It’s early days yet, but we already have a clear winner in the next installment of the Ernie Awards for sexist language and derogatory public statements about women, Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali.
Looking at the edited transcripts there is no way to spin this or hide inside the twin Burqa’s of misquote and misunderstood. We understand all too clearly what he’s saying, and it’s dark ages medieval stuff. He has a Sheiky grasp on Australian reality.
So, let me add my voice to the chorus and plurality of voices in condemning his remarks – obviously nothing but an unreserved apology without explanation is called for.
It’s also important to note that whatever political and social justifications are being served by some sections of the media and community in having the Sheik act as a lightning rod or focal point in the so-called clash of civilisations (in today’s climate of fear if he didn’t exist we’d have to invent him), I prefer to see his comments as bigotry brought on from a very narrowly held world view, something that will no doubt be addressed by his community, a community that we know is more than capable of informing itself about Australian life outside of the Sheik’s narrow perspectives.
Anyway, it’s pretty obvious that he needs to get out a bit more often.
A note to commenters, I’m home today and will moderate this post, I’ll have no sympathy toward the ususal suspects as far as moderation is concerned, if I think something is beyond the pale it will be deleted with no correspondence or claims of censorship entered into. Unlike others I’m quite happy to be a ruthless dictator.
Al-Hilali is an embarrassment to his own community. This sort of misogyny should not be tolerated. But nor should the Oz and other culture warriors imply that he’s in some sense representative of an entire community. As people like Waheed Aly have pointed out, his title of “Grand Mufti” is something accorded him by AFIC – an organisation that has its own problems. Part of the issue here is the encouragement of politicians for “ethnic” communities to form “representative” associations – most of which are anything but. The irony is that politics and ethnic patronage and dare I say it, branchstacking in both Labor and Liberal governments have entrenched separatist fools as self-proclaimed “leaders”.
This is really frightening. I’m getting in the fridge.
Some stupid comments from the Sheik, and it is pretty uncontroversial to say so. But what gets my goat, as both of you have already alluded to, is how the errant words of the Sheik are being used to push the ideological bandwagon of those who just want to piss all over Islam.
He’s absolutely unrepresentative of Australian Muslims and should not be cast by the mainstream media in the stylised and over-simplified role of “Australian Muslim Pope”.
Hilali is a misogynist dickhead.
Yes, the tone of this thread is certainly raised by my contribution. But I shall go on!
Nor is this story cheery reading for those of us with a vested interest in gender equality:
One one hand, we have the Sheik equating women to meat claiming men can’t control themselves — like cats. On the other hand, we have substantial minority of the general Australian population thinking that men just can’t control their need for sex and that’s why they rape women.
I’ll be joining Meredith in the fridge.
I get a little tired of the sheik’s excuse that he is was misinterpreted or misunderstood.
I don’t know why people are demanding an apology from the sheik because any such thing would be a hollow gesture. He has said what he believes and if he apologises this is not going to change his thinking one iota.
Let’s hope it’s a really big fridge, Kate. You might find me in there too.
What Ron said.
There’s enough Muslim voices around saying this guy is a clown and their own worst enemy. Whichever way you read his comments, they’re completely reprehensible. I suspect the true story is that he’s just your garden variety mufti with the limitations of his age and culture and he’s been built up as the “Grand Mufti” or whatever not just by the Murdoch Press but also by people in the community for their own respective political purposes. That doesn’t excuse him from responsibility.
I agree with Kate – if that survey is representative of the state of gender relations and attitudes in this country, we’re all in trouble – men and women both. But I’m not holding my breath waiting for Howard and the Oz pundits to come out and show some consistency and do the hard work of actually shifting these views about men, women and sex.
Yes Kate, he’s a misogynist dickhead.
It’s not the fucking cats’ fault either, IM-not-so-HO.
Maybe, just maybe, after about six weeks cooling off in the fridge with you other pieces of “meat”, I’ll be able to think calmly about this, but let’s have the unreserved withdrawal and apology first.
He can wiggle it in through the door seals.
An apology would be ‘good form’, but that’s about it. He has to go, or anyone he ‘represents’ will suffer no end of scorn for keeping the fuckwit around.
Plus he supports the Swans.
Lousy Freo-hater. Who needs you?
Agreed, FDB. You’d think Trad would be cluey enough to realise that defending the indefensible wrecks his own credibility also.
For defences of the indefensible see this (was misinterpreted, was only talking to old men, translation bad, am not feeling well today, blah blah blah):
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20653759-662,00.html
FDB, you’re a Dockers supporter? We have to stick together.
Don’t worry, the fridge is well stocked with beer and such so you can stay in there indefinitely (or until your mortal bladders require relief).
Fucken’ hell, I don’t know what you’re all so surprised about. You can’t have religious leaders and not expect ‘em to make arses of themselves in the worst, nastiest and most public ways. Put Al-Hilaly in a small room with the pointyheads from the Westboro Baptist Church (the ones who picket military funerals in the US because they think the Iraq war is divine retribution for the existence of gays and lesbians) and you’d probably have some furious agreement about a lot of things.
Modesty. How I hate that word when applied to women.
Kim
Trad, is covering up for him and lying to us. He is our version of the racial group representative… another Al Sharpten.
I get angry about this kind of thing from a males perspective, I would violently disagree with the Shieks (and any other religion) efforts to apply his version of life on my partner.
There may be some truth to that JC, remember though Sharpton has sharpned up his act once the hot glare of publicity was placed on him. I remember the Brawley thing and it was shameless. Here’s hoping the same civilisation occurs to the good Shiek and his friends.
Freo and proud, Christine.
You’re in Melbourne, right? I’ve got one of those green anchors from the newish trams (found on the road, I swear) and I wear it as a pendant on game day. Like Flavor Flav’s clock, only heavier.
If you are in Melbourne, drop me a line (I spose LP admin could give you my email?) and come along for the Derby day mixed grudge match that we expats play twice a year. Fun, dangerous and really really pissy.
Nothing to add – it’s all been said eloquently enough by previous commenters.
Kim sez:
“You’d think Trad would be cluey enough to realise that defending the indefensible wrecks his own credibility also.”
Trad is a rather suspect figure and a definite hothead. Remember when he referred to anglo-celtic Australians as the “criminal dregs of white society”? He was also involved in the radical Islamic Youth Movement along with Bilal Khazal. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/03/1086203564071.html
And there’s this:
“JOHN LYONS: Something quite disturbing is happening here in western Sydney. Since the September 11 attacks in America 18 months ago, I’ve made many visits here to monitor the mood of the Muslim community. But something is now changing. Even people regarded as moderate seem to be becoming more hardline. Listen, for example, to the answer given by Sheik Hilali’s spokesman, Keysar Trad, when I asked whether he accepts that Osama bin Laden was behind for those September 11 attacks.
KEYSAR TRAD: What concerns me in that field is the unfortunate situation that so many of the so-called Bin Laden tapes that we’ve seen so far have been proven to be fabrications. We’ve seen evidence, articles in newspapers to say “Oh look, this last tape that we showed you two weeks ago “is a fabrication.” But, the creation of these tapes, whoever is behind them, does raise doubt with people.” http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_1239.asp
Howard, Murdoch and sexist Skips worked in to the discussion in less than 20 comments.
Impressive.
But no equivalency theory vis-a-vis the Church?
Disappointing.
I also reckon the Sheik’s just as offensive to men as to women. I rather resent being told that I have the self control of a rutting animal, and that I apparently haven’t got the wherewithal to resist those Satanic “weapons of seduction”.
On the other hand, I really don’t like these political/media feeding frenzies. The whole ritual of denunciation of this guy all feels a bit too self congratulatory, he’s a misogynist fool, but we’re all right. But, as Kate’s post suggests, it’s not that simple. And far be it for the govt to actually take any sort of critical evaluation of Australian culture – that’d be all a bit too black armband, wouldn’t it?
Hmmm, Satanic weapons of seduction.
Also see AM for more apologetics from the Lebanese Muslim Assoc. (which runs the mosque the sermon was delivered at)
If you heard the program, Tom Zreika sounded very nervous indeed.
I was impressed by this reaction which might blow away some muslim-women stereotypes:
Al Hilaly spokesman plays down ‘uncovered meat’ comments
Not really, C. L. It’s not as if they’re not connected.
Agree with most of mal’s comment.
There’s no doubt that these remarks are deeply insulting to men – and if Kate’s link is correct that many of the non-Islamic population hold similar attitudes then we really should get some strong public leadership on this, Sheik or no Sheik.
Going by Hilali’s view on male sexuality, he’s got the wrong gender locked inside the house.
Cold in here.
Dark, too.
And crowded. But it’s lovely to
meetmake all your acquaintances at last.This quote from the research Kate posted concerns me:
It concerns me not only because it provides ammunition to those who would keep Australia white, but because it suggests that there really is some sort of clash of civilisations, and that some men are irredeemable, and unworthy of the name.
If it’s any help, us libertarians will muster all the firepower we can and start guarding your fridge.
I can take care of myself, thanks. Without guns.
Bigoted comment from elderly cleric becomes ‘news’ worldwide. Meanwhile, ‘NATO raid kills 50 Afghan civilians’ (somewhere in the back pages) – no wuzzas. Ever heard the one about sticks and stones? Cos the neo-con commentators and pollies who are outraged by these comments, are the same people happy to see Iraqi women being turned into real ‘meat’. C’mon people, let’s not be slaves to the clash-of-uncivilisations script.
I’ll provide the pig, just so’s you get some shootin’ practice in Helen.
Can’t see how we are that Will, we are all well aware of the carnage going on in Iraq and it’s tangential importance however………..
There are few things sexier than a woman with a warm gun.
I am aware you are aware, and I didn’t mean to imply anyone here was a neocon. No doubt the comments were bigoted and idiotic. But this is a real chip-wrapper story, which is snow-balling in the way Jack Straw’s ‘veil’ remarks did. And what was the result then? This article in medialens says it all:
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/061018_democracy_and_debate.php
“Our search found that the words ‘Jack Straw’ and ‘veil’ had been mentioned in 422 articles over the previous nine days. The words ‘Madonna’ and ‘adoption’ had been mentioned in 312 articles. The words ‘Iraq’ and ‘Lancet’ had been mentioned in just 53 articles across the entire British press.”
Meaning exactly what Will? Here at LP and other forums there is ample discussion about Iraq and the carnage there so I’m having trouble understanding your point.
Phil,
Be sure that you clear your posts with Will in future so that you don’t let any of the chip wrapper stuff get through and only talk about what he thinks is important.
I want to get back on topic, you know, about shootin’ and pigs and stuff
What a jerk. As someone who works in the area of domestic violence prevention, I find his comments beneath contempt. Such idiocy perpetuates the inaccurate belief that rape is about sex.
There is no place in our society for such opinions, and I hope he loses his tenure in the upcoming Islamic Council elections.
My point is that the Sheik’s comments do not deserve the coverage or commentary they are getting. They have become a convenient platform to launch the same tired arguments against multiculturalism, and more specifically to depict Muslims as being backwards and sexually repressed. Of course the Sheik deserves blame for his words, but when the BBC website runs a ‘have your say’ discussion under the question “Is cleric’s apology enough?”, it’s an invitation for more bigotry.
Trackback
I disagree, Will.
I’ve already made the point and so has Phil in the post that Al-Hilali is not representative of the Islamic community.
But his comments, as Kate’s contribution indicates, are worryingly representative of opinion not just in his circles but in the broader community.
We can, and should, therefore, broaden the debate that has already been sparked off by pointing out that women are not “meat” and men not “frisky cats”, whether it’s the Sheik or 40% of Australians who think so.
It’s possible to do so and combat dog whistling and racism at the same time.
Not all conversations have to be as black and white as you seem to think they will turn out to be.
Actually Will, we are all grown ups here. How Islam fits in to our multicultural society is a big issue that does deserve attention and plenty of it. Let’s not forget that Hilali is also the clown who described 9/11 as “God’s work against the oppressors”. It says something awfully disturbing that this creature can make the most vile comments and still retain the support of his organisation. I want to know why.
Will, you are wrong.
I’m missing the bit about where no one knows about the carnage in Iraq and isn’t apalled by it, public sentiment is fore square against the war now, as a result I’d suggest that the media has done a fine job in educating us about Iraq and it’s many horrors.
A suggested bias that is a constant complaint by the right?
There is a problem with the coverage — it tends to say “Sheik compares women to meat” rather than “Sheik says rape victims should be jailed for life” and “Sheik says recent gang rape sentences were too harsh.”
Phil, I know you want to stay on topic, so I’ll just agree to disagree “that the media has done a fine job in educating us about Iraq and its many horrors”.
Kim, I take your points – it is quite a relief that LP is a forum where there can be nuanced debate. I don’t want to stifle discussion, but I do question the motives of many high-profile pollies lining up to condemn the remarks. It’s especially rich hearing Howard saying that the comments could cause “lasting damage to the perceptions of that community within the broader Australian community”, even if he’s right.
Steve M, I also don’t see how the guy retains support, perhaps that won’t last for long.
There are a couple of things which disturbing about response to the Shiek’s comments. Rape was intended as his subject, and he blamed women for 90% of the problem. That is so wrong it is worth his resignation.
What disturbs me about the response, though, is, first of all, that there is a group of people around the Shiek, amazingly in leadership of a religious organisation, so clearly willing to lie about his intentions, and to defend his position. What else are they prepared to lie about?
Secondly, while it is good to hear Musl*m voices in opposition to these horrible remarks, why weren’t they so vocal about other controversial, unAustralian comments he has made, particularly to do with 9/11?
Supporters of the war in Iraq and supporters of Hilali have the same problem.
It is emotionally quite difficult to acknowledge the mistake of a position in which one has made a considerable investment of physical and psychic resources.
We see several frequent commenters on the Iraq war on this very blog being very conflicted over that struggle between reason and emotion.
I believe that it is true to say that ridicule and condemnation from others does not smooth the path to acceptance.
It is usually advisable to accept the sincerity of the opposing, incorrect position and to attempt to reason with persons who hold an incorrect opinion.
Only when persons demonstrate stubbornness and irrational behaviour should the gloves come off. I don’t believe that Hilali’s supporters are in that unco-operative
state of mind. Some ofthe press coverage has been a little unhealthy in its eagerness to excoriate and to condemn.
Sometimes, however, shock treatment is necessary.
It stems from a primitive, specifically pre-phenomenological perspective. A sophisticated perspective admits, “I have such and such a feeling, which comes from my appetites. It is my own feeling, specifically, and it is my own body and mind which creates this feeling. My feeling may be directed to an object ‘out there’ but it originates with me, and I am ultimately responsible for how I deal with it.”
A much more unsophisticated — primitive — view does not factor in this element of understanding which comes from sophisticated phenomenology. To the unsophisticated primitive (as you rightly point out, dwelling in all “races”), if I feel something, it is because there is “something out there” forcing me to feel it. The reality that I am forced to feel something against my will is unquestioned. To feel an “external force” working upon one’s thinking is to feel the only reality there is. Therefore, to feel lust for a woman is to feel her witchy-magnetic power acting over you and making you do stuff. Unsophisticated minds will not accept that it is not “her” who is causing this feeling, but one’s own mental and emotional responses to her. They have no (or little) self reflexive capabilities. They don’t analyse themselves as complex beings capable of controlling their wills, but instead move around “naturally”.
–At lot of misogyny comes from male stupidity which has been naturalised as…well, “natural”.
Howard, Murdoch, Baptists, sexist Skips…
**New**: Neocons, NATO, “Supporters of the war in Iraq”.
George Pell yet to be wheeled out.
Just remember he said this at a mosque full of people but no-one has said anything until now!
Can we have a quarrantined thread just for Katz and CL, please?
I think the only other way to sort it out would be with a ruler.
By God you are appalling, CL. Only a day or two ago you gave Pope John Paul II a kick in the guts for not supporting the Iraq War and for meeting Tariq Aziz.
Oh, and that vile homophobe George Pell can go fuck himself.
**UPDATE**: George Pell wheeled out.
that is apelling
Wait, I don’t understand. Why are y’all complaining? Why aren’t you celebrating diversity?
After all, this is it, folks: the real thing. Finally, at last, here you are, face to face with the genuine multicultural “Other,” and you affect to be horrified that he thinks, well, “other”-wise than you?
But isn’t that what being “other” really *is*? And moreover, he pays you the ultimate compliment: he thinks *you* are “Other” as well!
“Wait, hold on!” you say. “*We* can’t be the “Other”! We’re in our own country, in our own culture!” Not if it’s multicultural, you aren’t. Remember? That’s what the word means. So, he says his view of these matters is the word of God, as validated by his reading of his law and scripture. You say he misunderstands the socio-behavioral aspect of sexual crimes, as revealed by your social science findings. But who’s to say who’s really right here? Aren’t they all just constructs?
I’m with Ron. Why should the fellow “apologize”? He did you the honor of saying exactly what he thinks. Why should he apologize for that? Ought he to submit to, say, a program of ’self-criticism,’ because he disagrees with the pieties of your own particular script? Whoa, this Freedom thing’s a real pain in the ass, innit.
Celebrate! Celebrate!
What a load of strawman bollocks, j_p_z.
With respect –
Which part, exactly, Kate? Why not make an argument instead of calling me names?
You slapped my last comment from about an hour ago into moderation, and it never came out!
Mysoginist statements about women are a multicultural issue?
But maybe j-p-z is right in one respect, the Sheik is to be commended for sharing his views, just as we and others are to be commended for a critique. Long live diversity!
This is all in a days work in a democratic society, and is evidence of the balancing and centering effect, through this we discover where the real center lies on any given issue.
The public hates the war and would like us to get out, that’s the center, and the PM is out of step with that mainstream.
Hilaly makes stupid statements about women and is condemned by the full spectrum of Aus society, that’s the center of opinion.
Let’s see how far we can take this.
Sorry Facelift, it’s on autopilot not sure why it trapped you and others. I thought the comment fine though I can’t understand your un-Australian reference. Anyway there it is.
J_P_Z, how much do you know about the history of Australia?
PC is correct. Australians have been encountering (not confronting) and assimilating “others” for a long time. Despite official policies of racism and then of multiculturalism, assimilation has been the overwhelming experience of newcomers to the country.
And to a large extent this process of assimilation takes place along the lines suggested by Phil:
The centre itself is dynamic. People adapt and get by. It’s messy and unprogrammatic. There are many points of conflict but they don’t crystalise.
To take the Hilali case, Muslims have publicly recoiled. And you can be there’s a lot of private soul-searching going on as well.
I predict that there will be lots of mostly empty mosques dotting Australian suburbs, just like there are lots of mostly empty Christian churches.
Religion is a recessive gene in the cultural body of Australia.
I am just watching the news and they are interviewing lots of people outside the Lakemba Mosque.
They LOVE their sheik and think the sun shines out of that place.
Does everyone here realise that if the Sheik’s remarks were reported, but there was no tape, then the “out of context” “misquoted” approach would have successfully killed the story within 24hrs? Does anyone know who recorded the sermon?
Have you all seen the bit in the Sheik’s speech where he pretty clearly references the “Leb Style” gang rapes?
“, it’s a look, a smile, a conversation, a greeting, a talk, a date, a meeting, a crime, then Long Bay jail. Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years.” Link
Like who exactly? As Ron says, Lakemba mosque members are standing by their man.
Hilaly might not represent all muslims, but I think its fair to say that he represents those that attend his sermons, which is a fair whack of the muslim population of Sydney, no?
I think I remember reading somewhere that the attendance at a sermon is usually 500, I would’nt be surprised though, the community must feel like they are under a microscope at the moment so a closing of ranks is to be expected…..at least in public statements.
I’ll be watching SBS now to see what kind of run this gets since their translation pretty well confirmed his comments.
Anyone who thinks the sheik is speaking just for himself is sadly mistaken.
Keyser Trad and the other supporters of the sheik are obviously embarrassed by what he said but not ashamed otherwise they would have sacked him.
See, Phil’s got the right idea! As Mister Nat Hentoff used to say, you don’t counter hate speech with proscriptions and censorings, you counter it with –wait for it– MORE SPEECH! By calling on this jerk to apologize and retract his (honestly expressed) words, you are asking him to deny what he actually thinks: you are negating the very ‘being’ of his thought and his speech act. This can lead to no place good; mostly either more lies and feigning, or else defensiveness and needless stiffening. Far better to dissect and anatomize his speech act in the open air, and make a convincing case about what exactly you think is the matter with it. Then let the public decide!
Don’t fall for the trap of painting yourselves into a corner by being ‘offended’ by stupidity — consider fairly: the Muslims thought Pope Benedict and the Danish cartoonists were every bit as ’stupid’ as you think this guy is about certain kinds of crimes… And their response was a good index of their level of intellectual and civil sophistication. Don’t let the same thing be said for yourselves.
On a lesser point… Phil — yes, in fact I *do* think (at least potentially) that “misogynist statements about women are a multicultural issue”. Insofar as some cultures are demonstrably more ‘misogynist’ than others in particular effects (not always along the same lines, granted); and insofar as one might, say, believe that misogyny is unacceptable as a baseline value in one’s baseline ‘culture’ (assuming one is prepared to admit that one actually *has* a culture, heh heh), then, yes: you can see how a potential ‘contradiction’ is prepared by an extreme multicultural (as opposed to merely civically tolerant) approach to civil society, in the same way that a dissonance is prepared in Bartok. You gotta be prepared for everything in a free world. (As that great social philosopher Daffy Duck once said, “Keepth them on their toeth.”)
Pavlov’s Cat: “J_P_Z, how much do you know about the history of Australia?”
Sadly, not nearly as much I’d like, or ought, to know. But to be clear, I’m talking about the distinction between ‘multiculturalism’ as a benighted ideology and a false god, as opposed to simple multiplicity of human kind as a social fact of life.
After all, ma chere demoiselle, you’re talking to an American and a New Yorker: I confront and ‘assimilate’ more cultures on my morning stroll to the liquor store than you might in the course of a month. We used to have quite a proud track record on managing these issues over here, until fairly recently; I think that the decay set in when the well-meaning bozos of the multicultural ‘theoretical’ left got their hands on the steering wheel. Oh well.
‘Thus the whirligig of Time brings in his revenges!’ — Feste
SBS provided a long roll-call of Muslim opponents of Hilali, including the Victorian Muslim Association.
Hilali’s toast.
j_p_z,
That’s not a bad approximation of the state of affairs here, give or take the odd inflammatory statement on one side of the cultural divide or another.
If you want a good insight into real sectarianism in Australia, read this brief bio of Catholic Archbishop Daniel Mannix, especially the bits between Easter 1916 and 1921.
This was much more serious. And it taught Australians a lesson about religious fanaticism which hasn’t been forgotten.
j_p_z, Katz has given a pretty accurate summary of the process of migrant integration in Australia. Unlike the US, Australian society it doesn’t have a strongly embedded ideology of integration/assimilation, as reflected in the American concept of the Melting Pot and its unifying symbols of flag, constitution and revolutionary foundation and, as Katz has so well pointed out, whatever the official policy, be it the White Australia policy that prevailed up until the mid-1960s or “multiculturalism” from the mid 1970s, the actual on-the-ground reality is that Australians have a “live-and-let live” attitude which is pretty tolerant of difference and, happily, becoming more so. As Katz put it, the centre itself is dynamic. People adapt and get by.
However there are lines that can’t be crossed and the reaction to the Shiek’s comment indicates that he has crossed one of those lines and is being censured for doing so. In this regard he is not being treated differently than a Victorian County Court judge in the 1990s who was condemned from all quarters for his sentencing remarks to a man convicted of the terrifying rape of a prostitute when he opined that her ordeal was less traumatic than it would have been for a “chaste”woman and that that was a factor to be taken into account in fixing sentence.
Katz, I did call for an apology, unreserved and without explanation because that would be unnecessary, we know that’s what he thinks, but an apology is what civilised folks do when they have offended, it may give them time to pause and reflect……….unfortunately tonight’s news has brought us thjis:
Recalcitrant? Indeed. So in light of that Naomi’s inflammatory idea may have some merit.
As an interesting aside, I first heard news of this nutter’s comments by hearing it in the morning headline bulletin on the radio – here in Austria! I think it’s pretty amazing that some Imam’s comments made in Australia manage to make headline news here. Nothing like a media story that plays to people’s predjudices…
Katz is spot on about Mannix’ career and what it reveals about really nasty and oppressive sectarianism in Australia. Its legacies still rear their ugly heads occasionally, and it really wasn’t buried until the 60s.
The sheik shows his repentance:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/i-wont-quit-says-sheik/2006/10/27/1161749284120.html
As a number of other people have said, let’s get this in perspective. As I understand it, the Sheik is where he is because he enjoys the support of the Lebanese Muslim community around Lakemba. Trad’s interests are tied up in the same community. Both have leveraged this into some sort of political/media role where they are taken to be spokespeople or leaders for all Muslims in Australia. In fact they are not, and the Lebanese Muslims in south west Sydney are a small minority of all Australian Muslims. As I said at the top of the thread, both politicians who’ve stroked these idiots’ egos by anointing them as representatives and the culture warriors in the meejah whose interests are served by having bozos to show up as representatives are part of the problem.
The papers today, and other media, have been full of Muslims distancing themselves from this crap.
I do agree with Will on one thing – some of Howard’s comments appear to be an attempt to do a bit of dog-whistling on the back of this controversy:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20653867-601,00.html
I can only ask again, rhetorically, how much do you know about the history of Australia? While I don’t take strolls to the liquor store in the mornings myself (a worrying remark, I thought), I am likely on a walk around my suburb to encounter at least one of the following: an Aboriginal family, a huge crowd of regulars outside one of two local Russian Orthodox churches, a Vietnamese pharmacist and/or baker (several of both within walking distance), a refugee from one or other of several African countries, a girl or woman in a hijab, the Greek Orthodox priest (permanently dressed for work) who lives around the corner, and the bonkers old Chinese/Russian lady who lives directly across the street.
I think you missed at least half of my point, which is that even as a New Yorker you probably ought to be thinking twice about condescendingly lecturing (and you are lecturing, and hectoring with it) an entire country, about whose history you’ve just said yourself you know little, on the subject of what it ought or ought not to be doing with or about ‘multiculturalism’ as policy — about the history of which in this country you presumably also know very little.
I’ve found you an urbane and reasonable sort of voice in this forum up till now, but I’m actually quite offended by the patronising tone of your last two comments and I can only assume it’s been triggered by generally anti-Islamic feeling. I know that certain Australian bloggers and their droogs, to say nothing of our Prime Miniature and his, tend to give the impression that we in Australia regard ourselves as the loyal poodle citizens of some teeny-tiny extra newly-United State … but the rest of us have got news for you.
Abdullah Saeed from Melbourne University:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20650767-601,00.html
I’d also encourage people to read Irfan’s article which Phil linked to in the post:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5073
Amir has posted this letter to Al-Hilali on the Catallaxy thread. It’s from the Islamic Council of Victoria.
http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=1982#comment-1982
j_p_z said: After all, ma chere demoiselle, you’re talking to an American and a New Yorker: I confront and ‘assimilate’ more cultures on my morning stroll to the liquor store than you might in the course of a month.
j_p_z, sorry but this really shows that you haven’t a clue what urban Australia is actually like. Nobody would expect that you would, as a rule, you do live on the other side of the planet after all. We all like having you around. That goes without saying, I hope. But it’s not a good look to lecture on topics you don’t know too much about.
Have a look at this post about walking around inner west Sydney for a fairly typical inner city scenario:
http://marrickvillia.blogspot.com/2006/10/signs-of-life.html
I get angry about this kind of thing from a males perspective, I would violently disagree with the Shieks (and any other religion) efforts to apply his version of life on my partner.
Phil, if I were male I’d be angry too. The meat analogy was the worst, but comparing men to cats = cats who can’t control their impulses – is the most profound insult to men, too.
I can’t help thinking this person is misanthropic, not just misogynist. Unfortunately there’s some mental illness there, I think.
I do like Naomi’s suggestion – so much so I’ve included it as an update to my post over at Catallaxy. Hilaly and his congregation have got to be called on this crap, and rather than abandoning the field to male commentators, women have to put their point across. With maximum (non-violent) force.
j_p_z also doesn’t really know much about multiculturalism.
(Before breakfast I walked past my elderly Chinese immigrant neighbours tidying their front yard, another elderly Italian lady watering her plants, the house where the Tanzanian family live, another house that seems to be full of Korean students, the shop run by the Chinese immigrant family, the pizza shop run by the Italian-Australians with several staff whose ancestors hailed from somewhere in the sub-continent, and that was just in my block. And I live in the whitest city in Australia.)
It is actually well worth reading what he actually said, and it goes far beyond mysogeny. This is evil stuff:
“Those atheists, people of the book (Christians and Jews), where will they end up? In Surfers Paradise? On the Gold Coast?
“Where will they end up? In hell. And not part-time. For eternity. They are the worst in God’s creation.
[That's all you good folks, left, right, it does not matter, WE are the worst in God's creation]
“Who commits the crimes of theft? The man or the woman? The man. That’s why the man was mentioned before the woman when it comes to theft because his responsibility is providing.
“But when it comes to adultery, it’s 90 per cent the women’s responsibility. Why? Because a woman possesses the weapon of seduction. It is she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It’s she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then it’s a look, then a smile, then a conversation, a greeting, then a conversation, then a date, then a meeting, then a crime, then Long Bay jail. (laughs).
[He laughed here; I find that quite chilling ML]
“Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years. [This is a clear reference to the racially motivated muslim pack-rapists ML]
“But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, scholar al-Rafihi says: ‘If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.’ Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it.”
[The bit about life imprisonment for the rape VICTIM is beyond words ML]
“If you take a kilo of meat, and you don’t put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you’re crazy. Isn’t this true?
“If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.
“If the meat was covered, the cats wouldn’t roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won’t get it.
“If the meat was in the fridge and it (the cat) smelled it, it can bang its head as much as it wants, but it’s no use.
“If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she’s wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don’t happen.
[Again a reference to the 'disaster' of the muslim pack-rapists being caught and punished by the kaffir]
“That’s why he said she owns the weapon of seduction.
“Satan sees women as half his soldiers. You’re my messenger to achieve my needs. Satan tells women you’re my weapon to bring down any stubborn man. There are men that I fail with. But you’re the best of my weapons.
“The woman was behind Satan playing a role when she disobeyed God and went out all dolled up and unveiled and made of herself palatable food that rakes and perverts would race for. She was the reason behind this sin taking place”
So there you go ladies, you are ‘evil’ and ’satanic’ unless hijabbed and imprisoned in your room. Gotta love this charming member of the muslim Brotherhood. This is really rancid stuff, and we do not need this here. If this is a tolerable multicultural value, well, to Hades with multiculturalism.
It was obvious from the interview today on community radio that Hilaly genuinely has NO IDEA what the fuss is about and regards his comment as utterly unremarkable, mainstream stuff.
MarkL
canberra
Oh. My. God.
Hilaly = Mannix.
Cripes Mark L.
Yes, it is obvious that the Sheik has no idea, but your hysterical reaction is hilarious. Seriously dude, I laughed.
He is no doubt in a kind of feedback bubble, but I don’t find his comments any different to those made about blacks in an earlier age, now we’ve almost got over that despite the fact that many folks still show traits of brown man fear.
The issue here is not good, evil or multiculturalism, but bigotry and misogny combined with a probable misreading of religious ideas, add a dose of crazy political times brought on by an illegal war and presto you have folks wetting themselves in manufactured fear.
Pavlov’s Cat — while it’s certainly fair for you to take issue with what I say on the basis of its content, I also certainly didn’t mean to offend you with the nature of my tone; and if I did so, then I do absolutely apologize. Probably I was being a bit too arch; but it’s also true that print doesn’t always register, unless one is a very great artist, certain deliberately breezy tones of voice that are meant to be partly amusing — for instance, the line about my ‘morning stroll to the liquor store’ was a piece of self-deprecating (and fictional) drollery that apparently didn’t play. Same thing with citing my, um, ‘credentials’ — more in the manner of saying, “I’ll see your melting pot, and raise you five more.” But if it came off snide, then I crave your pardon.
I can’t say quite the same for my initial comment alas; sometimes, when the bitter old ghost of Dean Swift is calling you, you just can’t tell the old bugger No. But for you to assume “generally anti-Islamic feeling” on my part is awfully crude and simplistic as well. I think I deserve credit for a little more complexity than that. Remember the wise words of Felix Unger.
But I will say, as regards multiculturalism, that I’m an unapologetic fan of the melting pot, and I think more recent adjustments to that strategy have been more harmful than productive. As I often point out here, I tend to reason more from very general principles and broad observations, so if I was lecturing/hectoring it wasn’t Australia in particular, but what I perceive to be the broad trends in the West at large. And while it’s true I don’t know the precise history of these things in Australia, simply observing this site over time has made me think that Oz participates in some of those trends; to what exact extent of course I wouldn’t know.
Laura/Kate — Although it’s true that there are any number of good ways to define these things, I tend to make a broad and firm distinction between multiculturalism as a specific ideologically-driven policy, and a multi-ethnic society as a simple fact of life. The thing can be parsed in any number of useful ways, but for instance, put it this way: I went to a grade school where at least 8 contending ethnicities were very much visible — yet we were by no means what I think of as ‘multicultural’ — we were all very much the same culture: American. We all spoke the same language, had the same general values, put our country well above our ostensible ‘nations of origin,’ (which we mostly considered quaint and colorful rather than looming and important) and most of our dads were service veterans. When the president came on TV and said ‘My fellow Americans,’ he meant *us*, and we knew it. I’m not confident that the current policies here are producing anything quite like the same effect; but if they are in Australia, then you’d better come over here and give us a lecture tour pronto.
Well at least that eternal question has been answered.
Seriously I’ll do a Gummo and say I’m with his 1:52pm comment. But the posts at Kate’s and tigtog’s blogs are worth reading as well. Misogyny is not a religious issue.
Erm, whats your point CL? That we should only oppose “she was asking for it” rhetoric when Muslims do it?
No thanks. And you can add Hollingworth to that equivalency list you’re generating.
Mind you, at least he resigned.
“It was obvious from the interview today on community radio that Hilaly genuinely has NO IDEA what the fuss is about and regards his comment as utterly unremarkable, mainstream stuff.”
No idea? I wonder. It was interesting how the PR framing moved from late yesterday ( the misunderstood Muff ill in his bed, depressed, with an oxygen bottle) while Keysar Trad ran the now traditional out of context line with allusions to the Sheik being really sorry that we were all ignorant kaffir fucktards to the point that we were making him ill.
Dare I say that the message shifted drastically this morning when our (much maligned) ABC ripped into it? I don’t know whether people heard Fran Kelly tearing Trad’s jugular out and sorting the President of the Lebanese Muslim Association over the “two month stand-down ” bullshit – it was magical. In the meantime the Mufti recovered miraculously and raced off to Friday prayers to rally the troops with his stock “death to America” diversionary tactic, but as the sun went down in Sydney, it was game, set and match.
The Sheik is apparently off to the Haj to recount tales of near annihilation at the hands of filthy, satanic Australian whores who entice young Muslim men into acts of mass fornication but the voices of young Australian muslim women on the ABC today, absolutely rubbishing his ignorant, ill-informed rants, give me great encouragement about the potential waning of his influence. They had listened to the Arabic tape. They knew that the “misunderstood” blather was exactly that and they were angry.
The news here is not all bad.
The sentiments/beliefs/underlying assumptions(whatever) expressed by the Islamic leader are fundamentally the same as those expressed by a former Archbishop/Governor-General.
We slapped the Archbishop by ’sacking’ him from the GG position and at the same time we gave him a pension and expense account that totals (approx) $500 000 a year.
Double standards?? Of course, a friend of the Rodent.
From my point of view, the Mufti’s attack is really about his belief that males’ inability to control basic urges, fundamental as they are, are at the heart of the problem.
But surely civilised humans’ behaviour is about ‘resisting’/'modifying’ urges.
GREAT comment Geoff. Thanks.
Yep Geoff, he/they jumped the shark with this one, you can feel it. His base will be further isolated into a smaller and smaller group of followers, folks will hive off one by one over time until there is no one left ‘preach” to.
It’s good to see that the far right bigots haven’t wasted any time and are now using the sheik’s comments to implicate all Muslim men.
Here’s what that racist, Paul Sheehan, had to say in today’s Herald:
It’s curious how members of the extreme right display an absolute obsession with the prospect of ‘gangs of Muslims going around raping white women’. This puzzles me as the actual occurrence of this phenomenon is rare.
A hallmark of a sick bigoted mind is the belief that certain racial/religious groups are predisposed to sexually abusing ‘our’ women. All sorts of gender, power and racial pathologies are mingled in here.
What merit is there in analysing these problems through the prism of ethnicity?
Why not gender? The transgressors all appear to be male. Why not class? The transgressors all appear to be proletarians.
Why aren’t there calls for Sheehan or Bolt or Ackerman to be sacked for any number of racist, sexist and extremist comments made over the years? I even recall Andrew Bolt calling Madonna a slut in one of his columns a few years ago.
The fact is that rape and other forms of sexual paranoia have been a significant part of Western history.
I agree Phil. And I genuinely don’t think it’s wishful thinking on my part to believe so. Therefore the people who’ve said he’s done Australia a favour by letting us know what he really thinks are right.
But I want him to now make a very full and explicit and complete withdrawal of his comments, no ifs and no buts, so that those few who he still has any influence over are get the message that these views are unacceptable.
“The sentiments/beliefs/underlying assumptions(whatever) expressed by the Islamic leader are fundamentally the same as those expressed by a former Archbishop/Governor-General.”
Nope. Not even in the same ballpark, wpd.
I’m very glad to hear that, Geoff.
Wouldn’t it be nice if misogyny was really confined to one culture or could be attributed to only one set of religious beliefs? If it was, it would be easy to isolate the issue and change the reality that women face as a result of such revolting attitudes.
Unfortunately, Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali simply feels more comfortable in voicing his disgusting beliefs than the other people who share them. And, even more unfortunatley, there are plenty of people in Australia with misogynistic attitudes.
What I am not sure about is whether it is better for them to be out in the open or not. On the one hand, it is useful to have someone say these things outloud so that they can be debated publicly. On the other hand, having them said out loud by an influential figure gives these attitudes power and legitimacy, and may serve to reinforce them in others…
Plus, I would really rather not hear about them. They make me sick to the stomach.
Geoff, I am tempted to ask ‘please explain’. But I won’t.
The point I was trying to make was that personal responsibility for ‘immoral behaviour’ should never be transferred to the behaviour of the ‘other’.
Hollingworth advanced this ‘temptation’ argument as did the Islamic ‘leader’.
I think it is the same ball park. But I stand to be corrected.
C.L., I didn’t read Katz’ comment as comparing Hilali to Mannix. I think s/he was saying that we’d had some very serious sectarianism in Australia before, as part of the point that s/he was making to j_p_z.
And that reading something about Mannix’ life would give a sense of that…
Thank you Kim. That was precisely what I was trying to do.
wpd Hollingworth wrongly tried to mitigate the sins of another by pointing out that the 14YO victim of a rape wasn’t raped by force. Silly, and he resigned.
Hilali amongst other things indicates that he thinks that the repeat perpetrators of violent gang rapes were unfairly convicted, and indirectly that the victims of said rapes ought to be jailed for life. Then he “apologises” for the offence caused without retracting the statements.
See the difference?
Both are examples of “she was asking for it” rhetoric IMHO, Peter.
If you want to know which I thought was worse: Hilali was, sure – on both scale (everyone who doesnt wear a hijab) and lack of contrition. As I said above, At least Hollingworth resigned.
But they reflect similar attitudes. Uncontrolled male urges tempted forth by wicked, fallen women – who are to blame for what happens to them.
Perhaps its a shared Abrahamic concept. Perhaps they’re both just silly old coots. Whatever – bring on the end of these backward ideas, and whoever peddles them.
“Why aren’t there calls for Sheehan or Bolt or Ackerman to be sacked for any number of racist, sexist and extremist comments made over the years? I even recall Andrew Bolt calling Madonna a slut in one of his columns a few years ago.”
Yes delrio, with Victoria’s anti-vilification laws you would expect that the slightest transgression would be prosecuted. Perhaps you’re reading these authors unfairly?
Fair enough LE, but it does not help this discussion to compare the two, and you can be confident that the Sheik’s supporters will take comfort from such comparisons.
While we all live in the same world, and the cultural reach of the US is very long and very powerful, I can say with great confidence that the racial environment in the US is very different from that in Australia.
The predominating component of US consciousness of race is the institution of slavery. Black-white relations in the US are dominated by its consequences and all the meaning of race and colour that developed during its 300 years of operation. This relationship sets the frame for every other interracial relationship in the US.
To prove the cultural power of the US: when the US had its “Freedom Summer” in 1964, in 1965 young white Australians copied these behaviours and rhetoric on their own freedom rides through country NSW. Bob Dylan was heard for the first time in Moree and other country towns at that time. Yet the relationship between Aboriginal and White was very different from the relationship between Black and White in the US South.
Ever since, US public policy has made fitful and often annoying attempts to right the wrongs of the past by identifying and treating minorities and special cases worthy of affirmative action. The language of race and grievance has been written into a myriad facets of public life in the US. These are now a permanent and irremovable part of life in the US.
These policies have had measurable effects on the life chances of many individuals identifiable as belonging to minorities. They also serve to excite grievance from those who feel they are missing out.
And again, Australia dabbled in similar policies, but by no means to the same extent.
Moreover, Australia never had the same colour bar covenants that impeded racial and ethnic mixing in so many American neighbourhoods. These too arose out of segregation, which was the solution adopted when Americans were faced with the fact that ex-slaves were now, amazingly, fellow citizens.
There is no reason for anyone to feel smug about all this. We all have to live with the consequencs of the past. These consequences are beyond our control. What is not beyond our control is what we do about it.
Certainly it helps the discussion, PeterTB. If not for a broadening of the discussion from a boring repetitive denouncement of the beliefs of an isolated man seriously out of step with mainstream culture, then this discussion wouldn’t even be continuing.
We can always find weird and wonderful targets such as Hilali to righteously denounce, if we are in the mood and as we too often are, but to explore issues in detail requires a wider canvas.
And so I thank the honourable LE for his contribution.
What a load of uninformed, culturally naive nitwits you are. The Sheik is right on the money with his analogy and comments here. It’s perfectly obvious to any simpleton that with Muslim men about, holding the views they do, our womenfolk always need to be wrapped up in kevlar burkhas around them. I’m thoroughly disgusted at you unfeeling creeps for not caring about their safety like the Prophet’s mouthpiece so clearly does. Shame on you all and for chrissakes lock up Pavlov’s cat while there’s so much uncovered feminist meat and girliemen around this blog. Fancy thinking the Sheik’s utterings have Whiskas on them. The nerve of you unbelievers. I’m off to get the Imam to point the bone or a fatwand at you or something.
Where’s Zoe when you need her?
I thought you were off on a strategic retreat somewhere with the other defenders of Western Civ, obs?
Grates on JTV, yay!
Oh cool, really?
Love The Grates!
Remember Kim, just keep repeating over and over to yourself- all cultures have something to offer me, all cultures….
And if all else fails girls, just ask the Imam to set you right
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=2224
Hey, don’t you just love the way he points the sheila to some advice he already gave a bloke? Try clicking a few random fatwas for a giggle.
Well, Peter, I dare say partiarchal traditionalists in the Muslim community will take great comfort from those declaring this a ‘Muslim specific’ problem.
It will help them hall those uppity young Muslim women – currently criticising Hilali and his ilk – right into line. “See, its just another attack on the faith”.
Id really like to see this can of worms open from the inside, myself.
Moi aussi.
Also, obs, you’re weird dude.
Just sticking with the comparisons between Hollingworth and Hilali, one thing that annoyed me about Hollingworth was that he sought God’s forgiveness and then pronounced himself forgiven. Somehow that was meant to end the matter. But it didn’t and in the end he went because he couldn’t do his job as GG anymore and no doubt Howard gave him a nudge.
In this we see that Hollingworth at least recognised that he had done something that required forgiveness. And his resignation was a recognition that it was best for the institution and it’s functioning in Australian society.
From Hilali, by contrast, in response to the question about whether he will resign, we get this from Trad:
That quote is from PM this evening. There were two items here and here, both well worth reading.
It seems to me that we are increasingly hearing sane Muslim voices that won’t be silenced.
There’s a big contrast between the two interviews, Brian. And it’s a dumb-assed comment in the one with Trad for the ABC reporter to end with “support within the Muslim community for the Sheik is rock solid”. What she meant was support from his congregation was (or appeared to be – who knows?) – more dumbassed assimilation of the Lakemba mosque with every Muslim in Australia.
I’m sure Sydney-centric media is partly to blame. As have been Sydney porkbarrelling pollies from both sides of politics.
Trad should piss off too.
The other interview does give one hope, as Geoff said too. Let’s hear more from these *largely young and Australian born* Muslim individuals and less from relics like Hilali and Trad.
Hollingworth of course, as a High Anglican, would have believed that he remained a Priest even after he had no church position. I suppose since Islam lacks a clergy, and thus a theology of priesthood, Hilali relies on his position for his religious standing. But he could demonstrate his religious standing surely by devoting himself to useful work rather than foisting his fucked up views on people.
Apologies for the language but I’m mega pissed off with him.
I’m very encouraged that JPZ goes to the bottleshop in the morning. Good man, beat the queues and feed yer shakes, fill your tank with the real soul fuel, satisfy your whiftery ethanological needs and chase. the. dragon. (Cue Tex Perkins: C’mon!)
Now, then. I’m not at all encouraged that so many people this thread herein don’t realise that the only real critical problem with Islam is that they’re not allowed to visit the bottleshop at any time. That’s it, as far as I’m concerned. Mussie men all holding the views they do? About sex? All of them? Let’s see some fucken’ evidence, pocket-newspollers and unlicenced social surveyers. Get some control groups and compare amongst different age- and class-categorised populations, test your questions, vary your possible responses. And then, once you’ve done that, ask the women, because I’m quite sure you’ll find they’ve got some things to say about the matter too.
Sexism is sexism is sexism is sexism. It invariably goes with being a male-only head of any religion with rules about sex, and with misguidedly and irrationally looking up to the same. For fuck’s sakes.
Oh, and Mannix? Good bloke for a social drink, tight in a squeeze, but bitter as fuck about the Prods. As if it ever did anyone any good.
Don’t blame me, it was TEH MULTICULTURALISTS.
Mmmmmmmm Tex Perkins.
J_P_Z:
Granted.
*gracious queenly upward wave of hand: chest-pearls-nose*
True. It was completely out of line and I beg your pardon.
Indeed: the melting pot melts all its contents into the dominant culture. What you’re describing is assimilation; the multicultural policies that began to be formulated here in Australia in the 1970s attempted to go beyond assimilation to genuine plurality. Even before then, most of the (many) Greek and Italian kids I went to school with would have been contemptuous of the idea that their parents, and in some cases their own early childhoods, should be considered no more than ‘quaint and colourful’. I think Katz’s 11.05 comment nails some of the historical differences between the US and Australia on this score.
And yes, as we’ve had shown to us over the last day or two, plurality has its limits. Cultural misogyny is appalling and marks one of the limits of tolerance, and we’ve all always known that. Nobody ever said it was going to be a doddle — especially not TEH FEMINIST HIVE MIND.
And amen to that.
Actually, now that a complete transcipt is available… well, read it for yourself. It’s actually worse than reported.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20656690-601,00.html
MarkL
Canberra
Hysterical, Phil? No, merely realistic. Hilaly has been saying this sort of stuff here and overseas for a quarter of a century, over which time muslim gangs have developed in Sydney, we have had the pack rapes and a hell of a lot of other purely muslim-related criminality develop (the NSWPOL has a middle-eastern crime squad for a good reason). Oddly enough, the MECS has vanishingly few problems with Maronite Lebanese.
Of course, you can prove this to your own satisfaction by taking a walk down Telopea St one evening. You’ll feel the full force of muslim multiculturalism, skips are NOT permitted there, the Telopea Street Boys make sure of that. (Actually, do NOT do this. I would not like to feel I was in any way responsible for your being murdered for being foolish enough to conduct such an act of suicidal stupidity.)
Without denying that there are certain problems with violent and disaffected Young Muslim men, Mark L, I’ll just point out that the police also have a Vietnamese crime squad (and no doubt several other ethnically-based units) and when I grew up there were plenty of pack rapes committed by mainstream Australian youths in football teams.
It’s not a special, unique problem with our Muslim immigrants.
I forgot to add: trackback
Yes, interesting sermon! It’s all there, as reported. he thinks women are 90% to blame for rape and adultery. And other controversial teachings. Including adding blame to women for being behind the men who steal, and responsible for the theft because they force their husbands to get more, more, more. And he clearly gives license to deal firmly with what he calls the ‘polytheists’ (Christians, people who make te Son equal and united to the Father God) because Allah will never forgive them, anyway. And a long explanation on how Allah is not ‘merciful and forgiving’, but mighty and wise’, so cutting off hands for theft is right, and any punishment dished out is right!
a) he really believes this stuff!
b) he teaches it!
c) he won’t recant or repent!
d) it really is dangerous!
e0 he can’t be sacked
No evidence, as I demanded before about Telopea Street Bankstown, MarkL? Wouldn’t want to think you were smearing Bankstown, a rather boring suburban slowly gentrifying and—despite continuing reproductive assaults by young couples—still predominantly old, working class and white suburb.
On Sydey’s middle-eastern crime syndicates, it’s true, they’re good Muslims one and all. Fond of Friday-night booze, blackjack, self-abuse, illicit adulterous fucking, cocaine, car theft and bacon hamburgers the lot of them. God be praised.
It’s not true about the saintly innocence of the middle-eastern Christians in organised crime, by the way.
In moderation again!! Wonder which word triggers this?
(Admin: in this case it was triggered by the word ‘rape’ in your post. Don’t ask me why that is a trigger word: too PC for me.)
Yeah, well rape is a bad thing!
[puts hand up] I’m the administrator who added ‘rape’ to the automoderator, because of one particularly intemperate comment a week or two back that hung around for a while before it was noticed and deleted.
So once again the public and meeja have swallowed this bollicks,not only hook line and sinker,but the 4×4 we arrived at the beach in.If the good Sheik is not a stooge of the Howard government, i will eat shit for a fortnight.This is the type of propaganda only good money can buy.
The C.O.W is getting nowhere in Iraq fast,they are losing public support and the mint is in overdrive printing money.I know lets have another purge on the Muslims.I mean a few punch ups amongst the Skipps and Lebs on Bondi just aint gonna cut it,we gotta create real hate here folks, and what better way than a load of sanctimonious bollicks about the women folk.
My God if the conservatives had their way they still would’nt be able to vote,as one conservative said many years ago VOTE what the fuck was she doing out of the kitchen.
Unfortunately for your appetite, Phill, it’s clear that the Shiek did his own stirring. The frightening thing is that he actually doesn’t know he was so far out of touch with reality. Either that, or he and his supporters are very keen on setting up a definite divide in Australia.
Blaming John Howard for everything is becoming a massive bore.
Phill, are you in some sort of weird comments competition with Observa?
Exactly Phill…just as Howard & the War Party were getting hammered on the Iraq Fiasco along comes the mouthy Mufti…just in time for the TERROR, FEAR, Islamos under the Bed election campaign…King John luvs his citizens peering at each other across the CULTURAL/RELIGIOUS DIVIDE. Nuthin’ like a good dose of HATE to pump up the propaganda volume & rev those Xenophobic engines.
“It’s not a special, unique problem with our Muslim immigrants.”
Rape certainly isn’t. A religious leader attributing responsibility for rape to its victims certainly seems to be.
It’s actually quite possible to be outraged at Hillaly without supporting Howard, the Coalition or the War in Iraq or indeed, opposing Islamic immigration.
Sorry Phill, observa and nasking. According to our responsibilities under the responsible service of alcohol policy and the State licencing laws I’m no longer permitted to serve you anything more. C’mon, I think you two’ve had enough.
D’ya want a taxi home?
Well DEVIL DRINK i think that’s only fair,after all you have been a busy barman, and as you would know, drunks always tell the truth.
Well considering you originally mentioned 3 people…& then saw 2…I reckon our barman is having a problem focusing & needs to stop judging & get me a Tequila Sunrise…:)
or a Pina Colada will do…send the taxi when it rains.
Don’t question the people who serve you food or drinks.
Security?
Oh Devil Drink i think it’s only fair,ring the taxi and you can pay for it.
Oh by the way, a good barmen always knows a drunk always tells the truth
I’m looking for a lift home.
Indeed. And it’s also possible to recognise the true unhyped significance of this man’s place in Australia and thus devote more time and outrage to matters more pressing. (Unless there’s advantage to be had from his 1950s Egyptian village raves filling airwaves and print.)
Oh the bollicks,my head spins from it.So the good Sheik has insulted us?Now let me see insults,so i assume none of the more educated amongst you have never been on a ship or in a shearing shed?yous are such sensitive little creatures.Cor look at the arse on that Ralph,yea i know mate but the tits are sumthin else.But her mate looks like a two bag job one on yours and one on hers in case yours falls off.i reckon she’d be on for a gang bang ,no way mate the last time i seen an arse that big it was pulling a plow.What’s your dream women mate,well bud a flat head and false teeth does it for me.
But you see folks the good Sheik as much as he is an arse hole of the highest order,he is a Muslim,he can’t say that shit and get away with it.
Can he?.The wafflers on this subject are off the planet,i may drink to much to be sure,but the drugs behind some of the comments here are not in my league.And please no insults, the worms that use the above speech patterns are no friends of mine, but unfortunately there are thousands of them.And you just may find some of them in church sundays after a night on the piss.
If the Devil Drink were Grand Mufti of Australia, none of these issues would arise.
I’m heading out Phill…they’re a weird mob…i don’t need no proposition at ground zero…not gonna go flirting tonite…seems sunday is too far away…long time since i’ve had bliss…since the getting of wisdom under this mango tree…tired of the monkey grip on my bad boy bubby…the stork is mine…tired of listening to the odd angry shot in the devil’s playground…i’m headin’ off for cooloongatta gold & Don’s party. I heard Malcolm & the Erskinville kings’ll be there. How ’bout you?…
…but that’s me…the Nostradamus kid…headin’ off to the quiet room…always knockin’ the coca cola kid.
That eye…the sky.
oh…& someone please offer Christine a ride on the way…she’s a nice gal…next stop woodstock anyone?…see ya there.
Nasking,wait a mo i will join you in the land of normal,this is a place for the boys and girls to tell it like it really is,not some fucking fantasy world where the women don’t fart and men don’t have the occasional wank,and lust after that sweet seventeen year old in the school uniform.Yea a belly full of piss and the chase is on.But fuck don’t let it be my daughter it’s always some other poor pricks.
Hospitals all over Oz this morning will have wards full of children, giving birth to other children,and the male partners of most of them will be either in denial,it aint mine,or hauling arse out of the state.But we do love to fantazise about how pure we all are,what bollicks.
ad set piss myself laughing,up until i don’t know say 40 yrs ago, women were covered up to their chins in fucking tea toking soda.And if most blokes were “be true to thyne own self�wouldn’t have it any other way.
The Mufti,knows exactly what he is doing.
The hypocrisy of this subject knows no bounds.
3rd para. should read.must be a gremlin
Up untill say 40 yrs ago,women were covered up to their chins in fucking tea towls and vacume cleaners,you couldn’t see their faces for flour and baking soda.etc.
Ok, it looks like this this tread should come to an end, It doesn’t look like anything of value is left to add. Thanks for the comments folks.