Two of the most protracted stoushes we’ve had at this blog for some time resulted from my two posts on Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The rhetorical ramifications of this “debate” (if a lot of shouting and calling for “loud denunciations” can be characterised accurately that way) rumble on, with a serve at me in Saturday’s Age from Julie Szego. The article isn’t online, at least not yet. [Update: Via Tim Sterne in comments, here it is.] Fortunately I’m saved the dubious pleasure of having to reply to Szego by the excellent job Helen has done in a post at Cast Iron Balcony. Go read.
Helen underlines the way the issue of FGM has been harnessed for essentially political purposes, something I was critical of in my two posts:
Feminists have known about FGM (as well as many of the other atrocities taking place in “traditional� societies) for many years, because other feminists have written about it, as well as other dreadful lefty organisations. The “conservatives� have paid scant attention to it until now, when it’s been discovered as a handy wedge. This is a truly disgusting attempt to use genuine suffering to try and score off your perceived enemies, and professional journalists should surely be alert to the faux “feminism� espoused by some people who really have no shame at all. Excuse me but I have to go and have a shower with steel wool now.
I would remark that Szego seems to show a very dubious grasp of how blogs work. At least, that’s a charitable interpretation of the reasons why she might have chosen to pull one quote from me out of context from the middle of a debate, when my position and response to criticisms was set out clearly after much of the initial sound and fury had subsided. It’s also somewhat trivialising to refer to the whole discussion as just a “little blogosphere spat”, but then trivialising complex positions is the name of this game. I’m also a bit suspicious that Szego only quotes from the bit that Tim Blair used in his post. I wonder whether she actually went to the trouble of reading what I wrote, or whether she prefers not to have her preconceptions disturbed.
And over at Surfdom, Gianna looks at the confused logic of the columnists whose ruminations on Hirsi Ali and TEH SECULAR LEFT are actually online - Janet Albrechtsen and Miranda Devine. For some unknown technical reason, the post doesn’t work properly at the moment in Firefox, but you can read it in IE.
Why do Janet Albrechtsen and Miranda Devine hate women so much? And why do they loathe Western culture so much, while projecting this loathing onto progressive Western women?
Each of these conservative commentators wrote a piece last week cynically using Hiyaan Hirsi Ali as a tool to attack progressive women, while under the pretext of championing the rights of Muslim women around the world.
Their argument is so convoluted it baffles me.
Both women frequently accuse Western progressives/feminists of “loathing Western culture� and yet if you read their words, they are the ones who loathe our culture. They talk of “wanton women� and shudder at the idea of Paris Hilton’s existence. They claim our culture needs to change, to be more conservative, in order to please not only our patriarchy, but also patriarchal Muslim society. They hate the fact that women here are liberated–sexually or otherwise–and yet they brag about the West’s famous freedoms.
They sound very conflicted.
Update: tigtog writes a meta post on this debate.
Further update: Mark has entered the debate at On Line Opinion.
Hi Kim. Szego’s article is online here.
Thanks Tim - I was unable to find it. Next time I’m able I’ll update my post with a link.
Gianna’s observations on Albrechtsen / Devine remind me of similar convolutions on the part of Dinesh D’Souza (entertainingly described by Katha Pollitt).
I certainly agree that the performance of Mr Blair et al was disgusting but I think there was more to it than a simple desire to score a point. It seems to me that the Australian right, or a section there of, is becoming increasingly obsessed with symbolism.
The trend has been developing for a while, but the picking up and subsequent failure of liberal interventionist ideas has really cemented symbolism, in this case the demand for symbolic denunciations in the place of practical action, as part of the political culture of the right.
Thanks, Tim.
Good on you Kim. I can’t wait for the inevitable metaphorical gang-rape by Timmy’s trogs.
I was going mention D’Souza as well after reading Gianna as well. Oh, if only we had less freedom then the terrorists would leave us alone.
Dear Kim
This sort of puke is why I stopped buying the Age ( apart from Sat and the green guide edition) This is the rag that inflicted Tony fucking Parkinson on us for YEARS! Hey thank fuck we have the net now.
As for anyone quoting Tim chickenhawk Blair seriously…they probably take wingnut welfare queens like Mark Steyn seriously too.
You gotta laugh.
One other thing about this ‘leftist elite’ strawman the frothing far right are beating up on is that their votes don’t count. Last election about a million innner city votes went down the toilet while the National Socialists parked their well padded butts on 11 green leather couch seats in the house. These lunar right foamers are just common bullies.
All the best - love from professor rat
You can’t put it more plainly than this. Szego is saying that Ali’s book requires a response at the level of gut solidarity, not rationality. The nature of the political position you hold it unimportant, the only critical thing is that you take one.
Nailed it Chris.
ali makes sense to those who want to think simple thoughts. The above is the most reductive way to imagine Islam. Islam is reconfigured (’backward’) according to a certain strain in the values system of “Western liberal democracy”. It is easy to produce an opposite list for “[capitalist] Western liberal democracy” based on sexism, apathy and total seduction.
Ali is described as a “brave, outspoken, slightly simplistic Enlightenment fundamentalist” and I think the ’slightly simplistic’ is a bloody understatement. Only fools believe that human history pivots around the enlightenment.
Foucault’s comments on the iranian revolution regarding the “spiritual materialism” (or post-kantian enthusiasm) of islamic fundamentalists are just as apt for fundamentalist “[capitalist] Western liberal democrats”. His comments have also been radically misunderstood by ’slightly simplistic’ critics.
Which is the ultimate irony, since she’s being held up as the incarnation of “Enlightenment reason”.
I put the words “female genital mutilation” and “feminism” into Google and this is what I found:
[Link]
I am in the midst of reading Infidel and am finding it a challenging and interesting read. Ayaan Hirsi Ali certainly gives thanks to certain Dutch feminists in it. The other night on The Religion Report, the presenter made a point of saying that at a recent forum in Sydney some woman had suggested that FGM was “beautiful”. I suspect few people suffer from such a bad case of cultural relativism. Frankly, I am soooooooooooooo bored of the debates about the left/right etc. While wankers from the West try to prove how progressive or how not progressive others are, women continue to suffer.
Edit by AW: Link fixed.
Sorry, link doesn’t work, but you get the idea.
Frankly, I thought the article in The Age was a good indication of how the blogosphere is beginning to diminish the quality of the mainstream media.
I thought the article in The Age was a good indication of how the blogosphere is beginning to diminish the quality of the mainstream media.
Sheesh. That sounds a bit OTT Darlene. Emphasis on *sounds* - the meaning is unclear as it stands. Care to expand?
Tee hee, Helen. I probably was being over-the-top. Any excuse to put a photo of my little pussy cat, Jess, up (she’s the avatar).
I am just wondering when blogs becoming something that people quote in newspaper articles. Does that constitute research? What about looking at scholarly journals etc
Szego condemns herself:
1. Isn’t the prime responsibility of a opinion shaper to ask and to attempt to answer the most pressing questions? And there is nothing more pressing than the question about how an undoubted threat to civil society is best to be countered.
2. What relevance can how a debate has been conducted in the past have to how it ought to be conducted by a responsible professional opinion-shaper?
Shape up Szego, you’re a grown up person. Your boss should be judging you by grown-up standards.
Memo to the Editor of the Age: when are you going to judge Szego by recognisable standards of professionalism?
The latest Blair thread basically gives up the pretence that this “denunciation” is about FGM, as his commenters seize the opportunity to call me a “twat” and bag “lefties”. Etc.
http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/woman_edited/
I thought Szego’s article was spot on.
I challenge a lefty to put their views on why Islam is not oppressive to women in a short, simple sentence. The rules are:
no words over three syllables
no adjectives unless absolutely necessary
no quoting long-dead philosophers
Here’s the righty view, in accordance with the rules:
Islamic men cut off part of the vaginas of Islamic women, which is barbaric.
Now you go.
What a stupid assessment. FGM is as rotten a form of pedophelia as any; and most people, left or right, would condemn it. Considering it a wedge because rightists confront Kim with her seeming lack of support for Ali’s position is dumb. It’s some of the left’s lack of will to uphold Ali’s desire to fervently expose this terrible practice which has stirred this pot. And, much as I respect you Kim and your otherwise considered social position on issues, I am surprised how much support the left is giving you on this, and how much fodder they are prepared to give the right by being so supportive. I think you’re creating your own wedge, actually.
Perpetrators, whatever their religious or social background should be either educated and persuaded out of the practice, or, if non-compliant, prosecuted wherever possible. However, in a way, Kim has done us a favour by reminding us how onerous the knife-wielders are, for which she shoud be congratulated. But there is no doubt that it should be considered a disgusting, demeaning and harmful practice which violates young girls, and it should be shouted from the rooftops if a particular religion uses it as a ‘cultural’ symbol.
But don’t accuse any sane person of ignoring it or using it as a wedge, right or left.
I cant believe you’ve bought this up again Kim
In fairness, that commentator might only be calling you a nun’s wimple, as Browning thought the word meant. On reflection, though, I rather doubt it.
Except that ONE single religion doesn’t use it as a cultural symbol.
FGM is a cultural NOT religious practice. It is in fact similar to the way certain pagan rituals have been incorporated into christian religious practices in some areas.
I first became aware of FGM back in the 1980s. The victim was from a CHRISTIAN family of ME background and it was also justified on erroneous ‘religious grounds’.
Facelift, I hardly think that’s fair. Have you read what I’ve previously written on this? To save you the trouble I’ll paste in the relevant bits:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/06/04/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-the-fgm-debate/
On the same day the Editor judges Catherine Deveny and Tracee Hutchinson, I hope. The Age is an Augean stable of journalism and in the absence of the river Alpeus to re-route through it to clean it out it may take the Yarra to do the job.
Max, you don’t think you’d want to respond if you were bagged in a major metropolitan newspaper?
FaceLift says:
FaceLift, how often do how many of us need to reiterate (most recently Kim herself again and LearnTheDifferenceBetweenCULTUREandRELIGION, above) that FGM is NOT an Islam-specific practice or anything like one, and is most certainly not a ‘cultural symbol’ of it.
Is it that you don’t read these posts and comments, which are usually plentifully referenced, or is it just that you don’t want to believe them or the evidence they cite?
Bismarck says
I rather doubt it too, Bismarck. Most of Bl**r’s slavering wingnut hordes wouldn’t recognise Browning if they fell over him.
Like Kiala, I thought Szego’s article was pretty good, and well nuanced.
I don’t think she was really having a go at you, Kim. I think her point is about the weirdness of the debate around Ali. There’s certainly been a degree of appropriation of Ali by the right. But equally, there’s been a degree of self-conscious distancing by the left.
Interesting dynamics.
My actual point is that FGM shouldn’t be considered a ‘wedge’ issue when there is clearly a fair amount of indignation and support over Kim’s original angst-filled post, which she has subsequently attempted to either justify or clarify, and which I accept s her defined position.
I, in fact, said ‘if a particular religion uses it as a ‘cultural’ symbol’, which, if you read it correctly and in context, suggests it is erronneous to claim religious foundations for the practice when it is clearly cultural, LearnTheDifferenceBetweenCULTUREandRELIGION, and PC, neither did I specify any particluar religion, so your criticism is unfounded. However there are some religions which would consider their cult/ural basics an inclusive, or even conclusive part of their religion, so where and how do you create a divide between the two?
I think the expression you’re reaching for, Mme. Pavlova, is “flying monkey”, and the plural noun is “timmitude”.
What a ridiculous stoush this turned out to be. Three fecking farcical threads. And all because Kimberella had the disgustingly depraved temerity to suggest the Islamophobes’ favourite [don’t forget telegenic!] professional martyr is somewhat lacking in intellectual depth and practical solutions.
*Gasps. Swoons. Conspicuously denounces Kim for her outrageous support for FGM. Enjoys reassuring glow of moral superiority. Rinse. Repeat.*
BFD. Bring back the rape and abortion threads, I say.
But the point, FaceLift, is that in articles like those by Szego (and I don’t see much nuance there, Rob), Devine and Albrechtsen’s, it very clearly is.
I do agree with that, though!
Hmmm. I see that speaking “truth to power” is becomes limited when the “power” has a tendency to cut the speaker’s heads off and post the video on YouTube.
Reality is, Kim, that you are cowardly scum.
Fuck off.
Thanks for that expression of support for Enlightenment reason and demonstration that feminism is an Australian core value, murph.
You could at least have tried to think up a different talking point this time:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/06/04/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-the-fgm-debate/#comment-374189
Furthermore, it is people like you who are the reason this sort of thing is becoming increasingly prevalent.
Banaz Mahmod Aga is dead because it is more detrimental to one’s police career to be falsely accused of racial or cultural insensitivity, than it is to fail to prevent a murder that blind fred could see coming.
Oh, I’ll expand on my points, although I can’t remember what they were.
Re: Blogs. They are usually not as well-researched as a scholarly article. They are often based on emotion. If the author of The Age article wanted to find academic stuff related to the sorts of issues Ayaan Hirsi Ali raises, she could of. However, I should point out that blogs certainly have value (I was interested to read in the latest edition of Bust an article about Mormon feminist bloggers - it’d be interesting if you could touch on it Kim, if you’ve read it).
And I was making reference to The Religion Report because the author of Infidel was on it the other night. Well, her speech to the Sydney Writers Festival was. Nobody in the audience seemed to agree with a positive view of FGM.
Remember, for some this is just another case of “convenient feminism”.
However, Ms Ali is a terrific and very articulate woman, and she certainly acknowledges the work of Muslim feminists, although she calls herself an atheist these days.
Incidentally, I saw the Dalia Lama (not sure if I know how to spell it), and the very gushing hostess, Kerry Armstrong, didn’t ask him about his attitude to things like homosexuality. Nevertheless, it was quite interesting afternoon. There were lots of young alternative types there. I hope they will embrace the spirit of inter-faith dialogue that was an important part of the event and go see people talk about Catholicism or Anglicanism or Bahaism or whatever.
Sorry, a very digressive rant on my part.
I don’t think Szego was looking for research on the topic, though, Darlene.
A little deliberate provocation going on, which I’ll ignore and just point to a couple of links about honour killing:
http://www.amews.org/review/reviewarticles/mojabfinal.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html
Oh dear Kim I think you owe everybody an apology. Your refusal to wallow in the mire of vapid symbolism is directly causing deaths on the other side of the world right this instant.
Puzzling, though, Chris, because I have never suggested that FGM is defensible on cultural or religious grounds. But I take your broader point
When I said provocation, I meant in relation to honour killing.
You’re right, Kim. She was looking for emotive stuff.
PS - The issue of Bust relates how Mormon women utilise the blogosphere to express their discontents with the church and to debate issues like abortion. It’s worth reading, and it’s certainly interesting to read women claim the mantle feminist even though lots of people would presume that they’re not because of their faith.
What’s Bust, Darlene?
Bust Magazine:
http://www.bust.com/index.php
“For women with something to get off their chests”.
It’s a feminist pop culture mag, which is available from Borders, Mag Nation etc
Not as meaty as Bitch, but fun and intelligent just the same.
Thanks, will check it out.
Groovy website, Darlene.
What we need in Australia is more feminist magazine launch parties!
I don’t understand what you mean by “politicisng.”
If a victim of rape came out to openly talk about the horror of rape (and did a world wide public speaking tour) would you say that they were going the wrong way about it? As an arm chair observer who is never been in the victims shoes, would you claim to have a better insight and approach than they do?
If genitile mutilitation was openly conducted in say the United States and practiced by white catholics and protestents would you adopt your “non-political” approach there too?
And I’m guessing that what you mean by “political approach”, is not to speak out too openly about it lest you stoke provocation among people. But isn’t this what feminists, animals rights activists, enviormentalists, political dissidents and many other groups have been doing all along - i.e. adopting a “political approach” (speaking out, protesting and provoking others) to draw attention to plight and suffering? How are muslim dissidents any different?
The irony is that you too have “politicised” this issue for your convienance - after all criticising certain cultures and the subsequent fear of “provoking them” doesn’t really fit into your PC world view…whilst speaking out on much more trendier issues and provoking other groups of people is perfectly cool and chique.
glad you acknowledged it.
Since we are on the topic of “silencing,” I would to point out the irony of how certain groups of people always complain about some evil conspiracry to silence and stifle their free speech - whether its by a government or some evil joooowesh zionist boogey man.
Yet its that very same group of people who decry and a vilify a woman whose only crime is to merely exercise that same right that they claim are being denied to them. A woman who comes out to speak against A REAL evil and barbaric practice.
For the people who bitch about their views being “stifled” and “censored,” and then simoltenously mock Ali, I would like to ask - how many body guards & police officers do you have escorting you 24/7?
And I’m not refering to this blog (I’ve taken what Kim has said in her defence into account) I’m just making a general observation on the types of reactions Ali has stirred up.
Once again the approach that you claim Ali takes, is one clearly found among many western “intellectuals” - and many among them are Ali’s most strident critics.
Can you back this one up?
Here an article from Wikipedia -
“The countries that practice FGC the most are: Somalia, followed by Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, and Mali…Whilst FGC is widely practiced out in the open by African Muslims, it is practiced in secrecy in some parts of the Middle East. The practice occurs particularly in northern Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, and Iraq, and there is also circumstantial evidence to suggest it is present in Syria, western Iran and southern Turkey.[13] ”
In case anyone wasn’t aware - Somalia, Egypt, Sudan and Ethipioa are all mulsim countries.
Once again, can you back this one up - especially with the Jews? I’ve never heard of this being practiced among Jews and have a feeling that your getting a little desperate in a bid to prove a typical PC point - that everything is relative.
How on earth can anyone conclude that someone like Kim is:
It goes to show that blogs have increasingly become a forum which some people are using to make ad hominem attacks on others, whilst all the while refusing to engage with the substance of the topic under discussion.
Cheers…
“I don’t think Szego was looking for research on the topic, though, Darlene.”
Bit puzzled by your and Darlene’s posts. This was an experiential account of an encounter with a remarkable individual. It was honest, straightforward, acknowledged Ali’s occasional arrogance, the many dimensions of the debate, not star-struck. This was not an academic paper — it described an experience and the sometimes conflicting emotions that went with it.
I mean, we’ve all been there.
Kim you bag the newspapers all the time….but keep it up and it will turn into another fight and Mark will close the thread yadda yadda…you don`t care about the subject you just want to win the fight.
Kim, all I have to offer is my support. Even though I’m sure that you understand this polemic, that you can position it and deal with it rationally, it’s still got to be affecting you that you’ve been targeted in this manner. If it’s any consolation, you’re obviously doing something right, or you wouldn’t have raised so much bile from Szego, Blair, et al.
I enjoyed Julie Szego’s piece and I’ve also enjoyed Kim’s posts. I think that the FGM aspect has kind of overwhelmed the discussion. Ayaan Hirsi Ali offers her mutilation as symptomatic of a particular cultural mindset that is infused and nurtured by the religion she rejects - for a host of reasons. I agree with those who point to cultural practice as the startpoint but there’s seemingly little doubt that Islam does enable the perpetuation of FGM in parts of Africa and Somalia - AHA’s homeland - is apparently the worst national offender.
The notion that “western feminists” should be obliged to end the practice single-handedly does seem a tad bizarre but it’s surely equally bizarre to insist that AHA should somehow shut up about it because it might piss the Islamic patriarchy off and make them resistant to gradual change. It’s her story and she’s extraordinarily brave to tell it.
Rob is right that AHA has been taken up by the Right in a way that creates discomfort. It’s a shame that she went to the American Enterprise Institute rather than the Brookings Institution but there you go.
The thing I find most disturbing about all of this is that she is in daily fear of her life because she publicly rejects the faith she was born into. She shouldn’t be.
There wasn’t any bile in Szego’s article. She simply noted there had been a storm in the ozblogos, and used it as a lead into a very interesting article. She didn’t have a go at either Kim or Tim, merely used the event as a cue.
Exactly, Geoff.
Geoff Honnor, AHA is in big strife with the “Religion of Peace” not only for dipping out of it, but for publicising the way ROP adherents in the Netherlands are treating their womenfolk.
Certainly, Leo, but it would be helpful if you’d looked at the previous threads where this has been discussed (a commenter at Tim Blair’s even found a reference from the US state department which referred to the practice of FGM among Ethiopian Jews).
Firstly, Egypt is not a wholly Muslim country - there’s a substantial minority of Coptic Christians. And Ethiopia is not a Muslim but a Christian country.
Rather than go back over all the links that were quoted - I’d refer you to this UK NGO.
http://www.forwarduk.org.uk/key-issues/fgm
For instance, FGM is widely practiced by Christians in Ghana and animists in Burkina Faso
Please note that the incidence of FGM is related to ethnic/tribal background, not to religion. In particular countries, people with the same religion practice FGM as people who don’t practice it.
As a white American Catholic, I’d be speaking out about it. My point is that the most effective way of working against it is to support those who are best placed to convince people who do it. It just stands to reason that African women are going to be more likely to persuade other Africans than people from Australia who want to say “you have to leave your faith, it’s pre-modern and barbaric” or whatever (which is basically Hirsi Ali’s position). I’m certainly not afraid of giving offence, I’m just concerned that we don’t turn the issue into a political/religious football.
Rob, I think you’d agree that there are a lot of value judgements in the Szego piece.
Adam, thanks.
Geoff:
But who’s said she should shut up? I’m all in favour of her right to freedom of speech. I just want to protect the right of those who disagree with her not to be vilified, insulted and denigrated.
I totally agree.
Yes, that does seem to be true Rob. As if there wasn’t enough conflation of positions already in this ‘debate’! At worst, Szego is recycling bile from TB. There doesn’t seem to be much of her own in there with it.
Value judgements, though, I can see.
Well if you call 10% a “substantial minority…”
“Islam is the state religion in Egypt, and approximately 90% of the population is Muslim.”
According to the latest CIA World Factbook, Islam is the most widely practiced religion , with 45-50% of Ethiopians adhering to Islam
Speaking of Ethiopia, as another wiki source notes - “…FGC is widely practiced out in the open by African Muslims…”
Ok, but my point was - what would you do about it as a white Australian? Somehow I doubt that you would adopt your own recommended approach of not turning it into a “political issue…” correct me if I’m wrong.
It should also be noted that this hasn’t just been happening half a world away in Africa or Asia…its been happening here right under our very noses. And where not talking about FGM…there have also been cases of “honor killings” right here and a whole lot of other western countries. A most recent case occurred with the strangeling to death of a Kurdish girl in the UK. Would we need to adopt your “non politicial approach” in this situation too?
Last time I checked, Hirsi Ali was an African women, no? Or is she an Australian arm chair observer who lives in an ivory tower?
Which brings us back to my rape victim analogy. Do you honestly think that you have a better insight on an issue and how to tackle it than someone who has actually lived through it?
But you’ve already turned it into one.
And people who would usually support your “non political approach” will only selectively apply it …and certainly not to say Christians.
On the other hand:
So depends whether you believe the Ethiopian or US governments!
The pont remains - it’s not a practice associated with a particular religion but one associated with particular ethnic groups.
Leo, murder and rape and FGM are all specifically illegal in Australia. And so they should be.
And my point, which I don’t want to endlessly repeat, is that many NGOs have had much success in Africa in persuading people to give up the practice. Please follow the links in the previous post. They’re likely to have more success than Hirsi Ali making a speech in Australia. That’s just fact.
And just on the great respect Tim Blair’s commenters have for freedom of speech:
http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/woman_edited/#257816
The irony is that I completely agree with, and always have agreed with, this:
Yes, it is, and yes I do.
I just don’t think using it as a way of characterising a whole religion or as some sort of argument to have with “the left” in any way treats FGM with the moral seriousness it deserves.
And I’m not going to resile from that one inch, no matter how many of Mr Blair’s fine commenters call me a “twat” or call for my clitoris to be cut off.
Whichever source is more accurate, there is no denying that Islam plays a very influential and integral role in Ethiopia. This take us back to this statement “FGC is widely practiced out in the open by African Muslims…â€?
And there is also no denying that - “The countries that practice FGC the most are: Somalia, followed by Egypt, Sudan…Mali…” are all overwhelmingly and predominately muslim nations.
But FGC is much more likely to occur among muslims…and worse
honor killings are mostly committed among muslims. I think religion might play a part in addition to culture…
But in an effort to convince members of ethnic/religious minority from refraining from these illegal activities, would you adopt the same “non political approach?”
Somehow I really doubt it.
Which brings me back to that same question - do you claim to have a better insight on the issue than Hirsi Ali? Why are you being evasive on that question?
You can think what you like, but you should realise that correlation does not imply causation.
Ghana, for instance, has a population of 66% Christians, and FGM is widespread.
50% of the people in Burkina Faso are Christian or Animist and around 90% of girls are subjected to FGM.
I’ve already said everything I want to say about Hirsi Ali’s experience. Much of what you bring up has already been covered ad infinitum in the two previous threads on this topic. My concern in this one is how the debate is structured, and that’s what I want to talk about here.
Again, you can doubt what you like, but it’s a bit pointless talking to you if you won’t look at the links that have been provided in the previous post to demonstrate what sort of progress is being made in eliminating FGM in Africa by NGOs and community groups. You may even like to make a donation, if your main interest in fact lies in protecting women and girls and not in loudly denouncing things.
for we westerners it is possible to work against fgm in a practical way, by contributing funds to workers who fight against it where it’s happening & attempt to educate practitioners & potential victims of the health hazards & physical & emotional scarring it causes, & also loudly to denounce it as a primitive, barbaric practice that must be eradicated. there is no dichotomy. you do not have to choose one or the other. substitute baby bashing for fgm & see if anyone agrees that loud denunciation is unacceptable
hirsi ali is in danger less for speaking out against the appalling practice of fgm, practised upon her in an african/islamic cultural context, than for her apostasy. her real crime in the eyes of those who threaten her with death is rejection of islam. anyone who cannot see that is wilfully blind to the facts
Kim you are not the issue here…if you don`t like Tim Blair stop checking what his “people’are saying about you.Why do you care?For the love of God Kim as A white American Catholic…turn the other cheek
I know you’ve been the subject of attack Kim, but to be entirely fair to the commenter, in this instance he was addressing his penis.
Leo,
FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION/CUTTING
A Statistical Exploration 2005
Unicef
http://www.unicef.org/publications/files/FGM-C_final_10_October.pdf
There have been some posters to these threads who don’t seem to have any understanding of the enormity of the issue for a start - it is estimated that 120 million women have undergone FGM to some degree - adding in the males in these communities/countries you are looking at 240 million people currently, coming off a base of possibly a few thousand years of practice!
I have previously linked to African NGO’s who are working on the ground in these countries - where they are making good progress in relation to “whole village/community” education and substitution of “coming of age” celebrations for girls, and also finding other work for professional circumcisers - who are in the main - women. These are practical programs which deserve support from everyone who considers FGM a terrible and backward tradition, that must go the same way as foot-binding etc.
Nearly all these countries have also passed laws against FGM and some are supporting education programs. So there is no doubt that the tide is turning against FGM even in the countries where it originated.
Some posters also don’t seem to have any on-going awareness of the incredible difficulties that most African countries have been facing for decades – either famine, shocking wars, droughts, corruption, HIV-Aids, malaria, extreme poverty, no infrastructure, absurdly high rates of child morbidity, a hundred other disgusting diseases, child soldiering - you name it - Africa’s got it.
Good points KK.
In case anyone thinks there’s been some exaggeration about the sort of comment made on Tim Blair’s threads, read this one:
http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/do_not_denounce_them/#255263
This is odd, surely if the NGOs are having a positive influence then this is a good thing. If Ms Ali can bring about any positive changes then this is also a good thing. Whether one has more success than another is irrelevant? The sum of successes is what counts.
Unless you think that she is a force for the worse with respect to stopping clitoridectomy?
Come on Kim.
This is just imbedded appeasement. I don’t blame you that much. But you’ve got to get in touch with the real reason you are labouring this bullshit appeasement line.
I take your point, Rob. : ) (sad attempt at a smiley face there, but I meant well). And good point, KK. After all, that’s why she called her book Infidel.
Someone has been calling Kim a “twat”? (Isn’t twat a slang term for the, gasp, vagina - that’s a bit sexist, isn’t it?). Frankly, I have no problem in saying that there are lots of dicks commenting on blogs.
I think we’ve all been round blogs enough to know that certain folk find their penises getting longer and longer with every utterance of the words “you’re a lefty” or whatever.
Ho hum. Next. Who can take seriously middle-aged men who hide behind silly names and have such a need to fit in with the tribe.
I need to make a correction; Ms Ali was on the Spirit of Things, not The Religion Report.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2007/1942687.htm
Alas, the podcast or whatever they call it isn’t up yet.
Kim
You state that ‘now the debate has moved over to the MSM!’ As if YOU were the zeitgeist. Talk about chutzpah. Kim, it was YOU reacting to the MSM in the first place. It was the nature of your reaction by focusing on Pamela Bone that began your entirely insuportable, ideologically incoherent series of cyber-rants.
The whole “debate” has, however, been extremely revealing on a whole host of other issues that have flown under the radar in the wider public’s understanding of the modern-day Left.
But thank you for broadcasting the reality of the pomo multiculti “Left.”
Pavlov’s Cat
I would say that many more of “us” need to reiterate, until at least one of “you” has the first clue about Islam and the cultural world that produced it - in the sixth to eighth centuries - and that reproduce it in the 21st century.
Better start researching, you clearly have a lot to get through, luvvie.
Darlene
Way to go, girlfriend! What a great argument. Let’s focus on the REALLY important political issues, like you know, the etymology of ‘twat.’
At least Kim has a twat to be called, unlike that whingeing, far-right neocon Tim Blair-sockpuppet Ayaan Hirsi Ali, eh!?