Comments on: The job network and conflicts of interest http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/ Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:00:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: David Rubie http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373246 David Rubie Fri, 01 Jun 2007 01:59:27 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373246 steve at the pub said: <blockquote>Dead right Dan le Roux! Nobody even gets a job interview with me until they are able to provide rock solid proof they are a member of the Liberal Party.</blockquote> I think all five members already have jobs steve. You might be getting a flood of applicants soon though - with all sort of government experience. steve at the pub said:

Dead right Dan le Roux! Nobody even gets a job interview with me until they are able to provide rock solid proof they are a member of the Liberal Party.

I think all five members already have jobs steve.

You might be getting a flood of applicants soon though - with all sort of government experience.

]]> By: Dany le roux http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373185 Dany le roux Thu, 31 May 2007 19:00:05 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373185 Anghardad, If you are in the business why not go to a public library and using a different blog identity tell us all what really goes on in JN providers' offices? Steve at the Pub, Mate it sounds as though your business requires people with the skills and the necessary opportunist outlook to run a chook raffle .You should be praised for not exposing long term unemployed to such ephemeral work. Anghardad,
If you are in the business why not go to a public library and using a different blog identity tell us all what really goes on in JN providers’ offices?

Steve at the Pub,
Mate it sounds as though your business requires people with the skills and the necessary opportunist outlook to run a chook raffle .You should be praised for not exposing long term unemployed to such ephemeral work.

]]> By: steve at the pub http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373091 steve at the pub Thu, 31 May 2007 13:18:33 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373091 Dead right Dan le Roux! Nobody even gets a job interview with me until they are able to provide rock solid proof they are a member of the Liberal Party. Dead right Dan le Roux! Nobody even gets a job interview with me until they are able to provide rock solid proof they are a member of the Liberal Party.

]]> By: Angharad http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373035 Angharad Thu, 31 May 2007 11:22:49 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373035 Cynically - I can't see any goverment getting rid of Job Network, or at least an outsourced version of job placement because it costs them less than when they did it themselves. That said, they've got very good at contract management and there's very little profit left in the core service of Job Network. Only those who can get economies of scale and keep 'performance' high can stay in the game. In fact DEWR has got so good at managing the contract I think they've lost sight of the real aim, to get people into jobs. Rein's mob just lost a whole lot of JN contracts in the latest round of reviews btw. It's a tough business to be in. And not a very attractive business either, I'd hope that it can shift in the future and really look at the stuff that's not working for the long term unemployed and those marginally attached to the workforce. Disclaimer: I am employed by one of the majors in this market but in a different area of the business. Cynically - I can’t see any goverment getting rid of Job Network, or at least an outsourced version of job placement because it costs them less than when they did it themselves. That said, they’ve got very good at contract management and there’s very little profit left in the core service of Job Network. Only those who can get economies of scale and keep ‘performance’ high can stay in the game. In fact DEWR has got so good at managing the contract I think they’ve lost sight of the real aim, to get people into jobs.

Rein’s mob just lost a whole lot of JN contracts in the latest round of reviews btw. It’s a tough business to be in. And not a very attractive business either, I’d hope that it can shift in the future and really look at the stuff that’s not working for the long term unemployed and those marginally attached to the workforce.

Disclaimer: I am employed by one of the majors in this market but in a different area of the business.

]]> By: Bill Posters http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373001 Bill Posters Thu, 31 May 2007 10:07:27 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-373001 <blockquote>In many ways, it’s really a scam for people to make money (and to prop up churches whose income streams from parishioners are drying up) rather than a well targetted system of labour market assistance. WDA is not the only mob who’ve made a fortune from the JN.</blockquote> Which makes Therese Rein a scammer. Labour hire firms have always been bottom-feeding scum; the JN twist doesn't do anything to alter that.

In many ways, it’s really a scam for people to make money (and to prop up churches whose income streams from parishioners are drying up) rather than a well targetted system of labour market assistance. WDA is not the only mob who’ve made a fortune from the JN.

Which makes Therese Rein a scammer.

Labour hire firms have always been bottom-feeding scum; the JN twist doesn’t do anything to alter that.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372983 Mark Thu, 31 May 2007 08:56:55 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372983 <blockquote>I am still concerned that Labor may be less likely to properly review the “scam� because it might reflect badly on the first lady.</blockquote> Yes, me too, joe2. Hence: <blockquote>It would <strong>seem, at least at this stage</strong>, that Labor has proceeded ethically and that its policy process hasn’t been influenced by any potential conflict of interest.</blockquote>

I am still concerned that Labor may be less likely to properly review the “scam� because it might reflect badly on the first lady.

Yes, me too, joe2. Hence:

It would seem, at least at this stage, that Labor has proceeded ethically and that its policy process hasn’t been influenced by any potential conflict of interest.

]]> By: joe2 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372978 joe2 Thu, 31 May 2007 08:35:34 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372978 Job network is partly itself a job creation scheme. As the Penny Wong discussion paper suggests, the majority of 'clients', directed to them, pick up work by themselves. Whether by the grapevine or increasingly internet job ad sites. So big money is picked up from the government for the offer of a flash new CV or a new pair of boots, if the punter is lucky enough. The long term unemployed become longer term unemployed and instead of any training or education get the chain gang; so unsympathetically known as 'work for the dole'. You have to wonder why, if the work these poor sods have to do, is actually "work", why the slave drivers, who coined this expression, could not give them the dignity of at least acknowledging it as such, without the extra, cruel caveat of "dole". It is a sick joke on the most disadvantaged and unempowered. Well done Mark, for going for the wider issue, than just the focus on the Rein. I am still concerned that Labor may be less likely to properly review the "scam" because it might reflect badly on the first lady. Still, that is one bridge I hope they have to cross. Job network is partly itself a job creation scheme. As the Penny Wong discussion paper suggests, the majority of ‘clients’, directed to them, pick up work by themselves. Whether by the grapevine or increasingly internet job ad sites. So big money is picked up from the government for the offer of a flash new CV or a new pair of boots, if the punter is lucky enough.

The long term unemployed become longer term unemployed and instead of any training or education get the chain gang; so unsympathetically known as ‘work for the dole’.

You have to wonder why, if the work these poor sods have to do, is actually “work”, why the slave drivers, who coined this expression, could not give them the dignity of at least acknowledging it as such, without the extra, cruel caveat of “dole”. It is a sick joke on the most disadvantaged and unempowered.

Well done Mark, for going for the wider issue, than just the focus on the Rein.
I am still concerned that Labor may be less likely to properly review the “scam” because it might reflect badly on the first lady. Still, that is one bridge I hope they have to cross.

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372921 Mark Thu, 31 May 2007 06:01:20 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372921 <blockquote>I don’t think it was ever intended to work in that form and was purposefully devised to ram as many people as possible into any shit kicking position. The entire system from it’s structure through to the providers and the one’s doing the funding is crooked. It all fit’s perfectly with the usual right wing suspects ideals that there should be a large pool of unemployed to choose from for the big businesses who can and should have the power to hire and fire them at will. Expendable cannon fodder.</blockquote> That's pretty much my view. In many ways, it's really a scam for people to make money (and to prop up churches whose income streams from parishioners are drying up) rather than a well targetted system of labour market assistance. WDA is not the only mob who've made a fortune from the JN.

I don’t think it was ever intended to work in that form and was purposefully devised to ram as many people as possible into any shit kicking position. The entire system from it’s structure through to the providers and the one’s doing the funding is crooked. It all fit’s perfectly with the usual right wing suspects ideals that there should be a large pool of unemployed to choose from for the big businesses who can and should have the power to hire and fire them at will. Expendable cannon fodder.

That’s pretty much my view. In many ways, it’s really a scam for people to make money (and to prop up churches whose income streams from parishioners are drying up) rather than a well targetted system of labour market assistance. WDA is not the only mob who’ve made a fortune from the JN.

]]> By: Robert Bollard http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372915 Robert Bollard Thu, 31 May 2007 05:49:49 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372915 When I worked for the J/N, the one thing going for it was that it was relatively well paid. I started in 1998 on $41k , which was about standard. That was $3k more than a Class 4 (the standard operating level) had made in the CES. Just after I left in 2001, as I understand it, the Gov. cracked down on the more obvious rorting. The response of the companies was to dramatically lower the salaries of their staff. Now, as Mark mentions, the pay is often around 30k. The staff turnover was big before. It must me massive now. When I worked for the J/N, the one thing going for it was that it was relatively well paid. I started in 1998 on $41k , which was about standard. That was $3k more than a Class 4 (the standard operating level) had made in the CES. Just after I left in 2001, as I understand it, the Gov. cracked down on the more obvious rorting. The response of the companies was to dramatically lower the salaries of their staff. Now, as Mark mentions, the pay is often around 30k.
The staff turnover was big before. It must me massive now.

]]> By: Dan le roux http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372908 Dan le roux Thu, 31 May 2007 05:24:04 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372908 Steve at the Pub, Unemployed people are obliged to use the JN if they wish to go on collecting their dole money.If you do not any longer use it what do you use?Is your labour skilled or in Futt's words "shitkicker"? Do you import your labour from overseas or use a recruiter? How can you reject all job applicants from the JN simply because they come via the JN?I have heard that for a certain large utility all staff are card carrying members of the Liberal Party.Does your place of employment make similar demands of its workforce? Steve at the Pub,

Unemployed people are obliged to use the JN if they wish to go on collecting their dole money.If you do not any longer use it what do you use?Is your labour skilled or in Futt’s words “shitkicker”? Do you import your labour from overseas or use a recruiter? How can you reject all job applicants from the JN simply because they come via the JN?I have heard that for a certain large utility all staff are card carrying members of the Liberal Party.Does your place of employment make similar demands of its workforce?

]]> By: philip travers http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372898 philip travers Thu, 31 May 2007 04:22:27 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372898 Some remarkably stupid statements here,and I will not give evidence,accept to say is some work that people have to apply for intelligent enough for applicants!? You may run a pub,but how much hotels are sometimes like the bank robber =doctors ,is in the treatment of disease. And I do not think Labor is ethical about anything it does,and example is what the problem was with Mighell! If a union official cannot use the same tactics a business to win profits ,what are they then talking about. In the arsenal of business includes going for tender,and auctioning,credit out of debt against competitors etc. And seeing a American warned Australian pensioners about their funds in Macquarie Bank,who of recent times wanted to be a numero there? Well coca cola drinker no doubt and get a hip replacement later,Bob Cark.Sorry I am biased,my father was a life-long supporter of Labor and voted once out of nervousness because the poll place was across the roads.Unions didnt do much for him in his life,because being sweaty and laboring didnt gel well with the drunks not far from Carlton and United.Now even sober electricians get it in the neck.They are a abomination Labor. Ask the appropriate question!?How long did it take Master Hawke as a Union worker in many guises to achieve the beer money breakthrough!? The only reason the ALP exist is to keep the lazy non thinkers in the income they receive by the rip off of anyone they can. Mighell played the same game,and soap has never been needed of business peoples mouths.!?Surely a gross over reaction if there was one,the pathetic bastards! Some remarkably stupid statements here,and I will not give evidence,accept to say is some work that people have to apply for intelligent enough for applicants!? You may run a pub,but how much hotels are sometimes like the bank robber =doctors ,is in the treatment of disease. And I do not think Labor is ethical about anything it does,and example is what the problem was with Mighell! If a union official cannot use the same tactics a business to win profits ,what are they then talking about. In the arsenal of business includes going for tender,and auctioning,credit out of debt against competitors etc. And seeing a American warned Australian pensioners about their funds in Macquarie Bank,who of recent times wanted to be a numero there? Well coca cola drinker no doubt and get a hip replacement later,Bob Cark.Sorry I am biased,my father was a life-long supporter of Labor and voted once out of nervousness because the poll place was across the roads.Unions didnt do much for him in his life,because being sweaty and laboring didnt gel well with the drunks not far from Carlton and United.Now even sober electricians get it in the neck.They are a abomination Labor. Ask the appropriate question!?How long did it take Master Hawke as a Union worker in many guises to achieve the beer money breakthrough!? The only reason the ALP exist is to keep the lazy non thinkers in the income they receive by the rip off of anyone they can. Mighell played the same game,and soap has never been needed of business peoples mouths.!?Surely a gross over reaction if there was one,the pathetic bastards!

]]> By: Futt Bucker http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372888 Futt Bucker Thu, 31 May 2007 03:45:57 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372888 I've pretty much had my say on all this in the other thread but I don't believe the debate should be about why the JN system doesn't work (in an ethical sense). I don't think it was ever intended to work in that form and was purposefully devised to ram as many people as possible into any shit kicking position. The entire system from it's structure through to the providers and the one's doing the funding is crooked. It all fit's perfectly with the usual right wing suspects ideals that there should be a large pool of unemployed to choose from for the big businesses who can and should have the power to hire and fire them at will. Expendable cannon fodder. Thankfully that article by Ken has come out and confirmed to who ever is supposedly listening that people are not objects and why Howard's WorkChoices, Job Network's and Welfare To Work "reforms" were the most deceitful acts witnessed by any government in sometime. I’ve pretty much had my say on all this in the other thread but I don’t believe the debate should be about why the JN system doesn’t work (in an ethical sense). I don’t think it was ever intended to work in that form and was purposefully devised to ram as many people as possible into any shit kicking position. The entire system from it’s structure through to the providers and the one’s doing the funding is crooked. It all fit’s perfectly with the usual right wing suspects ideals that there should be a large pool of unemployed to choose from for the big businesses who can and should have the power to hire and fire them at will. Expendable cannon fodder.

Thankfully that article by Ken has come out and confirmed to who ever is supposedly listening that people are not objects and why Howard’s WorkChoices, Job Network’s and Welfare To Work “reforms” were the most deceitful acts witnessed by any government in sometime.

]]> By: steve at the pub http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372881 steve at the pub Thu, 31 May 2007 03:32:02 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372881 Precisely Mark. It is a chicken/egg problem. The product is hopeless the way it is currently packaged. Would better staff improve employer/unemployed satisfaction? (Upon reflection I hesitate to use the word "client", for really that is federal govt) Or would the current structure of the JN mean that no matter how it is staffed, it will revert to the current standard of staffing? Why would competent staff remain in such an unrewarding position? Who would put quality staff (who command higher pay) into a business/job which does not require it? Every so often a bright young thing comes to see me, gushing about what JN can "do" for me. When I explain that dealing with JN (even talking to her) is a waste of my time, & explain why, they usually are unable to process what I tell them. Nor do they care. But they do stay out of my way, at least until another person steps into their role, & she starts all over again.... Precisely Mark.

It is a chicken/egg problem. The product is hopeless the way it is currently packaged.

Would better staff improve employer/unemployed satisfaction? (Upon reflection I hesitate to use the word “client”, for really that is federal govt)

Or would the current structure of the JN mean that no matter how it is staffed, it will revert to the current standard of staffing?

Why would competent staff remain in such an unrewarding position?

Who would put quality staff (who command higher pay) into a business/job which does not require it?

Every so often a bright young thing comes to see me, gushing about what JN can “do” for me. When I explain that dealing with JN (even talking to her) is a waste of my time, & explain why, they usually are unable to process what I tell them. Nor do they care.

But they do stay out of my way, at least until another person steps into their role, & she starts all over again….

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372876 Mark Thu, 31 May 2007 02:43:18 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372876 My point, steve, is that the people who work in the JN often are not trained and skilled to do anything much other than the basics of fitting square pegs into round holes or doing the paperwork to collect the money when clients get jobs (often with no actual input or help from the provider). In terms of performance, both the two papers I've linked to suggest other ways in which incentives could be provided for far more meaningful outcomes. Achieving such outcomes, though, would require better resourced and trained staff. My point, steve, is that the people who work in the JN often are not trained and skilled to do anything much other than the basics of fitting square pegs into round holes or doing the paperwork to collect the money when clients get jobs (often with no actual input or help from the provider). In terms of performance, both the two papers I’ve linked to suggest other ways in which incentives could be provided for far more meaningful outcomes. Achieving such outcomes, though, would require better resourced and trained staff.

]]> By: steve at the pub http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372874 steve at the pub Thu, 31 May 2007 02:40:27 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/31/the-job-network-and-conflicts-of-interest/#comment-372874 The job network is one big perversity. I am a former client, one who will never again use it. Every business I know who has used it not only found it to be totally unsatisfactory, suggesting they give it "one more go" triggers instant derisive laughter. Though how else to pay people, if not by performance? Certainly a business paying people by training & skills alone is ..er.. incredibly stupid. The job network is one big perversity. I am a former client, one who will never again use it. Every business I know who has used it not only found it to be totally unsatisfactory, suggesting they give it “one more go” triggers instant derisive laughter.

Though how else to pay people, if not by performance? Certainly a business paying people by training & skills alone is ..er.. incredibly stupid.

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