I found Irfan Yusuf’s Planet Irf through the OzPolitics blog feed (how else). It’s well worth taking a look at his posts on Andrew Robb, Tony Abbott and The Pope. From what I’ve seen, a few comments that manage to be intelligent as well as forthright might be welcomed.
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Finally, a post at LP condemning the Pope for his recent attack on Islam. Oh wait …
Yep that’s right silky, the Vatican have got LP on a leash.
When have I ever heard *you* condemn Islamic fundamentalism, silky? For an alleged atheist you’re pretty one sided.
Before you get carried away singing the praises of Irfan’s blog I suggest you read his last Online Opinion article here.
Remarkable for the disorganised and rambling blunderbuss approach to all who provoke his ire. Beware of placing too many eggs in this particular basket, the man is most likely unhinged.
A fixed link here.
Umm, mind pointing out what exactly is wrong with Irfan’s article, ratzy?
Yep that’s right Jason, the Vatican have got LP on a leash.
I can find a dozen left-wing blogs condemning the Pope for his comments, but one stands out for its absence. Still, Gummo must be commended for creating the opportunity for comment on this issue.
I notice that the pope had to issue a second apology for his comments, because he didn’t get it right the first time. Whatever happened to papal infallibility?
Just thought I’d add Irfan Yusuf’s blog is a fine one. I’ve had it on the Catallaxy blogroll for ages now.
Also worth checking out is Austrolabe which is another Australian Muslim blog, though one with libertarian leanings, judging from their blogroll
http://austrolabe.com/
The Pope has said he is sorry for THE REACTION to his comments. What is now needed is for some Muslim warlock to apologise for the many people murdered in any given day by disciples of Islam’s so-called “prophet” pursuant to what they see as the will of their moon-god, Allah. They could start by apologising on behalf of the RoP he-men who shot an elderly nun in the back in Somalia.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/subtle-scholar-but-what-an-inept-politician/2006/09/17/1158431582819.html
Blokes in dresses fighting. Should be more of it.
Silkworm, you may be a lonely Trot, attempting spectacularly unsuccessful entryism, but that’s absolutely no excuse for dismissing the rich ironic insights inherent in, “the Pope has called our religion violent. We must kill him!
Were it not for the murder of a nun in Somalia, it would be Pythonesque.
I actually don’t think the Pope’s speech had a lot to do with Islam – it was a poorly chosen example to make a point about reason and faith, and had much more to do with his views on relativism and the crisis of European culture than Islam. The key to its interpretation is that the Pope is not a diplomat, and doesn’t care much for politics. Anyway, I’ll write something about that so silkworm can have his spray.
Err, whatever happened to facts? The pronouncements of Popes to University seminars are not infallible – only ex cathedra statements on matters of faith and doctrine are. There has been precisely one infallible definition (of the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary) since Vatican I defined the conditions for Papal infallibility (which is better seen in its ecclesiastical context anyway, but there’s another story).
For those interested, the text of the Pope’s address is here:
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=83303&eng=y
How many left wing blogs have condemned the anti-Islamic statements by the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus in 1391? That’s who the quote was from. Benedict has made it clear that he wasn’t endorsing it.
Poor Irfan used to be a member of the Liberal party. For his sins, his blog attracts a whole gaggle of under-employed tax-eating Liberal ‘Uglies’ staffers who have nothing better to do with their time than leave obsecenities on his blog. He takes it like a gentleman. I would have threatened to have them outed and shamed long ago.
Jason Soon:
I did point out the flaws as I saw them: âRemarkable for the disorganised and rambling blunderbuss approach to all who provoke his ire.â?
Read the article linked to above at OLO, it is verging on incoherency with a malignant overtone. Is it not obvious? It should be.
For a hoot I strongly suggest trawling through his comment history at that site as well.
The man is a crank of the first order and you can easily demonstrate this for yourself, with a little effort.
Here’s my take on the Pope’s address:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/09/18/what-then-does-pope-benedict-mean/
Speaking of Muslim blogs, the Dervish blog has been off air for at least 3 months. Maybe it should be taken off the LP blog list.
CL, you’re not a very jolly Christian, are you? If meekness is a prerequisite for getting a seat in the big bearded burbler’s mansion of many rooms then I’m afraid you’ll end in the basement with the moon God. So maybe you should be a little bit nicer to him.
I’ve been meaning to cull the blogroll for sites no longer updated, but it would be quite a task as it’s so long these days. It’s a pity Maryam isn’t blogging actively – hers was a good place.
Funny how the Iranian President calls for the extermination of Jews and even hosts a Holocaust denial carnival in Tehran and Islam’s “moderate majority” says absolutely nothing; no demands for apologies or recantations. Zip. Indeed, Mad Mahmoud is welcomed in “moderate” Islamic countries like Indonesia (which slaughterd 150,000 east Timorese according to the UN) as a kind of Muslim rock star.
The Pope quotes a long-dead ruler in a disquisition on reason and violence and just about every Islamic nation, organisation, individual, terrorist and fruitcake in the world calls for him either to bow down and apologise or be killed. Slay Those Who Say Islam Is Violent! The Pope’s lesson for the world has been utterly masterful.
Islam, I’m afraid, is a deeply ill religion. The hopeful possibility is that it isn’t really on the rise but that these are the symptoms of a cult in its death throes.
I enjoy reading Irfan’s entries.
Mark: “…How many left wing blogs have condemned the anti-Islamic statements by the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus in 1391?”
From the way I understand it, any Byzantine Emperor who *wasn’t* making anti-Islamic statements woulda been guilty of failure of simple due diligence. I mean, c’mon. I reckon Chief Crazy Horse made a couple of anti-American statements in his time, too.
Jason Soon: I read the link to Irfan’s blog covering the Pope business. As usual, I found it selective, self-serving, and unworthy of serious consideration.
Perhaps those calling for apologies from Muslims for murders of Christians in the wake of the Pope’s comments could point to the apologies made by Christian leaders for Christian massacres of Muslims in Indonesia during the last decade.
Here are some references to these massacres provided by the International crisis Group.
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=3630&l=1
By being providing with these model apologies Muslims would have before them models of Christian repentence. This model might be very salutary in stimulating interfaith harmony.
Do any Christians who happen to read this post know where this apology might be found?
I believe they would be ever so helpful.
By being providing with these model apologies Muslims would have before them models of Christian repentence.
Katz, make that super-dooper decaff.
CL said:
Islam, I’m afraid, is a deeply ill religion. The hopeful possibility is that it isn’t really on the rise but that these are the symptoms of a cult in its death throes.
Indeed it is CL. Spengler at AsiaTimes sums it up nicely
It’s clear that CL doesn’t much like his tactic of the counter example when it is used against him.
Fill it up barista!
Oh I like it. I just think you’re big enough to do your own thing now, dear Katz.
Fascinating article, Peter. Thanks for the link.
And why not CL?
After all, there is a relatively recent precedent.
After indulging in a paroxysm of fanaticism which fuelled internecine slaughter the length and breadth of Europe in the late sixteenth century and into the seventeenth century, Europe’s denominations lost much of their spiritual, doctrinal, and political credibility.
By demanding total conformity, denominations achieved disgust which transmuted in time into a tolerant disregard on the part of Europe’s citizenry for the pretensions of religion.
I wish Muslims worldwide a similar success.
Ecrasez l’infame, mes amis mussulmans!
Just saw Irfan’s post on Andrew Robb:
Oh look out, they’ve issued a letter. If (no, when) it happens again, maybe they should issue a press release. That’ll shut them up for sure.
As I’ve said already, only when terror in the name of Islam becomes outright blasphemy, only when it inspires the kind of curse-your-mother outrage among Muslims will it stop.
Good for you, Katz. A potted history and a comparison drawn from centuries ago to explain the illness of Islam in 2006. Nobody had thought of that before!
Barista, a latte for our pioneer!
CL,
I admire both your insight and your originality.
If only they occurred simultaneously, yould merit some attention.
Barista! Don’t forget the chocolate powder!
I merit your attention regardless. Your obsession with me shows no sign of abating!
Quickly barista – a new leftie equivalence theory depends on that manic caffeine charge!
More self-flattery CL!
Whatever makes you happy.
I merely provided an analogy. Analogies explain nothing. They merely illustrate.
And I didn’t claim originality. The best I can claim is some little elegance of expression.
So, to taws:
After indulging in a paroxysm of fanaticism which fuelled internecine slaughter the length and breadth of [the Islamic world] in the late [twentieth] century and into the [twenty-first] century, [Islam's] denominations lost much of their spiritual, doctrinal, and political credibility.
Do you expect the locus of future events to be very different from this?
And if so, how?
Or do you wish to continue to claim the right to abuse, but not to engage?
Well, your theory that a loss of Christian “credibility” occurred because of religious wars following the Reformation is historical rubbish. Your sunny and patient assumption that a marginalisation of Islam may well occur in about three centuries’ time is slightly weird in an age of nuclear weapons and airliners; moreover, the more positive engagement of religion with secular reason that came to characterise the modus vivendi of Church and State in the West is not encouraged by even the “progressives” who comment on these subjects anway. Their invariable approach to Islamic religious violence is to affirm its inevitability (as they do in relation to Iraq), apologise for its aims (as they do in relation to Hamas and Hezbollah), play down its cultural significance (as they do in relation to the Paris Intifada) or run interference for its pathologies (as they do in relation to Islamic hatred of women). So we have an inherently violent religion being appeased by its enemies and you’re suggesting this portends an Enlightenment in Star Date 2506.
What sort of cafe is this, barista?
But I’ll smoke what Katz is smoking.
Temper, temper. The story was different in different parts of Europe. This is certainly the case in England, where it happened first, in the aftermath of the English Civil War. Interestingly, religious incredulity arose first among the English gentry and trickled down. In France, the aristocracy patronised thinkers and propagandists of the Enlightenment against the stern disapproval of successive Bourbon kings. The French Enlightenment served as the seed bed of secularism for the rest of Europe during and after the French Revolution.
So it’s the timing of my assumption rather than its sunniness that you object to.
Now here’s a farrago of nonsense. What on earth does the opinion of western “progressives” (love the scare quotes BTW) have on what Muslims think of themselves? This is another topic entirely. (Might that topic be “Why we westerners must stop fighting among ourselves and enlist for the Final Crusade”?) Try to stick to the topic CL.
Barista! CL is in no condition for anything grown up. Make him a baby-cino instead!
Sod this for a comments thread. It’s just become a place for a couple of commenters to pursue an ongoing blog-feud.
CL, Katz I suggest you take it somewhere else. There are (ahem) precedents. Comments on this post are now closed.
(Exit Gummo with an empty water bucket).