Craig you said

the sad fact is arts degrees are notorious for producing unemployed graduates

That’s not the fault of the universities but of the AUSTRALIAN corporate sector with their ratbag employment practices and their Phrenology Departments pretending to do recruiting. Spiros asked

But is there any evidence ?

well yes there is but don’t know who might have collected and collated it. [btw, my own BA with major in Chinese is as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike on Australia]

I predict a classical revival. Employers already are bemoanining graduates who cannot spell, who cannot think critically, who cannot bring together complex thoughts on paper and by mouth.

The competitive edge will be those graduates who stand out from the rest of the products of modern university sausage factories and have the skills enabled by a by a broad liberal education model.

It’s not dead yet.

So writes a thrice uni dropout.

I’ll agree the sort of analytical thinking found in BA’s “kicks ass” (with Antonio “the evil right-wing employer”) and that the REAL wasted degrees are the squillions of Business/Commerce/Accounting types who are not trained in anything productive or in thinking likely to promote innovative solutions to our problems).

Close the commerce departments instead.

what about the merit in Universities specialising in what they’re good at?

I’m certainly not against arts and humanities – not by a very long way, in fact I seriously considered doing it somewhere else (I didnt realise QUT had a humanities faculty actually)

I just think the debt figures probably indicate QUT is probably not first choice for people who want to do it – I would think the name alone would give a pretty good indication of the focus here

In the UK and US it’s normal for people to move to a different part of the country to study at the UNi that best suits what they want to do – the focus being more on what they want to study, rather than where they already live, and this has alot to do with the fact that Unis develop reputations in specific fields – my sister moved all the way from London to Warwickshire (near coventry) for Uni and it was the best thing she ever did – she’s having a great time

what’s so wrong with us doing the same here and letting our Unis develop their strengths further rather than the regional approach of offering everything to everyone? Brisbane has certainly come of age and doesnt need to do this any more

If QUT was really so much in the red in humanities it probably indicates the numbers arent supporting it – probably because people dont come here for it

I dont think Coldrake is just doing this on some impulsive whim

I was just reading the leaflet here (why I decided to post again!): “save humanities” in the refectory and there was all this stuff about “attacking political and critical disciplines that question the status quo etc” – that’s just silly – they dont think a fair whack of politicians have Pol Sci degrees?? They just might have gone to ANU or somewhere

I don’t want to cast any aspersions on Creative Industries – where I know and continue to work on research with a number of excellent academic staff, and whose degrees are very worthwhile. What I lament is the legacy of the original decision which sought to separate out CI from a broader Arts education. There’s no doubt, for instance, that media and journalism students could benefit greatly from instruction in sociology, politics and history. I just don’t think that the dichotomisation of “newâ€? and “oldâ€? humanities responds to anything other than corporate branding, managerialism and academic politics at the top echelons of the University.

There’s no reason why it’s an either/or unless you’re Coaldrake.

my main point was about how good the creative industries faculty is, and I think you will find alot of those “creative thinkers” Antonio mentioned will still exist, they will just come from CI instead of humanities

Tyro Rex,

I agree with you about the Arts faculty at UQ. EMSAH has been a bit better at keeping things together. Perhaps the fact that the Dean of the Faculty comes from EMSAH has something to do with it. UQ’s HPRC school is such an appalling disgrace that it genuinely makes me feel sick. One day the story of its seemingly inexorable decline will be made public and those responsible will be held to public account. I really feel sorry for the postgraduates whose future careers are imperiled (doomed?) by the inexcusable behaviour and decision-making that has occurred. What a tragic waste of a once fairly good reputation. Grrr.

These figures for full time employment within five months of graduation from DEST:

Outcomes for Society & Culture graduates (84%) were better than Management & Commerce (82.0%), Natural & Physical Sciences (77.6%), Information Technology (68.6%) and Creative Arts (64.0%) (ibid) (see also graphs on p.5 above).

So it is often said.

But is there any evidence ?

not being funny, but why go to the Queensland university OF TECHNOLOGY if you are after a degree in classics?

I think it’s great that there is a university taking a “real world” approach, and the creative industries faculty is very impressive

people with the kneejerk responses about arts degrees “encouraging people to question the status quo” or whatever obviously havent looked to hard at the CI offerings – you are really over-reacting

anyway the sad fact is arts degrees are notorious for producing unemployed graduates – I’m not saying that means they shouldn’t exist, but I think the approach of QUT is quite refreshing and it is true that there are other great universities here in Qld.

And what on earth is going on at UQ? Somebody told me it was closing its Pure Maths department!!?? WTF? How can a place call itself a university without Mathematics, Classics, or Religious Studies?

Classics is definitely on the way out at UQ.

However apropos to Antonio I wouldn’t say that all of its Arts Faculty is. EMSAH is doing ok — struggling but OK, while HPRC is looking a bit ragged, dead in the water in some areas. My understanding is that EMSAH saw the writing on the wall a few years ago and has made adjustments to suit, and thus making it better off than HPRC which is hitting a wall.

But even EMSAH enrolments are down except in certain subjects such as … GASP … TV & Popular Culture (part of film and tv curriculum). Suck on that one, right wingers. The market calls it.

Thanks for your comments. I have recently taken a faculty position at the University of Queensland in the deeply troubled School of History, Philosophy Religion and Classics and have become increasingly appalled by the mismanagement of that institution. In my School the offerings for second and third year courses are currently being reduced by 50%. I hasten to add that this directive was handed down by the administration without any sort of formal review of the school’s offerings. The official rationale for the cutbacks was that “faculty members require more research time� and “sometimes having more choice does not benefit students�. The paternalism astonishes me! Surely, in a public institution it is at least partly up to the faculty and the students to decide what they want to teach and to be taught. The really ironic thing about all of these restructuring exercises is that they run counter to the one thing that most administrators apparently value: creating productive little workers. Courses in philosophy and history clearly benefit students, not just by enhancing their education, but by teaching critical thinking skills that are valuable in the workplace. I concur with your observation that part of the reason for the cutbacks is that these benefits are difficult to quantify. But that is no excuse for such poor management.

If meaningless word games and double-speak is to be found anywhere in the university it is among the administrators who adopt poorly considered policy directives. I actually think that what is happening to Arts education in Queensland borders on public scandal. If the general public had an inkling of the way the Arts faculty at UQ is being mismanaged (and I suspect that the same goes for QUT) they wouldn’t stand for it.

So what are we to do? In my own case, I’m leaving. Thankfully I have job opportunities elsewhere and see no reason to stand for the incompetence that pervades the administration at UQ.

Generally speaking, I think that both students and the public need to be made more aware of what is happening to higher education in Queensland. If you are a student considering an education at the University of Queensland and you want to be as competitive in the workplace as your rivals graduating from ANU, Melbourne or Sydney Universities then seriously, think twice. If you are a taxpayer funding these institutions, know that your money is being seriously mismanaged by a group of short sighted and down right incompetent administrators.

Incidentally, Adriens comment about being from the “art scene” suggests he’s slightly confused as to what’s being discussed. He’s free to clarify of course, that’s just the impression I’m getting.

The comment was by Jack Strocchi.