Comments on: The education policy post we had to have http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/ Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:06:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Kim http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198623 Kim Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:25:29 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198623 <blockquote>I think the funding of private schools is not based on the socioeconomic position of the parents but the average wealth of the postcode in which they live. This has the effect of giving the wealthy schools a bit more than they would otherwise get.</blockquote> Brian, that's right, and it was a deliberate shift in the formula in 2001.

I think the funding of private schools is not based on the socioeconomic position of the parents but the average wealth of the postcode in which they live. This has the effect of giving the wealthy schools a bit more than they would otherwise get.

Brian, that’s right, and it was a deliberate shift in the formula in 2001.

]]> By: Brian http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198622 Brian Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:23:44 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198622 John, in schooling people usually think in terms of equality of opportunity. It's hard to argue against it. <a href="http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-31789" rel="nofollow">derrida derider has an interesting statement</a> at Andrew Norton's place. BTW I think there is something wierd about the current formula, but I'm not 100% sure that memory serves. I think the funding of private schools is not based on the socioeconomic position of the parents but the average wealth of the postcode in which they live. This has the effect of giving the wealthy schools a bit more than they would otherwise get. It's also worth noting that the cost of schooling varies according to size of school and geography. Hence a state like Queensland with a dispersed population has a lot of small schools and misses out on the economies of scale. More of the small schools are government schools. Similarly it costs more to build and run schools in remote areas. Again more of the remote schools are government schools. Ditto for special needs schools. You need to be careful when comparing simple per student expenditures. John, in schooling people usually think in terms of equality of opportunity. It’s hard to argue against it.

derrida derider has an interesting statement at Andrew Norton’s place.

BTW I think there is something wierd about the current formula, but I’m not 100% sure that memory serves. I think the funding of private schools is not based on the socioeconomic position of the parents but the average wealth of the postcode in which they live. This has the effect of giving the wealthy schools a bit more than they would otherwise get.

It’s also worth noting that the cost of schooling varies according to size of school and geography. Hence a state like Queensland with a dispersed population has a lot of small schools and misses out on the economies of scale. More of the small schools are government schools.

Similarly it costs more to build and run schools in remote areas. Again more of the remote schools are government schools.

Ditto for special needs schools.

You need to be careful when comparing simple per student expenditures.

]]> By: John Greenfield http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198621 John Greenfield Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:05:22 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198621 Kim Once and for all could you please explain what you mean by "equity?" I thought equity was an ancient and arcane area of the common law. You seem to mean "equality of outcomes." Your itegrity would improve if you said what you mean. "Equity" has become another one of those trade union-interests Orwellian deceptions like "working families." Whatever happened to the "working class?" It is these sorts of deceitful evasions that make folks extremely suspicious of the pomo Left. Kim

Once and for all could you please explain what you mean by “equity?” I thought equity was an ancient and arcane area of the common law. You seem to mean “equality of outcomes.” Your itegrity would improve if you said what you mean.

“Equity” has become another one of those trade union-interests Orwellian deceptions like “working families.” Whatever happened to the “working class?” It is these sorts of deceitful evasions that make folks extremely suspicious of the pomo Left.

]]> By: Damien Eldridge http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198620 Damien Eldridge Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:32:55 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198620 Kim, I suspect that private schools actually save the government money in a sense. At least, they do if you take the current objective of providing a publicly funded education for every child whose parents want them to recieve one as given. To see why, conduct the following thought experiment. What would happen if every single private school was to shut down? I suspect that it would cost much more expenditure on the part of the federal and state governments to extend public education to all of the students currently in private schools. While I'm at it, let me note that there were only two sources listed in the document that was linked in an earlier document. I seem to be in pedantic mode tonight!!! Kim, I suspect that private schools actually save the government money in a sense. At least, they do if you take the current objective of providing a publicly funded education for every child whose parents want them to recieve one as given. To see why, conduct the following thought experiment. What would happen if every single private school was to shut down? I suspect that it would cost much more expenditure on the part of the federal and state governments to extend public education to all of the students currently in private schools.

While I’m at it, let me note that there were only two sources listed in the document that was linked in an earlier document. I seem to be in pedantic mode tonight!!!

]]> By: Damien Eldridge http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198619 Damien Eldridge Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:25:33 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198619 Rather, the document lists the PC document as a source. It also lists other sources. Its one of thos nights i guess!!! Rather, the document lists the PC document as a source. It also lists other sources. Its one of thos nights i guess!!!

]]> By: Damien Eldridge http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198618 Damien Eldridge Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:24:39 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198618 You would think that more recent information would be available. But the document lists the "Productivity Commission’s Steering Committee for the Review of Government Services. Report on Government Services 2006" as the source, so maybe it is not available. Disclosure: I used to work for the Productivity Commission. You would think that more recent information would be available. But the document lists the “Productivity Commission’s Steering Committee for the Review of Government
Services. Report on Government Services 2006″ as the source, so maybe it is not available. Disclosure: I used to work for the Productivity Commission.

]]> By: Damien Eldridge http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198617 Damien Eldridge Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:19:01 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198617 Note also that the document that was linked in one of my earlier comments provides absolute expenditure information for both Australia and Victoria, but it only provides per student information for Victoria. Note also that the document that was linked in one of my earlier comments provides absolute expenditure information for both Australia and Victoria, but it only provides per student information for Victoria.

]]> By: Kim http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198616 Kim Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:11:46 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198616 Yes, point taken, Damien, but I'm wondering if there are more recent figures. What the graphs need for completeness, in the context we're talking about, is an indication of how much private funding both types of schools receive. Otherwise, it's not an accurate picture, because government funding supplements private school funding, and that's the nub of the issue. (And private fundraising for state schools creates inequities too). Yes, point taken, Damien, but I’m wondering if there are more recent figures.

What the graphs need for completeness, in the context we’re talking about, is an indication of how much private funding both types of schools receive. Otherwise, it’s not an accurate picture, because government funding supplements private school funding, and that’s the nub of the issue. (And private fundraising for state schools creates inequities too).

]]> By: Damien Eldridge http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198615 Damien Eldridge Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:10:40 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198615 Note that I found the document that was linked in my previous comment through a web search. I was not involved in its production!!! Since I am making disclosures, I should point out that I attended catholic schools for my primary and secondary education. Note that I found the document that was linked in my previous comment through a web search. I was not involved in its production!!! Since I am making disclosures, I should point out that I attended catholic schools for my primary and secondary education.

]]> By: Damien Eldridge http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198614 Damien Eldridge Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:07:42 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/19/the-education-policy-post-we-had-to-have/#comment-198614 Kim, The following document contains some charts that illustrate the comparison in terms of both absolute expenditure and on a per-student basis: http://www.ais.vic.edu.au/independent/pubs/fundingdetails.pdf . The charts are based on the 2003-2004 figures. Please note that I am NOT accusing you of deliberately trying to mislead people. This is just a case of two similar, but not quite identical, statements suggesting different interpretations. Kim,

The following document contains some charts that illustrate the comparison in terms of both absolute expenditure and on a per-student basis:

http://www.ais.vic.edu.au/independent/pubs/fundingdetails.pdf .

The charts are based on the 2003-2004 figures.

Please note that I am NOT accusing you of deliberately trying to mislead people. This is just a case of two similar, but not quite identical, statements suggesting different interpretations.

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