A sticking point in the negotiations over the ceasefire in the Middle East has been the Israeli insistence that Lebanon’s army play a role in securing the border and/or disarming Hizbollah. There’s some very confused assertions being made about the concept of sovereignty, with Israeli Ministers claiming that Lebanon must act as a sovereign over its territory, Bush justifying the Israeli strategy on the grounds that it can’t, and Lebanon demanding Israel leave its selfsame sovereign territory. But what is the actual worth of the Lebanese force in these diplomatic and rhetorical tussles? Not much, according to Der Spiegel.
The Lebanese Army figures prominently in all postwar scenarios envisioned for Lebanon. Current plans call for Lebanon’s army to help secure the border with Israel. But neither Israel nor Hezbollah takes the poorly trained, internally divided force seriously.
Exactly, what army.
Now do you see why a properly resourced and effective military is vital to a functioning democracy?
Your post reads like revisiting an old argument with a gotcha, rog.
Before turning to the ref and yelling “Howzat!”, do you want to be a bit more specific about who said what when that sie should now see “why” you’ve shot hir down in flames?
Yes, the weakness of the Lebanese Army was a sticking point in the charade that is about to be played out.
But the sliding point (if that’s the opposite of a sticking point) was the huge desire of Olmert to withdraw Israeli forces from Lebanon before his political position completely imploded.
It is frequently insisted that war is politics by other means. It is worth reminding that phoney peace is politics by the usual means.
Guerrilla armies make this transition between pretend war and phoney peace much more elegantly and efficiently than nation states.
This pretend war was fought for the hearts and minds of Muslims throughout the Middle East. Hezbollah (and Iran) achieved most of these objectives.
That is why Hezbollah won.
From Robert Fisk at counterpunch.org:
Are you for real Katz: : “That is why Hezbollah won.” No-one wins a war let alone the just completed bloody afair – I reckon you get some type of perverse please in typing such lunancy.
When did I say it wasn’t, rog? I’m not a pacifist. Of course I accept that. What’s your point?
And another well-modulated voice joins the lists…
What does the word “most” mean to you robertson?
could the Lebanon army become like the Iraqi army.
Have units of different ‘creeds’ thus Hezbollah becomes the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon in appearance but still Hezbollah in practice with its reputation for showing up the IDF in firefights?
Kim, I think rog might mean me from a discussion unfinished on another thread. But I’m with you. I think he’s misunderstood something I said.
I read early on that the Lebanese army was about 80,000, but poorly equipped and made up mostly of Shia (because the pay isn’t good and it draws mainly from the poor rural Shia areas.)
peter r Paul Rogers thinks that Israel is losing:
Israel losing? From what I have seen it seems that everyone won! What a great war (expects perhaps if you live in Southern Lebanon).
I’ll take this opportunity to make a confession.
I was way too gung-ho about Israel attacking Hezbollah on an earlier thread. I didn’t envisage that Israel would be so reckless and indifferent to human life. I accept that Israel has every right to attempt to destroy the Hezbollah terrorists but it could have conducted this military operation in a way that wouldn’t have caused so many civilian casaulities.
Ok, my conscience is now clear. My penance will be 24 hour alcohol abstinence.
Ah, so now we know that Steve Munn is actually Jack Strocchi in drag. It’s too bloody easy to say you wuz wrong after a thousand have died, Steve. Apology not accepted. And you know why? Because in 6 months time you will support an attack on Iran.
Sheesh, WBB.
Way to negatively reinforce what seemed to be a completely honest and heartfelt bit of contrition.
Yeah, I might have said something about the IDF along those lines but I’m not going to now and leave myself open for a cruel rebuff.
Push the Tehran button, Igor.
Nuh, FDB. I’ve seen too many ppl do this back-flip since the slaughter in Iraq. Their hindsight is nothing more than being able to recognise the bleeding obvious.
It’s not be valued in any way. Next war that comes along – these types start getting St Vitus’ jitters as soon as the drumbeat starts up.
They can stay far outside my tent until they succesfully demonstrate that they can oppose a murderous and stupid war before it starts.
Ok wbb, you obviously possess a wisdom and decency that is beyond me.
Now please tell us what your recipe is for ending the 2,000 plus years of conflict in ME without a further drop of blood being shed. Imagine you are in the shoes of Israeli PM Olmert. What would be your approach? Let us all here at LP share in your bountiful wisdom.
No human can entirely escape perceiving of their lives as potentially nasty, solitary, brutish and short.
The more insecure they are the more they are likely to subscribe to programs that promise improvement in the human condition, but that involve making the lives of others more nasty, more solitary, more brutish and shorter than their own.
When we invest our identity in such programs, suffering is mandatory.
The solution lies in our hearts.
I’m with FDB, wbb.
I appreciate your acknowledgement of your changed opinion, Steve. More of us could do with emulating you in this where and when apropriate.
A bit of grace wouldn’t go astray WBB. It’s not easy to publically admit that you’re wrong. I should know…
I would agee with steve except I don’t see what else Israel could have done in the circumstances. Shimon Peres probably knows, but he ain’t sayin’. Rumour has it he was the only member of the Israeli Cabinet who opposed the initial strikes.
The Lebanese Army is a joke. It hasn’t been able to defend the sovereignty of Lebanon against anyone, including allowing Hezbollah to exist and drag Lebanon into the pile of rubble it now is.
Israel did not achieve it’s stated military aim of destroying Hezbollah. Look up Principles of War on Wikipedia and ask yourself how the Israelies matched up. Very poorly. I reckon I could knock off a 2,000 word essay tonight on their failings. I can see why the brass leading the push got the chop after week one.
Always fight at a time and place of your own choosing. Suprise the enemy and use absolute maximum force as early as possible in order to break the enemy’s will.
I am an aethiest gentile zionist and fully support Israel in its’ actions against Hezbollah. Unfortunately the Israelies have once again proven themselves to be a sencond rate force, with first rate equipment fighting a third rate enemy (who has first rate anti-tank missiles).
Well, the other big losers were lebanese citizens, of course – which only makes the IDF look worse.
Hezbollahs busy rubbing salt in too – people are signing on for the provision of Hezbollah emergency aid and shelter programs all over southern Lebanon. Business as usual, it seems.
The US was a useless third wheel throughout. Rice made a few incomprehensible statements, delayed the ceasefire until they worked out it wasnt getting Israel any closer to redeeming the whole disaster. Id wager no one is actually going to disarm Hezbollah – least of all the Lebanese defence force. Its just a bit of face saving rhetoric.
My main concern is wounded pride on the part of US and Israel. I do hope that doesnt lead to any stupid, preemptory action elsewhere in the region.
Rob sez:
“I would agee with steve except I don’t see what else Israel could have done in the circumstances. ”
Israel could have sent in large numbers of foot soldiers. According to many media reports they didn’t do so because they were woriied about their own casualities. I don’t think that is good enough. Sacrificing 10 foreign civilians to save 1 of your own soldier’s lives is unethical by any human definition.
Lefty E, you smarmy old buzzard, what do you think Israel should be doing to stop Hezbollah lobbing missiles into its territory day in, day out? Compulsory attendance at one of your hypnotically boring tutorials perhaps?
“This pretend war was fought for the hearts and minds of Muslims throughout the Middle East. Hezbollah (and Iran) achieved most of these objectives.
That is why Hezbollah won.”
Hezbollah already had those hearts and minds and a lot more besides in Southern Lebanon, from which to attack Israel. If Israel was not to accept the continual acts of war that started this conflict(rocket attacks and cross border incursions) then it only had one choice to avoid death by a thousand cuts. Make the cheer squads and supporters of Hezbollah pay the same price Hezbollah had in store for Israelis. It is rubbish to suggest Israel believed it could completely destroy Hez, because it had withdrawn from South Leb once before. All it could do was make Hez ruler of the rubble, instead of the comfortable mafia they had become, with a warning the same would occur again if Israel is attacked. As for Israel punishing Hez with less civilian casualties, that is leafy suburban, rainbow dreaming. Israel knows who it is at war with and who we will be soon. Israel has cleared the decks of the big stick Tehran has been waving, in order to continue its nuclear ambitions. Iran is the next cab off the rank now and probably Syria too if it so much as blinks in our direction while Iran is being dealt with. The casualties in south Leb will become as commonplace as the road toll compared to where the West is going with Islam soon. As for placing UN troops between Hez and the Israelis, have you noticed how everyone from Kofi down thinks it’s a spiffing good idea, as long as their troops are not involved. Old Europe is ducking for cover as fast as it can here. The French to lead the peace keepers, I ask you!
As for Iraq (and Afghanistan) it has answered the $64000 question about ME muslims once and for all. We know exactly where they’re at and no more mr nice guys. So it’s desist or shock and awe for Iran. In that we are all Israelis now.(present company excluded obviously)
I think that Israel has clearly defeated Hezbollah with about the same decisive finitude and propriety which has characterised the Coalition of the Willing’s victory in Iraq.
I’m sure the various politicians and soldiers will sort it all out in the end. War solves everything, dunnit?
Just an honest meeting of the mafia’s capos
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=8255
Look into my eyes …
Erm, gee, tough question Steve – since the IDF managed to increase the number of daily missiles flying over the border from 2, to around 200, its hard to see it as an exercise in “stopping” missiles; so maybe rephrase and get back to me in my consultation hours.
Suffice to say, the method they chose didn’t really work, did it?
Maybe they could pissing all over Arab rights to self-determination, see if that works better on the missile reduction front.
Although the IDF may have killed Hezbollah fighters in the ratio of 10:1 to IDF soldiers, I agree that IF Lebanese hearts and minds incline more fondly towards Hezbollah, the IDF has certainly not won. What is not clear is whether this is so.
In the earliest days of this latest conflict, most reporters were at pains to differentiate between the Lebanese Government, Leb civilians – and Hezbollah. As the days progressed, it became evident (reportedly) that in fact many of the Lebanese supported Hezbollah even before the war, as evidenced by living shoulder to shoulder with them, the prancing in the streets with Hezbollah flags etc etc, and the evasivenes of the Leb PM, and whoever that Leb official was interviewed here on Lateline. Someone here at LP cited a figure of 83% support for Hezbollah in Lebanon. I don’t know of that figure is true, let’s stipulate that it is for the present.
My point is this, if support for Hezbollah in Lebanon was at such high levels before and during this latest skirmish, how can even an increase in support be that bad for Israel? To paraphrase one Jew “will Hezbollah kill them deader now?”
On the other side of the ledger, Israel has bought some time, and hopefully got the UN involved in a serious way to keep Hezbollah away from the border. And who knows, maybe support for Hezbollah will actually fall in Lebanon. Notice how quickly displaced people are returning to their homes in southern Lebanon. Doesn’t the apparent eagerness to return while the IDF is in effective occupation seem strange to anyone else? Might it be that the civilian hatred of the IDF is over estimated?
http://cryptogon.com/
Lefty E sez:
“Erm, gee, tough question Steve – since the IDF managed to increase the number of daily missiles flying over the border from 2, to around 200….”
So the vile uppity Jew should have been thankful for his two missiles a day and done nothing (other than beg forgiveness for killing the son of God).
Yep, the academic Left sure is underrated.
“Citing an unnamed Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of the Israeli and US governments”
Must be true then, Silkworm
“Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah”
This is probable. Contingency plans are made by most states, most of the time.
They’re blinking
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,20146786-401,00.html?from=public_rss
Just pointing out the bleeding obvious Steve: military solutions in the Middle East are going nowhere.
Hardly a surprise, since they never work against a nationalist militia with a civilian support base -Northern Ireland, Iraq, East Timor etc etc.
Israel could try politcal solutions to all its problems. What is it you find so hard to udnerstand about that? And havent you noticed that Israel doesnt exactly respect local borders either?
Head of the Army, What a Head of the Army:
This is from the man about whom ppl berate me for not extending the hand of reconciliation. He’s rabid. This characterisarion of LE’s position is tawdry. (Even on a blog.)
Israel lost?
Prior to the war Hez was classed as a terrorist organisation. If they dont mend their ways, stop fighting and disarm then there every reason to have them reclassified.
Plus Israel now has the UN on the hot seat, if the UN cant enforce their resolution they will have lost the confidence of the world.
Correction, was not classed as a terrorist org..