea of the damage it is doing to itself as a nation in regard to the national security it says that it is defending. Do they really think that by doing this that they are securing their future in the long term? People don’t forget that stuff. Not to mention the fact that even though tensions are rising between Shiites and Sunnis, these attacks have the potential to possibly unite them in a common cause against Israel as well. And what of the bombing of Christian suburbs? Surely the “we’re ONLY targeting Hezbollah” defence does not stand up there. I weep for Lebanon tonight – 20 years down the drain in 2 weeks. Punished as a nation and as a people without any mercy. Whether this is a proxy war or not (and many are claiming that it is), the Lebanese people have much to be angry about – and they will be angry at Israel.
400 and counting,what kind of sicko are you really?how many people will it take or not take to make it surgical?There is no contention here the facts are public knowledge.wingnuttery how i hate thee let me count the ways.
“Please more of your in depth analysis of the M.E. and the bonking habits of Eskimos.”
Eskimos are fine in their own habitat. But when they get to Sydney they don’t last long. As the hot weather brings out an unnatural surge of libido. Which leads to death (usually from knife wounds) resultant upon various relationship problems.
Hi Jeff
Yes I agree with you that there are more advanced weapons out there capable of doing more damage that the humble katyusha, however nuclear weapons are not being used every day in the field. and If they where used against Lebanon, Israel would suffer from a Nuclear fall out….bummer. It has been proven in Afganistan that the Level of technogoly used by waring parties is all but redundant in this day of asymetrical warfare. The Afghan insurgants have weapons that are 50 years old, but they do use them to their maximum efficiency.
guys I cant work out if the Bird is angry at the situation in the Middle East or if he just hates the human race in general and we bloggers are his virtual whipping boys.
Let’s lower the temperature and play the “ball” not the person. Points can be made without personal attacks.
Forget the numbers for the moment Bird. Why did they have to bomb Christian TV stations? It suggests they’re not putting much thought into their targetting. And why not give enough time for residents to evacuate?
How many are dead, Birdy?
I suppose 500000 displaced people and national infrastructure torn to shreds is irrelevant.
The repulsive logic of weighing up deaths really has no place in any discussion of morality and justice.
And you’ve never seen this, and worse, in Arab propaganda about the Jews and Israel? You’ll have to pay more attention, Lefty. The Arabs are no better than the Jews at this, but you have been shocked at Israeli rhetoric made while they are at war.
I look forward to your next post which explains that:
a)Arabs would never say that of anyone else, or
b) If they said it they dont mean it, or
c) If they’ve said it then, well, you’ve got to understand their culture (which I understand but which you don’t), or
d) Whatever it was they said it was taken out of context, or
e) They’re only saying it because its in the Quran and it would be deeply offensive, not to say deeply prejudiced, of us to criticise them because of their deeply held reigious beliefs, or
f) The Jews deserve it, or
g) Any and all of the above, as long as I can find a way that ignores the fact that this is another event in an ongoing vicious little war that has been going on for over sixty years between two parties, neither of whom has a monopoly on the right of their cause, but just so that I can find a way to stick it up the Jews, and make myself look good to my fellow apologists for the Palestinians, and now Hezbollah, who, of course, have never ever done, and could never ever do, anything which anyone could reproach.
However I won’t expect, after that last post of yours, anything balanced or considered from you about this sad conflict. You really should change your posting moniker to “A. Bigot”.
Peter’s warning about playing the ball, not the person, should be heeded.
Hear Hear Peter
I think I speak for all of us when I state that nobody gets any where when the level of conversation sinks to petty name calling. I am here for an intelligent discussion that I dont get at my local, so I personally would like to see less of bucket-mouth abuse and perhaps a more dispassionate, intelligent discussion.
Quite honestly,I think panelbeater bird is becoming psychotic.
I think for his own safety, it would be better if his comments were ignored for a while.
Dr Zim and Andrew, it was notable that the earlier thread was much less strident and engaged much more with some of the complex issues and nuances. People can draw their own conclusions as to whether Birdy’s relative absence from that thread provides an explanation.
Not sure if I’ll lower the temperature, but let me state for balance that Hezbollah started this – and all things being equal, they should stop it.
As to the indiscriminate nature of the Israeli attack, I’m not sure. What sort of civilian casuaties should we expect? It seems to me that if Hezbollah builds a command complex under (hypothetically) a shopping centre we could expect many casualties – but I don’t know how many. If Hezbollah occupies the top floor of a hospital, do we expect the Israelis not to attack them?
Let’s have some constructive discussion on how Israel should respond to attacks from its neighbour rather than just blindly supporting murdering fascists.
Lefty E,
On the Apartheid/Sth Africa link here’s something Archbishop Tutu said back in 1989 after visiting Israel
Just to change the topic on to solutions for the conflict. Just How effective Dr. Rice’s council will be in this affair is soon to be unveiled. Does any one else see that while the US must be seen to be acting as the worlds saviour etc. History does suggest however that such attemts at brokering peace deals in the Mid. East has been unsuccessful. perhaps a brief cease fire agreement would be nice just to get innocent civilians out of harms way. But do Terrorist organisations such as Hezbollah really listen to agreements made by its host state or for that matter the US administration? Hezbollah and Syria are in effect not negotiated with in this senario and therefore, they really havent agreed to anything. Maby it is time that the west reconsidered the mantra of “never negotiate with terrorists” considering that Hezbollah has a strong political wing.
Birdy,you are so cutting. I am so well er offended and a vagina ta boot.And heres me thinking you were an intellectual,i am so disappointed.
In fact I saw great things for you, possibley Australian Ambasador to the U.N. specialising in M.E. philosophy,i mean after all you are so culturally sensitive.Have you thought about being an adviser to your mentor John W. Howard? No? Well if you get stuck for employment,there is a cleaners job going at Steves Pub.
Im quite sure you’d find lots of Arabs who would indeed make such racist claims, GregM. What’s your point? That therefore its ok?
You seem to be conceding the substantive point I raised. I look forward to someone contesting my case more effectively (hopefully a large movement of Israeli citizens binning that racist butcher olmert and his barbarian bunch of ’strategists’).
Fair comment Mark, but let’s wait and see what Lefty posts next to see whether my post was unfair (except for the last sentence which I acknowledge was wrong and which I withdraw). I don’t have a particular side to take in this conflict but I get tired of the posts that stick it up one side when the record of the other is no better.
Whatever Lefty has seen of how some Israelis are describing Arabs/Palestinians/Shiite Lebanese let’s be honest enough to recognise that these are two sides that hate each other with a passion and that, whatever the Israelis have said of their enemies, their enemies have said of them and in spades and let us not, as Lefty’s post invites us to do, draw conclusions about the Israelis that we should not also draw about those who have attacked them.
There is wrong enough on both sides for the blame to be shared between them. To point out the wrongs of the one without acknowledging the wrongs of the other is, in my view, partisan and grossly unfair.
I saw one of the commercial TV station’s ME reporter being squired around the rubble of Beirut by Hezbollah (he said), and marvelling at the extent of the damage, and acknowledging that the Hezbollah strategy of firing rockets from densly populated areas was designed to embarass the Israelis when civilians were killed. He went on to say “it seems to be working – these images are being seen the world over” etc etc.
Didn’t seem too shocked that Hezbollah should adopt such a tactic though – almost as if we should expect it from that side of the conflict.
The other interesting thing was that in the next scene he was reporting from another part of Beirut, saying that it was only a couple of kilometres from the destruction we had just witnessed. This makes me think that the attacks must be a little discriminating!
Also, consider that of the thousands of Australians in the area, I don’t think any have been killed. Wouldn’t that be odd if the killing was really indiscriminate?
Yes, Cal, unfortunately is quite an apt analogy. I sometimes get the feeling the uncritical apologists for Israel, for all their moralising high-groundism, will wake up one day and find, with some regret, that they’ve been supporting the Vorwoerd regime.
But go on, have a go at Archbishop Tutu. What would he know about apartheid, hmm?
Here’s a clue: being critical of the actions of the Israeli state doesnt make one anti-Semitic.
Making racist slurs against Jews (or Arabs, who are also a Semitic people) does.
PeterTB,
DFAT has issued a list of missing Australians from that very area they have grave concerns for.
As for your earlier comment
I agree. What should Israel do to stop attacks from its neighbours? By conducting themselves as they have, they are becoming the best recruiting tool for the next generation of jihadists. Has anyone checked to see if Hezbollah’s demands are that outrageous. Are all the people they are asking to be released from Israel’s jails people who have been through a fair trail before incarceration? I have seen enough of this conflict (from afar) to know it is naive to think that acceding to the demands of a terrorist group will lead to everlasting peace, but surely this may cause non extremist arabs to start to distance themselves from their trigger happy brothers. The other side of the coin is that extremist Jews may finish off any Politician who goes too far in compromising with their neighbours, a la Rabin.
Unfortunately its a messy situation that I can’t having a happy ending.
I’ll do my own recruiting thank you Phill.
Furthermore there are no “cleaners jobs going” at my pub. Cleaning staff have all been in their jobs for at least 7 years and are in no danger of being terminated.
The standard you specify: “Can’t make it at anything else so we’ll take you as a cleaner” may be how you would have your house cleaned.
I’m afraid my standards are somewhat higher. Getting a cleaning job from me isn’t easy, isn’t available for the asking and those who manage to get past my screening and into a cleaning job for me tend to not leave it.
Phooey to you. Don’t speak for me.
Never thought I’d say this, but long live the bird. If we could just get you to shake off this divine politico-economic mission of salvation complex, you’d make a fine novelist. Or scriptwriter.
Now, to balance off my probable contribution to thread derailment, and in the spirit of positive solutions, what does everyone make of a possible European peacekeeping force? There’s been a bit of (not particularly focused) discussion over at Catallaxy. The article says they want to deply under a UN security council umbrella.
You can forget the UN, they were there since 1978 as UNIFIL and contributed to the situation-they must have witnessed Hezbollah building up military strength.
I have more faith in a Merkel govt than a Zapatero govt.
And I the opposite Rog. But war and peace forge strange alliances.
The article says ’several European states’ but doesnt specify.
Anyway the notion of a EU peacekeeping force is just more silly Eurovision nonsense unless;
Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria and Iran are party to the deal
Lebanon is given sufficient aid to restore sole military power
Penalties for breach of ceasefire are agreed upon by all parties.
Otherwise it is just another tea party.
Stevo,Stevo,Stevo,your taking a lot for granted who says im talking about your pub?.But for the purpose of the exercise lets say o/k it’s your pub. Um screening now there’s a word that conjurs up the imagination.Steve to a prospective employee-”have you or any members of your family been members of the communist party”.Um Steve again “If you accept the 16 hr days we work around here and the 80 cents an hour, after about seven years we will promote you to head cleaner”.Um Steve I bet your just a regular guy ainch cha a real knock about fella.I reckon you would have high standards.I tell you what, I have a cleaning job you can have.The only problem is it involves a bit of travel, it’s in Beirut. And Steve one more thing Phooey!Phoooeeeyyy!!! Please just tell me to fuck off but Pho oey.You pub must be full of shirt lifters.
“the asymmetric warfare we are witnessing is, in my opinion, the new paradigm of non-state/state warfare of the 21 st century”
Oh look, I beg to differ with the lot of you. This has moved well beyond having to do with a war between Israel and Lebanon and H’boh. People – by which I mean yer actual huming beans – are irrelevant.
What we’re engaged in now is a dialogue. Except that as with various aerial campaigns during Vietnam it’s not a dialogue conducted via diplomacy, it’s one designed to send messages via F-16s (whereas formerly it was B-52s).
Lebanon is confirmation that we’ve retreated from the rickety Bush notion of just going in and kicking bottoms, to a different form of diplomatic engagement. One that uses surrogates and understands global politics.
Tehren is now the substitue for Moscow. And if anyone thinks we’re going to bomb Tehren I’ll quite happily meet you down at Satr Casino with a fistfull of
bombersdollars.Possible or impossible?
I would think there would have to be some very serious tradeoffs to get Syria and Iran in the game. S’pose the aim would be to push Hezbollah back into Syria.
Penalties might also prove troublesome. I suppose it could be seen as a test of whether UN reform efforts are gathering any moment.
All very pomo, but with bombs, eh?
rog, it’s totally irrelevant whether Syria and Iran intend to continue to supply Hezbollah if weapons if (a) the supply routes are interdicted and (b) the peacekeeping force (which is a misnomer) acts as a buffer between Israel and Lebanon, and thereby more or less occupies South Lebanon and disarms or expels Hizbollah fighters.
That’s what’s being discussed, not some fantasy that you’ve dreamed up about “silly Eurovision nonsense”.
And it would have a fair chance of succeeding.
If you’d prefer to see mass civilian deaths and suffering and the destruction of a nation continue, by all means oppose it.
If Condi comes out and supports it next week, then go join observa in his bunker. He’ll lend you appropriate head protection.
The Europeans slaughtered 6 million Jews. I don’t see what business they have getting in the way there. Its hard to imagine European soldiers furiously charging after terrorists. Israels doing a good job of that now. Bringing in outside soldiers is senseless. What disarming of terrorists can they do that Israel isn’t doing right now.
Instead they should be giving the Israelis money every day that they are fighting.
Lebanon are saying NO to a buffer zone but YES to a “package”
Mark, UNIFIL were in Lebanon since 1978 and they were charged under UN resolution with ensuring that Israel withdrew 100% and that the Lebanese military was the sole military power in Lebanon. Obviously under UNIFIL presence Hezbollah built a military infrastructure – that makes the UN a Hezbollah collaborator. A repetition of the same failed corrupted process should not be considered.
It is totally relevant that Iran and Syria stop supplying Hezbollah and that Hezbollah be disarmed, they are not the Lebanese military they are just an armed gang. Hezbollah are dug into towns and villages and they use civilans as their cover, their “human shields”. The Lebanese govt could disarm Hezbollah if they had the political will, assistance has been offered. There are plenty in the West who also support Hezbollah, for reasons not made obvious.
Mark,
It would have a fair chance of succeeding only if the UN force was willing and able to actually disarm and expel Hezbollah. ie not a peacekeeping force, but an intervention force.
In practical terms, the Lebanese themselves would also have to stop supporting Hezbollah otherwise the UN job would be impossible.
Given the past record of the UN and the Lebanese, do you think these outcomes are likely?
For my 2c I don’t think the breakdown of statism in general is necessarily a bad thing at all and I’d even encourage it via forth generation warfare.
Much human hirstory was without states after all.
Also ‘ body counts’ are necessary to measure proportionality that is a large part of sound justice and a well grounded ‘ payback’ game theory based morality.
Something is clearly wrong when the Apartheid Euro-colonialist white supremacist Israelis kill two or three others for every white one of theirs. Maybe body counts are offensive to some who would rather discuss abstract metaphysical problems but they remain a basic tool of political economy in the real world.
Getting away from ‘ nuts-and-bolts’ politics (by other means) for a minute I am sensing a moment of change such as was reached during the Yugoslav wars. That is when the tide of public opinion turned against the Serbs and never swung back.
In spite of all the jingo right wing garbage pumped out by the corporate press the truth is out there on the net and peoples hearts and minds are swinging toward massive humanitarian intervention. This could even include the bombing of ‘ Belgrade’ ( Tel Aviv or similar ) Whoever does it being less important than it gets done and gets the job done. You can’t break an Olmert without cracking a few egg heads together.
Call me a hopeless romantic and optomist but thats how I see this conflict at the moment. The Israelies are the new Bosnian Serbs and everybodies bad guy in the publics mind. Even some of the dim conservative commentariat are twigging to this sea change. The winds of change that decolonized Africa have now belatedly reached the Middle east. If you have any friends in the ten percent of sane Israelies you will help them get out now.
Achieving full compliance with Security Council resolution 1559 should the first objective of any deal.
“Has anyone checked to see if Hezbollah’s demands are that outrageous.”
Cal, Hizbollah in Lebanon is run by a Holocaust denialist for whom Hizbollah’s ultimate objective is to expel the Jews from Israel.
See quotes here.
I think he sees the current war as helpful step along the way.
Birdy there is a large difference between Nazis and Europeans. look it up.
Rob,
Objective is meaningless. no-one but no-one can expel Israeli or more accurately Israelis from the area given they possess 150-200 nukes.
Tell you what, Homer: you tell Nasrallah, and I’ll tell Ahmadinejad of Iran, his principal backer. They both seem to have it powerfully on their minds. Somehow I don’t think either of them would listen, somehow
PeterTB and rog, yes I agree that it would be necessary for any intervention force to take real steps to disarm Hizbollah in order to be effective. It would appear that the Israelis are not hostile to such a proposal if it has teeth.
The problem is how you do that, Mark. The Israelis couldn’t do it in 18 years with a surrogate army doing a lot of the dirty work for them. And Hizbollah has had 6 years of complete freedom to dig itself deep into the Lebanese countryside.
I don’t know, Rob, but conversely the Israeli strategy is clearly not working either, as evidenced by the fact that the firing of missiles into Israeli territory has barely let up, and Israeli generals report that there are still thousands hidden which they will not be able to destroy.
That suggests that a political process would be necessary to enforce disarmament.
You’re quite right, it might not work – but then not a lot ever works in the ME.
Gotta run now.
I think the Israelis are trying the only thing they can. They want to protect their territory and their people, which is the ultimate responsibility of any democratic state. Remember that Israel has been under continual missile attack for two weeks, and it was missile attacks that commenced the current war (under cover of which the soldiers were snitched). No sovereign state can be expected buckle to that. A terrible tragedy that the Lebanese are having to pay, and I admit to sqirming when the Israelis say the Lebanese ought to have de-fanged Hizbollah themselves, when they know quite well the Lebanese government’s writ does not run in the south, where Hizbollah effectively is the government. But there is a logic to their case.
Thye are doing what they can: warning civilians to get out of the way, targeting their strikes as carefully as they can. I’ve no idea why they bombed the Maronite TV stations — hve the IDF commented on that? They are trying to destroy everything of Hizbollah’s they can find: missles, launchers, installations, support networks, infrastructre. But they can’t do it except in incomplete part. They can bomb the highways to Damascus, but what about the dirt roads that can still support ruggedised military vehicles and freight, including missiles? They seem to know that — one IDF commander I saw interviewed said they weren’t trying to destroy Hizbollah, just contain them and push them out of range of Israel.
I suspect their real objective is to do so much damage that if Hizbollah ever entertains the idea of launching a similar operation again, Lebanon will rise up against them and say ‘No way, remember what happened last time?’ And maybe put in a phone call to the local IDF border post with a warning.
It could work. Lebanon is no Gaza.
I’m out and about today and currently at an internet cafe so I don’t have time to find the links, but having read the Fin and the Australian over breakfast, things are moving fast. Condi’s calling for a conditional ceasefire, and the Israelis are warming to the idea of an international intervention force in Southern Lebanon.
I hope that gives some pause for thought to commenters like observa and Birdy, who as usual, will find themselves far to the right of reality.
Rob, you tell us how they will achieve that objective remembering of course that Israel possesses more Nukes, more modern and better weapons than any country or nationalist force in the area.
It is just like the Commos and their nationalisation objective. It always needed a reality check.
Agreed, BBEP. As Kim was saying on the other thread, effectively it’s campaign rhetoric.
I guess my comments in the previous thread have been ignored.
Things to keep in mind, yeah?
Hizballah captured the Israeli soldiers in Lebanon. What was on earth was an Israeli tank squadron doing near or in Lebanon at the time we’ll never know (but I’m sure we can guess).
Please consider what Andrew Cockburn has to say about the “ancient history” of this conflict: eg
Finally, please consider this map of the areas bombed by Israel in this revolting attack on Lebanon, its infrastructure and blameless men, women and children.
Tripoli really must be a hive of eevil Hizballah activity in the fecking North…
Don’t forget Israel created Hizballah by invading Lebanon. The Iranians have nought to do with that, my friends.
With this in mind (ie. facts) let the intelligent discussion continue…
The Zionists and their supporters continue to bomb us with their propaganda about Hezbollah starting the war. Here’s another reminder to bring us back to reality.
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html
And as Juan Cole reports, this war against Lebanon, with all its civilian casualties, was planned over a year ago:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14159.htm
This is the war that Israel wanted and provoked. Too bad about all the civilian deaths and casualties on both sides, eh?
And oh look from the Sydney Morning Herald some information about the Israelis illegal use of custer bombs on civillians to “defang” Hizballah…
Yes, these are atrocities, and no amount of window dressing will erase them from international memory. The fact is plain, as even Rob acknowledges, that the Lebanese government is in no position to take on Hezbollah – so punishing the govt, and worse, unrelated civilians for their failure is simple colossal brutality without excuse or justification. Israel’s leadership must be held to account for these crimes. Their currently diminishing support in the West is the first payoff.
Moreover, lets speak plainly: the last thing Israel would actually want is a Lebanese state sufficiently tooled up that it could take on an organisation like Hezbollah – once again highlighting Israel’s role as a dishonest broker in regional affairs. Their actions are unbelievable in a wider strategic sense: Lebanon finally shakes off 20 years of Pax Syriana, then gets the crap bombed out them 10 mintues later. What does that say to Arab moderates? Join Hezbollah, back Syria – you’re wasting your time?
We’ve argued here about the rise of Hezbollah – whoever you want to blame, it was, facutally, a response to Israeli invasions. And the same with Hamas – Hamas was supported by Israel and the west all throuhg the late 70s early 80s as a counterpoint to Arafat’s PLO. Nice one! Welcome to more blowback.
So many of Israel’s problems are, sadly, of its own creation. The days of 67/73 are over, apologists. Israel is no danger whatsoever of being pushed into the sea. It is, I believe, promoting weak regimes and Arab militancy as it sees an historic opportunity to fully dispossess all the useful bits of the west bank. No other conclusion fits the strategy they have adopted (unless they’re just plain stupid – which I reject as a possible theory).
Note that most Western support now comes exclisively from those influenced by neo-Con ideas. This is becuase Israel’s right wing leadership has preempted so many of these core ideas, viz: all men are not created equal, some cultures are inferior, have forfeited rights, and miltiary victories can hold the day in lieu of actual legitimacy and the application of universal rights (eg self-determination for both sides).
Causation problem solved? Nasrallah interviewed by Al-jazeera:
Rob, the initial attack was of a different order to the Israeli’s firing of rockets into southern villages and into Beirut itself. Israel didn’t just defend itself in the border clash, it went straight into all out attack. The subsequent Hizballah rockets were then part of the vicious cycle, but your characterisation is dishonest.
Support Israel fully if you need to, but don’t try to make out that they had no choices in this. The missile and rocket attacks upon civilian targets were initiated by Tel Aviv. Hizballah know they have screwed up but Israel thinks they are wining something. Israel is more stupid than even Hizballah.
There will never be peace in the Middle East.
Neither side trust each other (rightly). Neither side believes the other should be living in ‘their’ land.
Indeed when one really gets down to it each side denies the humanity of the other.
Meanwhile the carnage goes on in the occupied terrorities, albeit at a slower rate
Do we allow the families of these victims to retaliate against innocent Israeli’s, as the Israeli’s have done? Do we bomb the family home of the Israeli officer who gunned down a 13 year old child on way to school, and detain him without trial, as Israeli’s do on a daily basis to anyone they label a ‘terrorist’?
Of course not. These things are straight out murder and should be condemmed as roundly as any atrocity committed by Hamas/ Hezbollah. Until this hypocrisy is addressed, Israel will never be at peace, nor does it deserve any.
BBEP – in war the two sides always deny the other’s humanity. There is no reason this war will not end like every other war. Afterall it would be pretty amazing if we were seeing the first war in human history that went on forever.
Peace has been quite close at hand a couple of times in the past. More chances will come. Meanwhile there are real injustices that can be addressed. Each time an injustice is resolved, we move one extra step close to peace.
Obviously in the last few years with the Bush regime’s meddling in the region and with the oil shortage driving a lot of hidden agendas, there has probably been no worse time for peace efforts in the ME to bear fruit.
Nevertheless if Israel cease their shelling of Lebanon, a concrete first step is taken. If Hizbullah then agree to release the two prisoners we get further. If Israel agrees to a negotiation on the circumstances and status of the Lebanese prisoners etc etc
It’s not rocket science this stuff intellectually but it is very hard for humans to do emotionally. Especially when Iran and the USA are fighting proxy wars at the expense of those in the middle.
Lebanese editorial:
One thing the paper ignores is Hizbullah solidarity with Palestinians but they are probably right to do so as that is outside the national interest and thus is probably not enough to sustain Hizbullah’s domestic viability long-term.
Cliff
You would do well to be updated: The “Arab”-Israeli conflict morphed into the Islamist-Israeli conflict over a decade ago.
It seems that we are all Israelis now.
Are they SERIOUSLY thinking of brining the UN in??? In that caes every Israeli and Lebanese should run for the hills. Talk about inviting the world’s greatest disaster-maker to the party!
More than campaign rhetoric, I think, Mark. Expulsion of the Jews from Israel and attributing all the woes of the region to Israel’s existence is common currency in trhe Middle East And it is widely shared by supporters in the west. It is an essential plank of Hamas’ constitution. ‘Palestine will be free From the river to the sea’ is a chant commonly heard at demonstrations. It can only mean one thing — destruction of the Jewish state and the return of the Palestinians. Until the Middle East gets used to the idea that Israel is here to say and learns to deal with it, there won’t be, as Homer says, any peace in the Middle East.
Because something is not achievable does not mean it cannot be believed in. Islamic terrorists the world over seek the return of the caliphate and the subjugation of the world to Islam. That’s isn’t going to happen either, but it’s the belief that drives the likes of bin Laden and Abu Barkar Bashir.
Rob, we had this discussion earlier on the other thread.
Well, Egypt have recognised Israel since 1979. The Saudi Foreign Minister avoided criticising both sides in the current conflict when he called for it to end.
There’s that tricky nuance again.
Egypt is probably the best example of my argument — it was willing to trade pece for peace (and the return of the Sinai). Mind you, the US largely bribed them into it. There’s nuance again.
When will Syria and Iran follow, I wonder.
Probably when they roll over and let Shell, BP, Exxon etc take all the oil they want, Rob.
Hizbullah have written a letter to the Guardian.
Some choice quotes (with my emphasis):
Seems to me that Israel has demonstrated with Jordan and Egypt that it is willing to make peace with those of like mind.
No sign of that from Syria or Iran I think
Re Hezbollah Guardian letter
Does anyone think that any of it is believable?
A good model Rob. One we should try to emulate. Why not try returning the Golan Heights to Syria and see if they won’t make peace. Why not return the Lebanese prisoners & the Sheba Farms and see if Lebanon can’t make peace and side-line the more extreme elements of Hizbullah. Why not remove the illegal settlers from Palestinian land and sign up to a two-state solution and see if the Palestinians might be persuaded to vote in a less militant government next time.
You see in every case Israel does the opposite and then wonders why its enemies continue to outnumber its friends in the region.
Religious whackjobs who believe in the caliphate are the stupid minority and are only made in the slighest bit relevant by the implacable policies of Israel and the US who have this stupid machismo idea that the only thing understood in that part of the world is the big stick.
And all the while the continuing crisis just “emboldens” the mullahs in Tehran. (See Zogby on Lateline tonight.) Guess how much moderate voices are getting heard in Iran this week during such regional mayhem.
Hard to argue with that bit, PeterTB. Even if Iran was egging this on, which I have no idea if it is true or not, I believe that Nasrallah would have (sadly) chosen to respond with all out missile attacks anyway, given the (sadly) precipitous Israeli escalation.
Goodness, I didn’t know that Hezbollah was the government of Lebanon. I’d been under the misapprehension that it wasn’t. I had thought that Lebanon’s government was led by Faoud Siniora, a Sunni Muslim, and not a member of Hezbollah.
It speaks volumes about the status of Lebanese sovereignty when some group within it which does not have majority support dictates its policy, and not its government.
“It speaks volumes about the status of Lebanese sovereignty when some group within it which does not have majority support dictates its policy, and not its government.”
Iraq ‘ghan roll?
The Middle East and Central Asia seems to be quite unfuckedupable at this stage, not least because the most ostensibly powerful person in the world can’t pick up the phone and “get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit and it’s over.”
Yes, yes it’s more complicated than that of course but why is the world’s only hyperpower, and one with an oft announced self-defined mission of bringing order to the region, doing nothing but a Pontius Pilate impersonation at the moment? As you may recall, the long term ramifications of that prelate’s poorly timed personal hygiene routine are still ricocheting through the region now.
It’s all pretty bizarre, and would be hilarious in a really dark way if it weren’t tragic. The COW fight a war to bring democracy to Iraq. The democratically elected PM of Iraq goes to London and condemns Israel. Tony Blair says what’s going on is horrible, but refuses to call for a ceasefire. Asked by a reporter if he’s happy for civilians to continue to be killed (which he’s just condemned), he looks embarrassed and flummoxed. Condi turns up in Tel Aviv and says that enduring peace is just around the corner, and this will build a better Middle East. And says “we will prevail”. Meanwhile, in Iraq, a Minister comes on and says there’s no civil war but “sectarian conflict” and announces they’re considering doing ethnic cleansing in Baghdad. And figures are released showing that on average 100 Iraqi civilians a day are dying but the Minister says “everything is under control”. And that’s only one night’s tv news, and not the half of it.
GregM, Hizbollah has two ministers in the Lebanese government, I believe. Soo it’s a party to it, or a pat of it.
As for Hizbollah’s letter, well, if you believe that you’ll believe anything. Perhaps people should be reminded that Israel withdrew from south Lebanon six years ago, and ever since Hizbollah has claimed it as their great victory. So what resistance are they talking about in the current context, and resistant to what?
Recall also that Hizbollah sponsor Syria occupied Lebanon until when — last year, wasn’t it?
Sheesh.
While Blair/Bush look impotently on, the Israeli’s are now turning their sights on other ‘infidels’.
A mistake? It was also a ‘mistake’ the last time they assassinated Iain Hook, a British relief worker inside the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. How about the other 12 UN workers in Jenin who have been murdered by Israeli soldiers over the past few years. Israel (and their apologists) also call these mistakes. The UN would be crazy to trust any overtures from Israel.
“When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend”- William Blake
This is an extremely sane moral analysis of the situation by Maoz at Haaretz.com, to which the supporters of barbarism should pay heed:
Rob:
So what resistance are they talking about in the current context, and resistant to what?
Doubtless their resistance to the Israeli assassins, bombers and invaders.
Recall also that Hizbollah sponsor Syria occupied Lebanon until when — last year, wasn’t it?
That’s right. It probably seemed safe that Israel wouldn’t try attacking Lebanon again.
How many bombs did Syria drop?
Along with the UN, Israel has also been systematically targeting ambulances. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19915049-2703,00.html
Is anyone out there still defending this barbarism? The IDF should now be listed as a terrorist organsation. What precisely is the difference between the IDF and Hezbollah, anyone?
Olmert must face international justice for crimes against humanity, just like Milosevic and Charles Taylor. Israelis need to rid themselves of this war criminal for their own good. The whole line is collapsing now – Israel simply doesnt deserve peace under this racist, apartheid, ethnic-cleansing regime.
Rob is correct to look to Egypt.
Sadat learnt very quickly after 1973 that the US would not let Israel suffer any sort of defeat.
That being the case it made sense to gain a peace treaty.
He was well in front of his countrymen on this.
Jordan came to a similar conclusion.
The only war like behaviour to Israel comes from inside Palestine which is very weak both in resources and skilled soldiers and Hezbollah which are reasonably resourced and highly skilled soldiers as we saw from the capture of the tow Israelis.
Israel has a “quality control” problem:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/07/not_so_smart.html
What these apologists for state sponsored terrorism fail to understand is the underlying racism of their position, which at its core assumes that the life of an Arab is worth less than a westerner, in this case an Israeli. As much as they may deny it, there is no point in avoiding this unpalatable truth, for it underlines the basis of American foriegn policy and the prism through which the MM presents the current crisis to us.
Thus we have Israeli murderers descibed as soldiers and Palestinian or Hizbollah murderers described as terrorists or militants.
I just saw this post by Craig Murray which I thought I’d share with you guys.
a choice quote:
This seems an accurate analysis of the ‘new Middle East’ from Anatole Lieven at opendemocracy.net:
adrian
I am afraid that when I read somebody so unethically and cynically flick the “racism” switch in the way you have, I instantly reach for my revolver. It is always loaded just in case of emergencies such as this.
Cowards all around then Left E? From the item you linked to -
“The UN yesterday stopped short of accusing Hezbollah of using ambulances as transport vehicles. However, it suggested that the cowardly tactic of blending in with civilians had contributed to the terrible toll taken on communities in the south, where most of the 391 Lebanese have been killed.
“Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending … among women and children,” UN humanitarian affairs chief Jan Egeland said.
“I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don’t think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men.”
Bartleby
While I feel for many of the inncoent Palestinian people, as they sow so they should reap. This has gone on far too long. If the Palestinians are not prepared to bite the bullet and accept what they are offered, they need to prepare themsleves for bugger all.
ROFL. What has this Anatole Lieven been smoking? Would that be the god-fearing peaceniks who traing 16 year old mentally handicapped children to strap themselves with TNT, wail “Allah Akba” and blow Pizza Huts to pieces? Or would it be the boy,s parents who then receive a $25,000 reward from the same “leaders?”
Good god, there are so many lefties who have let their dialetical materialism get pack-raped by irrational garbage.
They are being offered bugger all, LQ. Why do you think they flocked to Hamas at the last election. You can kick a dog only so many times before it decides to bite back.
LQ, don’t be afraid to confront the reality, it might do you good.
And what exactly is it you ‘feel’ for the innocent Palestinian people?
And wouldn’t it be great if your trite sow/reap cliche applied equally to all sides. But we couldn’t have that could we because they’re not equal.
cal
Oh cry me a river. They have been offered land ever since the 1930s. They do not want a state. And their paymasters most certainly do not, and never have, wanted anouther Arab/Palestinian state in the region. They want war, martyrdom, and to push the Jews into the sea. I am sick of their whingeing. There are literally hundreds of millions of other people around the globe since WW2 to have experienced dislocation, war, and all sorts of other atrocities who manage to get on with life.
Yes LQ, you could be talking about Israel – the biggest whingers on the planet at the moment, managing the trick of playing the innocent victim and the barbarous aggressor at the same time…
Willing dupes like you are too gullible to see beyond the propaganda.
adrain
Newsflash. it is not Israel that wants a state. It is not Israel that needs the legitimacy. I wonder how many other nation states you attempt to de-legitimise like this? And you have the gall to call other people “racists.” Israel hardly “whinges” mate; it ACTS.
Yeah it acts all right – like a rogue state, like a bunch of terrorists, like a militant wet dream. And I don’t need to do anything to ‘de-legitimise’ Israel, it’s doing a great job itself.
This is an implied threat of violence and should be deleted. Actually, I find the very name Leftist Queers to be sexist and offensive against Leftists. It should be banned.
silkworm, it’s a paraphrase of a very famous quote of Hermann Goering’s. Grow up.
I agree Liam, but out of interest what happened to the red card system. Did the farce with Reg etc put an end to it? Or is it that we are primed to be ‘divers’ after the World cup.
Liam
Aaaarrrggghhhhhhhhhhh….THANK YOU!! I was about to turn said revolver on myself when I read that unfortunate 1970s PC boilersuited mewling.
)
silkworm
But I am dying to watch you perform your “the name Leftist Queers is sexist” routine. Just give me a mo while I grab some popcorn.
Ease up Silky – LQ is big enough to make an ass of himself solo.
And Faichai, above: yeah, maybe they’re using some kindergartens as shelter too. Why not blow them up to be sure?
If the answer isnt obvious, then we’re working from premises too dissimilar for further meaningful interaction.
No mention of kindergartens but the comments from Jan Egeland are very depressing.
Both sides are guilty of terrible deeds and both sides have politicians who have failed their people.
Ah, very true. And Faichai, I dont think I apologised for being so short with you on the other thread a few weeks back. I was under the impression you were someone else.
Here’s a conspiracy theory: Israel deliberately bombed the UN post (see tonight’s news: no newswire link yet) because it wanted less scrutiny, and NATO installed instead.
Laughable? Implausible?
Here’s another conspiracy theory. The neo-cons want this to continue just long enough to see if suitcase nukes are an urban myth. Israel is being played along just like any other ME country.
Keep ‘em coming, Smiley. I love a wild conspiracy theory. It’ll certainly rattle some cages.
Honestly, though – how did they manage to hit a UN post, which is a completely separate enclosure to other facilities in the area, and has “UN” written all over it.
Two alternatives:
1. It was an intentional scrutiny discouragement (or NATO promotion) exercise; or
2. The idea of “surgical” strikes was, and is, complete nonsense – strictly for consumption by gullible foreigners. What we have had throughout is essentially random bombing by Israel on loose intelligence, and even looser targetting.
Pretty much has to be one or the other.
Here’s one: the damage to the Hizbollah-controlled areas of Beirut is in fact caused by Hizbollah itself, detonating its own munitions and missiles in an attempt to portray Israel as the bad guy. They then give selected journalists carefully controlled and guided tours of the devastation, pointing out what they claim to be damage done to the civilian infrastructure by israel, alllowing no independent verification.
(That last bit at least is true, witnessed by this account from CNN’sAnderson Cooper:
Food for thought.)
Oh, and the images of israeli jets are really Hizbollah generated holograms.
And a totally wild one for Lefty E: it was a mistake, committed in circumstances which are presently not known, but which will be subject of a thorough investigation by the IDF, the results of which will be fully shared with Annan.
Going off, Rob!
This is entirely plausible, Rob, and not unprecedented. But there’s a major problem: I think Israel has admitted responsibility. How do you account for that?
The ‘totally wild’ was my poor attempt at sarcasm, weathergirl.
It was an error, and as you say Israel has already admitted as much, and promised a full enquiry.
I know. I got it.
A ‘mistake’ would be covered by alternative #2, Rob.
Check out this map, Lefty E. Damage done by Israeli airstrikes is shown by the grey blobs. Looks pretty discriminate to me.
Ok, so theory #1 looks better to you, Rob? Im confused as to which way you’re going…
Where on the map is the UN post?
I’m going for error, Lefty E. The IDF does make mistakes, and sometimes the victims are the IDF themselves.
Oh, they’ve promised an enquiry!
If Hizbollah had lobbed a katyusha on the UN post imagine the outrage then.
Imagine Hizbolah trying to fob off the world’s condemnation by promising to set up an enquiry.
The Israeli PR man didn’t seem to keen, however, on an enquiry into the Red Cross ambulance turkey shoot. In fact he pretended to not have even having heard of it.
The Israelis are really fucking up here. They are fighting Nisrallah who cares not much about casualties on either side- because it’s all a glorious struggle to him – and yet the Israelis are coming off worse in the eyes of the world.
I agree. Major PR blunder.
I note UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan also thinks the killings were deliberate.
Yes, Rob doesnt seem to get that his “error” theory is much the same as alternative #2: ’surgical’ strikes aint that surgical. Which should come as absolutely no surprise, since thats precisely what the UK foreign minister said two days ago – and he was actually in Beirut, not downloading maps.
wbb, at a time of war when emotions run very high and the ‘invincibility’ if the Israeli soldiery is a key morale fractor, the IDF is still prepared to admit that it was its own high-tech rocket weaponry that took out their very own Apache helicopter and killed two of its own pilots. Under the circs, I think we can have some confidence in the foreshadowed inquiry into the attack on the UN post.
As for the ambulances, it’s been well known for years that Hizbollah uses them to transport personnel and munitions. I’m assuming after Faichai’s link on 26 July 2006 at 4:09 pm there’s no longer a question but what Hizbollah consciously and deliberately conceal their operatives and munitions among the civilian infrastructure, making civilian casualties inevitable — which some of us have been arguing for days now?
True, LE, the “error” theory contradicts the map theory.
Spare my days. Th IDF, before it targets a Hizbollah target that has been deliberately located in civilian areas — whether in a Beirut suburb or a southern village — drops leaflets telling the locals what’s going to happen and gives them time to get themselves out of the way. Very nice for humantiarian reasons, but not for military reasons. Because, of course, it tells their targets (i.e. the Hizbollah bad guys) what’s coming as well. So they either decamp, or take refuge in their underground bunkers and tunnels. If the Israelis were anywhere near as bastardly as you guys suppose, they would simply launch the attacks unannounced with a far better chance of achieving their tactical objectives.
More from our CNN guy (a channel regarded by the right in the US as overly friendly to Hizbah):
You know, its a funny coincidence, but the IDF made exactly the same “mistake” last time, in 1996.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling
If anyone was wondering why Annan called it intentional so quickly today, its becuase the IDF has form. 100 civilians were killed in that episode, shelering in the UN base. Four UNIFIL soldiers were seriously wounded.
A UN miltary investigation councluded in 1996 that “While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors.”
Amnesty went further, concluding, “the IDF intentionally attacked the UN compound, although the motives for doing so remain unclear. The IDF have failed to substantiate their claim that the attack was a mistake. Even if they were to do so they would still bear responsibility for killing so many civilians by taking the risk to launch an attack so close to the UN compound.”
You’re deflecting attention from the here and now, Lefty.
All the difficulties you ennumerate, Rob, that makes it so difficult for Israel to avoid slaughtering innocent people and their children, are the very reasons that lead me to condemn Israel for escalating this thing into a war where all these things inevitably come to pass. Your and Israel’s belief in the viability of military solutions is the root problem here.
Surprise is the ultimate military advantage. Yet the IDF has adopted a policy of sacrificing it to allow civilians to escape, at great cost to their own operational objectives. And little credit they get for doing it.
Those apologies are getting thinner, Rob. You dont think previous behaviour, in the same situation, is relevant?
You have a point, wbb. Launching a war against Hizbollah would always inevitably result in civilian casualties, given Hizbollah’s modus operandi. However, as I said on the other thread, Israel has another imperative — to protect the people of its northern towns — and those further south — from Hizbollah attacks, which they are subjected to every day and which are taking an ever-rising toll in deaths and injuries. What is the IDF supposed to do, if it does not take out Hizbollah installations and facilities in defence of its own people?
Lefty, no I don’t. What we’re dealing with is the situation today.
Rob, if you read Haaretz and other commentary from the Israeli centre and left (I posted a link on the earlier thread), a lot of commentators are basically saying – Sharon and his predecessors (including the last Labour PM, Barak) were generals. Olmert and Peretz are not, and their mandate from the election with the lowest turnout ever and an underwhelming vote for both parties is weak. The IDF are almost at the point of escaping civilian control, but leaders like Sharon were respected enough to rein them in, but now they’re totally dictating the agenda (revenge for deaths and abductions of soldiers) and doing whatever they think is “necessary” – ie not distinguishing between targetting Hizbollah and destroying Lebanon and killing tons of civilians and the Cabinet is caught in their wake.
I presume that columnists in Israeli newspapers have a better idea of what’s going on than we do from this distance, and it sounds plausible.
Interesting Mark – makes sense. There’s certainly a vendetta element to the IDF action, which apparently makes it indifferent to the transparent political disaster the whole thing has become, and even clear military shortcomings. Military, its basically a failure – people in Northern Israel have never been less safe from Hezbollah rockets, and even by IDF figures Hezbollah has lost some 30 odd foot soldiers. And probably recruited 300.
Net effect: Israel less safe, one destroyed moderate Arba nieghbour, 300 plus civilians dead, Maronites offside for first time ever, UN critical, world opinion at all time low.
You know, Rob, in this case, defending Israel might require condemning this war.
Seriously.
Mark, Haaretz is host to a broad diversity of views from the hawkish to the dovish. It reflects the diversity of opinion in Israel as a whole, and is a very good rad, IMHO.
I have a different take on the leadership issue. As you say, Olmert and Peretz are not military leaders. They see things as politicains, not generals. For this reason, Olmert hesitated for days before going into Gaza, hoping diplomacy would save the day. Apparently the IDF were infuriated with the delay, which probably killed their chances of getting Gilat back by military force.
In my view, Rabin, Sharon or Barak would have used the mailed fist without any hesitation whatsoever.
Nasrallah was watching this, and figured the non-military leaders of Israel to be weak, and amenable to negotiation, afraid of another military confrontation, and without the stomach for war. He took his chance. Well, he was wrong.
Interesting commentary about Hizbollah’s surprise at Egyptian blogger The Big Pharoah.
I totally endorse that last bit, Lefty E, and want to highlight it.
I am 100% in favour of Israel’s right to exist. I am 100% against what’s going on now. And I think those who would like to see a just solution do everyone a disservice by partisan cheering of one side or the other. But what is going on should be named as what it is.
Who was it who said “war is too serious a game to be left in the hands of Generals”?
I’m thinking Bismarck, but I might be way off base.
Clemenceau.
Thanks, not quite the same era, but probably within his living memory of the Franco-Prussian War. It’s a very sound point.
I don’t know, Rob, I think they wouldn’t have had to respond so aggressively. I think there’s a good argument that the IDF are out of control, again made not by me, but in the pages of Haaretz. I’m just about to go to bed and I’m too tired to find the links, but it was only a few days ago, and a read of all the recent op/eds in Haaretz would be a good move for anyone interested in what’s being written about this situation in Israel. In the process, I’m sure you’ll come across the columns I’m referring to.
Here’s the link to the op/ed pages:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/LiArt.jhtml?contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0
I just went there to get the link, and found this interesting column by chance:
That reinforces what commentators in Israel have been saying for a few days.
Worth reading the whole column:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742763.html
Here’s how it ends:
Worth pointing out that Olmert’s deputy PM is Labor’s Shimon Peres, who has been there, done that, in every scenario the ME has seen for the last 50 years. And he’s solidly on-side with what the Israeli government is currently doing.
In Haaretz you can find as many pro-government action op/eds as anti.
Personal view: the terrorists were scared of Sharon, but not of Olmert. I suspect the IDF commanders may have pushed that button, so to that extent you may be right, Mark.
Here’s Zbigniew Brzezinski’s analysis:
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001559.php
(Thanks to Jeff for this link)
That’s not the point, Rob. The point is whether the analysis is right.
Yes, and the bombing of the UN position is chillingly consistent with an out of control IDF. How many times did that UN military guy warn the IDF of the danger: heaps.
IDF reaction, let’s see if we can intimidate those other monkeys as well?
Debates about Israel remind me of debates about the Soviet Union, images of the Holocaust and the romance of Zionism dominate the view just as the horrors of imperialist war and then the storming of the Winter Palace did for Communism. We could even distinguish between the diehard Israel loyalists and the anxious fellow-travellers, just as we could for Communism. But history provides few direct lessons, whether or not indigenous self-determination is a good idea cannot be deduced from the Myall Creek massacre, Munich 1938 sheds little light on whether Iraq should have been invaded. Zionism like Communism was a 19th century doctrine, the future they promised was actually a return to the past: settler-state colonialism for Israel and an archaic tributary state in the USSR. White Australiasn finished the job of clearing the land Israelis to their cost were too squeamish. The crusader states lasted 200 years and fell, Christian Lebanon is past, Northern Ireland will eventually have a Catholic majority. If the Arab states did follow the neo-conservative dream and become functional affluent democracies how long would Israel survive? A dream proposal: a constituent assembly elected by all the population of Israel, West Bank and Gaza to determine on a new territorial division and the resultant two states to join the European Union.
Mistakes?? Depends on who’s report you want to believe
As I said earlier, if this was a ‘terrorist’ action against Israel, not only would the suspects be jailed without trial but the family home would be bombed, killing any people unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity.
that quote as made by a very frustrated Lloyd George
weathergirl
I am heartened with your concern for the UN. On its positioning on Israeli maps, perhaps it is located near the same spot where the UN lifted a finger to implement UNSC Resolution 1559. You know, the very UN action whose inaction has triggered this event over which you are so sincerely concerned?
I have not been on this blog very long, but I am sure if I search back through the archives I will come across why, literally DOZENS of posts demanding the UN implement 1559, non?
Geoff R
I love everything you said there about history; especially the all-too-true/hobest – yet forbidden for modern pc tastes to savour – comment about the ill-advised squeamishness of the Israelis. The only problem with this analysis is that Israel was less squeamish than reigned in by the Soviets and the U.S.
Your last sentence should be deleted. When I hear hymns to the EU and geo-ecuminical “binational and secular” states, I reach for my revolver. And should such folly ever seriously be put on the table a revolver would be the very least of our troubles.
The fear that underpins the denial of too much of the western left when it comes to the reality of Islamofascism is almost as frightening as the Islamofascists themselves.
Hymns to colonial genocide, no less! Honesty should indeed be encouraged!
so we have the excuse for the killing of UN observers that the Israelis were warned of 10 times.
It was their fault. sounds like sosmthing Hezbollah would advocate!
“I reach for my revolver”
Lot of revolver reaching lately I notice LQ, how about reaching for a nice well developed argument instead?
Mark
Having read your posts here on Israel and the middle east, I can not for the life of me see a scintilla of evidence that you support 100% Israel’s right to exist. Now, I am not, for one second, suggesting you are one of the hateful antisemitic nutters over in Loewenstein land. But the forces that exist against Israel’s existence are intricate and significant. How do you reconcile this:
Having read the second half of this thread, I am heartened to see that a few people are actually starting to think STRATEGICALLY and see the complex geopolitical iterations playing out.
Maddingly, far too many, especially on the Left, instrumentalise the middle east for the purpose of playing Cold War games of Israel (as client of big bad imperialist capitalist U.S. BOO) vs. Palestnians (or whatever Arab Soviet colonial state is relevant) HURRAH!
Now for MY geopolitical conspiracy theory? The U.S. put the IDF up to knock off the U.N. workers to quash any role of the U.N. in a solution to this problem. Home run to John Bolton’s thus far very successful ambition to knock the U.N. out of the theatre of geopolitics for good. In fact, Brendan Nelson has just pulled four Australian UN peacekeepers out of southern Lebanon.
link
This aim is not bad in itself. The U.N. has morphed into an unwieldly toothless tiger beholden to a million grudges and petty gripes that never acts according to any universal principles, and certainly has no relation to “law” despite the never-ending screeching of “violation of international law” by faceless and unaccountable university and UN harpies.
A new global body with restricted membership is sorely needed. However, if the strategy to achieve it is to knock off U.N. observers and peacekeepers, they will not be getting my vote. Oops, that’s right I don’t get to vote on the decisions of the U.N., do I?
Shorter LQ:
Israel has a right to exist.
Anything Israel does to protect this ‘right’ is OK.
Only a fool could not see where this ‘argument’ leads. A fool with a revolver.
adrian
That position is just as vapid as the one advanced by Mark. Please. The challenge for you and your ilk is to show some good faith in telling us what you actually think IS OK for Israel to protect its right. And to that end what YOUR resposnibility is.
Who is denying Israel the right to exist?
Israel had two soldiers captured, apparently with some skill, in Lebanon.
how in heaven’s name does this even go near Israel’s right to exist
Bring Back EP
Ask Mark. He introduced it, as do so many Leftists of the “I am not antisemitic, I am anti-Zionist” cloth whenever the middle east is mentioned. Something about Freud and women’s undergarments, I believe.
LQ – being an anti-Zionist means you don’t accept Israel’s right to exist, since Zionism is the movement and the ideology which led to the establishment of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
Homer – Hizbollah is committed to driving the Jews out of Israel, and has said so on numerous occasions.
Rob
Amen to that my brother. And as Zionism WAS a movement to deal with antisemitism…well you do the math!
Rob,
I thought LE was directing that thought to commenters on this thread.
Hezbollah might deny it but it can’t do anything about it.
adrian:
Shorter LQ:
Israel has a right to exist.
Anything Israel does to protect this ‘right’ is OK.
adrian you forgot to summarise this creepy utterance from from the “leftist” queers:
A new global body with restricted membership is sorely needed.
ie. all hail the red white and blue!
washington uber alles!
etc.
Phew I’m glad we all are “just srtarting” to understand the geopolitical situation…
LQ, we know the geopolitical situation all too well. That’s why most us here are Marxists.. capiche?
If being anti-Zionist means being against the state of Israel then I plead guilty!
If being anti-Zionist means being for a country in which Jews and Palestinians and their neighbours can co-exist in peace then I plead guilty.
If being anti-Zionist means being against the ancient undead hand of imperialism then I plead guilty.
And if you death worshipperers, erm beasts, want to be more convincing please stop trying to reduce this dispute to if you’re not with Israel then you’re with Hizbullah or some other false dichotomy.
apologies to all for the egregious typos above…
At uni
You need to hit the books and re-read Marx. In my translations, there is little sympathy for islamofascism. You should be ashamed of your repellant calls for Israel’s destruction. Some marxist!
LQ – it would be nice if you could argue without distorting people’s positions.
I did not say that I was anti-Zionist. What I said was that to criticise the actions of the current Israeli government and military is not antisemitic. Israel is a democracy after all, and citizens there have every right to criticise, and so do we.
I do think the elision of stances on Zionism (some Jews are anti-Zionist) and antisemitism is unhelpful in the extreme, and you’re proving my point by using it as a slur against people regardless of its applicability. If you can’t work out that it’s possible to hold a nuanced position on complex issues, that’s your problem, but it’s a waste of everyone else’s time arguing with you if your only contribution is reduction of everything to simplistic dichotomies and partisan name calling.
I endorsed Leinad’s suggestion on the earlier thread as to what a proportionate and appropriate response to Hezbollah by Israel will look like. I’ll leave you to go back and find the comment, as seemingly unlike you, I don’t have endless time to comment on blogs and have work to do.
At uni – I very much doubt many people on this thread are Marxists. I suspect the majority are social democrats or Greens like the bloggers on this site.
What I don’t understand about this ‘right to exist’ mantra, is the inherent asumption that this right only applies to certain countries, but not others.
It is basically as meaningless as many other oft repeated mantras that I’ll not bore you with.
Gee I don’t think he mentions Islamofascism either… Where did you read that the uni of Fox News?
A state is a an abstract entity representing “a set of institutions that possess the authority to make the rules that govern the people in one or more societies, having internal and external sovereignty over a definite territory.”
Therefore, what Israel is doing now is destroying the “state” of Lebanon. It is doing so in a repellent violent manner (diplomacy would be preferable – less people die that way, you know)
Why should I be ashamed of calling for a re-arrangement of the Isaeli state, its institutuions and guiding principles such that they are no longer belligerent, racist, or genocidal?
Answers on the back of a postage stamp.
Jonathan Cook at jkcook.net:
At uni – I very much doubt many people on this thread are Marxists. I suspect the majority are social democrats or Greens like the bloggers on this site.
So what are you trying to say, Mark? That these movements take no heed from Marx’s critique of capitlaism and why wars happen (ie. imperialsim)? I’d say that social democrats and greens, if they are to have any relevance in this capitalist world are to some extent or another Marxists, right?
Israel is taking offence at this cartoon in the Norwegian paper Dagbladet:
http://www.vl.no/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060711/ARTIKLER/60711005&SearchID=73251267937942
From the bbc.uk.co/
At uni — I suspect you are confusing Marxism with Marxism-Leninism, its bastard offspring.
Rob you are confusing a noun as an adjective but you are coreect in your intent.
An insight into why Israel is deploying ground forces in southern Lebanon is here
Worth noting this part:
“A high-ranking source in the Northern Command told The Jerusalem Post Wednesday that Bint Jbail could not be attacked by air since there were still several hundred civilians there. The officer said that the fighting in the town would continue at least for a day or two.”
Worth noting too that the IDF lost nine soldiers killed in a Hizbollah ambush as a result of their decision not to attack from the air.
I heard on Prime News (NZ) on the Sky News channel – at least I thought I heard – that an Australian in the Israeli army was killed today. Anyone heard any mention of this?
Aaah, it’s all over the interwebs.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1698821.htm
At uni, I certainly take elements of Marxist theory and critique into my analysis, as do lots and lots of people. But I thought you meant, as Rob clarifies, that we were Marxists in the political sense.
A soldier in the Israeli Army who has dual Australian and Israeli citizen citizenship has been killed in Lebanon.
There may be other Australian citizens in the Israeli Army.
My question concerns the liabilty of these persons under the CRIMES (FOREIGN INCURSIONS AND RECRUITMENT) ACT 1978
SECT 6
Incursions into foreign States with intention of engaging in hostile activities
(1) A person shall not:
(a) enter a foreign State with intent to engage in a hostile activity in that foreign State; or
(b) engage in a hostile activity in a foreign State.
Penalty: Imprisonment for 20 years.
(2) A person shall not be taken to have committed an offence against this section unless:
(a) at the time of the doing of the act that is alleged to constitute the offence, the person:
(i) was an Australian citizen; or
(ii) not being an Australian citizen, was ordinarily resident in Australia; or
(b) the person was present in Australia at any time before the doing of that act and, at any time when the person was so present, his or her presence was for a purpose connected with that act, or for purposes that included such a purpose.
Surely this is sufficient reason for Australia to declare war on Hizbollah!
So when will we read a fresh column by Akerman Pier questioning the loyalty of these dual-citizenship Israeli-Australians?
Ha! Indeed. Or Bolty, or Alan Jones.
Jason Soon
Perhaps when it is shown that Hezbollah is an ally of Australia whereas Israel is not? Perhaps when Australia’s Jewish community shows the degree of ambivalence, nay anatagonism, that many Lebanese have.
Katz, that legislation is directed against mercenaries.
Ok, this thread, having gone over 200 comments, is starting to be quite slow to load, so I’ll close off comments here and put up another one.
Go here:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/07/27/more-debate-on-lebanon/