Since Peter’s second thread has reached 200 + comments and is therefore taking time to load, here’s another chance to continue the conversation.
One discussion starter might be the hypothesis being advanced by commentators in the Israeli Press that this war is a result of Olmert’s and Peretz’ political weakness and that its agenda and implementation are being driven by the military rather than the government.
As Uzi Benamin writes:
…two weeks into the war, it is coming across as a runaway train over which the government’s control is growing increasingly tenuous.
The decision to send large ground forces into southern Lebanon and to assign them targets further and further from the border is looking more of a derivative of the military dynamic than the outcome of any well-thought-out political consideration.
If that is the case, of course, it makes any political solution that may be on the horizon that much harder to achieve.
People might also like to discuss the situation in the Gaza, which is receiving little media attention now.
Just going back to the legality of serving in a foreign army. Katz asked about the liability of Australians serving in the IDF under Section 6 of the Crimes (Foreign Incursions and Recruitment) Act 1978 (Cth). He should have continued reading to this subsection, which I think answers his question:
Thanks Mark.
Condi seems to be suffering some delusions in the light of what can be described as a faltering Israeli campaign and resistance that is in some respects kicking a lot of Israeli butt. It may turn out that Israel wants a ceasefire before Hezbollah wants one. The longer this goes on the way it is unfolding so far, the greater will be Hezbollah’s psychological victory with increasing moral support from the Sunni regimes masses (and converse dangers for their leaderships) and the less likely any organisation NATO/UN etc will want to try to do what Israel has failed to do ie disarm Hezbollah.
(Message to Condi: Whatever made you think Hezbollah, a political and military entity could be destroyed?)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1830911,00.html
\
Re the battle of Bint Jbeil, contrary to earlier reports of Israeli control Fisk reports as follows:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14223.htm
And I thought birth pangs had nothing to do with killing babies.
Robert, yeah, I made the point on the other thread that the act is directed against mercenaries.
For Peter’s benefit, it might be worth repeating a quote from the previous thread:
“A high-ranking source in the Northern Command told The Jerusalem Post Wednesday that Bint Jbail could not be attacked by air since there were still several hundred civilians there. The officer said that the fighting in the town would continue at least for a day or two.�
In other words, the IDF chose the more dangerous way to pacify Bint Jbeil precisely to spare the lives of civilians at the cost of those of its own soldiers.
Thanks guys.
Silly old me.
But what would the status of David Hicks be, given that the Australian Govt didn’t recognise the Taliban regime in Afghanistan?
I believe Ruddock claims that Hicks is beyond Australian law.
How is Hicks not liable under the Foreign Incursions Act?
Katz, I think because Hicks was not operating against his ‘host’ country.
If that were so Rob, (ha ha spare the lives of civilians, tell us another one) can you tell us how dropping bombs kills soldiers hidden in bunkers, which Hez undoubtedly has dug, reinforced, camoflaged and supplied all over the place?
(Oh, I know, you write “Ali Hezbollah c/- Bunker No 101, 6 Foot Underground, Bint Jbail”, [no return address please] on the smart bomb.)
Katz:
What a naughty question ….mind you, it’s the one I asked too way back when the Australian government first did legal circus-tricks to block the return of Hicks and Habibi to face justice in Australia. The line I took at the time was that IF they were G-d m-f terrorists then they were OUR G-d m-f terrorists and we are perfectly capable of dealing with them ourselves.
Now Katz, try finding an answer to your own question ….. then let’s know here what little surprises you bump into ….
Hmm.
But presumably the Australian government recognised a particular regime as legitimate in Afghanistan. Had the Australian government withdrawn recognition of some prior Afghan regime?
If such recognition had not been withdrawn, then the Taliban were an insurgency against that “host” government.
And thus Hicks may be deemed to have committed an incursion against the sovereignty of Afghanistan.
Much easier, and tactically more sensible, to attack the entrenchments with deep penetrating munitions and kill anyone coming out of their foxholes from gunships. Don’t be more of an ass than you can help, Peter.
Oh brilliant Rob, when you don’t know where the bunkers/foxholes/whatever are, use cluster bombs indiscriminately over the whole area for a one in a 1000 chance. God help any soldiers following your sorry ass in battle.
Remember Vietnam, remember the underground facilities, the pop holes, the camoflage?
Much easier, and tactically more sensible, to attack the entrenchments with deep penetrating munitions and kill anyone coming out of their foxholes from gunships.
It’s a pity the IDF didn’t take your advice, Rob, before they decided to bomb the crap out of innocent civilians Beirut and any other populated city in Lebanon, isn’t it?
It is only a small village, not hundreds of miles of jungle. The civilians had been leafleted to get out. In the logic of war, the IDF’s objective should have been to complete their operational assignment in the most effective way possible, preserving their own lives, and taking those of the enemy. C’est la guerre.
However, I’m as much of a soldier as you are a lawyer, so I’ll cease pontificating on the rights and wrongs of the IDF’s tactics in this case.
Dunno, Katz, it gets too complicated for me round about there. Maybe Peter can help, with his awesome legal credentials.
Goofy-goofy Peretz and Olmert have only themselves to blame for this clusterfuck. The IDF dumped this plan on their desk as a fait accompli and they signed up without looking at the logic.
Airpower, as a brief look at 20th century history should instruct anyone only goes so far even against ‘conventional’ armed forces and state infrastructure. Against a well-prepared, well-equipped guerilla army like Hez it’s useless. Anyone who advised them that a few weeks of bombardment and border raids would be enough to significantly ‘dismantle/degrade/attrit/neutralise/weasel-word-for-slaughter of the hour’ needs their head checked.
Now, having dived into this huge nest of barbed-wire, they can’t pull out without looking like bloody fools while Hez has every interest in keeping them ensnared as long as possible. Israel has foolishly destroyed a country’s infrastructure in the hope that it would make them allies, and now has no new friends, no gains and many more enemies than when they started. Their international allies, the US and the UK have shot whatever credibility they had left by dint of dithering and sheer callousness.
We’re all losers in this bloody farce.
Yeah right, with 200,000 inhabitants.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/24/D8J2EARO7.html
Just to clarify the situation with regard to the legal sovereignty in Afghanistan – the regime of Burhanuddin Rabbani was recognised by all countries bar three as Afghanistan’s legal government until he formally transferred power to Karzai in December 2001 and Karzai’s interim authority was recognised by the UN Security Council.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burhanuddin_Rabbani
Where are they supposed to go and how are they to get out when almost all the roads and bridges leading from Southern Lebanon have been bombed? The leaflet thing is a cruel deception.
Trucks are often bombed anyway. They don’t stop to ask if it’s carrying missiles or refugees, but blow up first and don’t bother to ask questions later.
Therefore the following does not apply to David Hicks:
Therefore, given that David Hicks was captured while bearing arms for the Taliban, which was an insurgency against the sovereignty of Afghanistan, he may have a case to answer under Sect. 6 of the Crimes (Foreign Incursions and Recruitment) Act 1978 (Cth).
I’m sure Mr Ruddock will be eager to follow up on this one.
Interesting to observe that for some, war and loss of civilian life provides just another chance for bashing “elites” and bemoaning “the West’s moral breakdown”:
http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1292
Unsurprisingly the link comes from Rafe, whose post is all assertion and no argument:
http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=1949
Pietro, the population of the entire caza (canton) is around 58,000.
I’m not able to comment at Catallaxy anymore but if I could I’d agree with Jason:
“Frankly I’m just sick of this whole business and don’t even want to think about it anymore.”
Disinformation/Propaganda:
Military madness:
I think there must be an Israeli internet trojan/bot around that comes to life whenever “terrorist” and “Israel” is mentioned. Must be that new version “Robot”
Good one, Peter.
From Antony Loewenstein’s blog – a good piece on the leadup to the war in Lebanon.
http://www.merip.org/mero/mero072506.html
Leinad:
It’s even worse than that. This whole blunder may get the United States and Israel kicked out of the United Nations. ((What do you mean, where will the UN go? There are at least 3 places on Planet Earth that would be happy to give UN HQ et al a new home)).
There is a place for the use or threatened use of massive military force …. but this was definitely NOT one of them. Too late now. Even if the IDF kills every member of Hizbollah, they have unintentionally sown dragons-teeth and ensured the ultimate annihilation of Israel. All Australia can do now is to decide if we can take in any survivors and, if so, how many.
Katz:
that’s not a bad start; as I said, the Australian govt’s legal circus-tricks …. it gets worse …….
Thanks for the heads-up Graham.
I did a quick Google and discovered that you, among others, have already travelled down this path.
Has anyone in authority pronounced on this precise issue?
I’d be fascinated to know.
Uh Rob, why can’t you comment on Catallaxy anymore?
Get this error message.
Forbidden
You don’t have permission to access /cgi-sys/php-fastcgi/wp-comments-post.php on this server.
You may need to create an index.html page or enable the directory browsing by creating an .htaccess file containing “Options Indexes”.
Additionally, a 500 Internal Server Error error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Just reported on Lateline – the US have nixed a security council resolution condemning deliberate attacks on UN personnel. WTF?
Graham,
I’ve partially answered my own question. Here is an extract from an interview between Ruock and Karl Stefanovic
TODAY SHOW CHANNEL 9
THURSDAY 4 AUGUST 2005
http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/MinisterRuddockHome.nsf/Page/Interview_Transcripts_2005_Transcripts_4_August_2005_-_Transcript_-_Today_Show_Interview
The bolded bits would appear to be quite dubious.
To return to the original question: there is nothing new about asymmetrical war. It has being going on since the Spanish Resistance to Napoleon in 1808 where the term guerilla was invented. The whole of the post world war two world was composed of the cold war, on the one hand, and a host of partisan/guerilla wars (does anyone remember Vietnam and the bombing and invasion of Cambodia?), on the other hand.
The fact is Hizbollah is a partisan movement and like all guerillas move through the people like a fish through the sea, as Mao put it. If they weren’t popular they wouldn’t survive and it can’t be defeated from the air nor by reservists. They know they are seen as terrorists to be annihilated so they in turn inflict annihilation. As usual, Carl Schmitt got it right:
And again:
What is new is that the Cold War is over and the era of the Middle East as the terrain of conventional war is over. It ended with the invasion of Lebanon in 1982, on the one hand, and the intifada in 1987, on the other hand. Hizbollah emerged as a partisan movement out of the Lebanon invasion and Hamas emerged as a partisan movement in the same year that the intifada began. They are both political movements with political aims and labelling them as terrorists is the usual response of strong states who love nothing more than pulverising weak states and hate partisan movements whose mobility wounds them ceaselessly.
Schmitt again:
Katz:
No worries.
Mark:
D*mn, missed it. I am listening to Philip Adams Late Night Live on the current situation instead – whilst doing hunt&peck on the keyboard. Recommend everyone listen to LNL repeat tomorrow at 4:05pm AEST on ABC Radio National (think it’s also podcast).
Well may you say “WTF”. Could it be that the Crazy Temporarily-Unimpeached Emperor of the (as yet) United States is actually trying to get America OUT of the United States? Just a thought.
The US objected to the use of the word ‘deliberate’ regarding the attack on the UN outpost. Which means that if the following is true then maybe the word should have been ‘incompotetent.’
Not sure which is the more distrurbing.
Mark:
Ooops. My last post should have said “… to get America out of the United Nations. ….”.
Katz:
Thanks. My previous post appeared before your 10:37pm one in which you quoted .
should he have added ” …. and on the orders of certain American officers utterly loyal to President G W Bush regardless of their duty to the United States, ….”??
Don’t worry about any stench arising from Australia’s eagerness to go for retrospective legislation at the drop of a hat, try the translation of the 1964 Afghanistan Constitution, Chapter Three – The People, which says that “No person may be punished except under a law already in effect”. I wonder if that still applied when Hicks was in Afghanistan?
This is essentially the problem Israel faced with Hesbollah
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2281184_1,00.html
Now Israel is not naive enough to believe it can remove Hesbollah completely from southern Lebanon. After all it still has a recalcitrant Hamas on its borders. It’s aim is to destroy the business and infrastructure interests of Hesbollah as a functioning state actor within Lebanon. Without that Hesbollah is just another ruler of the rubble like Hamas. That leaves the Lebanese Shia to decide whether their future lies with Hesbollah or greater Lebanon. The West will be giving Iranians the same offer fairly soon.
Aside from the odiousness of devastating an entire state and impoverishing half a million people to ‘destroy’ a guerilla group as a ’state actor’ (whatever the hell that means. With bomber-boosters like Obby the less successful the bombing, the vaguer the goals), this tactic just isn’t going to work. Hezbollah (and its ilk) thrives not on sound business investments and maturing T-bonds (jeez Obby, where do you get this stuff?) but on Angry Young Men, of which there will be no shortage in this wonderful ruined future Condi has planned.
We are witnessing a new dawn in West Blogistan. The LPDF is actively engaged in a program to degrade Observa’s capacity as a blog actor…
Shorter Leinad: obs, you’re weird, dude.
Katz: your point regarding David Hicks is a good one, which has been raised before by legal academics and professional organisations.
Leinad,
Hesbollah in Lebanon was not simply a ‘guerilla group’ as you put it. They were the defacto govt of southern Lebanon in every way, as well as virtually ‘owning’ their autonomous economy.(did you read my link?) They used that economic power to build a war machine to destroy Israel, albeit with the collusion of Iran and Syria. Israel has understood that implicitly for some time now. When Hesbollah attacked Israel in an act of war along with Hamas, Israel has reacted swiftly to destroy the threat. Hesbollah can’t cry foul as the aggressor now. I agree it’s a great pity Hesbollah’s actions have created the odiousness you speak of for their constituency, but that is no less than what they and their backers continually plot for Israel.
Mark,
Considering the collection of dudes, dudettes and duds that hang out at LP, I’m fascinated to hear their explanations as to why they favour the Hesbollah/Hamas/Syria/Iran view of the world. Now that really is beyond weird.
Obby, as has been pointed out, by myself and dozens of other posters, Israel’s bombing campaign is not wholly focused on Hezbollah or it’s ‘constituency’ (as if it ever could be – like those 500 pound bombs have voting records written into their guidance system ‘67% DRUZE DISTRICT: ABORT! ABORT!’) as you and others have asserted, but has spread far and wide, attacking Christian cities, nationwide road and airport infrastructure, Anti-Syrian/Hezbollah TV stations, pharmaceutical plants, milk factories and paper mills.
This strategy is cruel and indiscriminate, but even worse, it’s just plain stupid. Hezbollah’s strength doesn’t come from ‘infrastructure’ but ‘pissed off people with a grudge against Israel’ and by bombing the country to rubble, Israel is making them stronger, and the anti-Hezbollah forces weaker.
This ain’t Speed duuuude: shooting the hostage don’t work.
You are either with obby or against obby. Such is the peril of the false dilemma.
Thanks Robert.
Perhaps the next step is political.
Is this advice accessible via Freedom of Information?
Mark,
Not sure why, but a comment I posted last night seems to have been moderated.
Uri Avnery says of the current situation
He goes on to say
And concludes
.
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article14220.htm
Also there is an interview with him here:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14229.htm
He starts off by saying:
For the way out of this war:
Meantime, Robert Fisk asks
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14223.htm
And Ashraf Ismail gives 6 reasons why Israel can’t win the war in Lebanon, arguing that:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14226.htm
And consequently he dreads that
what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Sorry, cal, I can’t find your comment anywhere.
Ten points, Leniad, for the best line of the week, nay, month!
Yes, the clarity of Yeats’ words rings as true as ever:
observa you are beeing totally dishonest in conflating criticism of Israel with support of Hezbollah, very blairite in fact.
Capturing two soldiers is an act of war?
You must have been advising the German high Command in 1914
Is Obs that old?
Katz [8:29am]:
Don’t know …. but if it popped up in a Royal Commission there would be an epidemic of sudden-onset memory loss
Robert [at 1:41am]
Indeed ….so why didn’t they do anything about the flashing red warning lights and the alarm bells????
Observa:
I’m afraid Israelis have really lost the plot – and sadly, because of that they will probably lose their existence – because twice now, they allowed their emotions to completely overrule any strategy they may have had for survival and prosperity. First: in electing Ariel Sharon …. what mind-altering substances went into their water supplies for that to happen? There is no other rational explanation for that incident of mass lunacy. Second: by trying to solve what was essentially a very serious political and social problem with bullets, shells and bombs alone. Of course suicide-bombers killing and maiming innocent people would enrage anyone; so too are rocket attacks and the capture of one’s own soldiers … but that’s no excuse for stupidity. It was not a miliary problem until Israel went on the rampage in the Lebanon and in Gaza …. to the delight of Hizbollah and its friends. For a nation that purports to safeguard the memory of the Holocaust, Israel has now completely ignored the lessons of how the Nazis gained fanatical adherents and rose to power in Germany. It is obvious that Hizbollah did learn those lessons very well indeed.
Plea to posters:
Please don’t try too hard to change Observa’s mind.
If you succeeded you’d expunge some precious moments of mirth.
And this sad old world is short enough of mirth already.
Katz:
Okay then. I’m all for mirth, glee, fun, chuckles and joking …. beats h*ll out of the alternatives.
No worries Mark
I’ve always said that post WTC it is not just a crime punishable by violent death to be a terrorist, tragically in a de facto senseit is also a similar crime to live next door to one, or to be the young child of one, or to be the young child of somebody who happens to be living next door to one. Don’t blame Israel the US or Australia for this shameful turn of events, blame the guilty. The cause of Israel is just as is the cause of the COW in Iraq. These people do not bomb countries because they feel like it, they bomb them because the needs of the civilised world require it.
James, do you know of any good sleepwear/bedding places, around?
Cause I was just wondering – how do you sleep at night?
An interesting twist is that Al Qaeda has raised it’s ugly head regarding Lebanon.
It can be seen either as a call for Shia and Sunni Muslimes to join against Israel. Or, as others have mentioned, Al Qaeda is upset that attention is not focused on them. Hezbollah is getting all the press while Al Qaeda seems to have become yesterday’s terrorist.
Either way it isn’t good especially if Al Qaeda decide that they need attention again.
Interesting twist indeed as Juan Cole says:
http://www.juancole.com/2006/07/al-qaeda-enters-fray-israeli.html
Marginalises the corrupt Sunni regimes (Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc) in the eyes of their populaces just that little bit more.
Oh good, a fresh batch of RWDB chickenhawks. My favourite whipping boys.
They’re easily spotted. They thump the drums of war and proclaim their absolute detemination to confront evil with the last drop of their neighbours’ kids blood.
Instead of wearing out their trigger fingers typing words of blood and steel, they should put them to proper warlike use.
For all you keyboard warriors, here’s the Australian Armed Forces recruitment website:
http://www.careerjet.com.au/cgi-bin/user/search.cgi?r=32561&c=3022&t=&s=
Click! Click!
This is the act of war(from Wikipedia) that started the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel.
“At 9:05 AM local time (06:05 CET), on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah initiated a Katyusha rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and villages of northern Israel, injuring at least 8 Israelis[18]. Afterwards, a ground contingent of Hezbollah militants attacked two Israeli armored Humvees on a routine patrol along the Israel-Lebanon border near the Israeli village of Zar’it with anti-tank rockets, capturing two Israeli soldiers, and killing eight.[19] According to the Lebanese police force and Hezbollah, the Israeli soldiers were attacked and captured on the Lebanese side of the border on 12 July during a mission to infiltrate the Lebanese town of Ayta al-Sha`b,[20] although remains of the Humvees were found in Israel. [21]”
Have you all got that now? Not only that fact, but the fact that Hesbollah, an Iranian sponsored terrorist group committed to the destruction of Israel had been building a military state within the state of Lebanon, contrary to your beloved UN’s peace settlement in fact. For the past 6 years Hesbollah actively secreted a system of military bunkers and fortifications among the Lebanese civilian community and stocked them with munitions and thousands of offensive rockets, again contrary to your beloved UN. Notice that unlike Israel who builds air raid shelters for its villagers and townsfolk, Hesbollah only build bunkers for military hardware and terrorists. Hence the different civilian casualty rates. All this and then the intellectual pygmies here at LP reckon Israel should cop it sweet when Hesbollah attack their towns and kill and capture their citizenry. Presumably they were meant to go on copping it sweet in order to earn the undying admiration of the usual suspects here at LP. Those same fools who would happily see AmenJihad’s Iranian terrorists sally forth against all and sundry, from the comfort of a nuclear umbrella. What is it with lefties and their love of dictators. Is it the theocratic mantra or the raw power that appeals most here I wonder. Of course Israelis understand they’re no better at debating moral ambiguities than anyone else here. Just that they need to be good at war. Whilst they have often been good at that as rank underdogs, they certainly don’t feel the need to go back there in order to be the chivalrous dead of history. They’ll leave that to those that worship suicide more avidly.
Ah yes, where would we be without Al-Quaida? You gotta laugh at those who think feeding the croc will keep him off their backs. Osama’s right hand man Ayman al-Zawahiri says AQ will join the fight and AQ saw “all the world as a battlefield” He said the fighting was “a jihad for God’s sake and will last until our religion prevails… from Spain to Iraq.” (todays advertiser pge4) So much for lefty Zapatero pulling Spain out of Iraq to lie low eh? Another dopey infidel feeding the croc.
I’m not that fresh, I’ve been here before but been away on holidays.
I never claimed to have a clear conscience or to sleep well at night. I sure as hell don’t let myself off the hook for being a western capitalist by pretending to barrack for the underdogs against the great satan and its conga line of suckholes. My God, in life we rarely get moral choices as easy as the one between a decent modern democratic and peaceful nation trying to survive surrounded by medievel butchers who’d kill you as quick as they’d kill me (and they’d be right in one respect, we are the same).
So I am only given the choice of joing the defence force or joining the peace pansies. It’s not really a fair cop. It’s like me saying to you, if you like Hezbollah so much why don’t you move to South Lebanon. Though maybe theyre both fair questions. Probably both organisations would have neither of us.
James Hamilton
In total agreement James. Lebanon was a democracy before this butchery by their neighbour.
Peter,
I’ll be interested in Cole’s follow up. My guess is that Al Qaeda aren’t interested so much in a pan Islamic uprising but more of using the situation for their own good and some waving of hands to reminds us they are still around. There is a huge ideological divide with Hezbollah and Al Qaeda that I don’t think iwill ever be crossed
JH.
You weren’t presented with an either/or. You were presented with an open choice.
If you choose not to become a belligerent you may have very good reasons for not doing so.
In return, please do opponents of the various wars in the Middle East the same courtesy.
Has it not occurred to you that many of us support the existence of the State of Israel, even perhaps in its present expanded status, and that many of us want a stable, secular Iraq?
Our disagreements are over the methods. Some opponents follow a moral line. Others, among whom I count myself, follow a utilitarian line. I, for one, believe the present US strategies in the Middle East are suicidally moronic. They will not achieve proclaimed ends and they’ll make things worse.
I have argued that line since before the invasion of Iraq. And I see no reason to change it.
I respect the moralist position, but I find it to be somewhat irrelevant to realities on the ground.
I have contempt for simpletons who believe that there is a military solution to these problems and who continually return to that course of action in the face of patent failure.
An analogy. The best teachers you had were those who had no need to use or threaten violence. The worst teachers you had were those who used nothing but violence, and when they used it they used it ineffectually.
Some classes are very unruly. The best teachers find a way. The worst are swallowed up and spat out.
We all want well-ordered classrooms for our kids. Which teachers would you sack?
Update on the IDF attack on the UN post in Lebanon, for those not already aware of it. It seems Hizbollah was using it as cover for its attacks on Israel.
Oh, please. We are not talking about a class room we are talking about a war. Thank you for your reply and I will take up no more time/space on a thread that I’ve arrived at late and has probably moved on from this fairly fundamental phase anyway.
I agree Shaun, but the dynamics of this is such that further destabilisation/escalation could lead to strange bedfellows. The enemy of my enemy is my friend when the chips are down (perhaps.)
Observa – we all realise that Hezbollah is not the pin-up boy of the region. But guess what – it’s possible to condemn Hizbollah’s attack and condemn Israel’s bombing campaign.
Just like it is possible to condemn Saddam’s crimes and condemn Bush’s crimes against humanity that have left Iraq a basket-case of human misery.
If I hit you – and then you shoot me in the head, LPers may be within their rights to conclude that you’d over-reacted without endorsing, however much it may hurt some of them, my initial action.
THe shame of it all that some who admired Hitler and sold pig iron to Japan could be called lefties.
If I hear or read on this fucking blogg one more time Hitler was a lefty I am going to fucking scream.He was for the last time re-peat after me “A RABID RIGHT WING FUCKING NUT CASE.Who incidently not only like to dress in womens clothes had a thing for womens anusus mainly Eva Brauns.
A right wing rabid cracker jack, who would have fitted in well in the John Birch society or any other rabid right wing orginisation.And for you wing nuts it was he the RIGHT WING RABID NUTCASE That depend on who you read,was responsible for the death of 6 million jews.
George Bush is a RABID RIGHT WING NUTCASE who like Hitler may yet be responsible for WW3.This fucker wouldn’t know what an Arabian Camel looked like much less the Hizbollah,Israel should be condemned for this latest total fuck up and many of its supporters are saying just that.
To accuse anyone for condemnation of Israel for their current actions as anti-semitic, is an insult of the highest order.The government of Israel should be taken out and horse whipped for its actions in Lebanon.There Ive said it.You can do this before or after the leadership of Hizbollah has copped the same flogging.Howard should cop one for his blatant opportunism, he knows what is going on is wrong but his hands are tied just ask him.
Maybe Hitler was a National Socialist Righty Phill, but given his detente with Stalin, hatred of Jews and close ties with the Mufti, he is easily confused with one.
..easily confused with a lefty.
See, even I’m confused
Google mufti Hitler for swags of links on this dynamic duo.
Delightful
National Socialism wasn’t it Phill? Allied with another United Socialist Republic until their dictators fell out, as I recall.
As for being anti-semitic I couldn’t give a stuff if you are or aren’t, just so long as you’re not anti-civilisation. Perhaps this Zapatero voter here http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Articles/Rodriguez-2005-09-23.asp
understands that, but then maybe he’s just from Barcelona eh?
Getting back to Israel’s reasons for wanting to win the war against Iranian Hesbollah in Lebanon, they fully understand what they’re up against
http://www.nysun.com/article/36557
Basically it’s our civilisation versus theirs. If good people don’t want to die alongside these fundamentalist, suicidal, whackos and their filthy mediaeval doctrine, then don’t have anything to do with them. It’s as simple as that and it applies to us all. There can be no exceptions if our civilisation is to carry on. Unfortunately Lebanese are learning that the hard way again now. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and the will to defend it to the death from the jackboot brigade. Has that come as a hell of a culture shock to you Phill? You should have studied real history instead of that luvvy pomo flower arranging they spun you. Still, they meant well and shielded you from all the grown up nasties until now.
Meanwhile on the thin blue line
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292016352&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer
What, Hesbollah who?
What, Hamas who?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqGjz7iJTns&mode=related&search=
We’re strictly a humanitarian organisation.
James Hamilton …. and Observa:
I can understand your feelings about Israel and Hizbollah but there was no excuse for Israel relying on brute force alone, especially against an organization with the characteristics of Hizbollah.
If, in the past several years, the Israelis had focused on finding out WHY and HOW Hizbollah was able to get themselves so thoroughly entrenched in these villages, taken the answers seriously (no matter how unpalatable) and then taken political, economic and social measures to undermine Hizbollah’s position then none of this would have happened. The Israelis are now paying a terrible price for their love-affair with things that go bang.
Phill:
Agree that Hitler was a Right-Wing Rabid Nutcase – however he had drive, charisma, vision (even though it was a horrific one for us). But I do object to you associating him with that G-d m-f nong-nong in the White House for the moment.
Speaking as someone whose ancestry in the matrilineal line makes her Jewish (do RWDBs realise that you need a Jewish mother to be Jewish – a Jewish father a gentile does not a Jew make)… Observa, you’re weird, dude!
“All that luvvy pomo flower arranging they spun you” What the? What scares me is you are serious? National Socialism wasn’t it Phill ? What? What?have you lost your marbles?Observa now get with the programme,I’m sure there is a library somewhere near you.National Socialism is a misnomer,National Socialists were about as socialist as,Shit,I don’t know, what about Alexander Downer? ,Maggie Thatcher? or your mentor John Howard?, or wait for it! the big one Menzies?
“Basically it’s our civilisation against theirs”. Of course ours is superior, we are white when we were living in caves, Arabs were having hot baths and discovering algebra. What? Yea i know i didn’t believe it myself.We Anglo Saxons seem to have a mortgage on superiority.Fuck I’m pissed but fuck it push on.
“If these people don’t want to die alongside these fundamentalist suicidal whackos and their filfthy medievil doctrine then don’t have anything to do with them” ,it applies to us all. Observa and here’s me thinking you are a fuck wit, you are indeed a man of vision. Of course this is what the workers said after and during the industrial revolution.Which of course I’m sure you know a real lot about?But please keep blogging,it’s I dunno funny?you decide.
Shorter Obi “Wogless” Ken-Obbi: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
It is 5.50 here in the beautiful west, and a whole day in front of me trawling the net looking for, and insulting right wing cracker jacks.Fuck life is good.
This line of argument is utterly bizarre. It could equally be argued from this fact that Stalin was a Right Winger.
And James Hamilton:
That’s why it’s called an analogy James. Look at the central issue. Unless you’re some kind of maniac who believes fighting war is an end in itself, war’s only rational objective is to compel the enemy to conform to a prescribed behaviour. You want compliance.
Then the question remains: what is the most effective and sustainable method to achieve compliance? Sometimes that is via war. The First Gulf War was a fine example of effective war.
But often, and more frequently given cultural and technical developments, war is an ineffective method.
And war is still less effective when itis being prosecuted by idiots like Rumsfeld and Bush.
But then again, perhaps RWDBs don’t like to talk about school with all those bad memories of failure and inadequacy, and alll.
Peter T.B. I went to the provided link and what did I see?David Horowitz, I closed the link.More re-writing of history,say no more.I love the word mufti,I wonder if old Schicklegruber liked muff, cause I certainly do.
Yair, he had an alsation dog called “Blondi”.
Right on Katz, analogies make some reach for their revolvers. I think the word “Rumsfeld” will enter the lexicon of military nomenclature, ie military Colonel Klink analagous to “Boycott.”
On the other hand in Israel, even the one eyed Dyan would be turning in his grave at the incompetence.
Hey, Kim, I’m Jewish too, if not by custom, by matrilineal descent.
But back to this:
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2006/07/whos_arming_isr.html
What Israel has un-leashed on Lebanon will go down as the biggest strategic blunder since Moses parted the Red Sea.What upsets me the most is the media beat up of the threat of terrorism is now going to meet the propagandist’s expectations.I bet the Generals in the Pentagon will be dead set wetting themselves with glee for what is about to go down over this.”Dr Strangelove”They reckon truth is stranger than fiction.But yippee Im in my dotage it wont worry me.
Oh by the way Peter didn’t schicklegruber poisen that German sheppard?(it was o/k to call them German Sheppards in Germany)it must have been a shit wellington.
Rob,
Irregardless of whether Hezbollah used the UN compound for cover, the UN observers repeatedly asked Israel to stop their attacks in the hours prior to the strike that killed the four observers.
It is not the first time a UN compund has been hit by the IDF in Lebanon.
Phill, there’s any number of links out there showing the allegiance of the palestinians to the Nazis before WWII. This present conflict is merely the latest phase of a war that has been going on for a century – or centuries if you count the original armed subjugation of the area by the muslims
Google on
Peter T.B. Of course quite correct. I have investigated this relationship before,however what Horowitz’s opinion is on this matter is of no consequence, he is a rabid right winger with more bias than a sailing ship in a force ten gale.Should we lock up the children of Italian/German immigrants to Australia?what is your point ?.Croation’s were as ruthless as the Nazi’s we still let them immigrate.This is about politics of the Jewish claim to the land of Israel.I agree with their claim I don’t agree with their method of substantiating it.
We as Australians (white) only hold Australia because we are the majority,what would we do if this changed overnight? These arguements as always come down to who has the biggest stick,the rights or wrongs are a side issue.The Ottoman empire could lay claim to it so what!
Anyone who can fob off the lives of innocent people in a war that we only have an outside veiw of,is a fuck head and I will have nothing to do with them or their opinions.What ever the outcome of this fiasco the powers that be had better get their brains and arseholes wired together, or this may just get out of hand.
Support for Hezbollah doesn’t seem to be waning. And for some reason damage has been done to US credibility in the Middle East as well. Who woulda thunk it?
Richard Armitage, always a closet foreign policy realist among the Neocon rabble when he was a deputy to Powell has let rip this in contradiction to the delusional pap that emanates daily from the administration.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/27/armitage-mideast/
Fair point, Shaun, although the IDF would probably take the view that as long as they were coming under attack from the vicinity of the observation post they had every right to fire back. I wonder if the UN asked Hizbollah to refrain from using the post as cover.
In any event, it shows the moral equation was not quite a straightforward as some here appeared to suppose.
Agreed Rob but as much as Hezbollah deserve condemnation the actions of the IDF are cause for concern.
A good article in today’s SMH on the difficulties the UN faces.
Let’s not fall for that old trick. You only have to disavow your Jewish faith and you are no longer Jewish. There is no Jewish race, only a Jewish faith.
Kim, I think you have to decide whether you are a Jew or a Catholic.
Weathergirl, are you telling us you don’t have a choice in the matter?
I would like to see a thread where people question their faith. I think LP should be a site where people discuss religion from a left of centre perspective.
Religion comes up here a fair bit tangentially, and amongst the LP collective we appear to have a fair scattering of atheist/agnostics, vaguelydeists and liberal theists.
You seem to be that rarer bird, an evangelical anti-theist. Personally, I find any form of dogged evangelism wearying, although a civil approach with some thought-provoking questions I don’t mind too much. Try and walk that line, and I’ll ask you not to hijack this thread.
I’ll think about it a bit and put up a thread soon about people’s understanding of the influence of religious culture vs religous faith, because that is an interesting question, and it raises some other interesting questions as well.
In a religious sense I’m a Catholic, silkworm.
PeterKemp
I’ll second that motion ….. so that’s where that underground rumbling sound was coming from.
Richard Armitage was an American working for the best interests of America …. more than can be said for the bunch of loonies and losers running (or rather, ruining) America now. Naturally, they’ll hang him for that.
Editorial from Lebanon’s Daily Star
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=17&article_id=74375
The next roll of the dice could be in Sistani’s warning should Israel reinstitute bombing after the 24 hour respite: (Juan Cole)
http://www.juancole.com/2006/07/sistani-threatens-us-over-israeli-war.html
Iraq.
PeterKemp …. and Everyone:
The dice have stopped rolling …. get out your shovels and start digging, fast …. right here in far away Australia too.
Just heard the news …. Israel will continue bombing.
Uri Avnery at counterpunch.org on the logic of guerilla/partisan war(see also my above post concerning wars outside the laws of war as founded on terror and counter-terror):
Cole’s comments, quoted by PK above, represent a presentation of the most serious flashpoint in the Middle East.
It should be borne in mind that everything that Sistani has promised to do, he has done, and every time since “Mission Accomplished” that Sistani has confronted US military power in Iraq, the Bush clique have been forced to back down.
Sistani’s interventions have been remarkable for their moderation. These latest utterances, however, represent a measurable increase in his militancy.
They offer the Bush clique very little wriggle room, unlike Bush’s previous backdowns when confronted by the potential power of the Shiite masses of Iraq.
As GB opines above, this is a dangerous moment driven entirely by the way in which different parties conduct themselves in Lebanon.
I found much to agree with in this comment by Mary Riddell in The Observer.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1833487,00.html
Peace is as simple as ABC. From Tikkun:
For PeterTB re- Israeli confirmation of strike on ambulances:
http://tinyurl.com/rw6um
Sistani’s ability to organise protests offers the US little wiggle room ?
If there is a Shi’a backlash in Iraq against the US for the Lebanon campaign some protests would be about the best possible outcome. Right now most supply routes for US troops in Iraq run through areas owned lock and stock by far less moderate Shi’a leaders and militias with a not unsubstantial presence of Iranian agents thrown in for good measure. They have the ability to bleed the US military in Iraq to death.
I see Sam over at Catallaxy has stirred up a hornet’s nest by daring to suggest that it’s not as simple as “us” vs. “them”:
http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=1960
Here’s a suggestion. While this sort of loud & spirited debate over a calamity of this size is necessary and expected, a lot of the hot air and accusations are in fact helping no one but the people who are venting. We can’t really affect the large structural disasters with our mere opinions. But surely there are good deeds in the region that need to be done.
Given the prodigious and admirable research skills of so many people on this blog, I wonder if it would be possible to identify some family or individual in Lebanon right now who is in need of aid, and organize some sort of blog-to-the-rescue assistance. I’m sure there are plenty of displaced families and so on who could use some sort of help in putting their lives back together. I’m no good at research, but if somebody can come up with target-able details, I’d be happy to pitch in and contribute. And if the model succeeds, then the m.o. could be exported to other blogs, who could in turn organize to help other individuals, and so forth.
Maybe if you showed everyone where you failed this kind of research in the past, I sure someone on the blog could help you improve those very important skills to the point that you could identify some worthy “targets”.
To be blunt, I detect a soupcon of insincerity.
But I also perceive talent. Disingenuousness isn’t beyond you j-p-z.
Everyone:
On this Friday at 1pm AEST, SBS TV will rebroadcast tonight’s discussion on how the war there affects people here. Although by Friday it will be slightly out-of-date.
Katz:
I’ll give j-p-z the benefit of the doubt; his heart is in the right place.
Bartleby:
Great idea ….. implementing it might be troublesome.
Katz: “…Maybe if you showed everyone where you failed this kind of research in the past… To be blunt, I detect a soupcon of insincerity. But I also perceive talent. Disingenuousness isn’t beyond you j-p-z. ”
Oh, brother.
Hey Katz, since you gaze down upon the world from such a lofty and superior height, maybe you can do me a little favor. My neighbor’s kid hit a whiffle ball up on my roof, and I think it might be stuck in my satellite dish. Can you see, from your great altitude, whether it’s up there or not? Or do those icicles that form in your eyebrows sometimes obstruct the view?
In return, I know a pretty good ‘human fly’ who could climb up there and bring you a nice sandwich once in a while, in case you’re starting to get a bit peckish.
Y’see j-p-z!
Your research skills have already improved. That human fly whiffle ball solution is very creative indeed.
Keep up the good work.
Amazing that politicians appear to believe their own bs
http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/feeds/ap/2006/08/01/ap2920278.html
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14309.htm
08/01/06 “The Independent”
JPZ – I haven’t been surfing their part of the web for a while but omidyar.net (a social change network site created by Ebay founder Pierre Omidyar and using similar technology) often gets into that kind of thing and they often talk about the kind of strategies needed.
And what the hell is a wiffle ball?
New Jersey Wiffle Ball association website:
http://www.wiffleballusa.com/
Michael G: “…And what the hell is a wiffle ball?”
See, bro, this is the sort of stuff you miss out on by refusing to acknowledge the pre-eminence of the One True Sport, baseball. A whiffle ball is a little plastic techno-aerodynamic marvel which, when properly thrown, kinda-sorta simulates the peculiar flight path of the knuckleball or curveball, for folks who are too young or too lazy to master those profound and mysterious arts in the original. In order to appreciate its qualities, you need to attempt the tricky and rather graceless feat of hitting the damn thing on the fly with a whiffle-ball bat, which project tends to be lacking in dignity. OTOH, though, the ugly plastic yellow whiffle-ball bat makes for a superb/annoying/revolting comedy prop in various situations.
Whiffle ball is a pastime best suited for block parties and drunk frat boys, to be sure; still, it has its moments, and enables one to play a fairly good game in the living room without breaking all of Great-Aunt Drusmilda’s priceless antique Ming vases. Unless, of course, ya wanna.
But these are mere variations upon variations upon the basic theme (’in-the-box’-ball and stickball being far more challenging and rewarding, for instance), which theme is of course, the most profound and nuanced and compelling in the history of all sport since the great world was set a-turning: yea verily, even unto being the sport of the Gods themselves. C’mon over to the dark side, man, and check out the revelatory black art of the Bambino.
Nicest and most well informed American you’ll ever hear here, that JPZ.
He’s NYC and I’m LA, but he rules.
What revolting hypocrisy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1835302,00.html
Would those same “rules” be inclusive of you and the US invading Iraq Mr Blair?
In reality, the confrontation is now the other way.
The international community is going to have a lot more to say after this whole slaughter is over, and it won’t be through the auspices of the UN or NATO. Like boycotts of Israeli products and holidays for starters.
Sorry to go back a few hundred posts, but with regard to Condi’s comments about “birth pangs”:
Has anyone read Skinny Legs and All, by Tom Robbins? It is largely set in the middle east. At the end, he optimistically describes the ongoing state of war there as being similar to the pains of birth. It was published in 1990.
Two points:
1. Condi oughta try reading something more recent, or get her staff to. Alternatively, she could work on some less hackneyed (and problematic) metaphors.
2. Long, traumatic births typically result in less than optimal health outcomes for mother and child.
LP folks: Any thoughts on the tragic events at Qana? Here’s my take.
Qana massacre faked by Hezbollah, Rob? And your “evidence” is that a poster of Rice was whipped up inside two days? You, like the IDF, clearly underestimate the capacities of some Lebanese.
Youre becoming a risible apologist for civilan deaths, Rob. This is a step away from some of your more rational attempts, over the the dark side. An understandable emotional response, perhaps, since reasoned argument ceased to be of much use pro-Israeli ideologues about two weeks ago. Why dont you have a looked at these “Staged” photos, Rob?
http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/07/qana_massacre_2.php (not for the squeamish)
And tell me, plese, precisely WHAT is inconsistent or difficult to believe about Israel indiscriminately striking civilian targets from the air, given their behaviour of the last month?
And perhaps you’d care to give us your “informed” view of how:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Qana_airstrike#_note-16
Rob, in Israel, this kind of third-rate, objective-source-dodging apologist excretia is called ‘revisionism’.
And finally, get a grip man: the IDF doesnt deny hitting Qana. Do you understand that last sentence? Its fairly significant. Are you reading us? Try to keep up, for crissake, you’re becoming an embarassment to your cause.
Hmm, a teeny bit frantic there, Lefty E. I think you are unerringly missing all the real issues. I presume you followed the links?
No, couldnt be bothered with more RWDB fringe whacko crap, Rob. Time is money. All we need to know here is that:
1. The IDF admits bombing Qana.
2. Rob deems it a Hezbollah fake-up.
This is, on the face of it, completely out of touch with reality. Now at the vanguard of apologism, you’ve even left the Israelis behind.
Come back towards the light and I’ll start reading your links.
OK, Lefty E. We’re not going to get anywhere with this.
Factoids for thought, though:
The IDF certainly bombed Qana – at around 0100 hours. Apparently the building collapsed at 0800. Somewhat surprisingly, there actually seems to be some question as to whether the IAF hit the building at all. The IDF claim the building was used as an explosives store. Evacuation only commenced when the TV cameras were there. No wounded were shown being evacuated. 28 bodies were recovered, according to the Lebanese Red Cross, not 54, as reported by the MSM, and 19 of them were children. Those shown to the media – brandished at the media might be a better description, the poor things were handled like rag dolls. They showed no signs of bleeding or the kind of trauma one would expect if they had been killed by an explosion or by falling debris. No building dust appeared present. In some cases, rigor mortis appeared to be well established, indicating death took place some time prior (though there is debate about this).
In contrast to Baghdad “Comical” Bob, we have conspiracy Rob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Saeed_al-Sahaf
This was Baghdad Bob
Here’s what conspiracy Rob and Baghdad Bob seem to have in common:
like wacko wingnut conspiracy sites no less.
Really scraping the barrel for pathetic excuses Rob, nobody but wingnuts wants to debate your conspiracy fantasies.
[/Laughs] Fair enough, Peter. Try this link, though. Wingnut out.
Posting only to bump this thread back up the sidebar on the front page, so it’s easier to find for those who want to keep discussing this over the weekend.
Rob, why no mention of the grassy knoll?
Like all conspiracy theories Qana falls as soon as the basic premise (the alleged timelime between the bombing and the collapse of the wall) is investigated.
Rob, can you work out what the problem is with the alleged timeline?
You tell me, Shaun.
The so called gap between when the building was bombed and when it collapsed is based on only insinuation and distortion of events. Qana residents have stated the building collapsed soon after the strike. Due to shelling and difficulties in getting to the area the first western journos did not get there until the morning as did many of the rescue services.
I agree that there was an inflated body count and that could be Hezbollah but it could also be a case of confusion (remember the initial reports coming out of New York re casulties on 911?)
Even funnier is the fact the mysterious “Green Helmet” has a name and has been interviewed by the MSM a number of times. Why let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy?
The alleged inconsistencies regarding Qana is just your normal war zone SNAFU. I agree there may have been Hezbollah using it for propaganda. Then again how is that any different from those promoting the conspiracy theories regarding Qana?
Shaun, how much sense does this make?
So some got out to take a look around, and left all those kids inside? Besides, the IDF said they ony attacked the building once.
Keeping in mind that Qana is a Hizbollah stronghold. Acccording to hours-old reports on CNN and Fox, Qana was the site from the which the latest attacks on Haifa were launched (3 dead, 189 wounded). The IDF claims to have destroyed the responsible missile installations.
What’s your information on Green Helmet?
‘Green Helmet’ is Naim Raqa I believe, the head of the local Lebanese Civil Defense. He was also photographed at Qana in 1996. In fact, ‘Green Helmet’ has been tagged as Hezbollah by nothing more than ‘gut instinct’ by Richard North.
As for your first point I find nothing strange in regards to people checking for damage after an attack. It is likely that the collapse of the wall was the result of the first attack and people have claimed a second attack in error.
However like Hezbollah, the IDF wants to win the PR battle as well and I don’t trust information from both sides. The IDF initially claimed that the target was the site of rocket attacks, a claim they later retracted.
The Qana attack may be murky on details but that doesn’t justify the absurd allegations arising out of the right side of the blogosphere. The whole edifice the conspiracy theorie is built upon has collapsed.
Some commentary on whether the pictures where staged is here.
Shaun, another take on Green Helmet is here
As for the PR war, Israel immediately acknowledged responsibility for the attack and the killings and apologised profusely. it was only the blogs that started to raise questions about the authenticity of what was alleged to have happened.
Rob,
I’m not adverse to the idea that some photographs were staged but we know how many people were killed and what families they came from. My main issue is with the demonstratably false notion of the ‘time line’ and the ‘missing hours.’
Also the innuendo in the link provided is not convincing. Again it is speculation based on nothing concrete.
Here’s Green Helmet moving bodies again, Shaun — in Tyre (allegedly. I say allegedly because there are stories popping up all over the place about faked images out of this war.) Gets about, doesn’t he?
As I understand it Tyre and Qana are in the same area so not that suprising. Anyway there was an instance where a Lebanese photographer did doctor photographs. Scepticism is a virtue but the Qana conspiracy has an irrational life of its own.
Shaun, check this one out.
FFS, put this into some perspective, Rob:
http://tbogg.blogspot.com/2006/08/where-theres-smoke.html
Sorry, but I’m missing your point there, weathergirl.
The mother of all fake stories from this war:
http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/
auto rv trader