I’m sure the below link will offend some people, and it definitely isn’t worksafe, but I think it is a brilliant (and very funny) way of recruiting vegetarians

http://www.vegporn.com/

Certainly the article could be better in a bunch of ways, although the lack of space doesn’t really allow for a fuller setting out of some points. However, I think it is quite valid to make allowances for age. I wrote some articles at 21 that I don’t really want publicised, at least without an allowance of my age at the time. I think most people get better at these things with time and that should be taken into account.

I accept that some vegetarians go over the top in their proselytizing, but it really is amazing how aggressive many omnivores are at the idea that someone would voluntarily give up meat. Actually that is not quite true. When I first became vegetarian I made a decision I would not try to push it on everyone else. Most people were not too offended when I mentioned it, until they asked why and I said “environmental reasons”. Oh the outrage!. If it had been for health that would have been fine, and some people thought I had simply become kosher and were fine with that too. However, the idea that I might be giving up meat for an ethical reason immediately turned on torrents of ridicule. Of course the result was that they got the sermon on the negative environmental effects that I had been carefully holding back.

Meat and You: Partners in Freedom

Some suggest that I should have made allowances for her youth and inexperience. With respect, I don’t agree and I think Eliza Twaddell would disagree as well. Twenty-one year olds with strong convictions are a demographic which I’ve had a fair bit to do with over the years (and which, indeed, I was once part of). In my experience they don’t give quarter in the thick of political debate and don’t ask for it - I certainly didn’t - and regard it as insulting and patronising to be offered quarter by older generations on account of their “tender years”.

Others, such as Brian, have commented on the more pertinent issue of whether the article itself warranted the analysis I have put forward. On its own, it probably doesn’t warrant the belting I have given it here, but I reiterate that I didn’t write this post in response to the article in isolation, but in reaction to a political-cultural trend which I saw it as an example of, which is certainly not restricted to the debate about vegetarianism, and which I think harms progressive politics because it is exclusionary and disempowering. Perhaps I can be validly accused of crucifying Eliza Twaddell for the sins of many others.

Perhaps, too, what boiled over in my original post was years of long-suppressed working class ressentiment at the mixture of admonitions and ridicule to which I was often subject as a young activist from a very blue collar working class background participating in largely middle class and upper-middle class social movements (and initially the student movement) because many of my (working class) personal-cultural habits and practices failed to conform to the dominant (upper-middle class) expectations of how a movement activist ought to comport and conduct themself. And in some of these circles conformity to the dominant personal-cultural norms was considered a much more important determinant of whether one was a “good” activist than the quantity and quality of actual political activity one was engaged in.

Finally, some may be surprised to read me claiming such a proletarian background given my tendency to overwrite and hyper-intellectualise. Don’t be. Bright working class kids who come to the humanistic intelligentsia from outside are prone to over-compensate for their class origins by conspicuous displays of their intellectual mastery of the dominant class culture. Think Kevin Rudd. Think Mark Latham before he became ALP leader and over-compensated the other way by conspicuous displays of his westie outsider roots.

Paul, to be honest, I don’t think the piece warrants the analysis you have subjected it to.

On the subject, my wife and I became vegetarians for a time 25 years ago for ethical and health reasons. It just didn’t work out health-wise for us. Now we don’t eat meat every meal and when we do as a rule of thumb it occupies less than a third of the plate.

Ethically I’ve changed my mind a bit. Many animals in Australia, as in range-fed beef, still have a pretty good life, but not when they get sent off to a feed-lot for ‘finishing’, and not when they get sent to the abattoir.

The life of an average ‘chicken’ or hen is worse than ordinary.

So industrial farming has a lot wrong with it. And yes there are issues in relation to global warming.

But we found that we can’t live without meat, though I respect people who can and do, including my daughter. That being the case, we make compromises. Also choices about which campaigns we apply ourselves to and support.

I began to go naked,
and dance.

Now this is why I argue with much vigourish in the High Council of Boskone for the Glorious Liberation of Tellus.

Your benighted little ball of mud seem to have an endless supply of Nautch dancers, kiss and tell girls, concubine harvesters, gold miners, folded centres, Vivid girls, leaders of cheer, water nymphos, hooters, Hiltons, ecdysiasts and general hotsy totsy, cha, cha, cha.

If you astartey transmit motion imagery (in color with sound) of your performance to galactic co-ordinates 112Z 39F4 (just aim slighly to left of Alpha Centuri B), I can assure you of a productive life far away from the bentlam plantations when Tellus is absorbed into the Greater Boskone Co-Prosperity Sphere.

It is our cosmic duty to harvest interstellar booty.

23 skidoo, infant human!

My teacher told me one thing,
“Live in the soul.�

When that was so,
I began to go naked,
and dance.

Has Julie Bishop been informed of this?

The soul like the moon,
is new, and always new again.

And I have seen the ocean
continuously creating.

Since I scoured my mind
and my body, I too, Lalla,
am new, each moment new.

My teacher told me one thing,
“Live in the soul.”

When that was so,
I began to go naked,
and dance.

Lal Ded, 14th century, Kashmiri

In my teenage years, I went through the militant vegan phase where I did try to convert people and occasionally confront meat eaters with my opinion of their lifestyle choice. I did actually manage to convert around 5 people, but I probably also pissed off quite a number more by insulting them…

As a young adult I decided to adopt a more “live and let live” approach and I used to declare that I only expected people to live according to their own ethics and to respect my decision to live according to mine. I still got regularly attacked for choosing a vegan lifestyle - with people spending hours trying to find the inconsistency in my lifestyle or just behaving defensively and not letting me enjoy my meal in peace - but generally it was a more peaceful way of being a vegan.

These days I am more committed to inspiring people by showing them how delicious and healthy vegan food can be and how easy it is to make the choice to adopt a cruelty-free lifestyle. However, sometimes I feel that there is something wrong with the fact that I don’t tend to publicly acknowledge the fact that I truly believe that consuming the animal products of factory farming is wrong.

I wouldn’t adopt a “live and let live” approach if the majority of the population decided to murder a particular ethnic group or to lock them up and keep them in appallingly cruel conditions. Yes there is a difference between humans and animals in our human-centric moral system, but sometimes I wonder why I am so much more tolerant of our decision as a society to treat animals in such a cruel manner. Animals, like humans, feel pain. As Peter Singer has said - species-ism is truly the last acceptably form of discrimination and sometimes I am ashamed that I also buy into it simply because it has been so normalised.

I guess I am saying that to some extent I respect people like Eliza who are willing to give voice to these genuine objections to the practice of eating meat. Just because it is so common doesn’t make it OK and if something is wrong then we should be able to speak out against it rather than just having to subtlety convince people to change their ways…

That said, I agree that it might not be the most productive way of creating change in our society.

I’m not vegetarian and that is probably a measure of my alienation and mindlessness because I agree very much with what you have expressed about other animals and love writers who explain the reverence and respect they feel for them.

Som people are simply affronted by strong opinions on matters social or political. They find it almost an affront, regardless of subject. I can’t understand them either.

…& great link too.

the vegetarian society link i mean…the other just saddens this ole heart. But it has to be said. Good on ya Ron!

Finally, nasking may wish to consider the wisdom of using the phrase “Long live ‘blut & boden’!�, even ironically, in a piece advocating vegetarianism.

I’m sorry to say Paul that it i see much of what is being done to animals as similar to that which was inflicted on victims of the NAZI regime.

A lack of freedom & choice. Execution. Experimentation. Being used to entertain. and of course “Arbeit Machts Frei”.

I tend to see all of us as participants…as witnesses…as those who stand by & grumble…but generally put it out of our minds…turn the other cheek. Some even participate in the blood lust…enjoy it…brag about it.

I don’t see you in particular, or anyone else here as a NAZI persay. In fact I applaud you Paul for bringing the topic up…even tho I think the reasoning rather askew.

That said, if we were to take nasking’s advice and all “stop the killing� today, we would then have to consider what to do with the many tens of millions of large, hard-hoofed, fodder-devouring, poo-producing cattle, sheep and pigs populating the Australian landscape (not to mention all the chooks), especially as they would no longer be generating a revenue stream to enable the farmers to feed, shelter and vet them. This would not be unproblematic, on environmental, economic, social or humanitarian grounds.

Indeed. As complex as the War & Global Warming refugee situation…but we are now applying ourselves w/ some vigor to funding & planning for said eventualities…as we do w/ virus outbreaks, energy problems…the list goes on…we are adept at juggling more than a few balls at once…it’s a big ole, interconnected World these days, w/ plenty of think tanks & capital…as you well know.

Furthermore, my use of the ‘Colbert’ style was also an attempt at opening some people’s eyes up to the fact that perhaps when ‘winging’ about vegetarians stuffing their views down their carnivore throats…or vegetarians not marketing their lifestyle choice more effectively…they might consider the reality that vegetarians/vegans MUST continually suffer/tolerate a full bore ‘eat meat’ propaganda & advertising campaign…it is relentless, day in & day out…

Imagine if you will, thru no fault of your own, finding that seemingly the entire Nation has fallen for culinary recipes & fast food that contain cats & dogs…particularly tail & snout. And this obsession goes on & on…I think you’d find it a fairly revolting experience to be exposed to the advertising of this grisly product each time you turned on the TV…or hit a restaurant…or looked at billboards along the road…or listened to the radio…or went to the movies. I think you get the gist of what i’m saying.

A wee bit more empathy by some in power might help the situation.

>>It’s a terrible article.

Helen, I feel compelled to disagree. Sure, it’s not very imaginative…its rather droll in execution…it displays a lack of empathy for others. Eliza probably lacks subtlety & the art of persuasion for some. But she says what she thinks. It’s an opinion…she expresses her earnest lack of understanding as to why others indulge in meat eating. Fair enuff. She’s motivated Paul Norton to start a thread…so imho the piece has been generally effective…:)

…even if it was, & possibly could be, a setup/tactic by the Right-Wing in order to stir up the debate & attempt to divide meat eaters from vegetarians in the Labor Party. To put men off the Green Party. You know the kinda stuff. One only needs to look at the attacks on Gillard & the Feminist response…& the attempts to divide Rudd from the Unions, to realise that a ‘divide & conquer’ campaign, ala Murdoch, is being conducted here. Seen it all before.

I might add, I’m not condemning anyone on this thread…not trying to invoke guilt. Just making a few comments…stating a few facts.

As a child I was rarely provided w/ the opportunity to choose alternative foods. I tended not to question my parent’s beliefs, mainstream assumptions. Most don’t until they are in their teens. Only in one school..& that was in Canada…did I ever hear about animal rights - we were shown a doco that looked at the food chain & gave real insight into the goings on in an abbatoir…it was eye opening.

As a teacher in Australia I rarely felt enough job security or support to bring the issue up in class…tho i did occasionally & copped the wrath of a few parents (so be it)…but i fail to see how Queensland Education can state it provides a wide-ranging education when it compels educators to avoid such an important topic.

Now that there exists a variety of non-meat alternatives I prefer to eat them so as to avoid contributing to the killing & enslavement of animals as much as possible. I’m not preaching from a moral certitude perspective…even as I move each insect I find in the house outdoors instead of spraying them, I’m aware of thousands I may have killed in the past, perhaps even now…I never forget that by consuming dairy, occasionally I’m contributing to the possible penning up of cows…& the deaths of their calves…when I feed the 2 cats who adopted us, I mutter some lame ‘spiritual good tiding’ upon the meat or fish I’m serving them & wish each day the Cat’s biological system could incorporate a 100% vegan diet w/out serious deleterious effects.

It is indeed a complex world. Filled w/ contradictions & chaos…luv & suffering. As a witness & occasional participant in the ‘slaughter’ & ‘enslavement’ process, I do what I can to minimize it. I try my best to improve the situation…as it seems many of you do…in one fashion or the other. But I’m not a ‘denialist’…sometimes I just turn the other cheek…go ‘group think’…accept the inevitability of the suffering…stand outside that concentration camp & wish I’d done more as the smoke drifts ever upwards.

Other times I speak out. I rage.

Eliza did…can we really fault her for that? Provided she’s REAL.

Note: Well said Ron…& great link too.

f we were to take nasking’s advice and all “stop the killing� today

That’s not going to happen, of course, but everyone meat- or vege-eaters could at least help to alleviate any suffering food animals endure before they are Glad-wrapped at Woolies or Coles by buying free range ‘products’ and/or writing to your state and federal MP.

Pigs sentenced to 10 more cramped years

Vegetarian and Vegan Society of Queensland

That said, if we were to take nasking’s advice and all “stop the killing� today, we would then have to consider what to do with the many tens of millions of large, hard-hoofed, fodder-devouring, poo-producing cattle, sheep and pigs populating the Australian landscape (not to mention all the chooks), especially as they would no longer be generating a revenue stream to enable the farmers to feed, shelter and vet them. This would not be unproblematic, on environmental, economic, social or humanitarian grounds.

That’s probably my number one issue with veganism as a poltical argument, Paul, and I think it’s a point which needs more attention if we’re to seriously think about changing agricultural practises.

I think claiming that the piece represents a decay in progressive political discourse is well and truly over-the-top, but some of the comments in here are… pretty unnecessarily defensive, lets just say.

The only thing worse than po-faced self-righteousness is lecturing others on the incorrectness of their po-faced self-righteousness.

How true — I get a lot of it from my sisters, who are both still smokers. Anyone want to hear how I gave up smoking? No, I thought not.

That, and the way in which animals are factory farmed and killed, are the two compelling arguments for me.

Helen, this to me is where the real argument starts. I was at a reading given by (noted and passionate vegetarian) JM Coetzee on the Australia Day weekend where the theme was ‘growing up in the country’ and he read the amazingly intense description from Boyhood about the killing of a sheep on the farm.

This elicited the shock and horror from most of the audience that I think it was intended to, but having watched the same thing countless times as a small rural child myself, I was just nodding and saying Mm, yes, that’s how you do it. To me the issue isn’t the killing of animals for meat as such, but giving deliberately bred animals wretched lives for bigger profits, which is about cruelty and the failure to recognise the right of a fellow-creature to spend its life in comfort, being properly looked after.

In a small-scale farming enterprise, at least back then, the sheep and chooks got to schlep around in green paddocks having a high old time growing wool and laying eggs. The unlucky ones were quickly and humanely killed, for food, and by the same people who were going to eat them. To me that’s a completely separate isssue from cruelty and/or neglect.

Still, sooner or later, for me, push is going to come to shove on this one.