My children know that their leisure amusements are privileges subject to withdrawal for misbehaviour. When they were too young to understand this, undesirable behaviour was dealt with by immediate removal and time-out. We tried (and sometimes failed) to do all this without raised voices or reaching for the wooden spoon, but I honestly can’t remember the last time I was tempted to even reach for it. That’s not the way we do things.

We’ve also always insisted on manners. If they are demanding, they don’t get what they want. If they are rude or even repeatedly thoughtless of others, they lose privileges to TV/computer/play console/junkfood-night/sleepovers etc. Now that they’re older, we negotiate their punishments with them “you know what you did was wrong, what privileges should you lose for how long?”. They’re tougher on themselves than we would be, actually. We also have special rewards (family outings chosen by rewardee, pick out a DVD/CD/book, or a toy/trinket/souvenir).

So far so good – we’re often complimented on their manners and thoughtfulness (even my autistic son takes care of little kids well). We are the authorities who control the privileges, but we are authoritative, not authoritarian.

disciplining children is a neccessary thing to do.
After all you never have to teach a child about how to behave badly.
They need to know what is bad and what the punishment is when they do bad things.

I think this flows with Facelift’s last comment.

Yes, and each child is different and has separate needs,which can’t be categorised cattlefashion, or pushed through a ‘sheep-dip’ to scurge out infestations of ‘rebellion’ as if there were some kind of formula for love and identification. Although I think there is no substitute for genuine ‘agape’ love which is unconditional, and has the other person’s interests and dreams at heart.

But there is a telling comment right at the end of the reference on boot camps linked to by weathergirl:

“The common denominator in all these situations is the objectification of kids,” says DeMuro, the New Jersey corrections expert. “It gets almost spiritual, but the ability to punish humanely has at its core the notion that this person is me, and I am them.”

I’d keep the term ‘love’ out of it, because it doesn’t necessarily overcome the objectification problem. Genuine intersubjectivity is what’s required, or in simple terms it all depends on the quality of the relationship between adult and child.

One observation I’ve made is that sincce taking prayer and discipline out of US schools, many seem to have replaced them with armed security guards and bag-checks. I wonder if there’s a connection?

We now have children approaching their mid teens who have lived under the era where it is taboo to use discipline on children, and the word I’ve heard from some high school teachers is that they are completely different – less respectful, unable to identify property ownership, prone to being self willed and less able to focus on projects, literacy standards dropping – not all, but a growing number. This is the anecdotal story. Is there any research being done in this area? What is the result of ten or so years of discipline free childhood?

I don’t agree with your analysis, but I think it’s a bit irrelevant to this thread, so I’d prefer to leave it alone.

Though I might mischievously suggest you check out some of Luther’s writings if you want to see someone who really had it in for his spiritual enemies