[yep, deleted. thanks for the headsup]

have your say to the people implementing the policy. Probably futile, but you never know.

You’re right about being futile – have attended conferences and seminars, knocked down doors, sent off reams, tackled every government from Whitlam onwards, talked to business leaders – all to no avail ….. and no, it’s definitely not my personality or the like [always review my failures to see what went wrong]. Yes, fitile or not, I shall try again.

You hit the jackpot when you mentioned the Science German course. Something like that is called LSP {Language for Specific Purposes} the fuddy-duddies hate LSP but it really does fire up enthusiasm in students and it can turn apparent dullards into proficient USERS of the second language. It becomes relevant to their own lives and their own needs. Once the interest in LSP has been firmly established and confidence gained by evident proficiency, the student can move into learning more about the rest of the language and the culture that goes with it.

DerridaDerider:
Thanks. Shall write Tuesday or Wednesday …..

No, no, no. As an experienced Canberra denizen I can tell you the best time to influence them is now, when they’re still thinking hard about what they’ll do when they win and before the bureaucrats of DEST can get to them. They’ll be too busy doing it afterwards to think about it.

Graham start by writing a longish letter to the shadow Ed minister, Stephen Smith. Perhaps even suggest a meeting.

If the Ruddster gets elected, I suggest you try to storm the Bastille and have your say to the people implementing the policy. Probably futile, but you never know.

I’ve always thought motivation has a lot to do with language learning. On my first day at U of Q I met a girl who decided she wanted to do French/German honours. The problem was that she had done no German. The Prof said she could sit for an exam in four weeks time.

I met her just after she’d done the exam and she knew more German than I’d learnt in four years at school. The fact that she was an ‘open scholar’ which at the time meant she was in the top 25 in the State helped a bit, I suppose.

Also one of the lecturers told us he took a special Science German course for graduate science students who wanted to read research in German. He reckoned they were usually quite proficient after 3 months.

[a]

A couple of decades ago I recall the Feds being shocked to the core to find that only one in 3,000 who learned Asian languages in schools went on to develop fluency.

Why the surprise? Australian business was wilfully ignorant of the need to have home-grown Asian language skills, despite all the hoopla-and-ballyhoo about our need to engage with Asia. Regardless of the level of proficiency, there was only ever a tiny handful of paid jobs where those skills were used – and most of those pitifully few jobs went to native-speaker migrants. Far from alleviating the problem, the Commonwealth government actually exacerbated it. It is no wonder that students coming through the pipeline saw how those ahead of them had fared then deserted Asian languages in droves. Contrast that situation with the EU where almost everybody has a second and third language [usually from a different language group to their mother-tongue]. A Rudd Labor givernment will continue to reward firms for not hiring Australians with Asian language skills…..

[b]

What language is taught in primary schools typically dependes on the expertise available

Only in part – because there are people with the requisite skills out in the community. The other, more serious part is gatekeeping by those in the education system itself. There is no way in the wide world that any Rudd Labor government will ever break through that bureaucratic barrier.

[c]

developing Asian language skills is a big ask.

No it’s not. Difference should not be confused with difficulty. One of the many reasons I detest the failed, orthodox “LOTE” system is that it turns these differences into real difficulties.

Unless a Rudd Labor government has the guts ignore the wails of the LOTE fuddy-duddies and push ahead with reform of the whole creaky old language learning system, it will do no better at promoting Asian language learning than has the Howard government.

I’m also interested in how a number of “problems” in 19th century British politics – eg Ireland, Scotland, constitutional and electoral reform, were sort of heading somewhere up til the end of the Gladstone era then kind of got stuck for another hundred odd years in a sort of stasis.

But you’re quite right, too, it’s fascinating to get a more rounded view of Victorian life.

(I knew you were well read, that’s why I read your stuff…
I do electoral law at work, hence reading Gladstone’s bio for the bits on the reform acts. It took that kind of reading for me to realise the meaning of all those road names around South Brisbane! I blame High School history classes for thinking the Victorian era was dour, rather than a time of great flux and liberalisation.)

You don’t need to look to state politics (Kennett) for a precedent of a press gallery blinded by its closetedness: Keating had them starry-eyed for quite a while. It will be a delicious irony if the same has happened in The Reign of King Little John.

(Mick, should London ever be short of water? I remember as a student there, an engineering student telling me a large part of London was clay based marshland, and only really expanded when industrial pumping took off. Perhaps the subterranean waters long ago became too polluted to use. He also claimed that if the pumps stopped, the City of London would sink. World’s financial clearing house rests on a leaky boat?!)

Oh, and by the way, I’m only remembering this because I’m working in the UK this week.

I love the idea behind technical education – lets build something! In NSW we have perfectly good TAFE system – why not use that!

GG if you want tokenism and ideology, look at the Governments program to build super-techs to which they are going to add just three, the main purpose of which is to do it their way out of the clutches of the evil Labor states. As an initiative it is almost entirely irrelelevant to need.

Not sure of the present situation, but NSW school education was always distinguished in the past by sticking to academic purity. Back in the early 80s, from memory, or thereabouts, Queensland made a strong move into practical education within the schools. A great deal of work has been done since then in articulating the school offerings with TAFE.

Some considerations.

Schools have a much greater coverage of the state than TAFE colleges, which are found only in the larger provincial centres.

Schools have a broad range of curricula, co-curricular and exrtra-curicular offerings relating to the personal development of young people. So they offer much more than specific skills training.

On the curriculum side, core skills relating to language/communication etc are still being taught to kids who take the non-academic stream.

Schools can respond directly to the needs of their communities by offering ’school-based’ subjects, which don’t need to be articulated right through the system.

A problem they have is that TAFE standards of equipment and facilities are normally at what they call ‘industry standard’, which schools can’t neessarily match.

In Brisbane at least, where water is corporatised but not privatised, the City Council is on an accelerated program of fixing leaks, and claim to be ahead of schedule.

[However, I’m very sceptical of his ability - not his sincerity - to develop widespread Asian language skills in Australia].

Graham, actually developing Asian language skills is a big ask. A couple of decades ago I recall the Feds being shocked to the core to find that only one in 3,000 who learned Asian languages in schools went on to develop fluency.

What language is taught in primary schools typically dependes on the expertise available. If that expertise doesn’t stick around or the child changes schools there is a lack of continuity.

In secondary schools decisions have to be made as to which European languages, plus which of Mandarin, Korean, Japanese, Indonesian etc they are going to teach. That means supporting very small classes in the upper secondary school usually.

The main benefit is in cultural understanding for the kids, and increased likelihood that universities might teach Asian languages and cultures. One outcome could be a breakdown in prejudice and a greater willingness on the part of business to use the language skills that already exist within the community.

Rudd has warned his people about complacency, and the better the poll numbers the more complacency there is. Costello has signalled that Labor will have to work for a victory, which is no bad thing.

A badly-received budget would have knocked the Coalition out of contention for this election, as the perception of economic management is pretty much the only issue they have. If Rudd had spat the dummy Latham-style, or if he’d faffed and fudged like Crean or Beazley, he’d be dead. As it is, Rudd is still in the game, and the polls probably show him in front. He has time to build public confidence, and the lived experience stuff is a solid part of that.

It’s not only Brisbane that has old leaky pipes. Something like 10% of Sydney’s water supply doesn’t reach customers because of infrastructure problems, which are compounded by urban consolidation. This issue feeds the greater theme of waste and complacency on the part of the incumbent government (and if the incumbent government reacted by announcing a big water-pipes plan tomorrow, the planning wouldn’t be complete by election time and even if it was, who’d thank the Feds for digging up the roads?).

Everything must be seen through the prism of how the government sees things. She has lost her balance and is obviously not alone. Might be best to take your own water, when visiting Canberra. The plumbing is doing something to journalistic insight, generally.

It is possible that engineering surveys of mains has decreased with privatization in Australia, along with maintenance. Did states selling off the water distribution put an onus on companies to maintain the pipes with targets that were measurable, measured, and reflected our need for water?

What percentage of leakage would be reasonable in such contracts?

Rudd’s proposal is better targetted than Howard’s $10B plan, which merely rewards existing profligates. Not sexy, but bread-and-butter plans never are.

Michelle Grattan’s (Age 2007-05-11) comment that Rudd’s plan was merely “feel-good” shows a lack of her usual insight.

The major leaky systems are in the capital city systems and they could resource repair with a small increase in rates – water is too cheap anyway and that why there is no driver to fix many leaks. The country systems do have economic issues but they are a drop in the bucket really when it comes to drinking water.

Im sorry but both the Costello and the Government in Waiting budgets did nothing for me. The tax cuts were so small why bother – why not spend it on something important (Or give me more than the cost of an extra cappachino a week)!

Where were the big ideas on child care and maternity leave?
4 Year olds?

I love the idea behind technical education – lets build something! In NSW we have perfectly good TAFE system – why not use that!

To paraphrase Clinton: “It’s people-stupid” The bonus for 1st and 2nd year apprentices were a good idea but not nearly big enough. Most of the problem with the trades is that businesses will not employ them, and then the wages are so shockingly low. And how are you going to trades teachers – they are all busy earning real money for a change.

I like how the solar subsidy almost sent the industry broke as people cancelled to wait for the subsidy.

If we want trades people – yes we need to train them but someone better pay a wage you can live on.

As for engineering and scientists shortages – well the same goes. Govt and Businesses should be employing cadets. Instead our future engineers and scientists are currently working in McDOnalds or bars and will not see a technical workplace, outside of university, until they graduate after 4/5 years.

As for the term “fiscal conservative” – even Tony Blair would have been embarrassed to use that term.

This budget period was all about the Howard/Costello Govt keeping their powder dry and letting the Govt in Waiting look foolish.

This was only the opening bid for the auction of the Australian soul!

I have yet to be bought off – either with the paper stuff or with the vision thing.

As for Hartcher in the SMH, like Lewis in the Australian, these blokes have a bucket full of the same worn old cliches that they pull out every day. Not an original thought between them.

According to Hartcher, the honeymoon is over, again. Spare me.

The only precedent for this, unquestioning, bandwagon of love approach, by the media, that I can remember, was before Jeff Kennett was unceremoniously dumped.

Enough egg on faces then, to make a sponge cake.