A Sheiky grasp on reality

It’s early days yet, but we already have a clear winner in the next installment of the Ernie Awards for sexist language and derogatory public statements about women, Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali.

Looking at the edited transcripts there is no way to spin this or hide inside the twin Burqa’s of misquote and misunderstood. We understand all too clearly what he’s saying, and it’s dark ages medieval stuff. He has a Sheiky grasp on Australian reality.

So, let me add my voice to the chorus and plurality of voices in condemning his remarks - obviously nothing but an unreserved apology without explanation is called for.

It’s also important to note that whatever political and social justifications are being served by some sections of the media and community in having the Sheik act as a lightning rod or focal point in the so-called clash of civilisations (in today’s climate of fear if he didn’t exist we’d have to invent him), I prefer to see his comments as bigotry brought on from a very narrowly held world view, something that will no doubt be addressed by his community, a community that we know is more than capable of informing itself about Australian life outside of the Sheik’s narrow perspectives.

Anyway, it’s pretty obvious that he needs to get out a bit more often.

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155 Responses to “A Sheiky grasp on reality”


  1. 1 PhilNo Gravatar

    A note to commenters, I’m home today and will moderate this post, I’ll have no sympathy toward the ususal suspects as far as moderation is concerned, if I think something is beyond the pale it will be deleted with no correspondence or claims of censorship entered into. Unlike others I’m quite happy to be a ruthless dictator.

  2. 2 KimNo Gravatar

    Al-Hilali is an embarrassment to his own community. This sort of misogyny should not be tolerated. But nor should the Oz and other culture warriors imply that he’s in some sense representative of an entire community. As people like Waheed Aly have pointed out, his title of “Grand Mufti” is something accorded him by AFIC - an organisation that has its own problems. Part of the issue here is the encouragement of politicians for “ethnic” communities to form “representative” associations - most of which are anything but. The irony is that politics and ethnic patronage and dare I say it, branchstacking in both Labor and Liberal governments have entrenched separatist fools as self-proclaimed “leaders”.

  3. 3 MeredithNo Gravatar

    This is really frightening. I’m getting in the fridge.

  4. 4 GuyNo Gravatar

    Some stupid comments from the Sheik, and it is pretty uncontroversial to say so. But what gets my goat, as both of you have already alluded to, is how the errant words of the Sheik are being used to push the ideological bandwagon of those who just want to piss all over Islam.

    He’s absolutely unrepresentative of Australian Muslims and should not be cast by the mainstream media in the stylised and over-simplified role of “Australian Muslim Pope”.

  5. 5 KateNo Gravatar

    Hilali is a misogynist dickhead.

    Yes, the tone of this thread is certainly raised by my contribution. But I shall go on!

    Nor is this story cheery reading for those of us with a vested interest in gender equality:

    The survey, conducted for the Victorian Health Promotion Foundation, is part of a wider report, Two steps forward, one step backward. It found 40 per cent believed rape resulted from men’s inability to control their need for sex, and half believed, despite the lack of evidence, that women falsified claims of domestic violence to gain a tactical advantage in custody battles.

    Michael Flood, a researcher at La Trobe University and a contributor to the project, said: "Too many people believe men are uncontrollable sexual beasts and women are liars and temptresses." Men, especially from migrant communities and those with traditional views about gender roles, were more likely to have "violence-supportive" views.

    The rise from 9 per cent to 20 per cent in the numbers believing women are as likely as men to be perpetrators of domestic violence was an area where views had hardened, despite contrary evidence.

    Dr Flood attributed the change to campaigns by men’s rights groups. "Men and women are supposed to be equal so it is comforting to some to assume they are equal in assaulting their partners," he said. "But it is a myth."

    The survey also showed one in four believed domestic violence could be excused if the perpetrator was genuinely remorseful.

    One one hand, we have the Sheik equating women to meat claiming men can’t control themselves — like cats. On the other hand, we have substantial minority of the general Australian population thinking that men just can’t control their need for sex and that’s why they rape women.

    I’ll be joining Meredith in the fridge.

  6. 6 RonNo Gravatar

    I get a little tired of the sheik’s excuse that he is was misinterpreted or misunderstood.

    I don’t know why people are demanding an apology from the sheik because any such thing would be a hollow gesture. He has said what he believes and if he apologises this is not going to change his thinking one iota.

  7. 7 KimNo Gravatar

    Let’s hope it’s a really big fridge, Kate. You might find me in there too.

  8. 8 MarkNo Gravatar

    What Ron said.

    There’s enough Muslim voices around saying this guy is a clown and their own worst enemy. Whichever way you read his comments, they’re completely reprehensible. I suspect the true story is that he’s just your garden variety mufti with the limitations of his age and culture and he’s been built up as the “Grand Mufti” or whatever not just by the Murdoch Press but also by people in the community for their own respective political purposes. That doesn’t excuse him from responsibility.

    I agree with Kate - if that survey is representative of the state of gender relations and attitudes in this country, we’re all in trouble - men and women both. But I’m not holding my breath waiting for Howard and the Oz pundits to come out and show some consistency and do the hard work of actually shifting these views about men, women and sex.

  9. 9 LauraNo Gravatar

    Yes Kate, he’s a misogynist dickhead.

    It’s not the fucking cats’ fault either, IM-not-so-HO.

    Maybe, just maybe, after about six weeks cooling off in the fridge with you other pieces of “meat”, I’ll be able to think calmly about this, but let’s have the unreserved withdrawal and apology first.

    He can wiggle it in through the door seals.

  10. 10 FDBNo Gravatar

    An apology would be ‘good form’, but that’s about it. He has to go, or anyone he ‘represents’ will suffer no end of scorn for keeping the fuckwit around.

    Plus he supports the Swans.

    Lousy Freo-hater. Who needs you?

  11. 11 KimNo Gravatar

    Agreed, FDB. You’d think Trad would be cluey enough to realise that defending the indefensible wrecks his own credibility also.

    For defences of the indefensible see this (was misinterpreted, was only talking to old men, translation bad, am not feeling well today, blah blah blah):

    [link]

  12. 12 Christine KeelerNo Gravatar

    FDB, you’re a Dockers supporter? We have to stick together.

  13. 13 The Devil DrinkNo Gravatar

    Don’t worry, the fridge is well stocked with beer and such so you can stay in there indefinitely (or until your mortal bladders require relief).
    Fucken’ hell, I don’t know what you’re all so surprised about. You can’t have religious leaders and not expect ‘em to make arses of themselves in the worst, nastiest and most public ways. Put Al-Hilaly in a small room with the pointyheads from the Westboro Baptist Church (the ones who picket military funerals in the US because they think the Iraq war is divine retribution for the existence of gays and lesbians) and you’d probably have some furious agreement about a lot of things.

  14. 14 KateNo Gravatar

    Modesty. How I hate that word when applied to women.

  15. 15 jcNo Gravatar

    Kim

    Trad, is covering up for him and lying to us. He is our version of the racial group representative… another Al Sharpten.

  16. 16 PhilNo Gravatar

    I get angry about this kind of thing from a males perspective, I would violently disagree with the Shieks (and any other religion) efforts to apply his version of life on my partner.

  17. 17 PhilNo Gravatar

    There may be some truth to that JC, remember though Sharpton has sharpned up his act once the hot glare of publicity was placed on him. I remember the Brawley thing and it was shameless. Here’s hoping the same civilisation occurs to the good Shiek and his friends.

  18. 18 FDBNo Gravatar

    Freo and proud, Christine.

    You’re in Melbourne, right? I’ve got one of those green anchors from the newish trams (found on the road, I swear) and I wear it as a pendant on game day. Like Flavor Flav’s clock, only heavier.

    If you are in Melbourne, drop me a line (I spose LP admin could give you my email?) and come along for the Derby day mixed grudge match that we expats play twice a year. Fun, dangerous and really really pissy.

  19. 19 Gummo TrotskyNo Gravatar

    Nothing to add - it’s all been said eloquently enough by previous commenters.

  20. 20 steve munnNo Gravatar

    Kim sez:

    “You’d think Trad would be cluey enough to realise that defending the indefensible wrecks his own credibility also.”

    Trad is a rather suspect figure and a definite hothead. Remember when he referred to anglo-celtic Australians as the “criminal dregs of white society”? He was also involved in the radical Islamic Youth Movement along with Bilal Khazal. [link]

    And there’s this:

    “JOHN LYONS: Something quite disturbing is happening here in western Sydney. Since the September 11 attacks in America 18 months ago, I’ve made many visits here to monitor the mood of the Muslim community. But something is now changing. Even people regarded as moderate seem to be becoming more hardline. Listen, for example, to the answer given by Sheik Hilali’s spokesman, Keysar Trad, when I asked whether he accepts that Osama bin Laden was behind for those September 11 attacks.

    KEYSAR TRAD: What concerns me in that field is the unfortunate situation that so many of the so-called Bin Laden tapes that we’ve seen so far have been proven to be fabrications. We’ve seen evidence, articles in newspapers to say “Oh look, this last tape that we showed you two weeks ago “is a fabrication.” But, the creation of these tapes, whoever is behind them, does raise doubt with people.” [link]

  21. 21 C.L.No Gravatar

    Howard, Murdoch and sexist Skips worked in to the discussion in less than 20 comments.

    Impressive.

    But no equivalency theory vis-a-vis the Church?

    Disappointing. :(

  22. 22 malNo Gravatar

    I also reckon the Sheik’s just as offensive to men as to women. I rather resent being told that I have the self control of a rutting animal, and that I apparently haven’t got the wherewithal to resist those Satanic “weapons of seduction”.

    On the other hand, I really don’t like these political/media feeding frenzies. The whole ritual of denunciation of this guy all feels a bit too self congratulatory, he’s a misogynist fool, but we’re all right. But, as Kate’s post suggests, it’s not that simple. And far be it for the govt to actually take any sort of critical evaluation of Australian culture - that’d be all a bit too black armband, wouldn’t it?

  23. 23 The Devil DrinkNo Gravatar
  24. 24 Tom DaviesNo Gravatar

    Also see AM for more apologetics from the Lebanese Muslim Assoc. (which runs the mosque the sermon was delivered at)

    the board basically satisfied with the notion that certain statements made by the Mufti was misrepresented, that the mufti was misinterpreted.

    and basically he was taken out of context

    Well it’s not banned. It was an agreement that he in order to prevent any criticism [my emph.], any further criticism he wouldn�t be preaching.

    If you heard the program, Tom Zreika sounded very nervous indeed.

  25. 25 NicMNo Gravatar

    I was impressed by this reaction which might blow away some muslim-women stereotypes:

    Shereen Hassan is a an executive committee member of the Islamic Council of Victoria.

    She is yet to confirm the newspaper’s translation of the Mufti’s address.

    But she says if it is accurate, she is appalled.

    “The comments are absolutely repulsive and offensive to me as a woman. I’m a Muslim woman, I wear a hijab. But I certainly don’t wear the hijab to avoid sexual harassment. I wear it to show my love and devotion to God. Full stop. Not for any other reason,” she said.

    “I definitely will be speaking to him and condemning these comments to his face.

    Al Hilaly spokesman plays down ‘uncovered meat’ comments

  26. 26 Pavlov's CatNo Gravatar

    Howard, Murdoch and sexist Skips worked in to the discussion in less than 20 comments.

    Impressive.

    Not really, C. L. It’s not as if they’re not connected.

  27. 27 KimNo Gravatar

    Agree with most of mal’s comment.

    There’s no doubt that these remarks are deeply insulting to men - and if Kate’s link is correct that many of the non-Islamic population hold similar attitudes then we really should get some strong public leadership on this, Sheik or no Sheik.

  28. 28 Lefty ENo Gravatar

    Going by Hilali’s view on male sexuality, he’s got the wrong gender locked inside the house.

  29. 29 Pavlov's Cat's MeatNo Gravatar

    Cold in here.

    Dark, too.

    And crowded. But it’s lovely to meet make all your acquaintances at last.

  30. 30 skepticlawyerNo Gravatar

    This quote from the research Kate posted concerns me:

    Michael Flood, a researcher at La Trobe University and a contributor to the project, said: “Too many people believe men are uncontrollable sexual beasts and women are liars and temptresses.” Men, especially from migrant communities and those with traditional views about gender roles, were more likely to have “violence-supportive” views.

    It concerns me not only because it provides ammunition to those who would keep Australia white, but because it suggests that there really is some sort of clash of civilisations, and that some men are irredeemable, and unworthy of the name.

  31. 31 skepticlawyerNo Gravatar

    If it’s any help, us libertarians will muster all the firepower we can and start guarding your fridge.

  32. 32 LauraNo Gravatar

    I can take care of myself, thanks. Without guns.

  33. 33 WillNo Gravatar

    Bigoted comment from elderly cleric becomes ‘news’ worldwide. Meanwhile, ‘NATO raid kills 50 Afghan civilians’ (somewhere in the back pages) - no wuzzas. Ever heard the one about sticks and stones? Cos the neo-con commentators and pollies who are outraged by these comments, are the same people happy to see Iraqi women being turned into real ‘meat’. C’mon people, let’s not be slaves to the clash-of-uncivilisations script.

  34. 34 PhilNo Gravatar

    I’ll provide the pig, just so’s you get some shootin’ practice in Helen.

  35. 35 PhilNo Gravatar

    Can’t see how we are that Will, we are all well aware of the carnage going on in Iraq and it’s tangential importance however………..

  36. 36 steve munnNo Gravatar

    There are few things sexier than a woman with a warm gun.

  37. 37 WillNo Gravatar

    I am aware you are aware, and I didn’t mean to imply anyone here was a neocon. No doubt the comments were bigoted and idiotic. But this is a real chip-wrapper story, which is snow-balling in the way Jack Straw’s ‘veil’ remarks did. And what was the result then? This article in medialens says it all:

    [link]

    “Our search found that the words ‘Jack Straw’ and ‘veil’ had been mentioned in 422 articles over the previous nine days. The words ‘Madonna’ and ‘adoption’ had been mentioned in 312 articles. The words ‘Iraq’ and ‘Lancet’ had been mentioned in just 53 articles across the entire British press.”

  38. 38 PhilNo Gravatar

    Meaning exactly what Will? Here at LP and other forums there is ample discussion about Iraq and the carnage there so I’m having trouble understanding your point.

  39. 39 Steve EdneyNo Gravatar

    Phil,

    Be sure that you clear your posts with Will in future so that you don’t let any of the chip wrapper stuff get through and only talk about what he thinks is important.

  40. 40 PhilNo Gravatar

    I want to get back on topic, you know, about shootin’ and pigs and stuff

  41. 41 Alex_MNo Gravatar

    What a jerk. As someone who works in the area of domestic violence prevention, I find his comments beneath contempt. Such idiocy perpetuates the inaccurate belief that rape is about sex.

    There is no place in our society for such opinions, and I hope he loses his tenure in the upcoming Islamic Council elections.

  42. 42 WillNo Gravatar

    My point is that the Sheik’s comments do not deserve the coverage or commentary they are getting. They have become a convenient platform to launch the same tired arguments against multiculturalism, and more specifically to depict Muslims as being backwards and sexually repressed. Of course the Sheik deserves blame for his words, but when the BBC website runs a ‘have your say’ discussion under the question “Is cleric’s apology enough?”, it’s an invitation for more bigotry.

  43. 43 skepticlawyerNo Gravatar
  44. 44 KimNo Gravatar

    I disagree, Will.

    I’ve already made the point and so has Phil in the post that Al-Hilali is not representative of the Islamic community.

    But his comments, as Kate’s contribution indicates, are worryingly representative of opinion not just in his circles but in the broader community.

    We can, and should, therefore, broaden the debate that has already been sparked off by pointing out that women are not “meat” and men not “frisky cats”, whether it’s the Sheik or 40% of Australians who think so.

    It’s possible to do so and combat dog whistling and racism at the same time.

    Not all conversations have to be as black and white as you seem to think they will turn out to be.

  45. 45 steve mNo Gravatar

    Actually Will, we are all grown ups here. How Islam fits in to our multicultural society is a big issue that does deserve attention and plenty of it. Let’s not forget that Hilali is also the clown who described 9/11 as “God’s work against the oppressors”. It says something awfully disturbing that this creature can make the most vile comments and still retain the support of his organisation. I want to know why.

  46. 46 PhilNo Gravatar

    Will, you are wrong.

    I’m missing the bit about where no one knows about the carnage in Iraq and isn’t apalled by it, public sentiment is fore square against the war now, as a result I’d suggest that the media has done a fine job in educating us about Iraq and it’s many horrors.

    A suggested bias that is a constant complaint by the right?

  47. 47 Tom DaviesNo Gravatar

    There is a problem with the coverage — it tends to say “Sheik compares women to meat” rather than “Sheik says rape victims should be jailed for life” and “Sheik says recent gang rape sentences were too harsh.”

  48. 48 WillNo Gravatar

    Phil, I know you want to stay on topic, so I’ll just agree to disagree “that the media has done a fine job in educating us about Iraq and its many horrors”.

    Kim, I take your points - it is quite a relief that LP is a forum where there can be nuanced debate. I don’t want to stifle discussion, but I do question the motives of many high-profile pollies lining up to condemn the remarks. It’s especially rich hearing Howard saying that the comments could cause “lasting damage to the perceptions of that community within the broader Australian community”, even if he’s right.

    Steve M, I also don’t see how the guy retains support, perhaps that won’t last for long.

  49. 49 FaceLiftNo Gravatar

    There are a couple of things which disturbing about response to the Shiek’s comments. Rape was intended as his subject, and he blamed women for 90% of the problem. That is so wrong it is worth his resignation.

    What disturbs me about the response, though, is, first of all, that there is a group of people around the Shiek, amazingly in leadership of a religious organisation, so clearly willing to lie about his intentions, and to defend his position. What else are they prepared to lie about?

    Secondly, while it is good to hear Musl*m voices in opposition to these horrible remarks, why weren’t they so vocal about other controversial, unAustralian comments he has made, particularly to do with 9/11?

  50. 50 KatzNo Gravatar

    Supporters of the war in Iraq and supporters of Hilali have the same problem.

    It is emotionally quite difficult to acknowledge the mistake of a position in which one has made a considerable investment of physical and psychic resources.

    We see several frequent commenters on the Iraq war on this very blog being very conflicted over that struggle between reason and emotion.

    I believe that it is true to say that ridicule and condemnation from others does not smooth the path to acceptance.

    It is usually advisable to accept the sincerity of the opposing, incorrect position and to attempt to reason with persons who hold an incorrect opinion.

    Only when persons demonstrate stubbornness and irrational behaviour should the gloves come off. I don’t believe that Hilali’s supporters are in that unco-operative
    state of mind. Some ofthe press coverage has been a little unhealthy in its eagerness to excoriate and to condemn.

    Sometimes, however, shock treatment is necessary.

  51. 51 Jennifer Cascadia EmphaticNo Gravatar

    It stems from a primitive, specifically pre-phenomenological perspective. A sophisticated perspective admits, “I have such and such a feeling, which comes from my appetites. It is my own feeling, specifically, and it is my own body and mind which creates this feeling. My feeling may be directed to an object ‘out there’ but it originates with me, and I am ultimately responsible for how I deal with it.”

    A much more unsophisticated — primitive — view does not factor in this element of understanding which comes from sophisticated phenomenology. To the unsophisticated primitive (as you rightly point out, dwelling in all “races”), if I feel something, it is because there is “something out there” forcing me to feel it. The reality that I am forced to feel something against my will is unquestioned. To feel an “external force” working upon one’s thinking is to feel the only reality there is. Therefore, to feel lust for a woman is to feel her witchy-magnetic power acting over you and making you do stuff. Unsophisticated minds will not accept that it is not “her” who is causing this feeling, but one’s own mental and emotional responses to her. They have no (or little) self reflexive capabilities. They don’t analyse themselves as complex beings capable of controlling their wills, but instead move around “naturally”.

    –At lot of misogyny comes from male stupidity which has been naturalised as…well, “natural”.

  52. 52 C.L.No Gravatar

    Howard, Murdoch, Baptists, sexist Skips…

    **New**: Neocons, NATO, “Supporters of the war in Iraq”.

    George Pell yet to be wheeled out.

    :(

  53. 53 Bring Back EPNo Gravatar

    Just remember he said this at a mosque full of people but no-one has said anything until now!

  54. 54 ZoeNo Gravatar

    Can we have a quarrantined thread just for Katz and CL, please?

    I think the only other way to sort it out would be with a ruler.

  55. 55 steve munnNo Gravatar

    By God you are appalling, CL. Only a day or two ago you gave Pope John Paul II a kick in the guts for not supporting the Iraq War and for meeting Tariq Aziz.

    Oh, and that vile homophobe George Pell can go fuck himself.

  56. 56 C.L.No Gravatar

    **UPDATE**: George Pell wheeled out.

    :)

  57. 57 Bring Back EPNo Gravatar

    that is apelling

  58. 58 j_p_zNo Gravatar

    Wait, I don’t understand. Why are y’all complaining? Why aren’t you celebrating diversity?

    After all, this is it, folks: the real thing. Finally, at last, here you are, face to face with the genuine multicultural “Other,” and you affect to be horrified that he thinks, well, “other”-wise than you?

    But isn’t that what being “other” really *is*? And moreover, he pays you the ultimate compliment: he thinks *you* are “Other” as well!

    “Wait, hold on!” you say. “*We* can’t be the “Other”! We’re in our own country, in our own culture!” Not if it’s multicultural, you aren’t. Remember? That’s what the word means. So, he says his view of these matters is the word of God, as validated by his reading of his law and scripture. You say he misunderstands the socio-behavioral aspect of sexual crimes, as revealed by your social science findings. But who’s to say who’s really right here? Aren’t they all just constructs?

    I’m with Ron. Why should the fellow “apologize”? He did you the honor of saying exactly what he thinks. Why should he apologize for that? Ought he to submit to, say, a program of ’self-criticism,’ because he disagrees with the pieties of your own particular script? Whoa, this Freedom thing’s a real pain in the ass, innit.

    Celebrate! Celebrate!

  59. 59 KateNo Gravatar

    What a load of strawman bollocks, j_p_z.

  60. 60 j_p_zNo Gravatar

    With respect –

    Which part, exactly, Kate? Why not make an argument instead of calling me names?

  61. 61 FaceLiftNo Gravatar

    You slapped my last comment from about an hour ago into moderation, and it never came out!

  62. 62 PhilNo Gravatar

    Mysoginist statements about women are a multicultural issue?

    But maybe j-p-z is right in one respect, the Sheik is to be commended for sharing his views, just as we and others are to be commended for a critique. Long live diversity!

    This is all in a days work in a democratic society, and is evidence of the balancing and centering effect, through this we discover where the real center lies on any given issue.

    The public hates the war and would like us to get out, that’s the center, and the PM is out of step with that mainstream.

    Hilaly makes stupid statements about women and is condemned by the full spectrum of Aus society, that’s the center of opinion.

    Let’s see how far we can take this.

  63. 63 PhilNo Gravatar

    Sorry Facelift, it’s on autopilot not sure why it trapped you and others. I thought the comment fine though I can’t understand your un-Australian reference. Anyway there it is.

  64. 64 Pavlov's CatNo Gravatar

    After all, this is it, folks: the real thing. Finally, at last, here you are, face to face with the genuine multicultural “Other,�

    J_P_Z, how much do you know about the history of Australia?

  65. 65 KatzNo Gravatar

    PC is correct. Australians have been encountering (not confronting) and assimilating “others” for a long time. Despite official policies of racism and then of multiculturalism, assimilation has been the overwhelming experience of newcomers to the country.

    And to a large extent this process of assimilation takes place along the lines suggested by Phil:

    This is all in a days work in a democratic society, and is evidence of the balancing and centering effect, through this we discover where the real center lies on any given issue.

    The centre itself is dynamic. People adapt and get by. It’s messy and unprogrammatic. There are many points of conflict but they don’t crystalise.

    To take the Hilali case, Muslims have publicly recoiled. And you can be there’s a lot of private soul-searching going on as well.

    I predict that there will be lots of mostly empty mosques dotting Australian suburbs, just like there are lots of mostly empty Christian churches.

    Religion is a recessive gene in the cultural body of Australia.

  66. 66 RonNo Gravatar

    I am just watching the news and they are interviewing lots of people outside the Lakemba Mosque.

    They LOVE their sheik and think the sun shines out of that place.

  67. 67 PeterTBNo Gravatar

    Does everyone here realise that if the Sheik’s remarks were reported, but there was no tape, then the “out of context” “misquoted” approach would have successfully killed the story within 24hrs? Does anyone know who recorded the sermon?

    Have you all seen the bit in the Sheik’s speech where he pretty clearly references the “Leb Style” gang rapes?

    “, it’s a look, a smile, a conversation, a greeting, a talk, a date, a meeting, a crime, then Long Bay jail. Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years.” Link

  68. 68 YobboNo Gravatar

    To take the Hilali case, Muslims have publicly recoiled.

    Like who exactly? As Ron says, Lakemba mosque members are standing by their man.

    Hilaly might not represent all muslims, but I think its fair to say that he represents those that attend his sermons, which is a fair whack of the muslim population of Sydney, no?

  69. 69 PhilNo Gravatar

    I think I remember reading somewhere that the attendance at a sermon is usually 500, I would’nt be surprised though, the community must feel like they are under a microscope at the moment so a closing of ranks is to be expected…..at least in public statements.

    I’ll be watching SBS now to see what kind of run this gets since their translation pretty well confirmed his comments.

  70. 70 RonNo Gravatar

    Anyone who thinks the sheik is speaking just for himself is sadly mistaken.

    Keyser Trad and the other supporters of the sheik are obviously embarrassed by what he said but not ashamed otherwise they would have sacked him.

  71. 71 j_p_zNo Gravatar

    See, Phil’s got the right idea! As Mister Nat Hentoff used to say, you don’t counter hate speech with proscriptions and censorings, you counter it with –wait for it– MORE SPEECH! By calling on this jerk to apologize and retract his (honestly expressed) words, you are asking him to deny what he actually thinks: you are negating the very ‘being’ of his thought and his speech act. This can lead to no place good; mostly either more lies and feigning, or else defensiveness and needless stiffening. Far better to dissect and anatomize his speech act in the open air, and make a convincing case about what exactly you think is the matter with it. Then let the public decide!

    Don’t fall for the trap of painting yourselves into a corner by being ‘offended’ by stupidity — consider fairly: the Muslims thought Pope Benedict and the Danish cartoonists were every bit as ’stupid’ as you think this guy is about certain kinds of crimes… And their response was a good index of their level of intellectual and civil sophistication. Don’t let the same thing be said for yourselves.

    On a lesser point… Phil — yes, in fact I *do* think (at least potentially) that “misogynist statements about women are a multicultural issue”. Insofar as some cultures are demonstrably more ‘misogynist’ than others in particular effects (not always along the same lines, granted); and insofar as one might, say, believe that misogyny is unacceptable as a baseline value in one’s baseline ‘culture’ (assuming one is prepared to admit that one actually *has* a culture, heh heh), then, yes: you can see how a potential ‘contradiction’ is prepared by an extreme multicultural (as opposed to merely civically tolerant) approach to civil society, in the same way that a dissonance is prepared in Bartok. You gotta be prepared for everything in a free world. (As that great social philosopher Daffy Duck once said, “Keepth them on their toeth.”)

    Pavlov’s Cat: “J_P_Z, how much do you know about the history of Australia?”

    Sadly, not nearly as much I’d like, or ought, to know. But to be clear, I’m talking about the distinction between ‘multiculturalism’ as a benighted ideology and a false god, as opposed to simple multiplicity of human kind as a social fact of life.

    After all, ma chere demoiselle, you’re talking to an American and a New Yorker: I confront and ‘assimilate’ more cultures on my morning stroll to the liquor store than you might in the course of a month. We used to have quite a proud track record on managing these issues over here, until fairly recently; I think that the decay set in when the well-meaning bozos of the multicultural ‘theoretical’ left got their hands on the steering wheel. Oh well.

    ‘Thus the whirligig of Time brings in his revenges!’ — Feste

  72. 72 KatzNo Gravatar

    SBS provided a long roll-call of Muslim opponents of Hilali, including the Victorian Muslim Association.

    Hilali’s toast.

    j_p_z,

    I’m talking about the distinction between ‘multiculturalism’ as a benighted ideology and a false god, as opposed to simple multiplicity of human kind as a social fact of life.

    That’s not a bad approximation of the state of affairs here, give or take the odd inflammatory statement on one side of the cultural divide or another.

    If you want a good insight into real sectarianism in Australia, read this brief bio of Catholic Archbishop Daniel Mannix, especially the bits between Easter 1916 and 1921.

    This was much more serious. And it taught Australians a lesson about religious fanaticism which hasn’t been forgotten.

  73. 73 GregMNo Gravatar

    j_p_z, Katz has given a pretty accurate summary of the process of migrant integration in Australia. Unlike the US, Australian society it doesn’t have a strongly embedded ideology of integration/assimilation, as reflected in the American concept of the Melting Pot and its unifying symbols of flag, constitution and revolutionary foundation and, as Katz has so well pointed out, whatever the official policy, be it the White Australia policy that prevailed up until the mid-1960s or “multiculturalism” from the mid 1970s, the actual on-the-ground reality is that Australians have a “live-and-let live” attitude which is pretty tolerant of difference and, happily, becoming more so. As Katz put it, the centre itself is dynamic. People adapt and get by.

    However there are lines that can’t be crossed and the reaction to the Shiek’s comment indicates that he has crossed one of those lines and is being censured for doing so. In this regard he is not being treated differently than a Victorian County Court judge in the 1990s who was condemned from all quarters for his sentencing remarks to a man convicted of the terrifying rape of a prostitute when he opined that her ordeal was less traumatic than it would have been for a “chaste”woman and that that was a factor to be taken into account in fixing sentence.

  74. 74 PhilNo Gravatar

    Katz, I did call for an apology, unreserved and without explanation because that would be unnecessary, we know that’s what he thinks, but an apology is what civilised folks do when they have offended, it may give them time to pause and reflect……….unfortunately tonight’s news has brought us thjis:

    After midday prayers today, the sheik was besieged by a group of reporters who asked him whether he would bow to demands and quit.

    The Islamic clergyman smiled and shook his head, saying in English: “After we clean the world of the White House first.”

    Recalcitrant? Indeed. So in light of that Naomi’s inflammatory idea may have some merit.

  75. 75 mickNo Gravatar

    As an interesting aside, I first heard news of this nutter’s comments by hearing it in the morning headline bulletin on the radio - here in Austria! I think it’s pretty amazing that some Imam’s comments made in Australia manage to make headline news here. Nothing like a media story that plays to people’s predjudices…

  76. 76 KimNo Gravatar

    Katz is spot on about Mannix’ career and what it reveals about really nasty and oppressive sectarianism in Australia. Its legacies still rear their ugly heads occasionally, and it really wasn’t buried until the 60s.

  77. 77 RonNo Gravatar

    The sheik shows his repentance:

    “After midday prayers today, the sheik was besieged by a group of reporters who asked him whether he would bow to demands and quit.

    The Islamic clergyman smiled and shook his head, saying in English: “After we clean the world of the White House first.”

    His words were greeted by cheers and applause from dozens of supporters among hundreds of worshippers at mosque.

    Several men called out “Allahu akbar” (God is great) as the sheik’s car sped away.”

    [link]

  78. 78 KimNo Gravatar

    As a number of other people have said, let’s get this in perspective. As I understand it, the Sheik is where he is because he enjoys the support of the Lebanese Muslim community around Lakemba. Trad’s interests are tied up in the same community. Both have leveraged this into some sort of political/media role where they are taken to be spokespeople or leaders for all Muslims in Australia. In fact they are not, and the Lebanese Muslims in south west Sydney are a small minority of all Australian Muslims. As I said at the top of the thread, both politicians who’ve stroked these idiots’ egos by anointing them as representatives and the culture warriors in the meejah whose interests are served by having bozos to show up as representatives are part of the problem.

  79. 79 KimNo Gravatar

    The papers today, and other media, have been full of Muslims distancing themselves from this crap.

    I do agree with Will on one thing - some of Howard’s comments appear to be an attempt to do a bit of dog-whistling on the back of this controversy:

    [link]

  80. 80 Pavlov's CatNo Gravatar

    I confront and ‘assimilate’ more cultures on my morning stroll to the liquor store than you might in the course of a month.

    I can only ask again, rhetorically, how much do you know about the history of Australia? While I don’t take strolls to the liquor store in the mornings myself (a worrying remark, I thought), I am likely on a walk around my suburb to encounter at least one of the following: an Aboriginal family, a huge crowd of regulars outside one of two local Russian Orthodox churches, a Vietnamese pharmacist and/or baker (several of both within walking distance), a refugee from one or other of several African countries, a girl or woman in a hijab, the Greek Orthodox priest (permanently dressed for work) who lives around the corner, and the bonkers old Chinese/Russian lady who lives directly across the street.

    I think you missed at least half of my point, which is that even as a New Yorker you probably ought to be thinking twice about condescendingly lecturing (and you are lecturing, and hectoring with it) an entire country, about whose history you’ve just said yourself you know little, on the subject of what it ought or ought not to be doing with or about ‘multiculturalism’ as policy — about the history of which in this country you presumably also know very little.

    I’ve found you an urbane and reasonable sort of voice in this forum up till now, but I’m actually quite offended by the patronising tone of your last two comments and I can only assume it’s been triggered by generally anti-Islamic feeling. I know that certain Australian bloggers and their droogs, to say nothing of our Prime Miniature and his, tend to give the impression that we in Australia regard ourselves as the loyal poodle citizens of some teeny-tiny extra newly-United State … but the rest of us have got news for you.

  81. 81 KimNo Gravatar

    Abdullah Saeed from Melbourne University:

    Australia is a country that has as one of its fundamental values the idea that men and women are equal, an idea that broadly conforms with Koranic instructions and teachings about women and men, notwithstanding the emphasis on inequality in certain Muslim societies.

    Whatever cultural baggage one may bring to this country should not be used as a basis for rejecting one of the fundamental values of Australian society. Practices and beliefs in certain Muslim countries that discriminate against women have no place in Australia. They should not be used to guide the local Muslim community.

    Even under classical Islamic law, and in fact for many Muslim scholars today, Muslims are obliged to respect and abide by the rules and laws of the country that they live in.

    Thus, a Muslim residing in Australia should abide by Australian law. One of the fundamental values of our liberal democratic society is respect for equality of the sexes, and this should be respected by all.

    Unfortunately, some of our religious leaders too often do a disservice to the Muslim community by making ill-conceived comments such as those reportedly made by Hilali.

    At a time when the Muslim community is under the microscope, the last thing Australian Muslims need from any of their leaders is another unwarranted, unjustified and degrading comment about women.

    The reported comments are an insult to women in general and victims of sex crimes in particular.

    This should go without saying but in the present climate it’s worth repeating: they must be condemned by Muslims and non-Muslims, men and women alike.

    [link]

  82. 82 KimNo Gravatar

    I’d also encourage people to read Irfan’s article which Phil linked to in the post:

    [link]

  83. 83 KimNo Gravatar
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