There’s some very interesting writing on the religious-authoritarian worldview around at the moment. Authoritarian childrearing practices such as those recommended and followed by many religious groups are an ancient tradition, and in certain societies add materially to survival prospects. But is authoritarian childrearing a successful strategy for producing adults capable of achieving what they want in our modern society?
Coturnix, guest-blogging at Echidne of the Snakes, offers a round-up of the latest research (follow the links in his post) regarding authoritarian childrearing, how it instils a worldview of extreme competitiveness, suspicion and isolationism, and what that means for attitudes towards sex, gender and the institution of marriage.
Coturnix on Politics, part I – an overview
Sara Robinson, an ex-fundamentalist, is guest-blogging at Orcinus on the authoritarian personality, its impact on people belonging to such groups, and how people who come to leave fundamentalism find the motivation and courage to do so.
Cracks In The Wall, Part I: Defining the Authoritarian Personality
Cracks In The Wall, Part II: Listening to the Leavers
UPDATE: and now, Cracks In the Wal, Part III: Escape Ladders
I will post some more on this topic later, i’m really busy atm, but can i just mention one issue thats flying under the radar at the moment is the influence of the Exclusive Brethren on Aust (esp Tas) politics. You dont get much more fundamentalist and authoritarian than the EB who have recently thrown some big $ around certain campaigns here and in the US and NZ. I think BBrown is calling for an inquiry into their political forays.
I also have a v fundamentalist father (literal bible, creationist etc ..who memorably describes some of my art pieces as blasfamous) and mother, so have a little experience in this area.
The writers critique offers some v valid points but she misses some imp areas. I’ll try and pop back when i have a sec.
btw…i notice Major Mori Hick’s lawyer is on Enough Rope tonight. For crying our loud , even my conservative fundamentalist father thinks the Hicks fiasco is a travesty of justice and cant understand why the Aust govt isn’t demanding he be sent back. Sheeeeze.
Watch this space.
The Exclusive Brethren are a good Aussie example, thanks Tanja. Good to have some homegrown ex-fundamentalists weigh in.
The way in which the Sydney Anglican diocese has been all but taken over by strict-Pauline evangelicals trained at Moore College shows some interesting authoritarian patterns as well, with their obdurate stance against women’s ordination harking back to some of Coturnix’s points.
Tigtog:
If the strict Paulinists – or whatever they’re called – have just about hijacked the Anglican Church then see if you can go as a back-load on a people smuggler’s boat before the unholy fanatics go looking for “guests of honour” when the witch-dunkings and heretic-burnings start up again.
The rest of the Anglican communion in Australia is civil enough, Graham. It’s only Sydney that’s been overrun. And they’re still Anglicans under the authoritarianism, so they’re still losing congregants hand over fist to the Uniting Church one way and the Pentecostalists the other way. They’re imploding.
I think witch-dunking and heretic burning was a Catholic thing, Graham. I hadn’t heard of too many amongst evangelicals, and the ’strict’ pauline thing is a bit of an overrated arguement since Paul was also profoundly into gifts of healings, workings of miracles, speaking in tongues and suchlike, which you don’t get much of around Anglican circles, hence the appeal of Pentecostal churches, which encourage the fullness of the Spirit. Most evangelicals outside of the Anglicans ordain women, and encourage them to be in ministry on the underestanding that the traditional churches have tended to misinterprete his writings about women in ministry.
Authoritarian childrearing seems to be as much a part of 18th to 19th century European culture as of Christian teaching of the time, which may have been adapted to suit the era’s interpretation of the Bible. Victorian England especially seemed to encourage an extremely austere version of Biblical family ethics, which, on the face of it, tended to leave out the most important aspect of any kind of discipline, which is love, and resulted in high levels of cruelty in some cases, but you can’t consider Christian ethics to be part of the child-labour movement of those times, or the inhuman neglect of children in need, or the poor in general.
Without love any kind of child discipline is pointless. But love also dars to correct those who are in error, because without some some kind of direction and encouragement we all go off the rails. Finding the right line between correction in love and abuse for each individual is the real issue here.
Wrong, FaceLift. Witchburning was much more prominent in the Protestant areas of Germany after the Reformation, and you can find lots of heretic burnings on both sides. It’s a bit silly to try and make a numerical judgement. Let’s just say that both phenomena were widespread among both Catholics and Protestants at the same period.
Another quick dash in and out by me but if this may be of interest to some…
http://www.griffith.edu.au//centre/mfc/pdf/raising_children.pdf
As a counter balance to the topic… an invite to this Multi Faith forum / Dialogue on raising Children lobbed into my inbox today via my Uniting CHurch networks. Its at the Griffith Multi Faith centre (Brisbane) on Thursday nite.
The Griffith Multi-faith Centre do some really good work, and hold some very interesting forums and seminars.
It’s well worth a look at their website for past and upcoming events, particularly if you’re in or visiting Brisbane:
http://www.griffith.edu.au/centre/mfc/
Thanks, Mark, I’ll take your point, except for the numerical judgement part, which would reveal far more ‘heretic’ persecutions amongst medieval Catholicists than others, mainly, perhaps, because there were more Catholics, and they had a greater degree of political power at that time, and generally, I think for political reasons rather than spiritual. The eras when these things took place do have a significance.
In England the fires at Smithfield burnt both Protestants and Catholics as heretics, depending on which way the monarch’s religious favour and fervour was blowing. Henry VIII burnt both!
I’m curious about your claim that most evangelical churches ordain women – that hasnt been my understanding about the conservative evangelical groups.
As to Authoritarian childrearing, here’s the text of a very popular with fundamentalists guide by the Pearls: [ link ]. A friend reminded me of it last night. It’s all about instilling fear.
tigtog,
a) I think most evangelicals are into Dobson these days, as far as childrearing advice is concerned, but still have to administer love above all else.
b) I think it’s only the Catholic and Anglican churches which are struggling with ordination of women.
c) I’ve just gone through Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, which has a chapter on the ‘Fires of Smithfield’, which clearly were aimed at those who refused to accept the ’sacriment’ of transubstantiation, by denying the actual presence of Christ in the ‘consecrated’ Eucharist, or speaking out against worshipping images or praying to them, or giving them offerings. Often they had to wear badges with an image of faggots (the kind they used as fuel for the fire they burned heretics in), to denote their ‘heretical status’, and as a warning to others. They took some, including women, to rack and other tortures, in an attempt to get them to either recant or disclose others in their ranks. And yes, they burned them as heretics for these ‘crimes’, by the hundred, from 1410 to 1556, during the reigns of Henry IV to Mary I.
Henry VIII was essentially a Romist who separated the English church from Rome as a matter of convenience, but kept up the basic Roman traditions.
Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, FaceLift, is hardly an impartial historical source.
Is this where the derogatory term “faggot” comes from? Assuming, of course, that sodomites were treated the same way.
Yes.
Cliff, that’s an urban legend. See here.
Much as I hate to argue with my friend Facelift few Evangelicals accept female ordination as it has NO bibilcal support.
Last time I looked the Uniting denomination was losing numbers by the buckets whereas numbers were growing at 10% in the Sydney Anglican ranks.
I notice over at Michael Jensen’s blog ( a very good one I might say , son of the evil Peter Jensen) he is against smacking.
Can’t say I agree with him though.
Awright BBEP, it must be the Pentecostal/charismatic churches which are ordaining women. Soem owuld consider themselves evangelical, however, as well as being charismatic. The Uniting Church was losing numbers becaus eof it’s stance on gay ordination rather than female ordination.
I was under the impression that evangelical/pentacostal churches didn’t really have a sacrement of ordainment analogous to that in Catholicism or Anglicanism.
FaceLift, in Australia it’s only the Sydney Anglican Diocese, moving fast towards evangelical Pentecostalism, which has a huge problem ordaining women. The rest of the Australian Anglican dioceses are largely accepting of women’s ordination (although the Anglo-Catholics aren’t that keen, they’re very much a minority).
Elizabeth I burnt plenty of Catholics at Smithfield, but Foxe didn’t write about them. He was probably lighting the faggots.
As to the childrearing practises of the Pears and the Dobsonites, they say it’s all about love, but the only love they talk about is shown as conditional on their child’s submission, a submission which is instilled by fear. That really doesn’t sound that loving to me.
Thanks for the post, Tigtog. Your last comment reminded me of this, the logical consequences of “tough love”:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/11/campfear.html
And a lot were tortured within in an inch of their life before being executed.
FaceLift should research the lives of St Edmund Campion and the 40 English Martyrs.
If that’s the game he wants to play.
Hehe… my brain inserted a comma between “Elizabeth” and “I” and nearly had a stroke.
It’s amazing the thoughts that run through your mind in just half a second (i.e. realizing that there is no comma, that there is no one on this thread called Elizabeth, that Elizabeth I was a Queen of England, remembering the long discussion that this sentence was referring to, and then nervously laughing at the insanity of thinking even if for a fraction of a second that Tigtog burnt Catholics and then went on LP to tell Elizabeth about it, whoever she is).
My brain needs an upgrade.
I think I know why. You started your first paragraph like this:
i.e (name of LP commenter) (comma) (message to LP commenter)
My brain automatically imposed that formula onto the beginning of the next paragraph, due to the superficial similaritys, i.e (name) (message). All I did was add a comma.
What a weird thing the human (or at least Cliffian) mind is.
St Edmund Campion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Campion
I like the fact that he wrote a thing for the authorities called “Edmund Campion’s Brag”.
The Forty Martyrs of England and Wales:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Forty_Martyrs_of_England_and_Wales
By the way, I’m still a little puzzled as to how we got talking about all this!
And that’s not all. On another thread I came up with an idea to write an romantic tale featuring Keith Windschuttle and an Aboriginal lady. There must have been something in that salmon I ate earlier I swear…
And I’m still waiting for the revision, Cliff.
Well, Mark, I still say there were more burnt for denying transubstantiation than any other so-called ‘heresy’, which seems rather rash to me, more reflective of a demonstrably heavy handed ‘cultic-church’ age, and far more political, methinks, than spiritual. The other, Catholic, people burned for their faith were also harshly done by, and the burning of ‘dissenters’ should never be an excuse for burning Catholics, but the system they were under wasn’t far removed from the alternative, and has led to some distractingly bad press for the Church generally, and has Christians banded in with todays militant religionists, wwho are intent on killing off or enslaving the opposition if they can’t convert them through peaceful means, which has never been the Pentecostal/charismatic way.
There is no precident in the Word for burning heretics, only avoiding them. It was most certainly a Catholic idea to torture and burn them. I’m just attempting some kind of historic accuracy about religious fundamentalism to counter Graham’s aforementioned concerns about a return to those kind of practices pre-Christ’s return, since, according to his theory, Pentecostals seem to be boxed in with hitherto mentioned post Constantine religion, which often sank into the mire of politically motivated violent religious persecution of those who opposed their views.
Cliff, Pentecostals are very serious about ordination. Whilst there wouild be a majority of men ordained, there are often husbands and wives ordained together, and, in some cases women pastors running churches, as well as ordained women in leadership positions who are not senior ministers.
Ands it’s a kind of love that would not ultimately be very satisfying for the parents either. Sure, you can scare someone into serving you, but not into loving you… and even if you try, you’ll be haunted by the suspicion that it’s false and simulated out of fear. Jeez… haven’t these guys read any Hegel? Stupid question
Actually… let’s not bring Hegel into it (just name dropping really. And for my next trick, I’m going to deftly insert Heidegger into a conversation about the weather). What I said is just common sense. Should be, anyway…
Thanks for the link to the MJ story, weathergirl. Very powerful, and how utterly dreadful that so little has changed regarding boot camps for kids in the years since.
FaceLift, my suggestion to you would be that you read some recent history on the phenomenon – and historical scholarship that’s not religiously partisan.
I don’t agree with your analysis, but I think it’s a bit irrelevant to this thread, so I’d prefer to leave it alone.
Though I might mischievously suggest you check out some of Luther’s writings if you want to see someone who really had it in for his spiritual enemies
Well, I dunno, tigtog, we’ve used Dobson to help advise us bring up our children, and I can tell you they are not afraid of me or my wife, in fact we have a very strong, balanced relationship and they are currently happily pursuing their dreams for their lives. As I look around I see other Christian parents with normal, well adjusted children, enjoying life, and i don’t see much evidence of the kind of fear you’re talking about here. There are always exceptions of course, and some parents abuse their children in ignorence, but you’ll find that amongst non-christians as well as amongst Christians.
One observation I’ve made is that sincce taking prayer and discipline out of US schools, many seem to have replaced them with armed security guards and bag-checks. I wonder if there’s a connection?
We now have children approaching their mid teens who have lived under the era where it is taboo to use discipline on children, and the word I’ve heard from some high school teachers is that they are completely different – less respectful, unable to identify property ownership, prone to being self willed and less able to focus on projects, literacy standards dropping – not all, but a growing number. This is the anecdotal story. Is there any research being done in this area? What is the result of ten or so years of discipline free childhood?
I think any family situation, any school and any classroom tends to be structurally authoritarian. In part this is desirable because children need limits. It is also handy if the teacher/parent insists on some social norms such as manners.
But there is a telling comment right at the end of the reference on boot camps linked to by weathergirl:
I’d keep the term ‘love’ out of it, because it doesn’t necessarily overcome the objectification problem. Genuine intersubjectivity is what’s required, or in simple terms it all depends on the quality of the relationship between adult and child.
Brian B,
‘it all depends on the quality of the relationship between adult and child’
Yes, and each child is different and has separate needs,which can’t be categorised cattlefashion, or pushed through a ’sheep-dip’ to scurge out infestations of ‘rebellion’ as if there were some kind of formula for love and identification. Although I think there is no substitute for genuine ‘agape’ love which is unconditional, and has the other person’s interests and dreams at heart.
Atheist that I am, I’ll still say Amen to your last comment, FaceLift.
Yep, well said, Facelift.
I think the blame for burning is equally shared between Facelift, Mark and tig tog.
disciplining children is a neccessary thing to do.
After all you never have to teach a child about how to behave badly.
They need to know what is bad and what the punishment is when they do bad things.
I think this flows with Facelift’s last comment.
Discipline is necessary, but the issue being discussed is a fashion in certain circles for harsh authoritarian discipline. The perpetuation of authoritarian beliefs is the problem.
My children know that their leisure amusements are privileges subject to withdrawal for misbehaviour. When they were too young to understand this, undesirable behaviour was dealt with by immediate removal and time-out. We tried (and sometimes failed) to do all this without raised voices or reaching for the wooden spoon, but I honestly can’t remember the last time I was tempted to even reach for it. That’s not the way we do things.
We’ve also always insisted on manners. If they are demanding, they don’t get what they want. If they are rude or even repeatedly thoughtless of others, they lose privileges to TV/computer/play console/junkfood-night/sleepovers etc. Now that they’re older, we negotiate their punishments with them “you know what you did was wrong, what privileges should you lose for how long?”. They’re tougher on themselves than we would be, actually. We also have special rewards (family outings chosen by rewardee, pick out a DVD/CD/book, or a toy/trinket/souvenir).
So far so good – we’re often complimented on their manners and thoughtfulness (even my autistic son takes care of little kids well). We are the authorities who control the privileges, but we are authoritative, not authoritarian.
Sara Robinson has just posted the third part in her series on leaving fundamentalism: Escape Ladders.