This morning’s Sydney Morning Herald carries a “Heckler” column by the unfortunately named Eliza Twaddell which is a paradigm example of something wrong with certain elements of progressive politics.
The article is a pro-vegetarian polemic which exhorts readers to “consider all of the good reasons” to be a vegetarian. Whatever those good reasons are, none of them are stated in Ms. Twaddell’s column. We are not offered a single reason to be smacking our lips at the prospect of a well-prepared meat-free meal. We are not told any of the health and fitness benefits which may be derived from a vegetarian or vegan diet. We are given no advice on how to procure and prepare good quality vegetarian food within a modest budget. Instead we are served a range of reasons (some more persuasive than others) why meat is bad and why those who eat it are either very bad or very silly people.
Far from inspiring carnivores or omnivores to attempt the conversion to vegetarianism or veganism, Ms. Twaddell’s tirade is likely to succeed only in perpetuating a very negative stereotype of vegetarianism and vegetarians – a stereotype which, in the English-speaking world, synergises with the average Anglo-Celt’s formative experience of vegetables as limp, bland-tasting, unimaginatively prepared things which had had the flavour, the nutrition and the daylights boiled out of them, and which we were coerced and/or guilt-tripped into eating by draconian parents and tyrannical boarding school masters.
Ms. Twaddell’s presumption of vegetarian moral superiority, and her unqualified assertion that “Eating meat is bad for the environment” is also not likely to impress Aborigines and other indigenous peoples who have been sustainably hunting and fishing for millennia. The Warumpi Band’s My Island Home would not be improved by substituting “asparagus” for “turtle” in the line that says “and I’m holding that long turtle spear”.
As I previously suggested, this sort of article is an example of a more general malaise of sections of progressive politics. It takes the powerful feminist insight that “the personal is political” and distorts it into the notion that the political is mostly or wholly personal, and further that personal-political rectitude is to be achieved solely by recognising the sinfulness of one’s capitalist/patriarchal/colonial/ecocidal ways and renouncing one’s politically incorrect pleasures in line with the diktat of some self-appointed cultural-political commissar, rather than embracing, in one’s own time and on one’s terms, a tasty, healthy, fun alternative which is also ideologically sound. It prescribes a morality of “don’ts”.
Genuinely democratic and inclusive movements for human and social emancipation and ecological sustainability can do without such self-marginalising elitism.
While not vegetarian, I am certainly sympathetic to the vegetarian point of view and totally agree with your observations here Paul.
I thought the same thing but I also know I would probably have written something of a similar tone (not about vegetarianism) when I was that age. So I benignly moved along and not really inclined to extrapolate much further about it.
You come across as very hot-under-the-collar in your post, Paul, my apologies if I’m wrong.
You reaction seems typical of so many people when confronted with vegetarianism, that I have wonder if it comes from some kind of internalized guilt.
Vegetarians are often accused of proselytizing but I have found the opposite: I spend most of my time defending myself from unwarranted verbal attacks by carnivores.
By the way, SMH ‘Hecklers’ are only given 500 words of space.
“This morning’s Sydney Morning Herald carries a “Hecklerâ€? column by the unfortunately named Eliza Twaddell which is a paradigm example of something wrong with certain elements of progressive politics.”
It’s Heckler for heaven’s sake; not something in which deep analysis or explanation is expected. Your post, while interesting, suffered from something a certain side of politics is alleged to often engage in: the use of inaccessible and pompous language.
Anyway, elitism sucks whatever side of politics engages in it (and they all do). Mocking someone’s name is pretty low-brow. Norton sounds like Nort sounds almost like knob whatever.
The point about politics and the personal was very interesting, and something I’d like to see expanded upon.
“It’s Heckler for heaven’s sake; not something in which deep analysis or explanation is expected.”
Exactly.
Who could give a fat rat’s clacker?
Paul, get a life. Not everything everybody says or writes has to be taken sooooo seriously.
I think there is a serious point worth making about the notion that “the political is the personal” and perhaps Paul is just using this piece as a hook for that purpose.
See also Darlene’s blog!
http://thespinzine.squarespace.com/journal/2007/5/2/tori-amoss-american-doll-posse.html
Got it, Mark.
Plus the other issue I have with the article is not the presence or absence of deep analysis or explanation, but the author’s use of her 500 words to condemn the evils of other people’s dietary choices rather than extol the joys of her own.
Ms. Twaddell’s piece doesn’t warrant being taken too seriously on its own, but it is typical of a syndrome that I’ve seen a fair bit of in social movement politics (and which thoughful activists acknowledge the existence of), and deserving of comment for that reason.
Eh? They’re only people I’ve heard of who live almost wholly on meat and dairy products are the Inuit. I’ve never heard of them being doctrinaire about their diet. Guess one learns something new every day.
Dear Mr Norton,
In light of your recently expressed sentiments, concerning the aims and activities of self-marginalising elites, we assume that you no longer wish to be “one of us” and have therefore rejected you application for membership.
The Committee.
PS, the recruitment sub-committee thought your interpretative dance on the theme of post-structuralist semiotics that supported your application for membership was rather good.
I ain’t so sure that we can actually say that
given the evidence that they may have played a singificant role in exterminating the mammalian and avian megafauna that used to roam the world. This, of course, has nothing do do with being vegetarian in 2007. Me, I eat meat ‘cos I like the taste. There ain’t much better than nice medium rare piece of fillet steak. Espcially when it comes with a side dish of vegetables cooked to that slightly crunchy perfection.
Cheers…
Dear SME,
Thats Dr. Norton, and I can’t dance.:)
“Thats Dr. Norton, and I can’t dance.”
Maybe that is why they found it so interesting
Paul, I think this post is a bit problematic. I don’t agree she’s putting on a display of moral authority. But admittedly it’s very difficult to say because as everyone will probably agree, few topics seem to get people of all persuasions so worked up (and defensive) so quickly as vegetarianism. Accusations of self-righteousness inevitable etc.
For this reason I avoid sharing my personal opinions about the ethics and sustainability of meat-eating. But I think at the same time there is something a bit cowardly about my choice, especially given that meat eating is one of many factors in our overluxurious way of life which we have to very quickly reconsider.
In my opinion she is only saying things that are either obviously personal views with private application (she doesn’t know why anyone would want to eat meat, meat-high diets are not very healthy etc) or things that are not outlandish or ridiculous (meat production produces more greenhouse gases than vegetable food production does – arguable, but not out of hand dismissible.)
Amanda’s point about the writer’s age and the sort of tolerance it calls for is well taken.
Throwing some caution to the winds here:
SUV driving is probably good fun for the people who do it, but I would be saddened to think that the fun-ness of it meant criticism of it had to take the form of talking up a competing fun activity (let’s say bicycling) rather than criticising SUV driving directly, especially if one of the problems I might have with SUV driving is its impact on the world we all share.
I ought to be able to honestly say that a) I don’t understand the appeal myself and b) I think the practice has lamentable effects on the environment, without being condemned out of hand as a killjoy who only wants to interfere in others’ pleasures.
Mick, if you haven’t already, take the plunge and try it blue. Not only does it do full justice to the quality of the meat but you will earn discreet nods of approbation from the waiter and chef. Or satisfying looks of horror from the kids and other squeamish types.
Mick is onto something obvious and important.
Ron, yesterday I was “confronted” by vegetarianism in the form of a large, sumptuous and cheap vegetarian lunch provided by my university’s food cooperative and the Hare Krishnas. I suspect that my post was prompted subliminally by the jarring contrast between this very positive experience and Ms Twaddell’s column. Relating this to Mick’s point, most of us who have grown up in Anglo-Celtic Australian families have had formative encounters with food in which the only part of the meal we enjoyed eating was the meat, chicken or fish, and in which eating the vegetables was unenjoyable and usually coerced. This is a cultural problem which is gradually being overcome. However it is an experience common to much of the Australian populace, for whom the pointy end of Ms Twaddell’s argument personally is that they should give up eating what they enjoy in favour of eating what they learned, as children, not to enjoy.
Relating this further to Laura’s points, whatever the environmental and ethical virtues of vegetarianism/veganism relative to omnivorism, being told about these things is not going to result in people shifting to a diet lower in animal protein unless they can also be persuaded that such a diet will be (a) at least as pleasant and interesting as a high meat diet; (b) at least as good a source of energy and nutrition; (c) practical and affordable to procure and prepare.
I’ve never quite understood the venom rather harmless vegetarians inspire in some quarters.
I guess maybe deep down a lot of us understand that eating meat, if we thought about it carefully, does not sit well with our other ethical viewpoints.*
But let’s stop kicking vegetarians. Jeez, they’re only doing what they think is right. Yes, santimonious holier-than-thou types are a bit boring bit at least they actually care about what they’re doing.
*I personally subscribe to the views espoused in ‘The Omnivore’s Dilemma’ and I think eating meat is not necessarily inconsistent with an ethical lifestyle. However I think modern animal husbandy is often barbaric and that this system is the problem rather than eating meat per se. I still eat meat semi-regularly.
I see no problem with supplementing “mmm, what a tasty carrot” arguments with occasional sticks, so to speak. And who knows? If people are unable to think outside the foods they were fed as children, then they perhaps will respond just as well to stern paternalist lectures as to wheedling cajolings.
Why is vegetarianism associated with being a political progressive?
Some of the most politically conservative people I know are vegetarians. They are not motivated by concern for animals or the environment. They just don’t like to eat meat.
I don’t think it is particularly Spiros. Although the vegos that I know do tend to be left of centre.
Raw meat is disgusting,
tsk, it’s like clay.
The problem is, is that Eliza’s the flip side of the “eeeew you eat tofu” crowd. Really it’s a deeply terrible piece (I know, I know pat on the head and a happy face stamp for the yoof) and if I were a vegetarian, I’d be cringing and if I weren’t cringing, I’d be wondering why I wasn’t.
People are able to make considered choices and achieve good ends in different ways and I don’t think that excludes the option of eating meat. What’s a natural life for and the environmental impact of a sheep?
Indeed, your very bravery, respect amongst the pack and masculine status will be reinforced by this conspicuous carnival.
What is it with blokes feeling that meat is blokey? Does it boil down to being able to put meat on the table?
“I’ve never quite understood the venom rather harmless vegetarians inspire in some quarters.”
Usually only those who, not content with making their own personal decision, feel the need to force their opinions onto others. Usually by stressing everything that is bad about meat and usually ignoring what is good about vegetarianism.
These are the type of people who when when attending a dinner party are not content that their needs have been catered for but storm out ranting and raving because meat has been served in their presence. True story unfortunately!
I’ve always thought vegetarianism as a personal-political stance was pretty soppy and insignificant. Perhaps, it is the peasant ancestry.
But there is no way I would think this piece written by a very young 21 year old is at all objectionable in the way Paul Norton suggests. Why it was published in the SMH is probably a more interesting story. So sorry are the times that I feel heartened at least a strong expression of feeling about something the young women thinks is important for the environment. And of course it is, though she hasn’t really spelt out the case well.
Maybe she’ll get to read Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle and become a leftist. One can only hope.
For real bloke cred, the blue fillet steak should be preceded by a plate of at least half a dozen raw oysters, by way of entree.
In if you don’t see what’s blokey about eating oysters – rather than, say snails – oh, forget it.
I’m reasonably sure it was Christine Anu, not Warumpi Band, although she may have been doing a cover version.
Personally I’ve found vegetarians tend to proselytize about their dietary choices overmuch; I work on the principle that if I’m invited to eat at someone else’s house, I eat what I’m served. I expect something similar when people come to dine at mine.
What is it with blokes feeling that meat is blokey?
It’s overcompensation. You put something on a hotplate and you turn it over and you eat it – it’s not rocket science but if it’s all you can do… but even then they fuck it up. Vegetables are hard.
“What is it with blokes feeling that meat is blokey?”
Og, he a great and mighty hunter. Very strong! Hunt sabre-tooth cat and wild boar, with bow and spear. Very dangerous, hard to do. Og teach sons to hunt. Sons teach their sons. This go on for, Og don’t know, maybe 170,000 years or something. Gets in the blood after a while.
Then some smart-ass start planting grain, ruin whole idea of endless camping trip. Hey, Gog! Let’s hear that great boasting-song you wrote, about how you bravely planted millet in a straight row! Sheesh.
Thanks Paul, thanks Bismarck. I will give it a go and see what the buzz on this style of meat is. Blue, you say. Does that mean raw? Or is it the old cattleman’s request – “wipe its arse, rip off the horns and bung it on the plate?”
Don’t get me wrong, when I was busking in London (as well as maintaining a brown and white habit for me and my manager) the Krishna food was one of those things that kept starvation from becoming an intimate aquaintance. But a nice piece of meat (and I don’t mean the ground up fatty crap that is sold in Hungry Jacks or MacDonalds) is something else. Much as a fresh orange does when winter comes and you are feeling run down and depleted, a bit of red meat sometimes feels essential to your very being and existence. And ain’t no vegetarian ever going to be able to convince me otherwise.
Funny how those caveman tradition pieces never mention Mrs Og, patiently gatherin’ the nuts and berries while the Male Ogs are off chasing deer they’ll never catch etc.
This go on for about 170,000 years too, till some smart chick works out that if you gots enough grain to keep some aside, yous don’t have to eats it all ifs you can plants it you gets grain that grows where you want it, rather than yous have to go looking for it. Which wid the blokes away on one of their interminable hunting trips might get a bit dangerous, if there are any sabre-toothed tigers around – which is usually, because when it comes to delivering on his promises to do his share of the savannah work, Og isn’t that different from a lot of his descendents.
So this smart chick organises the planting of the grains, and teaches the other women about plant husbandry and how to turn fierce hunter Ogs into domesticated stay at home ploughing and planting Ogs, and that’s it for ancient tradition.
Bloody feminists!
If you grow grain, let the seeds partly sprout, grind and then ferment them you get beer. So maybe it was the blokes making beer that started farming… And a dry camping trip is no fun at all.
Skepticlawyer, it was very definitely Neil Murray, of the Warumpi Band.
This post and some of the ensuing comments irritated me into making the most stereotypically vegetarian dinner I could think of. After a little deliberation I settled upon red lentil dahl with homegrown organic kohlrabi accompanied by artichoke, mint, thyme and preserved lemon salad. It’s simmering away gently now, filling the house with the scents of ginger, garlic and cumin, and will shortly be consumed along with a nicely chilled white shiraz.
The kohlrabi is a masterstroke, Laura.
heh
My iceberg lettuce home
My iceberg lettuce home
Is waiting for me…
Kohl Rabi?
One word – celeriac.
Call Any Vegetable.
No one will know
If you don’t want to let ‘em know
No one will know
‘Less it’s you that might tell ‘em so
Call and they’ll come to you
Covered with dew
Vegetables dream
Of responding to you
Standing there
Shiny & proud by your side
Holding your hand
While the neighbors decide
Why is a vegetable
Something to hide?
“Mr. Green Genes”
Eat your greens
Don’t forget your beans
And celery
Don’t forget to bring
Your fake ID
Eat a bunch of these
Magnificent
With sauerkraut
Eat a fig a grape a crumpet too
You’ll pump ‘em right thru
Doo-wee-oo
Eat your shoes
Don’t forget the strings
And socks
Even eat the box
You bought ‘em in
You can eat the truck
That brought ‘em in
Eat the truck and driver and his gloves
Deliciousness!
Nutritiousness!
Worthlessness!
(Zappa/Mothers)
Peanut power; stay ahead,
running through the traffic jam taking in the lead.
Hyperactivity keeps him out of bed.
Deep down he’d like to kick it in the head.
They’ll regret it when they’re dead:
there’s more to life than fun;
he’s a health fanatic; he’s got to run.
Beans, greens and tangerines
and low cholesterol margarines;
his limbs are loose, his teeth are clean;
he’s a high octane fresh-air fiend.
You’ve got to admit he’s keen.
What can you do but be impressed;
he’s a health fanatic. Give it a rest!
John Cooper Clarke
Vegetarians? You’re all communists!*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW0JNadIXwM
*And apart from that delicious Captain Yevgeny Ivanov, I mean that in a bad way of course
Yea Paul et al, vegetarians are in yer face everyday…it’s just over-whelming…McVegan…Kentucky Fried Potato…Vege Burger King…they’re insidious, everywhere you look it’s a Tofu Clown seducing yer kids…& that Ellen & young Simpsons lass just never seem to shut up…crikey, it must be bloody awful to have to listen to that vege SELL day in & day out…?
Considering how busy you must be…& rarely finding time to think about animal cruelty (I mean who does have the time in this dog eat dog world?)& being only reminded by cool vegetarian displays, it’s quite unreasonable that anyone who feels compelled to opine a view of why they decided to try & stop the killing should expect to be read & empathised with. I mean damn, who does she think she is?…if we’re not going to empathise w/ animals why would we w/ her views?
OUTRAGEOUS!
Bloody ignorant of her!…particularly as she has no idea how to seduce you by suppling free a whole bunch of those interesting vegetarian meal recipes…or a list of essential nutrients. Not very Krishna or Buddha of her was it? I think she needs to go to America & learn the art of seduction & the Big sell. Very unprofessional!
Perhaps Paul you should pickup a recipe book w/ nice pics of scrumptious vegetarian meals so you can make that BIG decision? But i’d understand if you didn’t. The obvious look of fear in an animals eyes as they bite the dust…or peer out of their cages & transport trucks… or stand in line to be executed just doesn’t cut it…not when yer gettin’ an overdose of those REAL scenes in the abbatoir every hour of the day.
Vegetarians are like Murdoch…they just don’t stop hammering on. Bit like the Jews too eh?
Long live ‘blut & boden!’
Meat! You soft silly Tellurians don’t know what bloodied flesh is all about.
It is not real meat until you eat it. And then kill it.
Also Og, we need to interface. Soon. Countless Galactic Credits were expended on this whole Chariots of the Sagans project but now we find your swarming spawn worshipping anthropomorphites instead. Not good.
Stop with the breeding, sowing and harvesting otherwise we will reactivate the Herne and Thor Godbots again.
But this whiskeybeer does intrigue us. What else can you do with your seed that is not NSFGC (Not Safe For Galactic Conquest)?
Speak now and avoid death by sunbeam.
Dear Dr Norton,
In relation to your recent letter
1. On the basis of your academic qualifications we were prepared to reconsider your application.
2. On the matter of your dancing, perhaps you should accept the judgement of more experienced interpretative dancers.
Congratulations for achieving membership of our exclusive little circle,
Fraternallly,
The Committee.
Seconded. It’s also very hard for a restaurant to hide poor-quality meat if you order it blue. (Yes, it means almost raw – seared for maybe a minute on each side but pink and bloody inside).
I agree with Paul Norton’s take on the article, especially given its sanctimonious, patronising last line:
Thanks, I will. Glad to have you tell me what a bad person I am. Really makes me want to listen to you.
I love meat, but my best friend is vegetarian, which means that I’ve enjoyed more than my share of vego meals. Some of them can be great these days: ‘Not-bacon’ etc has come a long way from the mid-80s when about the only pre-prepared vego food was the foul Sanitarium Nut Loaf (vegetarian Spam – you had to slide the rubbery mass out of the tin, and then it kept the shape of the tin – including the corrugations on the side), and Tender Bits, which resembled nothing so much as dog food. There was also mock duck, chicken etc from Chinese grocers – small blue tins containing lumps of gluten
One of the best meals I ever had was a hangover-morning fry-up of not-stuff (with hen’s eggs). And I reckon that most ‘junk food’ type meat could be replaced with soy product – deep fry it, or serve it in enough sauce, and most people couldn’t tell the difference.
Hare Krishna food is great. Does anybody else have that big, glossy, hard-backed Hare Krishna cookbook, with lovingly-photographed pictures? That is how you influence people.
While it’s true the original article is only meant to be a lightweight opinion piece, I think it does demonstrate a desire to hector and lecture, rather than persuade. A persuasive article would, as Paul Norton suggests, discuss the ease of preparing good vegetarian meals, and just how good they taste.
Deep-fried salt-and-pepper tofu. Yum.
For those in Brisbane, I recommend the Kuan Yin teahouse on Ann St in the Valley, or the Tea Master, almost opposite it in Cathedral Place. http://www.vegsoc.org.au/restaurants_list.asp?restaurantID=101
As a confirmed meat-eater, I can’t recommend them more highly.
It’s a terrible article. But Paul, I’m surprised you discount the environmental argument. The meat industry is well documented for chewing up a much greater part of the world’s resources (including water – and land clearing in forest areas) than vegetable based food.
That, and the way in which animals are factory farmed and killed, are the two compelling arguments for me. (Yes, I have yet to act on it
)
Helen, I don’t discount the environmental argument about the contemporary meat industry, just the unqualified nature of the statement that eating meat, rather than the scale and methods of industrial meat production, is bad for the environment.
That said, if we were to take nasking’s advice and all “stop the killing” today, we would then have to consider what to do with the many tens of millions of large, hard-hoofed, fodder-devouring, poo-producing cattle, sheep and pigs populating the Australian landscape (not to mention all the chooks), especially as they would no longer be generating a revenue stream to enable the farmers to feed, shelter and vet them. This would not be unproblematic, on environmental, economic, social or humanitarian grounds.
Finally, nasking may wish to consider the wisdom of using the phrase “Long live ‘blut & boden’!”, even ironically, in a piece advocating vegetarianism.
Thanks SME, but you may want to consider creating a special category of membership for people like myself who manage to get themselves denounced both as a communist and a Nazi within the space of a week, courtesy of Jason Soon and nasking.
And this seems like the appropriate thread to link to this story.
The only thing worse than po-faced self-righteousness is lecturing others on the incorrectness of their po-faced self-righteousness.
I’ve never had anyone practicing a vegetarian diet prosletyze or misbehave, neither have I, having adopted the practice myself, ever felt any need to harangue or cajole the omnivorous. I have, however, found that wherever I go, if I don’t accept a snag or a chook leg or whatever, I am immediately branded and my choices discussed derisively, insultingly, for the duration of the event. You want to eat meat? Please, be my guest. But don’t expect me to cater to you, as I don’t expect it of you, and please just shut the hell up if I stick to my dietary election.
How true — I get a lot of it from my sisters, who are both still smokers. Anyone want to hear how I gave up smoking? No, I thought not.
Helen, this to me is where the real argument starts. I was at a reading given by (noted and passionate vegetarian) JM Coetzee on the Australia Day weekend where the theme was ‘growing up in the country’ and he read the amazingly intense description from Boyhood about the killing of a sheep on the farm.
This elicited the shock and horror from most of the audience that I think it was intended to, but having watched the same thing countless times as a small rural child myself, I was just nodding and saying Mm, yes, that’s how you do it. To me the issue isn’t the killing of animals for meat as such, but giving deliberately bred animals wretched lives for bigger profits, which is about cruelty and the failure to recognise the right of a fellow-creature to spend its life in comfort, being properly looked after.
In a small-scale farming enterprise, at least back then, the sheep and chooks got to schlep around in green paddocks having a high old time growing wool and laying eggs. The unlucky ones were quickly and humanely killed, for food, and by the same people who were going to eat them. To me that’s a completely separate isssue from cruelty and/or neglect.
Still, sooner or later, for me, push is going to come to shove on this one.
Gotta say, I never saw the Heckler as a key opinion column. Its a bit of light reading, and an interesting way to keep a finger on the pulse of public opinion. Certainly a higher-quality method than the newscorps’ idea of blog commentary *shudder*. And so I was really disappointed by the quality of that column – it was clearly written by a very young person with little idea of how to make an argument. I’m not a vegetarian myself, but I am vegetarian-friendly, and I know damn well that one can make a very cogent, non-confrontational argument for the virtues of eschewing meat in 500 words. Its even easier to make an argument for eating *less* meat, and demanding that meat animals be treated better. The piece sounded like a Grade 10 health class assignment. I can only assume that all the other heckler submissions for the day were even worse, or that someone at the SMH hates vegetarians and wanted to put the boot in.
I think claiming that the piece represents a decay in progressive political discourse is well and truly over-the-top, but some of the comments in here are… pretty unnecessarily defensive, lets just say.
That’s probably my number one issue with veganism as a poltical argument, Paul, and I think it’s a point which needs more attention if we’re to seriously think about changing agricultural practises.
One thing lucky Queenslanders have is the best veg*n society and forum in Australia:
Vegetarian and Vegan Society of Queensland
i
That’s not going to happen, of course, but everyone meat- or vege-eaters could at least help to alleviate any suffering food animals endure before they are Glad-wrapped at Woolies or Coles by buying free range ‘products’ and/or writing to your state and federal MP.
Pigs sentenced to 10 more cramped years
I’m sorry to say Paul that it i see much of what is being done to animals as similar to that which was inflicted on victims of the NAZI regime.
A lack of freedom & choice. Execution. Experimentation. Being used to entertain. and of course “Arbeit Machts Frei”.
I tend to see all of us as participants…as witnesses…as those who stand by & grumble…but generally put it out of our minds…turn the other cheek. Some even participate in the blood lust…enjoy it…brag about it.
I don’t see you in particular, or anyone else here as a NAZI persay. In fact I applaud you Paul for bringing the topic up…even tho I think the reasoning rather askew.
Indeed. As complex as the War & Global Warming refugee situation…but we are now applying ourselves w/ some vigor to funding & planning for said eventualities…as we do w/ virus outbreaks, energy problems…the list goes on…we are adept at juggling more than a few balls at once…it’s a big ole, interconnected World these days, w/ plenty of think tanks & capital…as you well know.
Furthermore, my use of the ‘Colbert’ style was also an attempt at opening some people’s eyes up to the fact that perhaps when ‘winging’ about vegetarians stuffing their views down their carnivore throats…or vegetarians not marketing their lifestyle choice more effectively…they might consider the reality that vegetarians/vegans MUST continually suffer/tolerate a full bore ‘eat meat’ propaganda & advertising campaign…it is relentless, day in & day out…
Imagine if you will, thru no fault of your own, finding that seemingly the entire Nation has fallen for culinary recipes & fast food that contain cats & dogs…particularly tail & snout. And this obsession goes on & on…I think you’d find it a fairly revolting experience to be exposed to the advertising of this grisly product each time you turned on the TV…or hit a restaurant…or looked at billboards along the road…or listened to the radio…or went to the movies. I think you get the gist of what i’m saying.
A wee bit more empathy by some in power might help the situation.
>>It’s a terrible article.
Helen, I feel compelled to disagree. Sure, it’s not very imaginative…its rather droll in execution…it displays a lack of empathy for others. Eliza probably lacks subtlety & the art of persuasion for some. But she says what she thinks. It’s an opinion…she expresses her earnest lack of understanding as to why others indulge in meat eating. Fair enuff. She’s motivated Paul Norton to start a thread…so imho the piece has been generally effective…:)
…even if it was, & possibly could be, a setup/tactic by the Right-Wing in order to stir up the debate & attempt to divide meat eaters from vegetarians in the Labor Party. To put men off the Green Party. You know the kinda stuff. One only needs to look at the attacks on Gillard & the Feminist response…& the attempts to divide Rudd from the Unions, to realise that a ‘divide & conquer’ campaign, ala Murdoch, is being conducted here. Seen it all before.
I might add, I’m not condemning anyone on this thread…not trying to invoke guilt. Just making a few comments…stating a few facts.
As a child I was rarely provided w/ the opportunity to choose alternative foods. I tended not to question my parent’s beliefs, mainstream assumptions. Most don’t until they are in their teens. Only in one school..& that was in Canada…did I ever hear about animal rights – we were shown a doco that looked at the food chain & gave real insight into the goings on in an abbatoir…it was eye opening.
As a teacher in Australia I rarely felt enough job security or support to bring the issue up in class…tho i did occasionally & copped the wrath of a few parents (so be it)…but i fail to see how Queensland Education can state it provides a wide-ranging education when it compels educators to avoid such an important topic.
Now that there exists a variety of non-meat alternatives I prefer to eat them so as to avoid contributing to the killing & enslavement of animals as much as possible. I’m not preaching from a moral certitude perspective…even as I move each insect I find in the house outdoors instead of spraying them, I’m aware of thousands I may have killed in the past, perhaps even now…I never forget that by consuming dairy, occasionally I’m contributing to the possible penning up of cows…& the deaths of their calves…when I feed the 2 cats who adopted us, I mutter some lame ‘spiritual good tiding’ upon the meat or fish I’m serving them & wish each day the Cat’s biological system could incorporate a 100% vegan diet w/out serious deleterious effects.
It is indeed a complex world. Filled w/ contradictions & chaos…luv & suffering. As a witness & occasional participant in the ‘slaughter’ & ‘enslavement’ process, I do what I can to minimize it. I try my best to improve the situation…as it seems many of you do…in one fashion or the other. But I’m not a ‘denialist’…sometimes I just turn the other cheek…go ‘group think’…accept the inevitability of the suffering…stand outside that concentration camp & wish I’d done more as the smoke drifts ever upwards.
Other times I speak out. I rage.
Eliza did…can we really fault her for that? Provided she’s REAL.
Note: Well said Ron…& great link too.
the vegetarian society link i mean…the other just saddens this ole heart. But it has to be said. Good on ya Ron!
Brilliantly observed, felt and written, Nasking.
I’m not vegetarian and that is probably a measure of my alienation and mindlessness because I agree very much with what you have expressed about other animals and love writers who explain the reverence and respect they feel for them.
Som people are simply affronted by strong opinions on matters social or political. They find it almost an affront, regardless of subject. I can’t understand them either.
The most predatory relations betweeen particular human creatures are, from the standpoint of the whole of life, manifestations of utter dependency. Thus all beings contain each other. The colossal blue whale lives within the being of the tiny krill it consumes by the billion, and vice versa. And so on, upwards, downwards, inwards and outwards, to the edge of the universe.
As a vegan (and a vegetarian by personal choice since the age of 5) this is an issue that I really struggle with.
In my teenage years, I went through the militant vegan phase where I did try to convert people and occasionally confront meat eaters with my opinion of their lifestyle choice. I did actually manage to convert around 5 people, but I probably also pissed off quite a number more by insulting them…
As a young adult I decided to adopt a more “live and let live” approach and I used to declare that I only expected people to live according to their own ethics and to respect my decision to live according to mine. I still got regularly attacked for choosing a vegan lifestyle – with people spending hours trying to find the inconsistency in my lifestyle or just behaving defensively and not letting me enjoy my meal in peace – but generally it was a more peaceful way of being a vegan.
These days I am more committed to inspiring people by showing them how delicious and healthy vegan food can be and how easy it is to make the choice to adopt a cruelty-free lifestyle. However, sometimes I feel that there is something wrong with the fact that I don’t tend to publicly acknowledge the fact that I truly believe that consuming the animal products of factory farming is wrong.
I wouldn’t adopt a “live and let live” approach if the majority of the population decided to murder a particular ethnic group or to lock them up and keep them in appallingly cruel conditions. Yes there is a difference between humans and animals in our human-centric moral system, but sometimes I wonder why I am so much more tolerant of our decision as a society to treat animals in such a cruel manner. Animals, like humans, feel pain. As Peter Singer has said – species-ism is truly the last acceptably form of discrimination and sometimes I am ashamed that I also buy into it simply because it has been so normalised.
I guess I am saying that to some extent I respect people like Eliza who are willing to give voice to these genuine objections to the practice of eating meat. Just because it is so common doesn’t make it OK and if something is wrong then we should be able to speak out against it rather than just having to subtlety convince people to change their ways…
That said, I agree that it might not be the most productive way of creating change in our society.
pass the dutchie, would ya, astarte?
For Zoe:
Lal Ded, 14th century, Kashmiri
Has Julie Bishop been informed of this?
Now this is why I argue with much vigourish in the High Council of Boskone for the Glorious Liberation of Tellus.
Your benighted little ball of mud seem to have an endless supply of Nautch dancers, kiss and tell girls, concubine harvesters, gold miners, folded centres, Vivid girls, leaders of cheer, water nymphos, hooters, Hiltons, ecdysiasts and general hotsy totsy, cha, cha, cha.
If you astartey transmit motion imagery (in color with sound) of your performance to galactic co-ordinates 112Z 39F4 (just aim slighly to left of Alpha Centuri B), I can assure you of a productive life far away from the bentlam plantations when Tellus is absorbed into the Greater Boskone Co-Prosperity Sphere.
It is our cosmic duty to harvest interstellar booty.
23 skidoo, infant human!
To me Eliza is a young person who took up the invitation to write about what made “her blood boil”, as the column specifies. As such she wrote with passion out of experience. That’s OK by me.
Paul, to be honest, I don’t think the piece warrants the analysis you have subjected it to.
On the subject, my wife and I became vegetarians for a time 25 years ago for ethical and health reasons. It just didn’t work out health-wise for us. Now we don’t eat meat every meal and when we do as a rule of thumb it occupies less than a third of the plate.
Ethically I’ve changed my mind a bit. Many animals in Australia, as in range-fed beef, still have a pretty good life, but not when they get sent off to a feed-lot for ‘finishing’, and not when they get sent to the abattoir.
The life of an average ‘chicken’ or hen is worse than ordinary.
So industrial farming has a lot wrong with it. And yes there are issues in relation to global warming.
But we found that we can’t live without meat, though I respect people who can and do, including my daughter. That being the case, we make compromises. Also choices about which campaigns we apply ourselves to and support.
Some commenters have said that I’ve ridden Eliza Twaddell a bit too hard. These comments fall into two categories.
Some suggest that I should have made allowances for her youth and inexperience. With respect, I don’t agree and I think Eliza Twaddell would disagree as well. Twenty-one year olds with strong convictions are a demographic which I’ve had a fair bit to do with over the years (and which, indeed, I was once part of). In my experience they don’t give quarter in the thick of political debate and don’t ask for it – I certainly didn’t – and regard it as insulting and patronising to be offered quarter by older generations on account of their “tender years”.
Others, such as Brian, have commented on the more pertinent issue of whether the article itself warranted the analysis I have put forward. On its own, it probably doesn’t warrant the belting I have given it here, but I reiterate that I didn’t write this post in response to the article in isolation, but in reaction to a political-cultural trend which I saw it as an example of, which is certainly not restricted to the debate about vegetarianism, and which I think harms progressive politics because it is exclusionary and disempowering. Perhaps I can be validly accused of crucifying Eliza Twaddell for the sins of many others.
Perhaps, too, what boiled over in my original post was years of long-suppressed working class ressentiment at the mixture of admonitions and ridicule to which I was often subject as a young activist from a very blue collar working class background participating in largely middle class and upper-middle class social movements (and initially the student movement) because many of my (working class) personal-cultural habits and practices failed to conform to the dominant (upper-middle class) expectations of how a movement activist ought to comport and conduct themself. And in some of these circles conformity to the dominant personal-cultural norms was considered a much more important determinant of whether one was a “good” activist than the quantity and quality of actual political activity one was engaged in.
Finally, some may be surprised to read me claiming such a proletarian background given my tendency to overwrite and hyper-intellectualise. Don’t be. Bright working class kids who come to the humanistic intelligentsia from outside are prone to over-compensate for their class origins by conspicuous displays of their intellectual mastery of the dominant class culture. Think Kevin Rudd. Think Mark Latham before he became ALP leader and over-compensated the other way by conspicuous displays of his westie outsider roots.
I think it’s time to drag this one out, since no-one else has done so yet…
Meat and You: Partners in Freedom
Usually Paul’s comments here save me from posting because he’s said what I thought already, but I have to take issue with you on this one, I’m afraid.
Certainly the article could be better in a bunch of ways, although the lack of space doesn’t really allow for a fuller setting out of some points. However, I think it is quite valid to make allowances for age. I wrote some articles at 21 that I don’t really want publicised, at least without an allowance of my age at the time. I think most people get better at these things with time and that should be taken into account.
I accept that some vegetarians go over the top in their proselytizing, but it really is amazing how aggressive many omnivores are at the idea that someone would voluntarily give up meat. Actually that is not quite true. When I first became vegetarian I made a decision I would not try to push it on everyone else. Most people were not too offended when I mentioned it, until they asked why and I said “environmental reasons”. Oh the outrage!. If it had been for health that would have been fine, and some people thought I had simply become kosher and were fine with that too. However, the idea that I might be giving up meat for an ethical reason immediately turned on torrents of ridicule. Of course the result was that they got the sermon on the negative environmental effects that I had been carefully holding back.
All the above having been said I do accept Paul’s arguement that progressive activists are often their own worst enemies by sermonising about how evil one is if you don’t give something up, rather than trying to make the right thing fun or cool. Which makes the exceptions particularly delightful.
I’m sure the below link will offend some people, and it definitely isn’t worksafe, but I think it is a brilliant (and very funny) way of recruiting vegetarians
http://www.vegporn.com/