Sorry, Kim, but Blair’s lot have comprehensively won this one. Your points look cheap and shallow, and too many of your supporters are evincing the sort of filthy language and sloppy logic that (finally) got Birdy put on permanent moderation at Catallaxy.

Really, SL?

Kim, from one woman to another I reckon you are a moron.

Like this gem? Coming on top of all the other charmers from people on Tim’s thread, suggesting that she should “fuck off”, calling her “little Kimmy”, suggesting that she undergo FGM, etc.

I think some of the comments on this thread have clearly been influenced by those on the other thread, but having said that, I recognise that some of those new to this thread were arguing cogently and politely. But the level of emotion clearly prevents some from discussing the issues with appropriate regard for others’ right to hold a view. It’s been significant, in that context, that many people have imputed beliefs to those on the opposite side of the argument that they don’t hold without any evidence whatsoever - it’s very clear indeed that no one on this thread condones FGM or holds any view other than that it is a criminal and repulsive and evil practice. But much of the level and tone of the argument doesn’t give me much confidence that it’s worth continuing.

So I think keeping it open at this time serves no productive purpose whatever. If any one has a new perspective on the issues, and wants to engage in a genuine debate about the best way to address FGM without descending into a political stoush or vulgar abuse, then they’re welcome to email me and I’ll consider re-opening the discussion.

sl, I’ve never seen a king-hit delivered with more economy or precision.

You should fight for money!

Given that the contention of the post is that these arguments have nothing much to do with the actual welfare of the people concerned (Mr Strocchi’s solution being “show them the door” - so it’s all about humanitarian concern, is it?) and everything to do with scoring political points over TEH LEFT, there’s a fair degree of irony in that comment, Rob.

As for the laws being useless, that is because the bleeding hearts’ brigade has gutted them to the extent that when I’ve got an altercation in my neighbourhood I don’t even think of calling the police. There will be no police presence until after it’s all sorted, and nothing will happen.

If any “alleged” criminals are caught, they will be let off with a tap on the wrist.

Big whoop.

That is why this abomination occurs at all in our remarkable country.

The women and children who suffer most from these practices are not protected by our laws, because we have to respect their culture. Or their religion.

Sorry, that’s not on.

When will you people who think that all cultures are equal (except your own, of course, which should be denigrated at all turns) wake up to the fact that your culture which gives you the freedom to even have this stupid discussion craps all over the others.

Women in islam, and some animist, and pagan and even sub-saharan african cultures do not deserve to be kept lower than us because of the habits of their forefathers.

This is another country, another time, and a whole new way of life.

Leave the old one behind and join us is a brand new world.

I very much doubt that assimilation contracts would have any effect whatsoever. It’s mindless symbolism. If a practice is illegal at Australian law, that illegality doesn’t get any reinforcement from government mandated bits of paper. If there is evidence that it is occurring, the law should be enforced.

Assimilation would certainly be better than segregation, which is the direct effect of multiculturalism in theory and practice. Mindless symbolism is good. That about sums up the net result of a genuine of bogus Wet ideological activism.

A govt mandated bit of paper could be part of the social contract. After all Wets are always urging govt mandated bits of paper on us, bills of rights, treaties, sorry statements. The difference is that civic cultural contracts would actually do some good.

But the best method to discourage this barbaric practice: Dont let them come here.

And if they persist: show them the door.

kim says:

It would also be useful to know more about what sorts of methods those working against the practice in Australia are using. It would seem to me counterproductive to have loud denunciations of it - the key thing should be to convince people it is wrong.

Rerservations about loud denunciations never seemed to deter Wets when it comes to giving voice to opposition over macro-political evils such as improper wars, torture, climate clogging etc. Why not use them to discourage micro-cultural evils eg child labour, burquas, cousin-marriage and polygamy. This technique work to reduce with wife-bashing amongst Europeans. Why go softly-softly on non-Europeans? Some of them are even more in need of a civic morality check, thanks to morally bankrupt cultural policies.

(I wonder if they’ll ever get around to arguing against the actual Kim.)

Kim, it is not difficult to find the consequences of fgm on google.

For a quick look at how it’s usually done, check here.

Please note that the above link contains photographs that leave nothing to the imagination. If you are squeamish, or believe that as it’s a cultural tradition that we should overlook, then don’t follow the link.

According the the WHO back in 2000:

The immediate and long-term health consequences of female genital mutilation vary according to the type and severity of the procedure performed.

Immediate complications include severe pain, shock, haemorrhage, urine retention, ulceration of the genital region and injury to adjacent tissue. Haemorrhage and infection can cause death.

More recently, concern has arisen about possible transmission of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) due to the use of one instrument in multiple operations, but this has not been the subject of detailed research.

Long-term consequences include cysts and abscesses, keloid scar formation, damage to the urethra resulting in urinary incontinence, dyspareunia (painful sexual intercourse) and sexual dysfunction and difficulties with childbirth.

Psychosexual and psychological health: Genital mutilation may leave a lasting mark on the life and mind of the woman who has undergone it. In the longer term, women may suffer feelings of incompleteness, anxiety and depression.

As a woman, I consider fgm to be an outrage. As someone who no longer calls herself a feminist, I find it disgusting that there is vacillation about what feminists should do about it all.

Currently in Australia, about the only action being taken is by those working with the communities here in Oz to educate those recipients, and possible potential recipients of fgm.

After all, we can’t be seen to be condemning something like this.

I’m exceedingly angry about this hemming and hawing about it all, Kim, so please bear with me if I get a bit harsh.

This is one activity which should be condemned out of hand. The doctors that I’ve heard of who do practice it use the excuse that it’s going to happen to the girl anyway, so at least this way it’ll be done in a clean and sterile environment and cause the least amount of damage.

I guess, in the interests of celebrating my daughter’s partially chinese heritage I should have bound her feet when she was two.

Since she’s nearly five now, maybe I can find someone to cut her up so I can fit more into my incredibly multicultural neighbourhood in the municipality of Casey. You know, the one with about 150 different nationalities or so.

This disgusts me like nothing else, and I can’t understand why those who call themselves “feminists” sit back and bleat about how it’s the culture.

Fuck the culture. It is women being mutilated in order that they not participate fully in sexual enjoyment, nor take any pleasure in their bodies and natural and wonderful.

My wife (nurse, has seen some of the butchery inflicted by the barbarism of mangling the genitals of little girls and it moved her to tears), noted something which made me pause. She said:

What would a person like Kim actually do if the father of the cute little 8 year old girl next door let slip that tomorrow, at midday, the witchdoctor was coming around to slice off her clitoris and labia with a razor blade, sans anaesthetic?

Would she say: ‘Having a witchdoctor hack off that little girl’s clitoris and labia with a razor blade is an abhorrent practice, and I am very sorry that it will be inflicted on the little 8 year old girl tomorrow at 1200. But rather than preaching about allegedly universal values and some sort of right that “weâ€? have to intervene and perhaps more importantly for the ideological obsessives, only to do so in such a way as will satisfy our own preconceptions, it might be worthwhile reflecting on the actual realities on the ground in country where it occurs and the methods activists are using to counter these cultural practices.’

and then make sure she was down at the coffee shop sipping soy latte and earnestly discussing the pro-active nature of modern feminism with like minded progressives at 1200 next day? After all, that would avoid having to listen to all that icky screaming in agony as the little girl was mangled.

Or would she actually put her own feminist butt on the line to stop it from happening?

Somehow, I think she’d be at the coffee shop.

I think that is wrong. We all (left, right and calathumpian) should be able to concur at least on something like that, surely?

MarkL
Canberra

Oh, before the accusations of chickenhawkery/oh-you-pose-the-question-what-would-you-do start, yes, I know that mutilating the genitals of little girls is illegal in Australia so yes, the responsible authorities would be told by me/mine, and I’d have a bunch of mates around just in case they did not show up on time. I do not condone criminal acts whatsoever. But then I am a non-nuanced bloke who understands that there are moral absolutes in the world - like evil. I regard practices such as hacking up little kiddies as barbaric, and as evil. They have no place in Australia at all.

Who cares about Bone, open your eyes. Judging by your astonishing inability to process what Ayaan Hirsi Ali is saying about aspects of the world in the 21st century and the sheer reality of 24hr protection from deadly fanatical ignorant repressed and undeterred men, its obvious you are either a denialist or an analyst lite at a vastly different end of the modern feminist spectrum to me. I hope I never see you set foot in my university.

You should fight for money!

Who here has condoned the oppressive behaviour against Islamic women? Cite?

Kim on 1 June 2007 at 11:39 pm

Sorry, steve at the pub…where precisely has anyone on this thread justified the practice of FGM? The post condemns it. Cite some actually existing “western liberal apologistâ€? please.

This is a good example of the extreme intellectual naivety, bordering on disingenuity, of Larva Prodder ethnic racket apologists. Its on a par with Bolshevik apologists complaining that they do not intend poverty and tyranny when they institute collectivization. It just sort of…happens every time these policies are pursued.

An ideological activist is responsible for objective consequences of bad policy, irrespective of subjective motives. That is why responsible social scientists concentrate on “unintended consequences”.

Good intentions are not enough. We see how the road to hell is paved with good intentions, or unciteable non-bad intentions, in policy areas as diverse as Aboriginal welfare, the Iraq war and multiculturalism.

The fact is that in immigrant cultural policy lax selection and mad settlement policies will breed barbaraties like FGM just as surely as if they were mandated by constitutional referrendum.

So people like Kim and Tigtog are responsible for their gross ignorance and wanton indifference to the nasty consequences of their silly ideas. Made much worse because it violates at cause they hold dear to their hearts: womens rights.

But then the Bolsheviks claimed to have the workers rights at heart which did not stop that revolution from being betrayed from within. And overthrown by the clients eg Solidarity.

Kim et al seem to have a tin ear, deaf to the clanging ironies of History

You don’t like Ali because the righties like her and find comfort in her views. Hey, maybe they’re right, and politics isn’t a useful lens through which to view this. The fact that Islamists are mostly brown and poor doesn’t protect them from being more full of shit than the most egregious colonialist and racist. Maybe the only reasonable response is to blow the crap out of them and grind their culture and their religion into the dirt - a 21st century version of what the Romans did to Carthage. Whatever happens, in my country at least, I prefer my liberal democratic rules. Sure, people aren’t going to read John Stuart Mill and FA Hayek at gunpoint, but at least I can raise high the barriers and keep the really misogynistic anti-market-in-ideas grubs out of Australia.

Look, I like your stuff, and you’re one of the most astute bloggers around, but you backed the wrong horse on this one.

Afghanistan was an imperialist war?

You’ve completely lost it Robert. You need to look at the root causes to understand why the US felt the need to defend itself by attacking the Taliban, and condemning Osama to die in a hole.

Antway, I thought the left’s position was that Afghanistan was OK (or at least would have been if anyone but Bush led it), and that only Iraq is the imperialist war. Or is that only the public position?

The horrifying party political reality is that the ALP, having junked left-wing economics in 1983, has now junked pomo multiculti. The exposed carcass is not pretty and stinks to high heaven.

There is one thing you must remember when analysing postmodernism. It is not POST at all. It is ANTI. The central tenet of pomo ideology that the liberal progressive promise of modernity was a fraud. To wit, the multiculti pomo types are PRE-modern.

It is this reality that sees them so quickly having to resort ethical and intellectual balletics that not even Rudolph Nureyev would have attempted.

That is also why, it quickly gets to the gutter when all they have is to call you names - racist, Islamophobe, misogynist, homophobe……

Kim seizes on a couple of the more ill-advised things Hirsi Ali says with a relieved eagerness and one suspects bad faith.

Inurbanus is at liberty to suspect anything s/he likes.

I guess s/he flatters her/himself that her/his suspicions are sufficient to sustain any charge s/he wishes to make, not matter how reckless.

If true, how quaint

And how egotistical.

Now even their own former comrades are turning on them, not to mention what would once have been their “clients”, such as Ms Ali.

THe game is up. People have stopped listening to po-mo, multi-culti pee-cee clap-trap ages ago. They are preaching to an ever declining captive audience.

The rotting remnant of the New Left is the most effective barrier to social democracy in this country. The only person who really benefits from flogging the New Left’s dead horse is John Howard. He can rightfully suggest that such people should not be allowed near the tiller of the ship of state.

Why dont you be honest about your mistakes, admit that you stuffed up sociology and ignored biology. Stonewalling about the debacle of the Culture War only makes you look like GW Bush desperately squinting for light at the end of the tunnel in the Terror War.

Some of the world’s top on-Muslim Koranic scholars have to publish under a pseudonym for very real fear of being martyred. And woe betide any Islamic scholar who ever had the temerity to point the philological impossibility of The Koran having been delivered to Muhammad in Arabic.