Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas
Work with me here folks, I’m having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around this thought.
If two former ABC types running for office as Labor candidates implies a bias in that organisation, does the same charge apply to the armed forces where two former well regarded members are also doing the same for Labor?
Just askin’.
Please read the comments policy. If you would like an icon beside your comment, please register a Gravatar.
There is a Comments Preview function below the typing box which activates when you start typing.
Larvatus Prodeo is an Australian group blog which discusses politics, sociology, culture, life, religion and science from a left of centre perspective. more»
Army has always been full of pinkos. Is that the navy?
Don’t the Lib’s conviently forget that ABC Perth Local Radio Breakfast Presenter Eoin Cameron was a former liberal member for the WA Federal Seat of Stirling in the First Howard Term, and that Ian Cover from THe Coodabeen Champions was also a LIberal Member of The Victorian State Parliament.
Oh and that the Current member for Greenough in WA State Parliament for the National Party Grant Woodhams, was until his election to that seat, an ABC Presenter as well.
Lest we forget Pru Goward, the PM’s dear friend. And Rod Henshaw, an FM voiced lightweight from 6124QR who took on Cheryl Kernot in Dickson.
From what I know from navy acquaintances, Children Overboard profoundly offended many in the upper echelons of the military; the Iraq adventure even more. Perhaps the NCOs won’t turn so hard on the government, but it will be interesting to watch returns in seats like Herbert.
The army and the ABC have a lot in common both being stuffed to the gills with bossy bourgeois toadies to hierachic patriachic power. With so many micro-managerial petty-bourgeois authoritarian arseholes in them both they could both easily pass for Marxist organizations.
James Valentine had a good joke on his ABC radio spot this afternoon about the ABC becoming its own political party.
I had no idea Mike Bailey was a Labor man. It will be very interesting to see how he does.
The Nationals have Rob Messenger the Member for Burnett in the Queensland Parliament who is an ex ABC radio presenter too.
Ah ha! I knew there was a left wing bias in the ABC’s weather reports. See for yourself!
Ok, the Rodent is waving the towel, as if he will throw it, then again, if I had Doctor(now, thats a worry) Brendan on my side, I would have left the arena , the 7.30 Report (with Nelson)was a bloody farce, Nelson is a turd, to be kind. I maybe, maybe, think the Rodent is thinking “As you sow so shall etc;”
This lot are buffoons, Downerism has taken hold……
Brendan came on to Moscow Tonight with Kerry O’Brien to discuss Col Mike Kelly’s decision to run in Eden-Monaro. BTW, is it just me, but Brendan bore an uncanny resemblance to ET tonight. Julie Bishop and Brendan Nelson are not of this world. Klatu boroda nichta.
But I digress.
Kelly had a spray on Iraq policy, Abu Ghraib and AWB, all of which he has inside knowledge and intimated that he may tell more during his campaign.
So Kerry, the Fenian Fiend that he is, futilely kept asking Brendan to shed some light on these three items of historical interest. Brendan bullshitted and dodged but finally hinted that blame lay with Robert Hill and Cosgrove. There’s no honour among thieves, as they say.
Anyway, what’s Mike Bailey’s schtick? Lack of rain. He could stick it to Malcolm quite easily if they ever got into a mano a mano situation:
Mal: Look, I am the minister for water and I can tell you…
Mike (cutting in): Listen Mal, why not stick on tax dodge schemes and money laundering and I’ll talk about the drought and weather because I am trained meteorologist.
Rob Messenger, former ABC presenter, now sitting QLD National MP.
This brings to mind the delightfully stupid way in which the fascist government in Portugal dealt with student unrest in the late 1960s. They punished student radicals by conscripting them into the army. But because decades of fascist government had led to a tiny level of tertiary education which made “officer material” hard to come by, said student radicals were made into officers. They were then sent off to fight a failing war against insurgents in Angola and Guinea Bissau.
But, anyway….
The result? A LEFT WING COUP led by young officers followed by 18 months of revolution in which large sections of the Portuguese working class occupied their workplaces and capitalist normality couldn’t be reestablished because the frigging officer corps was full of revolutionaries.
A bit of a long draw to compare that with a couple of ex-officers standing for the ALP, I know.
Yes, the last great anti-fascist revolution in Europe. The code word to the armed forces to begin their revolt was, I believe, ABBA’s Waterloo winning the Eurovision song contest. I have been unable to confirm this. Can someone help me out here?
Always was a bit of a mole, that Mike.
When I was in Sydney in the late 70s ( a South Aussie in need of an Aussie Rules fix) Mike, during his sojourn to the 7 network, acted as local anchor for the VFL live telecasts piped up from Melbourne. Did very well, too, managing to get in some info on the impoverished local Sydney AFL comp ( this was a few years before the migration of South Melboune to become the Sydney Swans and, of course, later the national AFL comp.
Was a bit sorry to see him go back to the ABC for the Weather, but I bet he wasn’t. I heard they paid him a bundle for his signature and segment.
The North Sydney area may well be a loose cannon, and I wouldn’t put it off the list of ALP gains. But like Bennelong, it’s not one they’d seriously be counting on.
‘Friends of the ABC’ site has a list of ABC/Liberal crossovers, some of whom have been named here.
There are 15 names on the list.
Prof Rat and Fairman wouldn’t know what real Army people are like. The views held by Kelly and Tinley are a definite minority within the ADF. In fact I was talking to some SASR Officers recently who said that Tinley is a good bloke but his politics and version of events suck.
Yep, Piers Akerman has discovered the vast left wing conspiracy to subvert this once-great country of ours.
And now he’s discovered it and told the good people of australia all about it, they’ll rouse themselves and foil the evil designs of the dastardly ALP.
Oh, wait.
Yes RB, that recruitment own goal was Salazar’s twist on a centuries old Portuguese practice of exile rather than execution – mainly because they were always short on manpower to run their impossible empire.
eg Portuguese criminals in the 16th century would often be dropped off in unknown territory near trading ports. On the off chance they survived, the Portuguese would have a translator.
Jose Ramos Horta is another product of this policy – his old man was a Portuguese communist deported to Timor in the 1930s.
Robert Bollard:
Not such a long bow ….. there’s been a generational change but the Howard government still thinks it is living back in the ’seventies and ‘eighties.
There’s an old powder-keg sitting in the corner, it’s full of things like what happened to the crews of HMAS Voyager and HMAS Melbourne or to the veterans of Atomic Bomb testing or to anyone else hurt by any one of a dozen other Defence scandals.
But slap-bang right in the middle of the room is powder-keg full of things like ripping-off of the widow of an SAS soldier in Afghanistan, slandering veterans from East Timor as malingerers, ditching the soldiers who were conned into being involved in the Waterfront Dispute, blaming a dead pilot once too often . and so on. There are little whisps of smoke coming out of that powder-keg and everyone is pretending that it is nothing to worry about …….
Razor:
Well what else would you expect from the Canberra Clone Factory’s output?
The actions of people like Collins, Willkie, Tinley and Kelly have proven that the leadership shown by a tiny minority beats the group-think and compliance of the herd every time. There’s a time for military personnel to keep their mouths shut and stay right away from anything party-political….. and then there’s a time for military personnel to sound the alarms and to stand their ground. The times we are going through right now are the latter, not the former.
Downerism has taken hold
Are you implying this govt suffers from Downer Syndrome?
Yeah, Howard’s rooted. People cant wait to change the country from the bullshit-ridden plutocracy its become, so that tired mantra’s just another own goal. Political genius my arse.
Howard has reached that stage when Inuit would walk into the snow. Will he walk? if so, how long has he got? Personally, I think its already too late to save face by retiring. Leave tomorrow, and he’s still going to be the coalition punching bag and all round fall guy come election night.
Better to take the rap himself, upfront. Might have some chance of rescuing his legacy with noble captaincy of the sinking ship. Plus, hope will diehard when there’s only home improvement with Janette to look forward to after politics.
My money’s on Howard staying put.
And anyway, we all deserve that concession speech on video loop.
Sorry, I meant those concession speeches. Maxine and Kev.
Yes Graham Bell, as one who was raised in the army, I think Razor is well off the mark on army politics. It is easy to mistake an ingrained sense of duty to the country with loyalty to any particular government policy.
There is a suburb in Canberra, near Russell Hill, where many of the officer class live, and poll watchers have been very interested in the past couple of elections (particularly during the tampa 2001 election) to see the polling booth figures in this area tilt distinctly left. The conservatives do not own the ADF, and never have, but its a comfortable myth.
Nairn is desperately pushing all these buttons in Eden-Monaro (where I suspect a significant number of senior ADF retirees have been uncovered by the ALP), suggesting the ADF hates Kelly for being a “whistle-blower”, but he is comletely out of his depth and just does not understand the military mind.
Notice how on Mike Bailey’s synoptic charts, the incoming weather patterns always come from…
(cue pipe organ, thunder and lightning)
*TEH LEFT!!!*
It’s more bias!! Bias I tell you!
Somebody should tell Santo Santoro. We demand balance in our weather reports for our 8 cents a day.
From now on, I want to see an equal number of weather fronts coming from both the left and the right of the chart.
Still, we don’t need a weatherman to tell us which way the wind is blowing…
Now here is an example of a constipated born-to-rule mentality. Nick Minchin sez:
“I do believe in the innate commonsense of the Australian people.”
“I think that when it comes to actually marking their ballot papers and deciding whether they do want to change the government, Australian voters will think very seriously about this.”
Deconstructing this: Not voting in the Liberal Party – National Party Coalition into government is not commonsense, it’s irrational and misguided.
Flirting with the idea of an alternative government to Howard’s is not a serious idea. It is childish and the very notion a little “joke” that the Australian people are having with the opinion pollsters.
He he he.
Now, hear this Ostraylian Pippl. Stop being silly! Silly, silly, silly. Be adult about this.
Just think of the consequences! Jeannette will no longer have the funds for interior decorating. Alex Downer will have to pay for his own jetabouts overseas and nobody will take any notice whatsoever of the garbage coming out of his mouth and ignore his hissy fit flouncing. Joe Hockey will go back to being a clown at children’s parties. Peter Costello will pout – in the mirror. And best of all, John Howard will be forgotten, his grating, adenoidal whine off our radios and TVs forever.
Most people in the armed forces would vote conservative, just as most people who work for the ABC would vote Labor or Green.
But most doesn’t mean 100%, or anything close to it.
Mike Bailey’s a good choice for North Sydney. Not exactly a revolutionary, and being a TV weatherman he’ll be able to speak with some authority (more than Joe Hockey, in any case) on climate change, the one big issue likely to swing the people who live there to Labor. (It’s unlikely the voters wgo live there are going to be victims of Workchoices. If anything, they are likely to benefit from it.)
Phil
Your question should be compulsory reading for all high school students as an exemplar of the shortcopmings of analogical reasoning.
If you look at surveys of voting intention by occupational group, nobody votes conservative more than members of the Defence forces. Nobody. Not farmers, not self-employed businesspeople, nobody.
Part of the calculus of 1975 was that the armed forces would stand behind the Governor-General even though the budget blockage meant they wouldn’t have been paid. True, 1975 was a long time ago and there’s been a lot going on since then. It’s also true that in order to win government, Labor will have to win over people who don’t ordinarily vote for them. Maybe ADF personnel will vote Labor this time – but it will be an aberration.
Yeah right, Rudd’s going to usher in the Golden Age. Do you want to become bitterly disillusioned now, or will we have to wait?
Firstly, while the officer class may be taking a distinct drift to the left, the average sh*t-kicking soldier (no disrespect intended) tends to think and vote conservative – “my country, right or wrong”. For them it won’t be continuous bitching about military strategy and foreign policy that will encourage them to vote Labor later this year: it will be far more mundane issues, such as the stagnation of military pay and the more general issue of the rising cost of living (interest rates, inflation, etc.) that could influence their vote. (I speak with a bit of authority: my sister’s partner is in the Army, and he’s seriously considering civilian life after his current commitment because of the rate of military pay.)
Secondly, I had to chuckle when I heard Jokin’ Joe rabbiting on about him living in North Sydney and Mike Bailey not – good for him. Labor aren’t the first party to recruit someone from outside an electorate to run for them – the Libs are quite famous themselves for parachuting celebs and hacks into plum seats. I also suspect that he doesn’t realise that complex sitting on the Pacific Highway in Gore Hill on the rare occasion that he’s in his electorate.
(Unless he assumes the Double-Sine logo is the international symbol for “here be dragons”.)
Andrew E, I was there in QLD in 89 when Goss told us all to have a cold shower after the long bitter street fight against Bjelke Petersen.
Nothing he could say or do ever took the shine of Joh’s demise.
Rudd’s a centrist, yes, but not a soulless one. The IR package alone will see a major power shift back to ordinary punters – and that’ll do me nicely, ta.
So, not expecting paradise, but get me back to limbo.
Oh, I thought you were serious about that “bullshit-ridden plutocracy” stuff – you just want a bit of a change of tack, like the rest of us. Fair enough then.
This spread of lefty bias has to be stopped.
We know that the ABC is full of ‘baby-boomers pinko-socialist latte-sipping’ lefties.
But when these seems to infect the main commercial station it has to be stopped!
graham Bell said –
“The actions of people like Collins, Willkie, Tinley and Kelly have proven that the leadership shown by a tiny minority beats the group-think and compliance of the herd every time. There’s a time for military personnel to keep their mouths shut and stay right away from anything party-political….. and then there’s a time for military personnel to sound the alarms and to stand their ground. The times we are going through right now are the latter, not the former.”
… As long as you agree with them. if you don’t agree then they should just shut up – is thathow it works???
Wilkie was an insructor at RMC Duntroon when I went through and he was an oppinionated dickhead then – nothing much has changed. He had a reputation for being a bit of a screw ball from his time as a Cadet. There is almost zero respect for him in the ADF now.
I have met Tinley a couple of times about issues since he started his campaign. I knew he was running for Stirling before it went public. He is a good bloke but his politics and spin suck. There is verylittle supprot for his position within the ADF, particularly within SASR.
“Not exactly a revolutionary, and being a TV weatherman he’ll be able to speak with some authority (more than Joe Hockey, in any case) on climate change, the one big issue likely to swing the people who live there to Labor. (It’s unlikely the voters wgo live there are going to be victims of Workchoices. If anything, they are likely to benefit from it.”
Mike Bailey is a television presenter who interprets very basic meteorological data in a way that hopefully entertains and informs the ABC audience. This makes him an engaging and familiar face on our screens but it no more makes him an “authority on climate change” than playing A singing nun made Julie Andrews an authority on ecclesiastical choral music.
Bailey has been recruited presumably because he has a high recognition factor and comes across as a nice, dependable kind of guy.
Oh yes Geoff, and Malcolm Turnbull is an authority on climate and water? Now if there was a portfolio for moneylaundering and carpetbaggery…
“Oh yes Geoff, and Malcolm Turnbull is an authority on climate and water?”
Malcolm Turnbull isn’t running for North Sydney as a TV weatherman, Ken, so the comparison is, frankly, a bit tortured. However distasteful being a Capitalist might be, Ken, Turnbull did have a significant national political profile, through his leadership of the ARM, before his election to parliament. You could make a not dissimilar case for Peter Garrett. Mike Bailey’s sole qualification appears to be that he comes across on TV as a nice bloke. We could also look at a recent pre-selection decision in Adelaide where the desired, famous ex footy player wasn’t available so his wife was pre-selected in lieu.
I’m not at all opposed to high profile candidates being parachuted in providing there’s more on offer than just “celebrity” – and I’m afraid that’s not immediately obvious in Mike Bailey’s case.
O RLY? Did Kim Beazley ring to consult you first?
I’m not sure what your meeting him has to do with anything. Half the residents of Stirling have met him now. How does meeting him prove that most SAS soldiers don’t agree with him? Did he admit that to you?
And how many SAS soldiers did you consult to get your special inside knowledge? It’s certainly very convenient to claim you know their views when they can’t be identified and speak for themselves, isn’t it?
Do SAS soldiers vote by means of a top secret ballot?
It would not be surprising that SAS personnel are welded on Libs. They self-select for authoritarian personalities. And Howard has been assiduous in marketing himself as the Little Digger. Moreover, the SAS have attained the status of the Praetorian Guard for Howard’s symbolic overseas adventures. What better for careerism than increased funding, media-stoked adulation, and light duties in faraway and photgenic places?
If combat personnel officers do decide to oppose the Howard government, it means that self-interest weighs lighter in their minds than the damage done by Howard to Australia’s national interests.
Australia needs more service personnel like that.
Not necessarily. Just because a large majority of them vote Liberal (which I am sure is true) doesn’t mean they like the idea of being put in harm’s way for no good reason. As well, there is no reason that their respect for authority should in any way conflict with their being angry or unsettled at the idea of invading another nation’s territory – in the case of Tampa – or being put in harm’s way because “authorities� like the President of the United States lied about the reasons.
Geoff,
I didn’t say Mike Bailey is an expert on climate change. But he probably knows more about it than Joe Hockey (that is, he knows a bit, Hockey knows nothing). More to the point, the voters are likely to think Bailey knows about it.
I’ve been trying to find out if Bailey has been a member of the ALP for long. Does anyone know?
And where does he live? The uninformative Australian media strikes again.
He was a broadcaster on 2KY, the Labor Council-owned radio station, and has form in dropping anti-Lib comments from time to time.
Lives in Bennelong, apparently.
Bennelong is right next door, electorately-speaking, so he’s not exactly parachuting in – just driving a few kilometres.
I’ve always found Bailey verging on the excruciatingly innocuous, so I was surprised to find out he was political in any way.
Geoff, You are starting from an implied premiss that there is some sort of qualification required to become a member of parliament. Maybe you know something I don’t.
Anyhow, you are conveniently avoiding your own point you made further up the thread, lampooning Mike Bailey’s previous job as a weather presenter on TV. But he IS a meteorologist, so he IS qualified and informed to deal with climate isuues and water. Whereas Turnbull is not actually all that learned about weather and water, being a merchant banker and a lawyer. So if it comes to discussing such issues head to head, Turnbull would have to be briefed by experts, whereas Bailey is an expert in his own right. So that was the point I was making, in case it escaped you.
If you entered politics, Geoff and engaged Wilson Tuckey (a health minister in a Costello government of the future) in a discussion about HIV/AIDS, say, who would you say was more qualified, you or Wilson?
It is clear that very few minister/spokesperson politicians are qualified in their portfolios and rely on being fed lines, so a little bit of genuine expertise would be a Good Thing, wouldn’t you say? And in any case, previous job and expertise aren’t always all that useful. Alexander Downer’s runs on the board as a diplomat haven’t exactly led to a brilliant creer as a foreign minister, have they? I mean he seemed to rely on the “I am advised” a lot during the AWB inquiry…
For Malcolm Turnbull, being chairman of ARM is no qualification for anything, mainly because he failed. The most obvious conclusion we can draw from it is that he is an ambitious, self-serving dud. And among the 10 most distrusted people in the country, together with Jolly Joe Hockey, a recent poll reveals.
And what’s Joe’s political claim to fame prior to entering politics? Well, look at his website: he was a Young Liberal and was on a committee to improve cricket facilities at Northbridge Oval – clearly a stellar accomplishment that makes him fit to be a future prime minister.
As regards Malcolm – you know, of course, that he was in a business partnership with Neville Wran after the latter abruptly left politics, and was an acolyte and consigliere/employee of Kerry Packer, and an associate of Trevor Kennedy. So I agree with you, a wonderful set of qualifications for a politician in Australia there, and as an expert on water – especially the kind that flows under a bridge.
Lefty E sez…
“Howard has reached that stage when Inuit would walk into the snow. Will he walk? if so, how long has he got?”
Lefty, The Rodent’s always got the “Antarctic Option”:
“Ahhh….Peter…….I may not be back for some time.”
“Geoff, You are starting from an implied premiss that there is some sort of qualification required to become a member of parliament. Maybe you know something I don’t.”
No I’m not and ranting on at me for several paragraphs doesn’t make it so.
I made my outpoint here:
“I’m not at all opposed to high profile candidates being parachuted in providing there’s more on offer than just “celebrityâ€? – and I’m afraid that’s not immediately obvious in Mike Bailey’s case.”
And that, Ken, is what I continue to think.
What is it with Conservative Wogs* who have it in for the ABC ??
* And before you all cry Racist, I am a second Generation Italo-Australian of good Calabrian Stock
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,21782210-5005361,00.html
Well that’s good, Geoff, and I wholeheartedly support you in your endeavour to think.
“Well that’s good, Geoff, and I wholeheartedly support you in your endeavour to think.”
I recommend it.
Why, thank you! I’ll take in on board, Geoff… in the same way I would Joe Hockey on industrial relations and Malcolm Turnbull on meteorology and hydrology.
Oh come on, Geoff. I’d already pointed out he’s knowledgable on AFL in a Rugby League stronghold. A lot better than Carr, who used to go along to those Swans games with a History of the American Civil War smuggled between Football Records for quiet reading during the games.
AFL on the night of a State of Origin? That’s getting close to a Renaissance Man in my opinion!
“A lot better than Carr, who used to go along to those Swans games with a History of the American Civil War smuggled between Football Records for quiet reading during the games.”
Don, Bob Carr disproves all the theories. An ABC polymath with an admirable affection for History, who
managed to convince the NSW electorate that a total disaffection for organised sport and a mindboggling disinterest in acquiring a driver’s licence, was no barrier to continued electoral success.
If Bailey can offer an encyclopedic analysis of the Second Battle of Bull Run and a media strategy for dealing with State of Origin defeat in the same half hour, I’ll relent. Till then he’s a 57 year old pretty face, which is worrying in itself.
Is Mike Bailey actually a “qualified meteorologist”, or merely a TV presenter who regurgitates forecasts and information as supplied by the Weather Bureau?
Also, a “climatologist” would be more qualified to comment on the science surrounding global warming and its impacts, as opposed to a “meteorologist”, who is more concerned with day-to-day variations in weather patterns and their translation into short-term forecasts. Not that the general public would be concerned with either of these 2 distinctions, which is the whole point of the exercise I suspect
Cheers, Chris GS (“qualified meteorologist” and PhD in climatology)
Concetta Fierravanti-Wells (once is coincidence…),
Sophie Panopo- sorry, Mirabella (twice is happenstance…),
Santo Santoro (enemy action – ’nuff said!).
(* Part-Croat, Austrian, Hungarian, French, Flemish and English – that’s my disclaimer!)
And now, the sinister Mike Bailey, stooge of the Union Bosses, has been unmasked! Ooh wah:
“Senator Fierravanti-Wells said the ABC should consider imposing a cooling-off period to prevent staff from resigning and then immediately being preselected by political parties.”
McKew left the ALP quite some time ago. After a decent interval she joined Rudd’s staff as an adviser, and then after a further interval became an ALP candidate.
What is with Conservative Wogs* who have no conception of the passage of time?
* Stuff the disclaimer.
I think Senator Dufus may discover that’s restraint of trade without the remotest justification on commercial grounds and actually rather unlawful.
Everyone:
Wasn’t Northern Territory Chief Minister Claire Martin an ABC broadcaster in North Queensland?
Katz, you said
That is a real cause for concern because when Howard got rid of that troublesome priest who asked too many awkward questions, Peter Hollingworth, he replaced him [well, on advice to Her Majesty] with a prominent former SAS officer who didn’t ask enough. Howard hangs around “his” favourite unit like a bad smell whenever a photo-opportunity and second-hand glory are needed but his true colours show in his allowing dirty sneaky things to be committed by his regime against members and former members of the ADF – and their families too.
Another concern is that a future Liberal government [if there ever is such a thing] might decide to disband the SAS Regiment because of it being too closely associated with the failed frolics of a surrender-monkey prime minister. Such disbandment would dressed up in the flowery language of modernization and efficiency, of course. That would be a pity because the Australian Special Air Service Regiment really has served Australia well and could continue to do so.. “They wouldn’t dare!” I hear you say. No, and they didn’t dare disband the RAN’s Fleet Air Arm either, did they? [Pig's ar*e they didn't!]
Grace Pettigrew and AlexOnTheBus:
Indeed! Though I would word that differently
Razor:
About Andrew Willkie. It may have been a case of horses for courses; he may have been a better intelligence analyst than a Duntroon instructor [I'm just guessing]. As for the opinions of the herd – there seems to be a negative correlation between popularity and real leadership in the ADF so pardon me if I don’t rush in to join them. Wonder if Willkie will stand as a Greens candidate again?
Yes GB, the SAS is one of Howard’s favourite backdrops for a photo op.
I guess no blame can attach to the SAS for how Howard uses them for political purposes.
Moreover, the SAS serves as a perfect counterfeit of actual military commitment in the so-called GWOT. Did anyone with any responsibility for Australia’s military deployments ever genuinely believe that the SAS, whose function is really as a high-tech hit squad, would be effective in dissuading Afghans from supporting the Taliban? If so, they are stupid.
More likely they didn’t. Thus deployment of the SAS is a relatively risk-free means of signalling commitment.
If this is the case, I’d be interested to know what appreciation the Officers of the SAS have of their deployments? Are they mostly naive or are they mostly cynical about they effects of their deployments? Or perhaps, are they seething about a misapplication of the kind of force they are capable of imposing on an enemy?
I sincerely hope it is the last.
Oh well, in 2003 it was a drover’s dog, now it’s a weatherman. The worker’s party, indeed!
Graham Bell and Katz: no.
One does not photograph serving members of SASR. I suspect you’re confusing it with the infantry branches of the Royal Australian Regiment (RAR).
Poor Connie.
When I first encountered her in the corridors of the NSW Government during the late ’80s she was aggressively Italo-Australian, all long dark hair tossed over the shoulder and rolling the “r”s in her surname, pronouncing her own and other Italian names with the kind of musical intonation that’s hard for non-Italian speakers to achieve without pressing the balls of the thumb, forefinger and middle finger together.
Then she married Mr Wells, and the Dave Clark Right began to assert themselves in the NSW Liberal Party. All of a sudden she starts caking on the makeup to hide that Mediterranean complexion and referring to herself as “Mrs Connie Wells”. Having gone to so much trouble to de-wog herself, her current persona seems somewhere between these extremes of Sophia-Loren-from-Wollongong and Stepford-wife. She ran against Tony Abbott and is only in Parliament because she probably has the numbers to knock over Bronwyn Bishop.
Is there anyone better qualified to root out and expose people in public life who are disguising their true natures?
Katz. The SASR’s main role is reconnaissance with an add-on fighting capability and they weren’t in Afghanistan to dissuade anyone from doing anything. They were there to do their bit to sort out the Taliban and to protect others ‘dissuading’ or building infrastructure. They were particularly successful there and in Iraq.
High Tech Hit Squad doesn’t sit with the work they have done, in fact it’s a put-down, and I think you’ll find the Officers and troopers are more than happy with what they have been called upon to do; their only problem being they are a bit thin on the ground and some are overdeployed.
If you’re looking for mobs of Tinley’s in the SAS you will be disappointed believe me.
Graham Bell. 723, 816 and 817 Squadrons, RAN think they are still an active part of the Fleet Air Arm. What did happen was that the Aircraft Carrier Melbourne wasn’t replaced although in 1982 Malcom Fraser had contracts signed to buy HMS Invincible but the Falklands war put a stop to that. Hawke, of course wasn’t interested and it’s only now, with some degree of financial management and understanding of defence matters that we can look once again at flat tops, albeit small ones
Actually, Kev, I think you’ll find that Tinley supported – and still supports – the mission in Afghanistan.
Just sayin’.
Anna,
Never suggested he didn’t and anyway supporting Afghanistan is ALP policy so no surprise there.
…being put in harm’s way for no good reason. I can promise the vast majority don’t see it that way. They will see both Iraq and Afghanistan as legitimate theatres for combating terrorism and after an incredible amount of hard and dangerous training they will want to put it into effect.
And they have.
Because you and others hate/dislike/whatever Howard and Bush and believe they lied about Iraq doesn’t cut it in the military. They (once we) are mainly apolitical and look at these matters with a different mindset.
Well, first, your comment was all about Afghanistan, then you talked about how they aren’t all like Tinley. It’s you who was unclear if you didn’t mean that Tinley didn’t support the view you expressed.
Secondly, had he spoken out while still in uniform you might have a point, but he didn’t. He waited until he’d been out for a few years. Unless you’re implying that SAS soldiers are all mindless borgs, soldiers can and do have political opinions, and views about the missions they’re going on. The issue is when and whether it’s right to express them while in uniform.
Thirdly, you seem to be implying that Tinley was in some way unprofessional, and your description of trained, efficient soldiers doesn’t apply to him. Which I am absolutely certain is not your intention, Kev. His choices after leaving the army should not be used to diminish the work he did for 25 years just because you and others hate/dislike/whatever he said.
How do soldiers recognise if and when a situation isn’t suspectible to a military solution?
If and when soldiers encounter such a situation, how do they communicate that perception to their political masters, who presumably are anything but “apolitical” and therefore make decisions about deployment of the military with political in mind?
FiascoDaGama:
Don’t be so nai’ve.
One does not publish full-face photos of serving SASR soldiers this century. Anyway, that’s not necessary. What is important is for the Prime Minister to be seen surrounded by sea of sandy berets. All the mug-voters want to see is their Dear Leader’s beaming or somber face [depending on the needs of the day]; they don’t want to be bothered looking at the faces of his military worshippers, just their backs. And if it is widely known that it is forbidden to show the faces of these special soldiers then photos of the prime minister addressing whole squadrons of them – and actually seeing all their faces – just adds to the mystique.
Of course the whole thing is a load of bollocks but its the bollocks that the mug-voters go for; that’s why they are and ever will be mug-voters. Sceptical informed voters, on the other hand, are not impressed by such shenanigans.
What SASR soldiers themselves think of politicians using their unit as a stage-prop will eventually come to light as they leave the ADF and as a few of them write their memoirs [should be hilarious reading].
Katz. you said:
Nai’vity would be completely out of the question.
Kev Gillett:
This is a blog, not a scholarly journal, but my description of what happened to the Fleet Air Arm could be expanded to a 5 000-word paper if that would make you happier ….. of course were name-changes and there was some sort of career continuity, with significant modification, for the lucky ones. When all is said and done, Australia no longer has the ability to project credible air-strike capability independently and far beyond out shores …. however, the RAN still has a few squadrons with nice names…
You’ve missed my point.
They have form.
When Gorton was PM at the height of the Viet-Nam War, nobody could have guessed at the time that his Liberal Party would, within a decade, turn on the very same service personnel they were praising to the skies for fighting Communism.
Phil insinuates that water may run uphill:
This is silly, even by the risible standards of culture war commentary set by most Larva Prodders. All it implies is a couple of dis-affected army officers who are making the ALP some political capital during an unpopular war.
Anyone who implies that the ABC does not usually list Left or that the ADF does not usually list Right is being deliberately disingenuous.
Here, composed after a moments thought are a journalists and op-edders who currently work for the ABC and are fairly Left-wing:
George Negus;
Allan Ashbolt;
Juanita Phillips,
Virginia Haussegger,
Romana Koval,
Virginia Trioli,
Geraldine Doogue
Then there are the legion of ABC journos who actually worked for the ALP: Tom Switzer covers the multitude of sinners:
at one time or another many ABC journalists have worked for the Labor party (think of Barrie Cassidy, Kerry O’Brien, Mark Bannerman, Alan Carpenter, Claire Martin, Mary Delahunty and Bob Carr, among others). In contrast, how many prominent ABC journalists have worked for the conservative side of politics in recent decades?
One: Pru Goward. And she is on the Far Left of the Liberal Party.
I dont have much of a problem with ABC-leftism. Left-wing sentiment for intellectuals is functional. They are professionals at social critics. Social critique aims at criticising authority and is therefore anti-Right. Left wing intellectuals are only a problem when they become start “marching in-step with the big battallions” (Orwell).
Nor do I have a problem with ADF-rightism. Right wing sentiment amongst military is functional. They are professionals at national security. National security aims at consolidating authority and is therefore pro-Right. Right-wing martials only become a problem when they try to short-circuit democracy.
I do have a problem with those who continually insinuate that Black is White and Up is Down ie standard “New” Leftist cultural commentary. (Which was looking old at least 20 years ago already.)
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21782210-1702,00.html
Juanita Phillips reads the news. She doesn’t provide commentary. On what basis, Jack, do you say she is left wing?
Does she screw up her face disapprovingly when saying the words “John Howard”?
Does her face light up glowingly when saying the words “Bob Brown”?
Does she shake her head with disapproval after each night’s story on that day’s massacre in Iraq?
Does she laugh mockingly after a story on George W. Bush?
Does she tear up when reading a story on Guantanamo Bay?
Anyone who thinks that Virginia Trioli is left wing lives in a parallel universe where anybody more progressive than Pontificating Piers and his chums is ‘left wing’, and the sun shines out of John Howard’s posterior.
Graham,
I didn’t miss your point, it’s just that it is so outlandish that I couldn’d begin to imagine it happening.
I don’t recall Gorton turning on us and I’m the sensitive type but I do recall Whitlam gutting the Army. Must just be our different perspective. Over my long involvement I formed the opinion that the conservatives were more friendly to us military but sometimes it was a close call. For a long time there were no votes in the military and both sides of the divide acted accordingly.
In my opinion, any statement that includes the line “failed frolics of a surrender-monkey prime minister” shows a lack of objectivity but then that’s just me.
Fleet Air Arm. You are right, we lost the abilty of naval projection but that ability came at a huge cost and the atmosphere wasn’t there to accept the cost. However you originally said we lost the Fleet Air Arm…we didn’t, we lost the flat-tops. Of course, it could be said the F111s made up for this and today inflight refueling changes the picture considerably.
Katz,
Being apolitical doesn’t mean unaware. All military deployments are discussed between the politicians and Generals well before we hear of it. In addition to this, the soldiers can talk to the majors, the majors to the colonels and the colonels to the generals.This is particularly true in the SASR. No general worth his rank goes to a meeting with politicians without having discussed the ramifications of potential deployments beforehand with the people most likely to carry out the task. Officers who are always being surprised by events are weeded out long before achieving field rank.
Anna,
The issue is when and whether it’s right to express them while in uniform.
No issue…it is wrong but that wasn’t my point with Tinley. He looked for credibility using his military experience and those who don’t understand would easily take what he said as a professional opinion when it wasn’t – it was a personal one.
His comments about being shocked and traumatised about the Tampa insertion brings to question his professionalism. What sort of mission brief did he give his troopers? He says “We were effectively invading the sovereign soil of Norway. If he believed that at the time, and it is his right to do so, then he should’ve resigned his commission.
As Jock says Right-wing martials only become a problem when they try to short-circuit democracy then the same applies to left-wing martials…If Tinley disagreed so vehemently with the governemt he had no choice but to resign…and he didn’t, not then.
That’s why I don’t warm to Tinley
Yeah, I know, long winded but rest easy, I have to do some work now…bye
Yes, I’ve read the records of many of these discussions between 1961 and 1965 in regard to commitment to Vietnam.
As subsequent events revealed, there was much room for improvement.
Many officers in the US Armed Farces have concluded that this opportunity for self-improvement was rejected.
Can Australian officers legitimately claim to be in a happier state of mind than US officers?
(I recognise that being the very junior member of a military/diplomatic coalition imposes special tasks and provides unique opportunities.)
For example, how hard have Australian Armed Forces Officers attempted to point out Defence Minister Brendan Nelson’s perceptions of the nature of the conflict in Iraq:
Nelson’s claim is, of course, nonsense. As Juan Cole reports, only about 2% of the estimated 100,000 insurgents in Iraq can be identified a al Qaeda.
For surely the perceived nature of the deployment might be radically altered by whom an armed force identifies as its most dangerous adversary.
Kev Gillett:
I’m proud to claim bias in my opinions …. but not a lack of objectivity.
You mean outlandish like giving the vote to stone-age Aborigines or outlandish like the demise of the Communist Party of Australia …..or outlandish like covertly selling-off the war-service housing land at a time when there were a lot of war veterans’ families stuck in caravans and in substandard rental accommodation?
Liberals’ John Gorton was not hostile to service and ex-service personnel [he got is own burns scars in the cockpit of his own fighter aircraft!]; Labor’s Gough Whitlam was ex-RAAF too but his attitudes were rather ambivalent. It was those who came after Gorton who ranged from neglectful [at best] to downright hostile. Defence Minister, ex-RAAF Jim Killen – and Science and Technology Minister at the time of the Agent Orange scandal, ex-Army Brigadier Thomson – come immediately to mind. History will judge the current Prime Minister and his associates ….. heaps of lovely photos of politicians with brave Diggers notwithstanding.
The coalition side has been remarkably unlucky with its ex-military candidates – except for that terrific Australian, the Nationals’ Tim Fischer and maybe the Liberals’ Steve Pratt. Since the ’sixties in Australia, a “distinguished”[wtf?] military career rarely translated into a worthwhile political one for the coalition, whereas the ALP has had people like Tom Uren and the late Senator Jim Keeffe.
“Graham Bell” you give yourself away with your truly racist and nasty comments about aborigines, it just shows your stone age backwards mindset. Another one incapable of concealing her prejudices is that Virginia Trioli! Now, I know that Malcolm Fraser has undergone a significant left shift [since he and his mates conspired to prematurely cut off a democratically elected government from carrying out the policies for which the majority of us voted], but when even a reasonable voice like his is raised to ask if Virginia is a liberal party plant, you’ve got to pause for thought. For some reason, her worst bias is directed against our nsw state labor government, particularly personal and childish rumour mongering about Iemma’s insufficient work hours, but also loony theories about hospital waiting lists being ‘prettied up’ pre elections, and an open, easy spot for bloody debnam anytime he felt like it.
The other side of the equation is her eggshell thin tolerance for any criticism of Howard, her slavish line towing on the refugee issue [as noted by Fraser], and not letting anyone ever say that anyone in the federal government has ‘lied’- oh yes she is always very quick to cut people off there and say over the top of them ‘oh no I don’t think you can say that, unless it has been proven by a court’ [!!!!!] madness.
She also loved the glass jaw crap started by packer liberal stooge Laurie Oakes [spelling?] and is none too subtle re: her position on euthanasia, abortion and stem cell research and incidentally feels that the amazingly rich catholic church shouldn’t have to compensate anyone for the real cost of using Randwick for weeks and weeks. So many times the only people who agree with her are disgustingly parochial north shore ‘doctors wife’ type callers, really just nasty racist people, and almost everyone else when confronted with her totally subjective take on so many issues feels compelled to say [no doubt correctly] that it smacks of a latent lib dying to come out of the closet. If I had a dollar for everyone who called her and said that, only to get the pro forma response ‘Well, [say] Pam of the blue mountains, if only you knew how many others accuse me of working for the labor party!’ as if that should silence the debate. I’ve said it before: THE ONLY PERSON I’VE EVER HEARD ACCUSING VIRGINIA TRIOLI OF BEING A LABOR PARTY STOOGE IS -VIRGINIA TRIOLI! It seems that everyone else, literally every one to a man, will handle the opposing side, while she stands alone in the ridiculous suggestion that she is in fact a left winger.
It seems that Gerard Hendo among others wish to cultivate this image that VT is a small ‘l’ liberal bookend to the talkback culture wars, much as Chomsky has pointed out that some pretend the New York Times fulfills a similar function in America. I suppose they mean the sort of ‘leftist’ ‘liberal’
who says ‘I oppose the war in Iraq because we haven’t sent enough troops over there’
Well said TR.
One aspect of her program that particularly irritates me, is her frequent use of News Ltd or Sky News political correspondents to summarise the day’s political events, with the usual lightly disguised pro government spin.
Today’s piece was nothing more than an extended advertisement for an upcoming Sky News interview with Bush, in blatant contravention of the ABC’s editorial guidelines.
BTW, I think her ratings are going down the tube, which is hardly surprising
It is time that Virginia Trioli was wrapped up in her blue-stocking and sent packing back to Melbourne. Did you hear her purse-lipped denunciation of Andrew Johns this morning? What a dill.
Poor Andrew Johns. I never watch football but I admire the man’s courage, from the newsclips of his ‘confession’ I’ve seen. On that basis alone, he deserves a fair go and should be allowed to get his life back on track and not be torn to pieces by the media. Maybe Virginia doesn’t like football. I know a lot of people like that.