An open thread where you can, at your weekend leisure, discuss whatever you like.
Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas
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Is it possible that I am frist at last?
Not just possible, Dr Cat, but verily confirmed!
Bugger. Curse going out for a mate’s birthday drinks.
Is it just me, or is it getting a bit tame and quiet hereabouts?
Actually, Rob, I’ve quite enjoyed stoush free and witty discussion over the last few days.
I’ll be invoking Spike this weekend Rob. hang around.
Fair enough. My cat and I will go back to watching TV.
Stuff Spike, Shaun. Bring back Drusilla!
<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/Characters/Drusilla.jpg"
Wrong Spike Kim (though Drusilla was a psychotic vampire babe).
<img src="http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/10/14/spike_narrowweb__200x277,0.jpg"
Oh that Spike, Shaun.
Still, I’m taking your comment as an endorsement of the Bring Back Drusilla campaign!
<img src="http://perso.orange.fr/leglatin/drusilla/drusilla.jpg"
I didnt know there was such a campaign. I’m in.
Though what about Darla?
<img src="http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/buffy/angel/images/340/darla.jpg"
Too blonde, Shaun, to be really scary, IMHO.
She was totally bad. Who was it that taught Angelus to be evil?
I give you Ingrid Pitt (well not evil but every Hammer fan loves her)
<img src="http://www.einsiders.com/features/interviews/images/Ingrid1.jpg"
Here’s a slice of life for y’all.
“Is it just me, or is it getting a bit tame and quiet hereabouts?”
You’re all cunts.
63% of Israelis want Olmert to resign. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200608/s1724411.htm
Israel admits that nobody is in a position to disarm Hezbollah.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/disarming-hezbollah-put-on-hold/2006/08/25/1156012740570.html
Oh, Lord, Lefty E, what was it all for? All that death and destruction and suffering?
Is the antipodean army of doom following what Israelis are now thinking?
Dunno, Kimski. Probably muttering some hyperbolic “cease to exist” rubbish in a dank, medicated corner somewhere.
But Hezbollah must be destroyed! Oh.
I quite liked Slate’s take on things. Writing about this week’s presidential press conference called to announce a $230m aid package to Lebanon, correspondent Fred Kaplan neatly pointed out that “but it’s still way below the $1 billion or more than Iran is shoveling to Hezbollah, which is using the money to rebuild Lebanon’s bombed-out neighborhoods—and to take credit for the assistance.”
What is it about politicians who repeatedly fall for the siren call of “it’s OK, we can take them out with a few airstrikes.”
Nobody knows nuthin’ I tells ya.
Of course what Olmert really should have done is hire a bunch of ninjas – bearing in mind the twelve month waiting period:
[link]
I dunno if it’s the moon (planet? satellite? I’m sooo confused!) or the pix of girl vampires, or all this chat about ID; but I’ve got *this* stuck in my head…
Ladies & gents, the *original* Intelligent Designer. Hit it!
I was working in the lab
Late one night
When my eyes beheld an eerie sight
For my monster from his slab
Began to rise,
And suddenly, to my surprise –
HE DID THE MASH!
He did the Monster Mash.
THE MONSTER MASH!
It was a graveyard smash.
HE DID THE MASH!
He caught on in a flash,
HE DID THE MASH!
He did the Monster Mash.
From my laboratory in the Castle East,
To the master bedroom where the vampyres feast,
The ghouls all crept from their humble abodes,
To get a jolt from my electrodes.
THEY DID THE MASH!
They did the Monster Mash.
THE MONSTER MASH!
It was a graveyard smash.
THEY DID THE MASH!
It caught on in a flash.
THEY DID THE MASH!
They did the Monster Mash.
The zombies were having fun.
The party had just begun.
The guests included the Wolf Man,
Draculya and his son.
The scene was rocking, all were digging the sounds
Of Igor on chains, backed by his baying hounds.
The Koffin Klangers were about to arrive,
With their vocal group: the Crypt-Kicka Five.
THEY PLAYED THE MASH!
They played the Monster Mash.
THE MONSTER MASH!
It was a graveyard smash.
THEY PLAYED THE MASH!
It caught on in a flash.
THEY PLAYED THE MASH!
They played the Monster Mash.
Out from his coffin Drac’s voice did ring,
Seems he was troubled by just one thing.
Opened the lid, and shook his fist,
And said: “Vatever happened to ze Transylvania Tvist?”
IT’S NOW THE MASH!
It’s now the Monster Mash,
THE MONSTER MASH!
And it’s a graveyard smash.
IT’S NOW THE MASH!
It caught on in a flash.
IT’S NOW THE MASH!
It’s now the Monster Mash.
Now everything’s cool, Drac’s a part of the band,
And my Monster Mash is the hit of the land.
For you, the living, this Mash was meant, too:
When you get to my door, tell them
*Boris sent you*!!
THEN YOU CAN MASH!
Then you can Monster Mash.
THEN YOU CAN MASH!
And do my graveyard smash.
THEN YOU CAN MASH!
You’ll catch on in a flash.
THEN YOU CAN MASH!
Then you can Monster Mash.
Woooo… Monster Mash, wah-oooo,
Monster Mash, wah-oooo,
(ad lib monster noises and fade)
j-p-z:
Your attempt to get yourself a Nobel Prize for Literature with that poetry/song has been unmasked…..
During the week, in a “Clockwork Orange”-like scenario, I was forced to listen to “The Best Of Chris de Burgh” (surely the ne plus ultra of oxymorons). The horror…
Rob, it’s true, I’ve heard that comparative appreciation of dogs is a time-honoured heterosexual courting tradition across the globe. Can’t see the point in it, myself, as the canines don’t actually have a social disinhibitive effect, and dog psychology certainly doesn’t lend itself to allowing owners to socialise with other humans.
“Oi! Human! I’ve just eaten your mobile phone charger and shat on your pillow! So where’s my walk, then?
Look, dog people, if your pets are so important that you feel you’ve no identity separate from your companion animal, take photographs of them and show them to prospective partners as you buy them a drink, which unlike the presence of the actual dog, will make you seem less ugly, needy, and socially misfit. Other dog-owners will swoon at your poorly-composed snaps, and non-owners will back slowly away—I believe that’s the intended screening function of the process, right? Right?
More of a cat being, I am. Black, for preference.
Druscilla was one scary lady. Fred from Angel… now there’s a lady!
Lefty E: “Israel admits that nobody is in a position to disarm Hezbollah.”
Israel “admits” nothing of the sort.
Jerusalem has been lumbered with a peace-keeping “force” – heh – “led” by France.
Digression: military leader Jacques Chirac: “I don’t know who mentioned this figure [15,000 troops] but it doesn’t really make sense. So what is the right number, 4,000, 5,000 or 6,000? I don’t know.”
Anyway, Israel’s own objective is to ensure that Hezbollah – the terrorist organisation with the exterminationist agenda (supported by many Western adolescents) – receives as few new arms as possible. This allows Israel to strike against all attempts to illegally supply arms to terrorists.
And Hezbollah’s “victory” is now falling apart.
Nasrallah is now under attack from Shiite writers, theologians, former allies in Lebanon and he is now seen throughout the Arab world as an uppity and vain yes-man for the Persians.
The Egyptians are now ratcheting up the criticism of Syria’s role in Lebanon – “…a weighty record of Lebanese massacres…”
Israel got an international force to make some attempt to enforce 1559, Siniora is now talking a peace deal with Israel (unthinkable to an Islamist-blackmailed Beirut just weeks ago) and Hezbollah has exposed Iranian interventionism for the pan-regional threat it really is.
Nasrallah lost 500 “soldiers” and expended most of his missiles. Meanwhile, the Qana “massacre” and the ambulance “atrocity” myths have been destroyed – as has the notion of liberal media impartiality. Iran’s largesse to Hezbollah in Lebanon has also caused public protests in Iran itself – an extraordinary development.
How determined the Israelis remain is evidenced by the fact that so many of them judge Olmert harshly for not being even more ruthless.
Israel won.
My earlier comment published OK and without a moderation flag for spam. Kim, can you see if it’s in a cue or whatever?
Yes, and its downright rude of the Israelis not to agree with your assessment CL.
You know that’s not true, CL. The only person doubting the claim is some anonymous blogger. Not even the IDF is denying it. But I guess you know best.
From Haeretz -
Meanwhile, the Lebanese Red Cross workers reported on Monday that 28 bodies, 19 of them children, were removed from the rubble.
The count is lower than the some 60 bodies reported by news agencies, quoting Lebanese security officials. Survivors say 60 people were in the building at the time of the strike.
So only 19 children were killed then, CL, and that doesn’t warrant a massacre? You’re a deeply morally ill person if thatâs truly what you believe. I doubt that it is, youâre just letting your hatred cloud your better judgement.
As for the Red Cross incident being debunked, once again you’re lying. A far right wing anonymous blogger decided to question the incident, and you and your fellow bed wetters accept it as fact? It’s laughable. Apparently some wingnut sitting in his/her’s grandmother’s basement is more capable than the IDF of ascertaining the legitimacy of the incident. That’s right, the IDF has already taken responsibility for the attack. This from the same IDF that systematically absolves itself of all responsibility. Why? Because the evidence is so strong, that not even they are trying to question the incident.
They don’t agree with your assessment, LE – nor, apparently, do a growing number of Arab and Shiite commentators. The negative figures in Israeli opinion polls reflect the majority’s belief that a more aggressive and sustained campaign should have been waged. They do not reflect scepticism about the war’s justice or its feasibility.
Olmert, in different circumstances – namely, if there weren’t quite so many Lowensteinian moonbats around these days – might actually be praised for the statesmanlike way he didn’t let loose the dogs of total, mass-mobilised war.
The IDF has not said there was a “massacre” at Qana. Alex, as usual, is lying. Qana was the village where Hezbollah launched a multitude of rockets at Israeli civilians. The terrorist organisation was hiding behind Lebonese villagers, in contravention of international law. Israel was entitled to strike against those locations. Only Lowenstein Huggers like lying Alex believe the IDF’s response was not justified.
The ambulance myth has been destroyed and immoral moonbat and overwrought anti-semite Alex doesn’t like it. LOL.
The IDF has said it attacked the house with two missiles, one of which failed to explode. We don’t know what actually happened, and probably never will, but the recovery of the bodies was certainly staged for the media. I wasn’t aware they had admitted to the ambulance incident. Do you have a link for that, Alex?
C.L., yes, when the dust settles and people get over it Olmert may get some credit for not launching a full-scale ground offensive that would have likely cost hundreds of IDF lives. All the same, there seem to have been significant leadership failures at the top of the IDF.
As there are leadership failures in all wars, Rob. The Israeli Cabinet’s ultimate objective was the internationalisation of an untenable situation in southern Lebanon. Nasrallah and Iran walked straight into it and the Israelis got what they wanted. Having demonstrated their carcinogenic effect on, and contempt for, sovereign governance, Hezbollah and Iran are now highly suspect to most governments in the Middle East. Incompetent losers.
C.L.:
Oh dear. A couple of weeks ago, a few of us with some professional experience commented on Larvatus Prodeo about photos of damage, including one of an ambulance …. try looking in the Archive for them ….. Mind you, I’m always ready to admit any errors if anyone can come up with more information ….
What we do know for sure is that Hezbollah used ambulances – their presence, their sirens, their racy drama – to embellish their tightly controlled propaganda packages out of Lebanon. The claim is that a missile launched by the IDF went exactly through the centre of a bright red cross on the roof of one such ambulance, causing no significant damage inside.
Robert Fisk got so caught up in the exciting unreality of the story that the “expert” on the region got his religious symbols mixed up: “Did the pious use the cross as their aiming point?” Er, no.
We’ve also seen ambulances abused by these sort of cowards before. Scepticism is warranted.
CL:
I’ll stick to my initial impression of a chunk of concrete blasted off a nearby building; moreso when you think of where the crossbracing would be in the vehicle roof.
Thanks for that tendentious torrent of twaddle, CL. Its quite made my day to see Neo-Con apologists losing their grip on reality; live to air.
You want to explain that last comment Lefty?
You don’t back up much of what you say DO you?
Put down that ridiculously long cigarette holder and take off that top hat and explain your position a little better.
Have a look at what Amir Taheri has to say about it:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008847
And me:
https://graemebird.wordpress.com/2006/08/25/putting-why-hezbollah-lost-in-the-google/
KIM: “Actually, Rob, I’ve quite enjoyed stoush free and witty discussion over the last few days.”
SHAUN: “I’ll be invoking Spike this weekend … hang around.”
Be careful what you pray for, Shaun. I don’t think I’m going to buy into another of these pointless Israel invasion debates. I’ll just sit back and watch the live blogvideo replay.
Watch the verbs fly! See adjectives misused by oppressive nouns! Mourn as merciless commas are, unleashed, in, bloodthirsty, revenge, by, those, that, would, do, evil STOP
Lefty E: Bat. Ball. Gone Home.
Yes, your stuff’s just not worth it on this one CL. Better things to do.
CL,
You are lying again. The IDF accepted the fact that the Ambulance was destroyed by one of its planes, yet you continue to deny it. Why don’t you accept the word of the IDF? Are you an anti-Semite?
Also, I’m not interested in whether or not the IDF classified the Qana bombing as a massacre or not. I was responding to your ludicrous claim that because only 19 children were killed, it shouldn’t be described as a massacre. What sort of a demon are you?
PS – If you’re going to accuse someone of being an anti-Semite, you should firstly confirm that they’re not a Jew. You see, my Mother’s maiden name is Liebermann, which I’m sure you’ll identify as being a Jewish name. My Grandfather is Polish, and his Brother perished at Belzen.
So CL, if you ever call me an anti-Semite again, I can guarantee you that I’ll find out who you are, come to your house, and crush your pitiful pencil neck with the greatest of pleasure*
* At least I would if I wasn’t a pacifist.
Anal disappearance commencing in 10…9…8…
Shorter Left: Israel’s war was wrong because civilians died. War can only be right when no civilian is harmed. (Note: this principle only applies to wars waged by the US or Israel.)
Shorter Right: Israel rocks! They achieved the great strategic victory of … um … (pause) … (scratch head) … ah yes … apparently making the leader of Hezbollah somewhat less popular in the Arab world!
Left: And pray tell, what did the war do for Israel’s popularity?
Right: Anti-semite!
Short Paulus: If the “internationalisation” of the conflict leads to a cessation of violence and a secure northern border for Israel; if the French/UN troops are actually willing to fight Hezbollah if necessary; if the UN can somehow make Iran and Syria stop the flow of arms; if the IDF eventually get their men back — then the war may be counted a success from the Israeli point of view. Many “ifs”. We shall wait and see.
The IDF accepted the fact that the Ambulance was destroyed by one of its planes, yet you continue to deny it.
I would really love a link to this if possible. I did a search on their official website:
for ambulance but found nothing relevant. I’ve also looked elsewhere and found nothing.
Open the pod-bay door Hal.
Anti-Jewish Alex believes an FA-18 Hornet, or some other warplane flying at supersonic speed, spotted an ambulance and fired a missile at it which then fell neatly on top of the vehicle – causing a Hanna-Barbera round hole and no appreciable damage to the inner cabin.
Alex also believes the moon landing was staged by Karl Rove’s grandfather and that Elvis shares a humble demountable with Jimmy Hoffa on a parcel of land somewhere near either Roswell or Crawford.
I didn’t mention the number of people killed at Qana. Number of victims doesn’t define what a massacre is – intent defines it. Too evilly stupid to know this, Alex thinks Israel knew there were civilians in that building and deliberately killed them. This is a lie – compounded by his lie that the IDF has admitted to having committed such a crime. It hasn’t. The crime was committed by Hezbollah which intentionally jeopardised the lives of civilians. Alex won’t condemn Hezbollah because he is a left-wing coward. (Oh I’m sorry, he’s a “pacifist” who refuses to condemn terrorists).
Finally, Alex’s physical threat reminds me of how Dennis Healey described an attack by Geoffrey Howe: “…like being savaged by a dead sheep.”
Shorter Paulus: this fence is really hard on my buttocks.
I’m such a cheap hypocrite. Meh.
After having sullied my eyes and looked at one of Boltas recent columns [link] I think dear Andrew may well be in contention for the Terry Lane ‘I believed what I wanted to believe’ award.
In a fairly juvenile sideswipe at George Negus, Bolt in Friday’s column tagged SBS talks to its friends produced a ‘map’ of the IDF bombings of Beirut, naming two sources for the map: The International Umbrella for Volunteer Israeli Advocay Groups, and the Zionism and Israel Information Center. The sites sourced the original source of the map as being from the IDF.
Now, the obvious attempt of the graphic cited by Bolta is to suggest that the IDF’s bombing of Beirut was really a tad tiny. In total area no more than a racecourse or two. Numerous posters on the blog have drawn the obvious conclusion that the source is partisan.
And that’s the point. Is Bolt’s graphic really sourced from the IDF? Doesn’t look like it, unless it’s from the International Diabetics Federation.
Go to the IDF website IDF website: Type ‘map’, ‘beirut’, ‘lebanon’, or ‘bombing’ into the search engine and the closest you’ll get to a result for Boltas graphic is – nothing.
So is this ‘map’ from the IDF? Don’t think so. In the absence of any official source, I’d say “fake.”
But notwithstanding that, what about the bombsites in the rest of Lebanon? The only map I’ve been able to find is here.
It’s from an equally partisan source, has some fairly stratling graphics, and cites its provenance as some shodowy ‘Internal Security Forces’ but at least purports to show the entirety of the IDF aerial campaign over Lebanon.
So here’s the challenge:
a) Prove that Bolt’s original map is, in fact sourced from the IDF, and
b) Demonstrate that the strike rates and locations on the second map are wrong.
Otherwise, hello Andrew Bolt: the Hun’s Terry Lane.
You didn’t look very hard, did you Peter?
How about here –
There has also been reports that at least 10 other Ambulances have been targeted also.
I’ve noticed that the wingnutosphere has gone nuts over the Zombie blogger’s alleged ‘debunking’ of the attack. Even Fox news is linking to the site now. How sad. Let’s not forget that that this Zombie person isn’t reporting from the front line, he’s just a chickenhawk jacking off in front of his monitor.
Oh for godssake:
Alex: The pix of the ambulance ‘hit by missile’ are pretty obviously a crock.
CL: Israel has never denied firing at ambulanes. They’ve got a pretty smart media machine. If the story was fake why is it up to bloggers like yourself to trawl through the traces? IDF should just issue a straight denial. They haven’t done so, so draw your own conclusions.
IDF information removed by Alex from his first quote:
Also censored by Alex:
As Alex’s better – Zombie – points out, Israel will often apologise for any alleged incident in the immediate aftermath, and then investigate further. This is what happened, for example, after the “Gaza Beach Bombing” which turned out to be a local incident deliberately stage-managed into an anti-Israel hoax.
The “impartial” witness:
Here is the ambulance damaged by “a big fire.” I’ve done more damage dropping my Zippo.
What Alex ignored from his second link:
Nice reutering of the story, Alex!
Had a wonderful birthday lunch for a friend today at the home of his Lebanese parents.
The food was amazing (especially the labne and shish).
My friend’s aunt and uncle were among those evacuated from Lebanon by ship after the bombing started and reckoned they had a wonderful time – they came home via Germany. The evacuees were out up in five-star hotels, all meals provided, but the downside is that apparently over 200 bathtowels were stolen while the evacuees were at the hotel.
Extraordinary!
The rock that fell on
the ambulanceAlex’s head. Gee I want to meet the Israeli pilot who can insert a sunroof without blowing out the windows.Hezbollah’s actions which started the conflict were a war crime under international law.
Every Katyusha – an inherently indiscriminate weapon – launched by Hezbollah was a war crime under international law.
Using civilians as human shields is a war crime under international law. On every single day of the war, Hezbollah violated Article 58 of Protocol 1, which requires parties to a conflict to “avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas” . Hezbollah located its command outposts, weapons, ammo and rocket launchers in residential areas – including in and under schools, hospitals and mosques. It used civilian cars, trucks, ambulances to transport weapons and personnel. A Katushya rocket won’t even take up the back seat of a car.
Israel is within its rights to fire on Hezbollah in these areas under Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention: “The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.” My regret is that they didn’t go in harder. My hope is that a few in the region have woken up even if half the world is asleep. My guess too is that Israel has documented every single target, right down to the last ambulance. After all they are used to having to defend themselves against Hezzbollywood and Pallywood, massacres at Qana and moonbats.
Well there you are milly. 200 bathtowels. I. am. shocked.
Were they those nice, white, warm, 5-star fluffy ones? I can offer money you know..
lol, keeler. I think it’s an amazing aside to the evacuation. Also, the evacuees got bonus sightseeing tours while the ship docked, which I think is rather cool.
This argument about ambulances seems a little esoteric while Lebanese kids are picking up unexploded IDF cluster bombs.
Dropping those in civilian areas is a war crime. And beneath contempt.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/israeli-cluster-bomb-probe/2006/08/26/1156012780706.html
Lefty, unlike Katyushas, cluster bombs are legitimate weapons under international law. Hezbollah hid behind civilians, that is a war crime. Under international law, that made that area a legitimate target. The IAF had the right to respond. It was a war, not the local kindergarten play.
You are just swallowing the guided tour of Lebanon by Hezbollah. Propagandallah, more propagandallah and even more propagandallah.
Courtesy of Reuters of course.
All that unexploded excitement
Lefty E forgot about this. What a surprise:
Dropping those in civilian areas is a war crime. And beneath contempt.
Hezbollah terrorists operated from civilian areas – itself a war crime – and were licitly targeted using a weapon that is not unlawful. Lebonese families concerned about un-exploded ordinance can thank Sheik Nasrallah & company. As Jan Egeland argued, they are “proud” of the fact that women and children took their hits for them.
Also known as ordnance.
Thanks Saint, while your reflex ideological defences of Israel are somewhat more credible than CL’s (at least your not pretending the IDF won something), you’re still just swallowing IDF propanganda on most fronts.
Here’s your “excitement” (sic):
” …the toll from cluster bombs to 11 killed and 43 wounded, including several children, since the ceasefire began on August 14″
Cluster bombs are, I think you’ll agree, inherently indiscriminate (which admittedly fits the IDF MO in Lebanon), and that’s a war crime in anyone’s book. They’re not banned, unfortunately; but they should be.
You might want to think about this: Nuclear weapons aren’t “banned” per se either.
Saint! Imagine finding you here.
Look , I must say that after vistiting the puppies stoushing at
adelaideBankstown recently, I think you’re becoming a bit obsessive. Anyway, I thought you were now a Cultastican which means, errr, nothing really.Despite my earlier comments, I’m heartily sick of this terrorism/Israel/Hezbollah/abortion/stemcell stuff.
All I want to see is 1940′s cartoon characters with giant stogies stuffed in their gobs.
Bedtime. Night All.
From the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/25/world/middleeast/25sunnis.html
Cluster munitions are no more indiscriminate than any other explosive ordnance.
Atomic bombs are no more indiscriminate than any other explosive ordinance.
(Hey this is fun, J F Beck.)
“Reflex ideological defences of Israel?” Pray tell me what does that mean?
Cluster munitions are especially suited to the suppression of artillery fire, or in the case of Hezbullah, rocket fire.
Why, exactly, should they not be used?
Bring back Drusilla!
<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/Drusilla.jpg"
Im happy to condemn that absolutely, CL. And you, on IDF cluster bombs? Or are you going to play the moral relativist again?
Incidentally, what was that nonsense you were going on about the peacekeeping force, above? Cant be bothered scrolling up again, but struth, the EU is sending 7000. The US and UK arent sending any. Why? because they dont blue helmet – mind you, they’re more than happy to demand others do it. Just demanded 17,000 more in Darfur. And they couldnt wait for the UN to come in to try to clean up their COW turds in Iraq. What a pack of hypocrites! I’ll tell you why the UN isnt more effective. Because of the US and the UK.
But you’re having a go at the French? Despite their natural objections to cleaning up some proxy war between the US and Iran, which they dont need a bar of, they’re actually sending some soldiers. Stunning relativism.
Yes, those of us who were fans of Robert Grave’s I, Claudius and Suetonius’ Twelve Caesars feel that Drusilla got a very bad deal from the Emporer Caligula!
There has been a longstanding international push to ban cluster bombs because of the indiscrimate damage they cause – and the horrific injuries they cause to civilians. My understanding is that Clinton kyboshed it.
As an aside, what really pisses me off is when people get all excited about these fabulous “RMA” weapons! There’s some very sick cheerleading about war in this decade…
Michael Totten
Lefty, I know nuclear weapons aren’t banned. Because I have already blogged about that too. And I also know the politics of cluster bombs. The trouble for you is, heinous or not, Israel did not break international law by using cluster bombs. They are legitimate weapons. Katyushas are not, EVEN IF THEY WERE FIRED AT MILITARY TARGETS. Never mind that none of them were.
Whether Hezbollah or Israel ‘won’ this particular battle is somewhat academic. However the overriding issue is becoming increasingly clearer, particularly for those closer to the problem http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=4DFR5LHIYU0FNQFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2006/08/25/nislam25.xml
Probably explains why the Nabakovs of this world are getting increasingly grumpy that their view of the world is slipping from reality.
As for the ‘massacre’ of 19 civilians, I seem to recall that at the same time as Hezbollah and Israel were slugging it out, a SriLankan govt attack on Tamil rebel positions killed 51 Tamil schoolchildren with nary a murmur from Kofi Annan and the usual suspects like Amnesty International, etc. Some ‘massacres’ are more equal than others as usual.
http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/hc-israel0826.artaug26,0,4377394.story?coll=hc-headlines-nationworld
This is the closest the US will get to investigating war crimes committed by Israel in this recent war.
Meanwhile,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5276626.stm
What difference does it make if it’s one round or 100 rounds saturating an area with shrapnel? The injuries and fatalities will be the same.
Lefty E, you’re the moral relativist with the prejudice reflex. You resent criticising a terrorist organisation but you automatically, gleefully and sullenly want to believe anything negative about the Little Satan.
In the last day or so (after my initial comment) Chirac panicked and announced he’d send more French “soldiers” to reinforce the Pastry Corp members he sent over in those inflatable dingies. Given that they’ll be wearing the UN helmet, lets hope they don’t go about raping everyone.
And Hezbollah’s exterminationist agenda at the bidding of Iran is America’s fault is it?
Stunningly weird argument.
The UN force for Lebanon is nowhere near as multilateralist as the Coalition put together by Bush.
You could even say the UN has failed John Kerry’s international test!
Yeah Silkworm we know – I’ve been watching that report circulate around the globe since the wee hours of this morning. And I think my support of AI is about to die too – it probably would have a while ago if I didn’t know a few decent people left in there before the loons took over.
Stunning isn’t it, just how many are condemning Hezbollah’s war crimes?? No let’s put the boot into Israel for those unexploded cluster bombs they used while DEFENDING their civilians. Why is that? If not the unmentionable word, what then? (And hey if Hezbollah wants to pretend it’s a mini state then why let civilians back before the area is cleared? Bang Hezbollah fails again to protect civilians. Of course. It’s a TERRORIST orgnasation.)
If there are moral relativists on this thread, CL is not one of them.
Can’t you mob think of something more pleasant and enjoyable to be talking about after 1am on a Saturday night? Just askin…
I mean, the issues are serious, but don’t you ever give it a rest? And just enjoy life?
And I am shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you that no-one has noticed that this is the 69th episode of Saturday Salon.
Just sayin’.
Precisely, Anna.
That should be good for a more entertaining conversation than Clash of Civilisations round #69.
Christine, I can’t be a Cultasian while I am enslaved to another master. Which is why I am busily trying to bribe, extort, get Rollsy to seduce me with big bucks or something. Bwahahahaha.
OK, Mark. I’ll pluck some Saturdayesque things out of obscurity. Lets see…
My injured leg has recovered, allowing me to resume my uncompetitively timed triathlons (which I did today – yay).
Having put in a lot of desk/paperwork time this past fortnight or so, I’ve listened to a lot of radio and have decided I like Pink’s new song – Who Knew.
Is this disturbing?
And where IS Christopher these days? What have you DONE with him?
Well, thanks, C.L.
I have Pink’s new cd. Am yet to listen to it.
If it inspires me also to resume my interrupted (for about the last two decades…) running career, perhaps I should!
cs? who knows? Putting the Floyd back into the Pink cds?
Well, as Im the only one on the thread to condemn both Hezbollah and IDF attacks on civilians, Saint, I know you arent referring to me.
What about you guys? Still can bring yourself to condemn the deaths of 900 plus civilians, because “Israel was defending civilians”?
Do you find youself able to condemn Hezbollah’s use of ball bearings, but not IDFs use of cluster bombs? These may be signs of moral relativism. See a philosopher if pain persists.
(And I wont even go into the contradictory moral/historical cesspit of CL denying massacres in order to be ‘pro-Israel’)
Night.
Well, we tried, Anna.
If only clashing civilisations could just BE NICE TO ONE ANOTHER…
I tried. I just dedicated a post to Christine on my blog.
And yes Bob Dylan’s new album was out today (at least here, one more week in the US) Which probably explains where Christopher’s whereabouts. He’s out getting religion.
Former Bardot singer Tiffani Wood has reinvented herself as a burlesque girl and has covered The Divinyls’ “I Touch Myself”. Are those two things compatible?
http://www.tiffaniwood.com/site/newsroom.html
Bob has called modern recording “atrocious.” Has a go at himself too.
Out with Bob, in with Tiffani!
Formerly, Tiffany btw.
http://www.tiffaniwood.com/site/tiffani_bio.html
Whatever happened to:
http://www.rockymusic.org/lyrics/rocky-horror.html#super
Wooo… Monster Mash, wah-ooo…
Monster Mash, wah-ooo, Monster Mash, wah-oooo…
(key change)
“Well, as Im the only one on the thread to condemn both Hezbollah and IDF attacks on civilians, Saint, I know you arent referring to me.”
The reason that you are the only one to do this is that you are the only one prepared to lie about it.
When did the IDF target civilians. Tell us about this incident.
*gnaws arm off*
Cripes, thats one ugly Bird to wake up to. She looked like such an intelligent RWDB after bottle two of Merlot last night.
Incidentally, Mac batteries are blowing up now too.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/biztech/apple-recalls-laptop-batteries/2006/08/25/1156012702412.html
I’m rejoining this late, but the map Christine referred to was originally posted at Vital Perspective, a pro-Israeli site. On one of their comments threads I asked where it and a subsequent map had come from, and they wouldn’t say, just ‘trusted experts, can’t say more’, or some such. VP seems to have good sources on IDF activities and I suspect they got the map, or the info on which it’s based, from Israeli military intelligence. Which would explain why it’s not on the IDF’s website (it would be classified).
Golly.
A lot of folks posting in this thread are demanding that a lot of other folks condemn outright some stuff that some warring folks are alleged to have done to other folks.
I’m really amazed to see that so many disputant folks are keen to cajole so many other folks to say stuff they don’t really believe.
However, and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not sure the survivors in whatever conflicts that these folks are discussing will be particularly heartened by the enormous concern about what mere spectators of these events think.
Here are the material facts:
1. The IDF says it doesn’t target civilians, yet deploys anti-personnel devices in civilian areas. This is reckless at best and cynical at worst. Yet the challenges of fighting guerrilla war necessitate such strategies.
2. Hezbollah says it doesn’t use civilians as shields, yet they fight rockets, etc., from hospital roofs, etc. This is reckless at best and cynical at worst. Yet the challenges of fighting guerrilla war necessitate such strategies.
3. The IDF hoped that their strategy of area bombing, etc., would have the effect of turning parts of the Lebanese civilian population against Hezbollah. Indicative of the poor nature of Israeli intelligence and/or poor decision-making, Israel has been proven wrong in that hope.
4. Hezbollah gambled that any Israeli targetting of civilian areas would have the effect of strengthening their support in Lebanon. Indicative of the depth of understanding of the Lebanese people, Hezbollah has been proven correct in that gamble.
Now, many of our disputing folks in this thread may deplore these facts, and many may applaud these facts. That’s up to them. But what they think about the morality of these events is irrelevant to what the actors in the Lebanese tragi-comedy think and believe.
For those folks who are keen to grandstand morally about other people’s beliefs and actions:
1. Don’t talk about these people. Talk to them. If nothing else, you may learn a bit of humility.
2. And/or try to empathise with the people caught up in these struggles. Realise that your priorities are as mystifying to them as theirs appear to be mystifying to you.
I was struck by the resonances of these two extracts from US Presidential press conferences:
1. Johnson, 17 Nov 1967
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=28555
2. G. W. Bush, 21 Aug 2006
Now it is well known that a few months later Johnson acknowledged the failure of his policy in Vietnam and announced the termination of his political career. Bush, on the other hand, is close to the end of his political career. He had decided that there will be no withdrawal from Iraq during his presidency. Some readers may have played chess against opponents who were one move from suffering a forced mate, and yet refused to make that move. To such people, the humiliation of loss seems worse than the humiliation of acting like an immature idiot.
But that’s not what I want to talk about.
The important issue is how these presidents go about the job of explaining unwelcome reality to the American people.
Johnson insists that, despite appearances, the war in Vietnam was going well, but that the road to victory was longer.
Bush, in a rare and possibly unconscious moment of candour, offers no such assurance. This war in Iraq is now about Bush, his own convictions, his place in history and his determination not to repeat the “mistakes of Vietnam”.
Trouble is, he’s simply prepared to allow some successor to clean up his mess.
Bush really is a spoiled frat boy.
Not only did the US supply Israel with many of the weapons it used to commit war crimes in Lebanon, but also…
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3444
Right Lefty. Trying to hide you terrorism-apologism behind an Apple Computer link.
Don’t hide behind links fella. Evasiveness seems to be your main debating technique.
Your attempt at the leftist-equivalence method has earned you a thread of your own on my site.
http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2006/08/26/lefty-e-the-facist-lying-about-the-idf/
Now are you going to keep running away or do you want to debate me here. Where is it that you are saying that Israel targeted civilians? Where are you claiming that Israel used carpet-bombing on civilians?
“1. The IDF says it doesn’t target civilians, yet deploys anti-personnel devices in civilian areas. This is reckless at best and cynical at worst. Yet the challenges of fighting guerrilla war necessitate such strategies.”
What are you talking about here?
Be more specific.
You say its a fact. You should be able to back that up.
“Not only did the US supply Israel with many of the weapons it used to commit war crimes in Lebanon, but also…”
WHAT!!! war crimes Silkworm??????
You are lying.
What war crimes?
Spit it out!
Silly sausage, CL! I presented the links for you and others to read, so to suggest I was trying to hide the information you highlighted is dishonest. I highlighted the part in which the IDF claimed responsibility for the incident, as a result of this comment claiming such an admission never took place.
Oddly, CL, you then highlight this quote –
So you now agree that Israel bombed the Ambulance?
CL believes that the Israeli’s drop anti-personal munitions into suburban areas with no intention of Killing civilians. I’m not sure heâs being wilfully obtuse, or is just inherently stupid.
CL perhaps thinks that
nucularnuclear weapons dropped on Japan were only targeting military targets? That’s what the propaganda told us.CL also says that I don’t condemn Hizbollah. I condemn Hizbollah outright, yet unlike CL, understand the historic context in which they were created. Hizbollah and Hamas are Israeli creations, and Israel continues to ensure such organisations flourish well into the oblivion we’re all heading towards. That’s not support for these organisations that target civilians in their fight, it’s stating a fact.
So with the apocalypse looming in the rear vision mirror, I present CL with an olive branch and the offer to discuss topics other than the middle east and his school girl crush on the USA.
My interests include –
Flying
Music
Women.
Yours?
Birdy,
If you have a problem with the factuality of this:
You’d be better advised to take it up with CL, J. F. Beck, Saint and other assorted IDF apologists on this thread. They all agree this happened. And they seem to speak your language.
If you have a problem with the factuality of this:
That’s my judgment. It isn’t a fact, though it is a fact that it is my judgment. The validity of this judgment, based as it is on certain facts and certain attitudes, is open to debate, hopefully without too much abuse.
If you have a problem with the factuality of this:
Perhaps you could communicate with the IDF explaining how they could win guerrilla warfare without using weapons such as these. (Don’t hesitate to post a copy of your letter to the IDF on this website, and any reply you may receive.
Best Wishes.
katz,
May I be so bold as to ask if you’re male or female?
Sorry me again.
I want to buy a 250cc motorbike, yet am stuck between the Suzuki VL250K6 and the Yamaha XV250 -
I would like opinions please.
Alex Said:
I highlighted the part in which the IDF claimed responsibility for the incident, as a result of this comment claiming such an admission never took place.
Alex – I suggest you learn to read. Nowhere did I claim such an admission never took place. Read my comment again please. I asked for a link where the IDF claimed responsibility, not for targeting ambulances, but the particular ambulance in question – the one with the hole right through the cross – exactly where a light of some sort normally goes and exactly the same size. I still havent seen any such link, only second hand reports or reports about other ambulances. Please provide a link.
Alex – a question – do you think the ambulance with the hole through the cross was caused by a missile of some sort or was faked?
Alex
Unless you have really short legs, neither.
If it’s your first bike, get a second hand Honda VT250 and don’t worry about the cosmetics becuse it’ll inevitably end up sideways down a road before the year is out.
Yes.
Katz,
Once rockets are fired from “civilian areas’ by Hezbollah all areas in Lebanon where Hezbollah is active are open to legitimate attack.
You are also wrong in describing Hezbollah’s activities as “guerrilla war.”
I’m not sure. Zoe Brain, possibly the only civilised wingnut on the planet, and somewhat of a ballistics expert, has given a well presented case that suggests that the damage is not consistent with a missile attack either on or near the ambulance, even if the bomb didn’t detonate. Incidentally, Zoe’s statements are on Mr Lefty’s site. Unfortunately you’ll have to wade through incomprehensible abuse from Blair’s batwings in order to find her intelligent analysis.
At the moment I’m thinking the damage was more than likely the result of a nearby explosion and the resultant debris falling on the roof. It makes sense that the hole where the siren/vent was would have given way under such circumstances as that is clearly the weakest part of the roof. Also, given that the ambulance was clearly hit by something, I believe that the officers had ever right to believe that a bomb hit them; especially considering the IDF was conducting fierce bombing in the area.
Claims that the presence of rust on the roof proves that the damage is old, are nonsense. I’m currently resorting an old car, and after I sanded the paint away from one of the doors, substantial surface rust appeared within 48 hours.
OK then, male or female?
Birdy, given the hit rate on Lebanese civilians v Hezbollah was roughly 2:1, how about you provide some ‘evidence’ that the IDF was targeting Hezbollah.
Seems to me they factored it militant deaths as a likely proportion of general deaths when carpet bombing civilian areas.
And, of course, Im flattered by your attentions, as always, big guy.
Saint and Silkworm:
Just on CBU (Cluster Bomb Units): The big problem is that they don’t always go bang on impact, especially if it’s into soft mud. [Warning: Helmets on. Warries begin]. Once upon a time ….. as I jumped off a helicopter, I had a sudden desire to compete with the Olympic diving team so I did a triple-mickey with a half-twist and double-somersault …. and landed clear of the unexploded ordnance I spotted after I started jumping out (damn, the Olympics selectors missed my star performance).
Count me in as an enthusiastic supporter of a complete ban on cluster bombs.
Yes, Birdy its called moral universalism. That is, same principles apply to x civilian as to y civilian – validating fairly uncontroversial liberal principles of equality. They’re not particularly leftist; although its true fascists and racists wont generally subscribe to this broad school.
The question is – how do you defend your moral particularism (ie this innocent civilian is worth more than that one)? It seems to be to have an inevitable corollary in moral relativism (ie there are no universals like ‘the innocent should not be killed’. Sometimes its ok eg when every third or fourth one in a cluster bomb zone is Hezbollah).
And Birdy, if you want to badger people, for crissakes come up with something more stimulating than “you are lying”. Its dull work for the rest of us.
Alex: “…I want to buy a 250cc motorbike, yet am stuck between the Suzuki VL250K6 and the Yamaha XV250 – I would like opinions please.”
Motorbikes get people killed. I wish they didn’t, but they do. (Unhappily, I am in a position to know.) People in the medical community call them ‘donor-cycles.’ They are not wrong about this. Motorbikes are vectors of unnecessary death and serious injury, esp. for young people. Plain and simple.
You want my opinion? Get yourself a nice six-cylinder Audi. They’re well-built and they’re a fun drive, as a quick review of the car chases in the movie “Ronin” will confirm.
To your health!
Ah, “Ronin” – now there’s a topic to tempt Civilisational Clashers out of their caves for a real Salon conversation!
De Niro, Reno, Bean… well, maybe leave out the Bean, although he was pretty good as the slightly psychotic coward. I always thought the last bit (car chases etc) was rather conventional, but the first bit (all “In From the Cold” old-school spy stuff, everyone making like stone-face pro’s) is one of my favorite sequences in film.
Point taken, mom J_P_Z.
As a proud member of the Community Services, I’m afraid an Audi is out of the question though.
I am restoring one of these beauties though.
Graham – you can’t condemn Israel for a war crime if:
a) they chose a target, which may have been in a civilian area, which is perfectly legitimate under international law BECAUSE of the presence of enemy personnel or weaponry in that area and/or
b) they used ordnance (is that the right word) which is perfectly legal under international law against enemy combatants and/or equipment.
You can hate cluster bombs all you like. You can hate the aftermath of unexploded ordnance all you like. In fact, you can hate that some ordnance guidance systems fail from time to time even in the world’s most technologically advanced army. But unless anyone can show Israel was SPECIFICALLY targetting civilians i.e. there were no military objectives in the area, then is no war crime. At this point, I cannot even find enough information to warrant the allegation against Israel. And despite the OBVIOUS evidence of even 1000 Katyushas fired on Israel, (never mind that Hezbollah has been firing on Israel for SIX years and has raided their territory and killed other Israelis during that time as well), it seems no one is yelling for the Hezbollah leadership to be sought out and brought to justice for war crimes.
Said as someone whose mother is became a war orphan while still an infant, thanks to a bomb that killed her dad who was a civilian at the time, a mum whose step father also lost his first wife and unborn child to another bomb, and who owes her own life to the Red Cross.
“Seems to me they factored it militant deaths as a likely proportion of general deaths when carpet bombing civilian areas.”
Right. So now you are accusing Israel of carpet-bombing civilian areas.
Lets see some evidence for these LIES Lefty.
Mark et al, bought an M.Ward album on advice here (Transfiguration of Vincent).
Good call! Some American Folk Roots in there too.
well, birdy, Ive been talking about the indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas. If you need evidence for that, then you weren’t following events, and havent understood the death toll figures. Nor what a cluster bomb actually is.
Anyway: business as usual wth the IDF targeting – they’ve just taken out a Reuters camerman in Gaza.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5289984.stm
Politically, it goes from bad to worse for Olmert. I wouldnt expect to see him in the job in 6 months. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5282626.stm
IDF Commander Halutz is on the way out as well, although he at least admits the IDF failures, unlike RWDBs here. But what would he know?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5282548.stm
And personally, I think Jacques Chirac is right on this one: 15,000 UN on top of 15,000 Lebanese army is unnecessary. Fact is – nothing short of a political agreement with Hezbollah is going to see them disarmed, regardless of force size.
Alex — velly nice ride, in the link there. Lucky feller. See, that’d be the point right there, muh boy. What need do you have for a bike if you’ve got yourself a nice chunk of classic Detroit metal? But don’t you people drive on the wrong side of the road and all?
Speaking of restoration, are there any of the great old ‘Scout’ vehicles lingering around in Australia. They get restored here all the time, and have become quite the hipster status thing. I always thought those were way cool, in spite of the annoying hipsters driving around in them. Well, at least every hipster in a Scout is one less hipster in a f*cking Hummer. Me, I drive something much much lower, much much nimbler, and much much faster, so I find all these lumbering SUVoid stegosaurus things to be quite a dangerous nuisance.
Lefty E — I too picked up some M. Ward on the advice of that thread: got the ‘Vincent’ record, and also one called ‘Transistor Radio,’ which I liked better. (I thought Vincent, while well done, was a trifle posed, while Transistor is more deeply authentically weird.) Monsieur Ward reminds me just a teensy bit of Mister Joe Henry. Are you familiar with his record, ‘Scar’? Worth a spin.
The other night was Cinema Night here at Castle Zenger, and we screened John Carpenter’s remake of ‘The Thing,’ itself a bit of an antique by now. (Love those Atari-style computer graphics!) Gotta say, though, it holds up rather well, and has some nice almost thoughtful scares in it. Considering the shape-shifter theme in the light of all the fuss over so-called ‘home-grown’ embedded terrorists, maybe it’s a horror movie whose time has finally come.
We also watched Steve McQueen in ‘Bullitt,’ which is pointless and makes next to no sense whatso-f*cking-ever. Though it’s always fun to see what SF looked like in the old days (some nice location shooting), and to see Steve-o wearing a *turtleneck* of all things, to show that he’s hip…
Wrong again Lefty E. The IDF did not take out Reuters camerman. Watch the story unfold. Then read the details: shrapnel hit the Reuters car.
On one hand the IDF can put a missile through the centre of a Red Cross on top of a rusty abandoned ambulance (with what is more likely that not, expired licence plates) thereby targetting civilians and on the other hand, its targetting of civilians (in this case journalists) is so amiss they get injured by shrapnel by shrapnel anyway. War crime! War crime!
Just hope Australia never gets attacked because some here wouldn’t allow our own defence forces to do their job.
Silkworm — I don’t think Israel instigated the war on behalf of the US, but I think it’s quite likely that Rice told Olmert he had three or four weeks to destroy Hizbollah (which would suit the US’ strategic objectives in the region) while the US kept the UN off Israel’s back. But the IDF found Hizb a much tougher nut to crack than they expected.
Hey, j_p_z, I like Bullitt.
And what were the IDF failures Lefty E? The failure was not ‘attacking Hezbollah’ or civilian deaths, but not giving the IDF clear enough objectives or equipment: ie the ability to go after Hezbollah properly.
You are on the internet. Do yourself a favour. Every time you read a breaking story wait a few hours or a day or two and follow up the details. And if you are smart you will also read from at least three sources of various persuasions to even begin to get an approximation of the whole story.
“well, birdy, Ive been talking about the indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas. If you need evidence for that, then you weren’t following events, and havent understood the death toll figures. Nor what a cluster bomb actually is.”
Stop messing around and come up with some evidence.
Now YOU say they have been targeting civilians. And you say they have been using cluster bombs in civilian areas.
You are LYING on both counts.
But prove me wrong and lets see some evidence.
JF Beck,
You’re not getting an argument about this from me. So don’t turn me into your straw (wo)man.
I presume you mean “incorrect”.
If Hezbollah weren’t fighting guerrilla-style, I don’t know what style they were fighting.
I guess you could ask the IDF Merkava IV tank crews who survived an encounter with those nifty Spigot anti-tank missiles that Mossad didn’t seem to know that Hezbollah possessed. I imagine they’d say that Hezbollah were fighting guerrilla-style.
Here is Bradley Burston, a columnist for the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on this question (my emphases):
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/753073.html
JF Beck seems terribly keen to make the same mistake that Burston is warning against.
Perhaps JF Beck could take this matter up with Haaretz.
Can you guys back off with the censorship for awhile.
Because Lefty has made these accusations. Now he’s going to spend all his time ducking and weaving. And I think I should be able to hold him responsible for these accusations that he has been making.
Quotes for our times, from “The Thing”:
“Well, I know *I’m* human.”
“It’s gotta be fucking kidding.”
“Everybody, watch who you’re with.”
Rob — yeah OK, I’m being a little harsh on Bullitt, which has its merits. To its credit, it’s surprisingly realistic, refuses to trade in most cop cliches, and it slows time down in interesting ways. But when you call your main character ‘Bullet,’ as it were, and then you go and bring the whole film to a dead stop while he drinks a glass of milk with his lunch, I think you’re maybe playing a bit of bait-and-switch with your audience. And the car chase, while technically well done, is dramatically disappointing because we have no clear idea of who those other guys in the other car really *are*, and thus no clear investment in the outcome of the chase. Ben-Hur needs to give these fellers a bit of a talking-to.
This style of gritty, non-romantic nuevo-police thriller was, I think, brought to perfection only a few years later by William Friedkin. And sorry, the car chase under the Bensonhurst El in ‘French Connection’ kicks some serious ass.
Thank you. Thank you. Ronin is a fabulous film that never seemed to get much attention. Not nearly enough films about sensible looking European cars with going very fast. Was watching Munich and noticed one of the actors in Ronin (can’t remember his name) reprised his role as “erudite French countryside living man with contacts” in ‘Munich’, his agent must have been thrilled.
Stellan Skargard made for a great banal killer as well
Bullit was dull dull dull, all I got was the impression that Steve McQ threw a tanty and demanded a car chase.
JPZ, I heard for French Connection they just got in the car and drove. Urban Myth?
Oh and LeftyE, the vehicle in the pictures says “REUTERS RESS” vehicle not “REUTERS PRESS” as is being claimed.
“What’s the colour of the boathouse at Hereford?”
Yes Ronin was quite a underated little flick although the MacGuffin was more than usually Macguffinish.
And Anthony, the actor you’re thinking of Michael Lonsdale who also played one of the better Bond villans. “Look after Mr Bond. See that some harm comes to him.”
In retrospect all Bullitt’s really got going for it now is a certain laconic cool style built around turtlenecks and mustangs. Though for some reason the scene where Bullitt riffles through the dead witness’s wallet like a pack of cards stays with me.
One great car chase was in the latest version of The Bourne Identity. A very nice touch at the beginning was Bourne studying the street map before making his run.
Of course nothing tops Cannonball Run 2.
And stop me if you’ve seen thisbefore.
That’s interesting, Anthony, but I havent been one of the warring parties on the ambulance question. Seems rather irrelevant to the big picture, to me.
Ok, last word from me, Birdy – here’s your cluster bombing in civilian areas. http://www.ntnews.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,20224329%5E1702,00.html
Note the UN has verified 170 different sites, and clearance teams have disarmed over 1000. And that was four days ago.
Rob – I agree (wow!)
Saint – yes, failure to achieve the twin stated aims of return of the captured Israeli soldiers and the removal of Hezbollah’s influence from southern Lebanon. And you know Im just repeating Israeli assessments on this score. Third, could add failure to isolate Hezbollah from civilian support within Lebanon – but I won’t stand on that one, as it was external speculation about IF aims. Pretty thin distinction on the shrapnel issue; and if I may say so, Ill be sticking with the BBC report for now (as reputable as ‘little green footballs’ may be as a new source!)
Until next time, RWDBs, fun stoushing with you.
JPZ – dont know Joe Henry, might poke around Amazon for a listen!
Hezbollah losers: Loathed in Lebanon.
Reuters story still unfolding Lefty E – video available.
This war didn’t end in the sense that one side unconditionally surrendered. But then you are not talking state actors with Hezbollah.
But you know, return of the Israeli soliders is part of the cease fire agreement. If Hezbollah doesn’t then its there problem if Israel responds. And if half the west is blinded, too bad. This could still be the beginning of the end of Hezbollah. Lebanese bloggers are also actively discussing how to dismantle the organisation. And the Cedar Revolution would suggest there is enough critical mass in Lebanon willing to piss off any Iranian sock puppet even if the West lacks any critical mass of grey matter.
Oh and I’m not a RWDB. Nor do I support Israel’s actions because I am a Christian – Christian Zionism is a false theology. I support Israel because it is a modern liberal democratic state which has shown more restraint than it should. And I despise Hezbollah not just because they are terrorists hiding behind a social welfare/political organisatoin, but also because the majority of Lebanese have shown they want to be a modern liberal democratic state as well.
Saint [at 4:16pm]:
I may have said that Mr A Sharon should have faced justice in The Hague but I didn’t say that Israel committed war crimes by using cluster bombs. International law as it stands at present permits them and everyone else to such weapons.
What I do object to is the use of weapons that cause unwanted deaths, injuries and costs many years after a conflict …. and cluster bombs, land mines and persistent war chemicals are among the worst offenders in this regard and so they should be banned as soon as possible.
The money shot from CL’s crib from Tim Blair:
Hezbollah is Shiite. Shites and Sunnis despise each other across the middle East. (Perhaps CL hasn’t been keeping up with the latest news from Iraq).
This is the religious breakdown of Lebanon (via Wiki)
If CL can produce some good evidence of Hezbollah being loathed by a significant number of Shiites I’ll be impressed, and surprised.
Meanwhile, if CL wants to continue to be an effective feisty controversialist, I’d recommend that he refrain from uncritically cribbing stuff from Tim Blair.
Kisses.
Katz isn’t reading very widely.
Nabakov — speaking of Bond villains, whilst surfing good old imdb in the wake of a ‘Rocky Horror’ jones, I discovered that the redoubtable Charles Gray, who plays The Criminologist to a tee, (“I would like –*if I may* — to take *you* on a *strange* journey.”) also got to play Mr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld himself, in one of the Bond pix (forget which one now, hopefully not one of the awful Roger Moore dealies). And when is Tim Roth going to get to play a snooty Bond villain, with David Cross as his smug underling/hatchet man? No justice, no peace!
anthony — I don’t know if that rumor is true about the ‘French Connection’ car chase, but I’d find it impossible to believe. For one thing, the chase is just too good to be improvised (now I have to go watch the damn movie again, haven’t seen it in years), and also, that area is simply too crowded and has too much street and sidewalk traffic (and also, too much great Italian food!) to improvise a thing like that without lots of people getting killed. I can imagine the EMT guys arriving on the scene:
“It’s horrible! — There’s ravioli all over the asphalt! And the cheese — it’s so *fresh*!”
Much more important than the Middle East conflict and one for Robert I think: when I hover the mouse pointer over the recent comments, the timestamp comes up as “posted -1 years, 12 months ago”. Does LP have its own Y2K problem? This happens in Firefox, anyway …
j-p-z and Alex:
Were never a great number of IH Scouts here (too much competition from LandRover) though years later we did get the Subaru (Fuji) Brumby light utility with a watercooled VW-type engine and a semi-4WD (it climbed trees and chased cats upstairs) and the short-wheelbase (but never the long wheel-base???) Lada Niva Russian 4WD designed for the bogs of Siberia, built with the strength, reliability and finish of a T-34 tank; unfortunately, Australian drivers kept driving them at freeway speeds instead of keeping them off bitumen. Both great vehicles.
1. Lebanon’s Shiites aren’t “most people”. They are 35% ofthe population.
2. South Beirut is now an unpopulated pile of rubble, courtesy of the IDF.
3. I can understand why most Lebanese might “loath” Hezbollah. So what, they’re a factional guerrilla force, not a centrist political party.
4. None of your ABC quote says anything about Lebanese Shiites “loathing” Hezbollah.
Keep on cribbing.
Oh, Katz also forgot one of Hezbolah’s loudest and proudest boasts (obsequiously repeated by the adolescent Western left): namely, that the great and brave and terribly clever Sheik Nasrallah has forged cross-confessional support for his objectives thanks to silly old Israel.
Another lie, now disintegrating.
The obvious Sunni and wider Arab suspicion of Hezbollah underlines what I’ve been arguing for a few weeks. Iran and Nasrallah have badly and stupidly overplayed their hand in Lebanon and when the time comes for Tehran’s wings to be clipped, most of the Middle East will be extremely keen on seeing the Persians stomped on.
Some “victory.”
As for alleged inter-Shiite solidarity:
One word for Hezbollah: losers.
If CL wants to achieve wider publicity for his thesis that “Israel won”, perhaps he could email a submission on that theme to the forthcoming high level inquiry on Israel’s performance in the recent, abbreviated confrontation with Hezbollah.
Prime Minister Olmert would be chuffed to hear CL’s views, whether or not he survives as the PM.
When Mr Olmert writes his memoirs, perhaps he will quote CL’s words of praise in the chapter “How I Beat Hezbollah but Got no Credit”.
By the way Katz, it’s called LINKING – not “cribbing” (which evokes the charge of plagiarism). I know you’re upset about your favourite terrorist organisation’s propaganda claims slowly falling apart but do try to calm down.
Silly sausage CL!
No I didn’t.
See quote from a recent post of mine:
As you can see, I stipulated the exact opposite of your rather intemperate claim.
There you go again CL, turning me into a straw (wo)man again. A gal could get quite impatient at such ungallant behaviour.
j-p-z and Alex:
If anyone happens to be giving Audis away tonight …. oh well, I suppose I’ll just have to take one off their hands.
btw, You mentioned Audis. The Chineses Wu Jing (Peoples Armed Police – internal security troops) were running around in a fleet of black Audis …. just because you have to be on duty there’s no reason why you shouldn’t do so in style.
Graham Bell — thanks for the info on the Scout. Now, why hasn’t some enterprising auto manufacturer combined the fuel efficiency of the Mini Cooper, with the false sense of security of the giant armored Hummer and SUV? Ladies and Gents, I give you the Subaru Dalek! Small, battle-hardened and obnoxious, able to fit only one narcissistic passenger, yet capable of fully wheeling about, so long as there are no stairs involved. And dig the sound of that car-horn: “You will yield the right of way, or you will be exterminated! Obey! Obey!”
The secret fantasy of every SUV driver, realized at last.
and now, Part Two of the Great Bensonhurst French Connection Car Chase Crack-Up:
EMT RESPONSE GUY: “My God! There’s bodies everywhere! The street is covered with puttanesca sauce — and it’s incredible! Send more back-up! — and, pick up some nice salsiccia and bread from Theresa’s over on New Utrecht Avenue…”
Katz, you are bang on the money.
I just don’t get why one side blowing the fuck out of civilians is wrong (which it most certainly is), while the other side doing the same thing is OK (which it most certanly isn’t).
I’d suggest anybody who wants to get some sort of perspective on what’s happened in Lebanon read Fisk’s ‘Pity the Nation’, written in his pre-Pilger period.
Yeah, Rush out and read the man who believes “pious” Jewish fighter-pilots used “the cross” to guide their Hanna-Barbera floaty bomb that fell on an ambulance.
There is no nuance that escapes his eye.
Charles Gray not only played Blofeld, and his double, in Diamonds Are Forever — “Double jeopardy, Mr Bond” — he also played the British agent Henderson in You Only Live Twice.
There were “plenty” of memorable lines from Diamonds Are Forever:
“Making mud pies, 007?”
“Welcome to hell, Blofeld.”
“Look who the cat dragged in.”
“I was just out walking my rat and seem to have lost my way… ”
“We do function in your absence, Commander.”
“I give up. I know the diamonds are in the body, but where?”; “Alimentary, my dear Leiter.”
“You handle those cubes like a monkey handles coconuts.”
“Hi, I’m Plenty.” “But of course you are.” “Plenty O’Toole.” “Named after your father perhaps?”
“Hey, what the hell is this? A pervert’s convention or something?”
“I didn’t know there was a pool down there.”
“I’m afraid that you’ve caught me with more than my hands up!”
“Presumably I’m the condemned man and obviously you’re the hearty breakfast. ”
“Right idea, Mr. Bond…” “…But wrong pussy.”
“Tiffany, my dear. We’re showing a bit more cheek than usual, aren’t we? Take her below and lock her up with Mr. Bond. What a pity, such nice cheeks too. If only they were brains.”
“Well, they’re aboard, and I must say, Miss Case is quite lovely… for a woman.”
“And for dessert, the piece de resistance… a Bombe Surprise.” “Mmm! That looks fantastic. What’s in it?” “Ah… But then there would be no surprise, Madame.”
“He certainly left with his tail between his legs…”
What’s you favourite line from a Bond film?
Taken from ‘research’ that will appear in the Australian tomorrow:
Economists seem to think the only motivation for human activity is the dollar. Sad really.
How do they explain the fact that husbands/wives support each other and their offspring? How do they explain ‘charity’ work’ etc?
I am sure they have an answer. But I suspect it is only sensible/rational /plausible in terms of the assumptioms they have begun with.
Why do economists think they have all the ‘answers’? And why do the policy makers accept this nonsense?
j-p-z:
Wow! The Brumby (= an Australian mustang) returns as a Subaru Dalek ….. “exterminate, exterminate”
Silkworm, you forgot one of my favourites from Diamonds Are Forever:
Bond: I tend to notice little things like that…whether a girl’s a red-head or a blonde.
Tiffany Case: And which do you prefer?
James Bond: Oh, either, provided the collars match the cuffs.
Live and Let Die also has some greats.
[When Tee-Hee is unable to undo Bond's wrist watch with his metal arm]: “Butter hook.”
JPZ
Ha! Not forgetting the Pramigiana.
Bit of fossicking around and apparently they had ‘controlled’ and ‘uncontrolled’ bits with a couple of stunt cars for near misses and one non-stunt car in an actual collision (oops). Digging back into unreliable memories, the lady in the pram was a stunt. (you’d hope) So genuine white knuckles and brown trousers for Gene Hackman.
Graham
Two ranks of manufactured cars in China (at least there was a few years back), the Audis you mentioned and then something like a VW Passat (and then pushbikes of course)
Nabakov
No
don’t
stop
ahhhh
[lights cigarette]
Aural brilliance that. Crap sound but decidely queasy Parisian thrills
here.
PanelbeaterBird on 27 August 2006 at 7:43 pm
âThe United Nations reported this week that the number of civilian casualties in Lebanon from cluster munitions, land mines and unexploded bombs stood at 30 injured and eight killed.â?
THIRTY(30) INJURED AND EIGHT (8) KILLED FROM CLUSTER MUNITIONS.
Now in the wash-up they might find two or three as many people killed by these things.
But the point is that given the nature of these things and the way they can fly about the place it hardly looks like they were actually TARGETING civilians with themâ¦
DOES IT LEFTY.
In fact given the very nature of these things the low reported figures would serve pretty much as strong evidence bordering on proof that they WERENâT targeting civilians.
WOULDNâT IT LEFTY.
[link]
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Tiffany Case? *squeals with excitement* Oooooh! I’m changing my name!
CL
Is that WSJ columnist Amir Tehiri as in making shit up Amir Tehiri?
wpd:
1.Because Economists are the Priestly Class in this society and must not be disobeyed.
2. Because Policy Makers are lazy and lack imagination.
Graham Bell, I tend to agree with your first point. I remember treasury officials talking about ‘lazy capital’ etc and not being able to provide any sensible response when they were confronted and taken out of their comfort zone. For example, the notion of ‘social capital’ was denigrated and then discarded because it couldn’t be measured.
They knew the price of everything and the value of nothing.
As to your second point, I must protest. Many ‘policy makers’ at least at the public service level have plenty of energy and imagination. But they work within political constraints; as they should.
oh poo – seems like blatant advertising in a rather odd way but well someone might be interested in this http://bbb-bernice.blogspot.com/ re the looming bid for Coles Myer.
Yes that Amir Tehiri…where even the Post editor who attempted to verify the story got (erroneous) confirmation from named sources. And fancy who did an analysis of what happened?
There was however a dress code being debated in Iranian parliament – to tighten up on the Islamic dress code.
So now, prove that Amir Tehiri was making this one up. He’s cited journo articles and his named families. Easy enough to check.
Anthony,
Is that Juan Cole as in making shit up Juan Cole?
You’re free to repudiate Tahiri’s arguments but, of course, you can’t.
his = he has
wpd:
Alright, I was a bit rough on some decent polcy makers )though too gentle on those who whave killed good people with bad policies).
Lenin’s Bolsheviks, Mao’s Communists, Hitler’s Nazis, Fatah, Hamas, Hizbollah all understood the importance of social capital ….. now what was that you saying about born-loser Treasury officials and unintentional supporters of terrorism denigrating “social capital”?
(Must run; trying to watch Julius Caesar against Vercingetorex on ABC TV. Good night)
Katz:
The money shot from CL’s crib from Tim Blair:
In the end, Hezbollah supporters were turned back from an attempt to plaster posters of their leader around Marwaheen, a Sunni Muslim village…
Hezbollah is Shiite. Shites and Sunnis despise each other across the middle East. (Perhaps CL hasn’t been keeping up with the latest news from Iraq).
How much was I waiting for that.
The shorter Katz: Sunni Lebanese aren’t Lebanese, Druze Lebanese aren’t Lebanese, Christian Lebanese aren’t Lebanese (hmm thats 65% and counting) In fact even the Shia Lebanese who don’t support Hezbollah aren’t Lebanese.
Everyone must bow to Hezbollah.
Shorter Saint: I’m a dill who can’t read for meaning.
I repeat:
Can I make my meaning any clearer than this?
I don’t expect an apology.
JPZ and Graham – Do either of you know the name of the British Motorcycle company that had the square 4 engine? I’d love one of those.
CL – Ad hominem attacks make you look silly.
Oh apologies Katz I was distracted by the quick change artists.
Katz said:
1. Lebanonâs Shiites arenât âmost peopleâ?. They are 35% ofthe population.
Katz also said:
If CL can produce some good evidence of Hezbollah being loathed by a significant number of Shiites Iâll be impressed, and surprised.
The shorter saint: One day, Katz might work out most Lebanese don’t support Hezbollah.
Katz now accepts one of my central arguments: that Hezbollah has badly botched its image within its own milieu and the Middle East – contrary to media spin about how Nasrallah has suddenly become cross-denominationally admired. This latter idea, indeed, has been touted as the most convincing evidence of Hezbollah’s so-called “victory.” Thank you, at long last, for accepting this notion is total nonsense.
I don’t expect an apology.
Would a victory march in your honour be good enough then C.L.
Score:
CL – 1
Katz – still working out the maths
Night all
CL
Not a fan of Juan Cole, ho hum what a surprise – as Saint points out Tehiri was widely debunked elsewhere.
So what am I supposed to repudiate here? Everybody loves Hezbollah, no they don’t, victory Israel. Can’t for a moment imagine why the Israelis aren’t more excited over that one.
Now Saint, you seem to be think that I’d be surprised to find out that a Jewish news source would be a critic of the Tehiri story. What exactly is it that you’re implying here?
Ah bugger he’s gone to bed.
I’ll take “fancy who did an analysis” as “isn’t it nice they can all agree” and say goodnight.
I’d summarise the whole current ME hoo-ha in terms of the other part of this thread.
“Do you expect me to talk Goldfinger?”
No Mr Bond, I expect you to die.”
“And when is Tim Roth going to get to play a snooty Bond villain”
Oh yes indeedy, he does a great line in charismatic bad guys. At least until they dry Gary Oldman out. But either one would do as a classic Bond bad guy, especially if either do really get to kill Daniel Craig at the end. A blond Bond? That is so not gonna work.
Bring back Brosnan I say, the best Bond since Sean started losing his hair in You Only Have Hair Plugs Twice.
CL has entered Carrollian realms of linguistic gymnastics in a failed attempt to conceal the threadbare condition of his forensic abilities.
Any apology from him could not be accepted as a statement of a mind attached to reason.
Even feeble, mad CL recognises that I have never attempted to contradict this point.
However, Saint is still a dill who has added illogic to his existing failure to read for meaning.
CL and Saint would make a wonderful couple. CL would be pathetically grateful to overlook Saint’s shortcomings. While Saint wouldn’t be capable of perceiving CL’s shortcomings.
When’s the wedding? I suspect that neither of you would be prepared to live in sin.
(PS, I don’t want the pick of the litter.)
Oh poor Katz can’t cope with more than one person challenging him/her.
Here you go Katz, your first material argument:
Is that an admission?
Most think Hezbollah were wrong. Even Nasrallah admists his stupidity.
Frankly even without the challenges of “guerilla war” this is a legitimate strategy. Katz wants to think that everyone can go have a war somewhere far away without disturbing Katz. My guess here is that if at any time Australia is attacked, Katz doesn’t want to have to either defend Oz or have to suffer. I sniff fear.
In any other nation state, Hezbollah would be tried for high treasons by its won government. Hezbollaah has no authority moral or otherwise to wage war on behalf of the Leebanese people. It is a terrorist organisation and the only warranted strategy is to destroy it.
Really? Is that why Nasrallah admitted his mistake yesterday?
What is indicative is that Hezbollah proved wrong. Read today’s papers.
What was that about admitting stuff you don’t believe?
It’s called dhimmitude. Dhimmitude is not humility.
Oh I think my family has demystified a lot for me thanks Katz. Yours?
Anthony, CL cited an article from Amir Taheri about our Iranian Sock Puppets which I also posted on my blog. It begins
You questioned the integrity of this article based on another article which had erroneous information. Well you haven’t disproved his claims in this article which is one of many which goes against Katz and other’s assertions that opinion is not swigning away from Hezbollah, even amongst its own support base – not that it ever had majority Lebanese support in the first place.
(And sorry for the typos, jumpy screen syndrome again today)
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/08/26/saturday-salon-69/#comment-132905
Well, I jinxed it didn’t I?
Girlyman Nasrallah capitulates:
This statement must have been brought on by how incredibly popular he is in Lebanon!
No surprise: Katz too proud to apologise.
Anyway, it’s now over to the formidable young French lions!
Oh no Kim let’s just finish Katz off before we get to the group hug..
After her stupendous introduction what comes next?
Katz resonates.
Remember that.
Katz then decides fighting terrorists using anti-personal devices in civilian areas is “reckless at best and cynical at worst”. While she holds the high moral ground you can write to the IDF
Then thinks Hezbollah is fighting guerrilla style. While she holds the high moral ground you can write to Haaretz.
Accuses CL of cribbing from Tim Blair when CL posts evidence that Lebanese are resisting Hezbollah. Can’t accept this as evidence because they were Sunni. Wants evidence of majority of Shia turning against Hezbollah. Tries again this time saying Shia are only 35% of the population.
While she holds the high moral ground you can write to Ohmert.
Admits most don’t support Hezbollah.
Reiterates she can “understand” that “most don’t support Hezbollah”
Go back to her original post. Guess who is not understanding, listenting, resonating, empathizing.
1. If you judge war by standard methods – unconditional surrender – no one won. It just showed Hezbollah for the terrorists and war criminals that they are (my argument). Katz however would have you believe Israel is as much a war criminal as they are.
2. If you judge the war by Israel’s political objectives (C.L’s main argument) e.g. turning support against Hezbollah be it within Lebanon or in the Arab community in general, getting the Lebanese army on the border (the only state actor truly representative of Lebanon, weak and corrupt as it is, but that is a big victory for the Lebanese too), stopping Hezbollah attacks and possibly soon, the return of its soldiers, Israel won and as days tick by it looks like it more and more. Katz however would have you believe that this has strengthened Hezbollah’s support and Israel is not victorious.
Gee Saint.
Thanks for redacting my post.
Your point being?
To add a little bit of non-Saintly perspective to this discussion:
As I said in an earlier thread on this issue, the last time Israel invaded Lebanon, they had an entire Christian-Lebanese army on their side. This time? Well, no show, Your Honour.
Last time, the Israelis left Lebanon in good military order. This time they were chased out of the country with anti-tank rocketry.
Now my tentative judgment, which until now, despite Saint’s and CL’s certainty they can divine in what I’ve said, I have not yet ventured:
Both sides have lost credit at home. This is more critical to the Israeli government, because they rely upon electoral support. Hezbollah may well have made firmer enemies among those Lebanese who hated them in the first place. I see little evidence of Lebanese Shiites abandoning Hezbollah.
The Israeli tank industry has suffered a major blow.
Iran has got it’s money’s worth in presenting Shiite Islam as the vanguard Islamist movement in the Middle East. This has worried and infuriated Sunni-dominated regimes. This can only improve Iran’s credit in Iraq, which is after all the main game in the Middle East at present.
Oh, and the Russian arms industry has had a bonanza showing off its very clever little anti-tank weaponry.
And the US arms industry has also had a bonanza as US taxpayers (and the Central Bank of China) subsidise yet another raft of high-tech equipment for the IDF.
Anthony provides the correct perspective on this pseudo-issue confected by the Bed Wetters:
I agree with Anthony.
Try again Katz, I don’t resonate
The Christian militia disbanded and disarmed. When Israel moved out the Syrians move in. Somehwere along the line you also forgot the Cedar Revolution.
There was no Israeli tactic to hold ground except right at the end when the ceasefire was announced. At the time of the ceasefire there were 30,000 Israeli troops still on the ground. Don’t know the numbers now but it will still be between 10000 to 20000. They are only withdrawing as they can handover to the LA and UNIFIL. Before Hezbollah started this incursion there were no Israeli soldiers in Lebanon. And the Lebanese Army did not have full run of the state. Now south of the Litani for the first time in decades. By your definition sounds like Hezbollah sucked them all back in instead of chasing them away.
While the IDF suffered more causualties than they should have in tank units, they adopted fast and rest assured they will be doing their analysis ready for the next one. Because Hezbollah showed their hand.
Iran got it’s money worth? Wait and see. It’s not looking good for them.
And the biggest buyers of military arsenal – yep our wonderful oil rich terrorist sponsoring Arab/Muslim states while they keep most of their civilians in poverty. You really really really are a caring and sharing kind of gal aren’t you? Personally I empathize a bit more with girls with spine. You my dear, should write to Ahmanejad.
So your bottom line on “winners”, Saint is “wait and see”.
Glad to read you’ve come round to my way of thinking.
I’d like to say what a pleasure it has been sharing views with you.
Huzzah, the quick change artist is at it again (so are the comments being posted out of time order)
I remind you Katz of your “material fact” no. 4
This time:
Score:
CL 2
Katz 0
Not at all Saint.
I was referring to their support among the Shiites of Lebanon. I thought I’d made that quite clear some time ago.
You may deplore the fact that Hezbollah isn’t a centrist political party in the western sense, as may I.
Hezbollah could never legitimately expect the Christians or the Sunni of Lebanon to support them. It is more than likely that this part of the Lebanese population hates them more than before the conflict. So what?
No I think now Katz you need to learn the definition of humiliation (which is really pride) and humility (which is restrained strength, strength used for the good of others).
Shorter Katz: Nasrallah has admitted his mistake and culpability, but I insist on writing the speeches for Iran. After all keeping my head in the sand is good practice for wearing a burka. As all good girls should.
Oh come on. If Bird were here, he’d point out that this is another example of the ‘terrorists’ meticulously playing to their western and their greater arabic audiences. And he’d probably be right. It plays right into the disproportionate response stuff.
If only Hezzbollah had Arnie as fearless leader.
And saint, YOU need to learn the definition of pompous dickhead.
It plays right into the hands of any men with balls who want to bring Nasrallah to justice for high treason against the Lebanese people and war crimes against Israeli and Lebanese citizens.
Don’t expect the disproportionate response crowd to be among them. There too busy hyperventilating.
Yep Adrian. That’s me. Pompous dickhead.
What a dickhead I am to think that members of the reality based community might even oh, base their arguments on something akin to facts, coherence, you know, reality. Instead, what do we get: people believing rusty ambulances were hit by a missile or maybe a falling rock – but it’s a war crime anyway, people assertions without evidence and, er Ms Katz who accuses people of “cribbing”, spits out ad-hominen attacks, and wants you all to write letters.
Hey, it’s me who get’s accused of living in a faith-based world. It’s the others who want to live in a parallel universe. Remember?
And it’s me who has to learn how to type without typos.
What do you get for being 200th again? A lollipop? What obscure economist was annointed?
Doubtless Nasrallah believes he has some fences to mend in Lebanon. Nothing new here.
I guess in the “faith-based” world that Saint inhabits “mistake” and “culpability” mean the same thing.
That’s the problem with these god-fearing folks: “can and can’t” often get so terribly mixed up with “should and shouldn’t”.
Saint so awfully wants the Israelis to “win” and Hezbollah to “lose” that he projects his wishes on to reality.
Friendly advice: it’s a dangerous practice Saint.
200th, Tony? Bah, that’s nothing.
I think Graeme Bird should get some congratulations for being 2,000th (over two threads).
Lebanon PM denounces Israel’s conduct in Lebanon as “a war crime”.
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=12272
Funny, this Hezbollah-hating Sunni hasn’t said the same of Hezbollah.
If Hezbollah were weakened as much as the Usual Suspects fantasize, why isn’t he taken his opportunity?
Seems he thinks he has more to fear from “defeated” Hezbollah than he has from “victorious” Israel.
Maybe one of the Usual Suspects could set the Lebanese govering class straight on this missed opportunity to do as Saint so eloquently terms it:
If Sunni Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora accepted Jesus as his Personal Saviour, would he be more likely to grow a set of balls?
when a ‘war’ breaks out the ‘loser’ is the one who is a goner politically because the public soon understands the whys and wherefores.
In Israel it appears every party apart from Likud is in trouble but Kadima and the Labour party are in deep doo-doo.
On the other hand Hezbollah has been been more popular or admired particularly given its guerrillas out-fighting the IDF despite their relative poor armaments.
This policy for Israel was very simialr to Iraq for the US with as much thought put into it.
So “popular and admired” that Nasrallah is now apologising like Mel Gibson on crack.
Still no apology from Katz.
No class, no ticker.
CL resorts to manufacturing quotes.
I never said this.
No integrity.
“On the other hand Hezbollah has been been more popular or admired particularly given its guerrillas out-fighting the IDF despite their relative poor armaments.”
That doesn’t seem to be the message coming out of Lebanon currently. It’s much more mixed I’d suggest, Homer, and Nasrallah’s expression of regret for – needlessly – initiating the conflict doesn’t mesh with victor’s triumphalism.
Hezbollah certainly won the media war but given their propensity to maximise civilian casualties on their own side, via “strategic positioning,” it was pretty much no-win for the IDF on that front. One of the hallmarks of terrorism is it’s infinite capacity for – and indeed, delight in – grisly body counts. The agitprop value of the pix is probably worth at least 100 Iranian rockets.
Apart from that, I’m not sure anyone “won” anything in the final analysis
I don’t disagree too much with you Geoff except that it seems to me Nazzie is a far better politican than anyone else around.
A bit hard to be triumpalist whilst rumble is all around but Hezbollah didn’t have to do a lot to win however given Olmert’s absurd ooutbursts Israel was always in a no-win situation.
Homer did.
Katz: no idea.
Israel won. The End.
CL bails.
…and I really don’t think that anyone is going to win anything here either.
Thanks for fixing the time stamp issue!
I think 200 comments may be a Higgins.
50 = Popper; 100 = Hayek; 150 = de Beuavoir; 200 = Higgins; 2000 = Birdy (obviously).
Speaking of which, I think the Missy thread is poised for a Higgins de Beauvoir. Can I be the frist to do it?
Katz fails.
Oooo quick change artist Katz is still going. Must be all those veils which are so alluring. Would like a chador with that?
Katz’s âmaterial factâ? no. 4
Next time:
Now:
Strengthening support.
Maintaining base support.
Mending fences.
I wonder what velcro secured argument will come next.
Score:
CL 3
Katz 0
You’re right CL, three strikes she’s out.
And now for the foot-stomping ceremony
I guess Katz can’t work out Nasrallah has no authority, state, moral or otherwise to command anyone to attack Israel on behalf of the Lebanese people. He thinks he made a mistake poor poppet. We just have video evidence of his culpability for his trial with a few billion witnesses to go with it. If the Israelis don’t knock him off first. Which is why great illustrious mighty commander Nasrallah can’t show his face in public. While poor besieged Olmert still goes to work free and unfettered. That’s the trouble with Katz: democracy doesn’t sit well with her; she can’t even understand how it works. She just wants to be a princess.
And the best bit from a decades-long local at the pub tonight: “There is a lot to criticise about America….but I can’t stand this reflex anti-America and anti-Israel shyte from the left.” After which, one rusted on member proceeded to hand in their card.
One more lost soul, figured out the winning side.
Break a nail Katz.
Alex:
No. Sorry. Can’t help you there. Norton did try to go into light aircraft but can’t remember which motorbike engine they used. BSA did have a big military bike but feel it was a 2-cylinder. Can’t think of any other possibilities.
Ariel/BSA I think put out the Square Four but don’t quote me.
I may be wrong but if you get threads this long where only 3 people are participating in a stoush, it’s a fair bet that no one much else is reading anymore.
Saint loses it
Each reiteration of his position becomes more extreme and drifts further away from analysis toward crackerbarrel moralising.
Tell the folks about the Coming Jerusalem Saint.
Agreed Mark.
I think the monomania of the RWDB has been sufficiently exposed.
Ariel put out a square 4 in the ’50s. Here’s a link:
http://www.mathewscollection.com/motorcycles/Motorcycle_Ariel.htm
OK so you can quote me with Ariel/BSA
Fiven Katz is wrong again about me being I am an RWDB/Zionist (read the thread sunshine) we can ignore her while she plays with her Razanne dolls.
This one is for Lefty E: An update on our Reuters vehicle in Gaza. Does it look like a missile? Or another ambulance trick? What was the name of that injured journo again? Who’d he work for?
I know this is 223, but a 222 should be a Haynes.
Cripes, Saint – the IDF claimed responsibility for that one the same night we were stoushing about it. So you can forget your ‘ambulance trick’ crap. I was polite enough not to bring it up then (Lord knows why); but you’re still carrying on. What is it – five days later?
I dont know why Katz bothers with you. You’re obsessed, and constantly questioning things the IDF doesnt contest. Which is, prima facie, a bit demented.
And dude, get some better sources. Little green footballs? And they the ones kicked about by little green men?
Thanks for the kind words Lefty E.
I confess at first I thought that Saint was sincere and merely ill-informed.
Turns out he was a troll.
Trolls can be ignored or stomped.
Stomping takes a little trouble.
Now I can ignore him, should he ever return.
222 is surely a Richie (Benaud)?
just for the dummies the ambulance damage is wholly consistent with being hit by a drone.
Please note that the red cross says the incident definitely happened and no-one just yet are saying they are Hezbollah surrogates!
Lefty, you need to get out around the right side of the blogos a bit more. Half the world and its dog has seen zombietime’s exposure of the ambulance hoax. Hell, even Alex the Downer has seen it More generally, Michelle Malkin has put together a neat little vid on terrorists’ use of ambulances. You can watch it over here if you like.
Thanks? Don’t mention it. [grins cheerfully]
Moderated. Could someone free my lovely comment?
Speaking of trolls and their obsessions, here’s the latest on IDF cluster bombing.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/un-chief-slams-immoral-israel/2006/08/31/1156816999586.html
Most disturbingly, as UN Jan Egeland’s comments:
A desperate, politically clueless, barbaric strategy from a morally bankrupt leadership at the end of completely disastrous military failure – with utter reckless indifference towards returning civilians.
Rob, unfortunately for you Lord downer would not comment whether a drone could make said damage on ambulance yet he was very happy to say it couldn’t have been caused by an Israeli jet.
Have a good think about that!
Done, Rob. Too many links!
Yeah, Rob.
This is the first time I’ve mentioned the ambulance. That hasn’t been my gig until now.
The zombietime presentation convinces me that this was a hoax.
So what? Media like dramatic but trivial stories. Belligerents have psyops services dedicated to the production and propagation of these lies. The US psyops service is probably the biggest and best funded of these operations.
Remember the humidicrib lies in GW1?
Hezbollah is amateur hour.
Bottom line: war justifies lies.
Maybe the most productive line of argument is to decide who tells the most effective lies, and how to put those lies to the destruction test.
The alternative is to play partisan in the peddling of one side’s lies.
And that’s just not dignified.
Rob, I haven’t been following this ambulance thing closely. But I’ve heard the Red Cross twice in the last 24 hours insist that it was hit. One was a witness on the job. This morning they had a go at it on RN Breakfast.
The Red Cross are insisting that it was hit, but they never said it was a missile.
Re zombietime one of my National Party rellies sent me this. My immediate reaction was that what he says looks convincing, but I’m not sure how much I should trust an anonymous blogger to not be selective, twist the thing a bit or even doctor it to suit the argument.
Also if a woman is grieving in front of three different houses that were flattened, the main game is that the houses were very thoroughly flattened.
Complaining about Hezbollah ‘bullying’ or manipulating the media is put forward as though the other side would never do it, or manipulating the press and providing them selective access to stories would never happen in decent country like the US.
So I’d note what the zombie says and wait for more knowledgeable critique.
Apologies if this has already been done.
Hmmm, lest objectivety go completely out the window:
The main game is are the news photos/stories faked?
Are supposedly spontaneous “live” news photos actually staged?
Are supposedly impartial & objective western news reporters photographing and reporting on what they know are staged events?
The slanting of news or otherwise by “the other side” or other people is IRRELEVANT.
The issue at hand is that Hezbollah has not only made up many (if not most) of the picture news stories to come from Lebanon, but staged them in the manner of a school play.
This goes far beyond manipulating the media (eg, the media being duped/kept in the dark by Israel) this is the media unquestioningly swallowing hoaxes and knowingly reporting fabrications as gospel.
Zombie (who cares who he/she is, play the ball not the man) has raised matters which indisputably require close scrutiny.
Some jouranlists may have done a “Rather” on themselves.
Or perhaps Zombie is making it all up.
Close objective scrutiny is required. A whitewash attempt will not put the matter to rest.