Two of the most protracted stoushes we’ve had at this blog for some time resulted from my two posts on Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The rhetorical ramifications of this “debate” (if a lot of shouting and calling for “loud denunciations” can be characterised accurately that way) rumble on, with a serve at me in Saturday’s Age from Julie Szego. The article isn’t online, at least not yet. [Update: Via Tim Sterne in comments, here it is.] Fortunately I’m saved the dubious pleasure of having to reply to Szego by the excellent job Helen has done in a post at Cast Iron Balcony. Go read.
Helen underlines the way the issue of FGM has been harnessed for essentially political purposes, something I was critical of in my two posts:
Feminists have known about FGM (as well as many of the other atrocities taking place in “traditional� societies) for many years, because other feminists have written about it, as well as other dreadful lefty organisations. The “conservatives� have paid scant attention to it until now, when it’s been discovered as a handy wedge. This is a truly disgusting attempt to use genuine suffering to try and score off your perceived enemies, and professional journalists should surely be alert to the faux “feminism� espoused by some people who really have no shame at all. Excuse me but I have to go and have a shower with steel wool now.
I would remark that Szego seems to show a very dubious grasp of how blogs work. At least, that’s a charitable interpretation of the reasons why she might have chosen to pull one quote from me out of context from the middle of a debate, when my position and response to criticisms was set out clearly after much of the initial sound and fury had subsided. It’s also somewhat trivialising to refer to the whole discussion as just a “little blogosphere spat”, but then trivialising complex positions is the name of this game. I’m also a bit suspicious that Szego only quotes from the bit that Tim Blair used in his post. I wonder whether she actually went to the trouble of reading what I wrote, or whether she prefers not to have her preconceptions disturbed.
And over at Surfdom, Gianna looks at the confused logic of the columnists whose ruminations on Hirsi Ali and TEH SECULAR LEFT are actually online – Janet Albrechtsen and Miranda Devine. For some unknown technical reason, the post doesn’t work properly at the moment in Firefox, but you can read it in IE.
Why do Janet Albrechtsen and Miranda Devine hate women so much? And why do they loathe Western culture so much, while projecting this loathing onto progressive Western women?
Each of these conservative commentators wrote a piece last week cynically using Hiyaan Hirsi Ali as a tool to attack progressive women, while under the pretext of championing the rights of Muslim women around the world.
Their argument is so convoluted it baffles me.
Both women frequently accuse Western progressives/feminists of “loathing Western culture� and yet if you read their words, they are the ones who loathe our culture. They talk of “wanton women� and shudder at the idea of Paris Hilton’s existence. They claim our culture needs to change, to be more conservative, in order to please not only our patriarchy, but also patriarchal Muslim society. They hate the fact that women here are liberated–sexually or otherwise–and yet they brag about the West’s famous freedoms.
They sound very conflicted.
Update: tigtog writes a meta post on this debate.
Further update: Mark has entered the debate at On Line Opinion.
Hi Kim. Szego’s article is online here.
Thanks Tim – I was unable to find it. Next time I’m able I’ll update my post with a link.
Gianna’s observations on Albrechtsen / Devine remind me of similar convolutions on the part of Dinesh D’Souza (entertainingly described by Katha Pollitt).
I certainly agree that the performance of Mr Blair et al was disgusting but I think there was more to it than a simple desire to score a point. It seems to me that the Australian right, or a section there of, is becoming increasingly obsessed with symbolism.
The trend has been developing for a while, but the picking up and subsequent failure of liberal interventionist ideas has really cemented symbolism, in this case the demand for symbolic denunciations in the place of practical action, as part of the political culture of the right.
Thanks, Tim.
Good on you Kim. I can’t wait for the inevitable metaphorical gang-rape by Timmy’s trogs.
I was going mention D’Souza as well after reading Gianna as well. Oh, if only we had less freedom then the terrorists would leave us alone.
Dear Kim
This sort of puke is why I stopped buying the Age ( apart from Sat and the green guide edition) This is the rag that inflicted Tony fucking Parkinson on us for YEARS! Hey thank fuck we have the net now.
As for anyone quoting Tim chickenhawk Blair seriously…they probably take wingnut welfare queens like Mark Steyn seriously too.
You gotta laugh.
One other thing about this ‘leftist elite’ strawman the frothing far right are beating up on is that their votes don’t count. Last election about a million innner city votes went down the toilet while the National Socialists parked their well padded butts on 11 green leather couch seats in the house. These lunar right foamers are just common bullies.
All the best – love from professor rat
You can’t put it more plainly than this. Szego is saying that Ali’s book requires a response at the level of gut solidarity, not rationality. The nature of the political position you hold it unimportant, the only critical thing is that you take one.
Nailed it Chris.
ali makes sense to those who want to think simple thoughts. The above is the most reductive way to imagine Islam. Islam is reconfigured (‘backward’) according to a certain strain in the values system of “Western liberal democracy”. It is easy to produce an opposite list for “[capitalist] Western liberal democracy” based on sexism, apathy and total seduction.
Ali is described as a “brave, outspoken, slightly simplistic Enlightenment fundamentalist” and I think the ’slightly simplistic’ is a bloody understatement. Only fools believe that human history pivots around the enlightenment.
Foucault’s comments on the iranian revolution regarding the “spiritual materialism” (or post-kantian enthusiasm) of islamic fundamentalists are just as apt for fundamentalist “[capitalist] Western liberal democrats”. His comments have also been radically misunderstood by ’slightly simplistic’ critics.
Which is the ultimate irony, since she’s being held up as the incarnation of “Enlightenment reason”.
I put the words “female genital mutilation” and “feminism” into Google and this is what I found:
[Link]
I am in the midst of reading Infidel and am finding it a challenging and interesting read. Ayaan Hirsi Ali certainly gives thanks to certain Dutch feminists in it. The other night on The Religion Report, the presenter made a point of saying that at a recent forum in Sydney some woman had suggested that FGM was “beautiful”. I suspect few people suffer from such a bad case of cultural relativism. Frankly, I am soooooooooooooo bored of the debates about the left/right etc. While wankers from the West try to prove how progressive or how not progressive others are, women continue to suffer.
Edit by AW: Link fixed.
Sorry, link doesn’t work, but you get the idea.
Frankly, I thought the article in The Age was a good indication of how the blogosphere is beginning to diminish the quality of the mainstream media.
I thought the article in The Age was a good indication of how the blogosphere is beginning to diminish the quality of the mainstream media.
Sheesh. That sounds a bit OTT Darlene. Emphasis on *sounds* – the meaning is unclear as it stands. Care to expand?
Tee hee, Helen. I probably was being over-the-top. Any excuse to put a photo of my little pussy cat, Jess, up (she’s the avatar).
I am just wondering when blogs becoming something that people quote in newspaper articles. Does that constitute research? What about looking at scholarly journals etc
Szego condemns herself:
1. Isn’t the prime responsibility of a opinion shaper to ask and to attempt to answer the most pressing questions? And there is nothing more pressing than the question about how an undoubted threat to civil society is best to be countered.
2. What relevance can how a debate has been conducted in the past have to how it ought to be conducted by a responsible professional opinion-shaper?
Shape up Szego, you’re a grown up person. Your boss should be judging you by grown-up standards.
Memo to the Editor of the Age: when are you going to judge Szego by recognisable standards of professionalism?
The latest Blair thread basically gives up the pretence that this “denunciation” is about FGM, as his commenters seize the opportunity to call me a “twat” and bag “lefties”. Etc.
http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/woman_edited/
I thought Szego’s article was spot on.
I challenge a lefty to put their views on why Islam is not oppressive to women in a short, simple sentence. The rules are:
no words over three syllables
no adjectives unless absolutely necessary
no quoting long-dead philosophers
Here’s the righty view, in accordance with the rules:
Islamic men cut off part of the vaginas of Islamic women, which is barbaric.
Now you go.
What a stupid assessment. FGM is as rotten a form of pedophelia as any; and most people, left or right, would condemn it. Considering it a wedge because rightists confront Kim with her seeming lack of support for Ali’s position is dumb. It’s some of the left’s lack of will to uphold Ali’s desire to fervently expose this terrible practice which has stirred this pot. And, much as I respect you Kim and your otherwise considered social position on issues, I am surprised how much support the left is giving you on this, and how much fodder they are prepared to give the right by being so supportive. I think you’re creating your own wedge, actually.
Perpetrators, whatever their religious or social background should be either educated and persuaded out of the practice, or, if non-compliant, prosecuted wherever possible. However, in a way, Kim has done us a favour by reminding us how onerous the knife-wielders are, for which she shoud be congratulated. But there is no doubt that it should be considered a disgusting, demeaning and harmful practice which violates young girls, and it should be shouted from the rooftops if a particular religion uses it as a ‘cultural’ symbol.
But don’t accuse any sane person of ignoring it or using it as a wedge, right or left.
I cant believe you’ve bought this up again Kim
In fairness, that commentator might only be calling you a nun’s wimple, as Browning thought the word meant. On reflection, though, I rather doubt it.
Except that ONE single religion doesn’t use it as a cultural symbol.
FGM is a cultural NOT religious practice. It is in fact similar to the way certain pagan rituals have been incorporated into christian religious practices in some areas.
I first became aware of FGM back in the 1980s. The victim was from a CHRISTIAN family of ME background and it was also justified on erroneous ‘religious grounds’.
Facelift, I hardly think that’s fair. Have you read what I’ve previously written on this? To save you the trouble I’ll paste in the relevant bits:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/06/04/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-the-fgm-debate/
On the same day the Editor judges Catherine Deveny and Tracee Hutchinson, I hope. The Age is an Augean stable of journalism and in the absence of the river Alpeus to re-route through it to clean it out it may take the Yarra to do the job.
Max, you don’t think you’d want to respond if you were bagged in a major metropolitan newspaper?
FaceLift says:
FaceLift, how often do how many of us need to reiterate (most recently Kim herself again and LearnTheDifferenceBetweenCULTUREandRELIGION, above) that FGM is NOT an Islam-specific practice or anything like one, and is most certainly not a ‘cultural symbol’ of it.
Is it that you don’t read these posts and comments, which are usually plentifully referenced, or is it just that you don’t want to believe them or the evidence they cite?
Bismarck says
I rather doubt it too, Bismarck. Most of Bl**r’s slavering wingnut hordes wouldn’t recognise Browning if they fell over him.
Like Kiala, I thought Szego’s article was pretty good, and well nuanced.
I don’t think she was really having a go at you, Kim. I think her point is about the weirdness of the debate around Ali. There’s certainly been a degree of appropriation of Ali by the right. But equally, there’s been a degree of self-conscious distancing by the left.
Interesting dynamics.
My actual point is that FGM shouldn’t be considered a ‘wedge’ issue when there is clearly a fair amount of indignation and support over Kim’s original angst-filled post, which she has subsequently attempted to either justify or clarify, and which I accept s her defined position.
I, in fact, said ‘if a particular religion uses it as a ‘cultural’ symbol’, which, if you read it correctly and in context, suggests it is erronneous to claim religious foundations for the practice when it is clearly cultural, LearnTheDifferenceBetweenCULTUREandRELIGION, and PC, neither did I specify any particluar religion, so your criticism is unfounded. However there are some religions which would consider their cult/ural basics an inclusive, or even conclusive part of their religion, so where and how do you create a divide between the two?
I think the expression you’re reaching for, Mme. Pavlova, is “flying monkey”, and the plural noun is “timmitude”.
What a ridiculous stoush this turned out to be. Three fecking farcical threads. And all because Kimberella had the disgustingly depraved temerity to suggest the Islamophobes’ favourite [don't forget telegenic!] professional martyr is somewhat lacking in intellectual depth and practical solutions.
*Gasps. Swoons. Conspicuously denounces Kim for her outrageous support for FGM. Enjoys reassuring glow of moral superiority. Rinse. Repeat.*
BFD. Bring back the rape and abortion threads, I say.
But the point, FaceLift, is that in articles like those by Szego (and I don’t see much nuance there, Rob), Devine and Albrechtsen’s, it very clearly is.
I do agree with that, though!
Hmmm. I see that speaking “truth to power” is becomes limited when the “power” has a tendency to cut the speaker’s heads off and post the video on YouTube.
Reality is, Kim, that you are cowardly scum.
Fuck off.
Thanks for that expression of support for Enlightenment reason and demonstration that feminism is an Australian core value, murph.
You could at least have tried to think up a different talking point this time:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/06/04/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-the-fgm-debate/#comment-374189
Furthermore, it is people like you who are the reason this sort of thing is becoming increasingly prevalent.
Banaz Mahmod Aga is dead because it is more detrimental to one’s police career to be falsely accused of racial or cultural insensitivity, than it is to fail to prevent a murder that blind fred could see coming.
Oh, I’ll expand on my points, although I can’t remember what they were.
Re: Blogs. They are usually not as well-researched as a scholarly article. They are often based on emotion. If the author of The Age article wanted to find academic stuff related to the sorts of issues Ayaan Hirsi Ali raises, she could of. However, I should point out that blogs certainly have value (I was interested to read in the latest edition of Bust an article about Mormon feminist bloggers – it’d be interesting if you could touch on it Kim, if you’ve read it).
And I was making reference to The Religion Report because the author of Infidel was on it the other night. Well, her speech to the Sydney Writers Festival was. Nobody in the audience seemed to agree with a positive view of FGM.
Remember, for some this is just another case of “convenient feminism”.
However, Ms Ali is a terrific and very articulate woman, and she certainly acknowledges the work of Muslim feminists, although she calls herself an atheist these days.
Incidentally, I saw the Dalia Lama (not sure if I know how to spell it), and the very gushing hostess, Kerry Armstrong, didn’t ask him about his attitude to things like homosexuality. Nevertheless, it was quite interesting afternoon. There were lots of young alternative types there. I hope they will embrace the spirit of inter-faith dialogue that was an important part of the event and go see people talk about Catholicism or Anglicanism or Bahaism or whatever.
Sorry, a very digressive rant on my part.
I don’t think Szego was looking for research on the topic, though, Darlene.
A little deliberate provocation going on, which I’ll ignore and just point to a couple of links about honour killing:
http://www.amews.org/review/reviewarticles/mojabfinal.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html
Oh dear Kim I think you owe everybody an apology. Your refusal to wallow in the mire of vapid symbolism is directly causing deaths on the other side of the world right this instant.
Puzzling, though, Chris, because I have never suggested that FGM is defensible on cultural or religious grounds. But I take your broader point
When I said provocation, I meant in relation to honour killing.
You’re right, Kim. She was looking for emotive stuff.
PS – The issue of Bust relates how Mormon women utilise the blogosphere to express their discontents with the church and to debate issues like abortion. It’s worth reading, and it’s certainly interesting to read women claim the mantle feminist even though lots of people would presume that they’re not because of their faith.
What’s Bust, Darlene?
Bust Magazine:
http://www.bust.com/index.php
“For women with something to get off their chests”.
It’s a feminist pop culture mag, which is available from Borders, Mag Nation etc
Not as meaty as Bitch, but fun and intelligent just the same.
Thanks, will check it out.
Groovy website, Darlene.
What we need in Australia is more feminist magazine launch parties!
I don’t understand what you mean by “politicisng.”
If a victim of rape came out to openly talk about the horror of rape (and did a world wide public speaking tour) would you say that they were going the wrong way about it? As an arm chair observer who is never been in the victims shoes, would you claim to have a better insight and approach than they do?
If genitile mutilitation was openly conducted in say the United States and practiced by white catholics and protestents would you adopt your “non-political” approach there too?
And I’m guessing that what you mean by “political approach”, is not to speak out too openly about it lest you stoke provocation among people. But isn’t this what feminists, animals rights activists, enviormentalists, political dissidents and many other groups have been doing all along – i.e. adopting a “political approach” (speaking out, protesting and provoking others) to draw attention to plight and suffering? How are muslim dissidents any different?
The irony is that you too have “politicised” this issue for your convienance – after all criticising certain cultures and the subsequent fear of “provoking them” doesn’t really fit into your PC world view…whilst speaking out on much more trendier issues and provoking other groups of people is perfectly cool and chique.
glad you acknowledged it.
Since we are on the topic of “silencing,” I would to point out the irony of how certain groups of people always complain about some evil conspiracry to silence and stifle their free speech – whether its by a government or some evil joooowesh zionist boogey man.
Yet its that very same group of people who decry and a vilify a woman whose only crime is to merely exercise that same right that they claim are being denied to them. A woman who comes out to speak against A REAL evil and barbaric practice.
For the people who bitch about their views being “stifled” and “censored,” and then simoltenously mock Ali, I would like to ask – how many body guards & police officers do you have escorting you 24/7?
And I’m not refering to this blog (I’ve taken what Kim has said in her defence into account) I’m just making a general observation on the types of reactions Ali has stirred up.
Once again the approach that you claim Ali takes, is one clearly found among many western “intellectuals” – and many among them are Ali’s most strident critics.
Can you back this one up?
Here an article from Wikipedia -
“The countries that practice FGC the most are: Somalia, followed by Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, and Mali…Whilst FGC is widely practiced out in the open by African Muslims, it is practiced in secrecy in some parts of the Middle East. The practice occurs particularly in northern Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, and Iraq, and there is also circumstantial evidence to suggest it is present in Syria, western Iran and southern Turkey.[13] ”
In case anyone wasn’t aware – Somalia, Egypt, Sudan and Ethipioa are all mulsim countries.
Once again, can you back this one up – especially with the Jews? I’ve never heard of this being practiced among Jews and have a feeling that your getting a little desperate in a bid to prove a typical PC point – that everything is relative.
How on earth can anyone conclude that someone like Kim is:
It goes to show that blogs have increasingly become a forum which some people are using to make ad hominem attacks on others, whilst all the while refusing to engage with the substance of the topic under discussion.
Cheers…
“I don’t think Szego was looking for research on the topic, though, Darlene.”
Bit puzzled by your and Darlene’s posts. This was an experiential account of an encounter with a remarkable individual. It was honest, straightforward, acknowledged Ali’s occasional arrogance, the many dimensions of the debate, not star-struck. This was not an academic paper — it described an experience and the sometimes conflicting emotions that went with it.
I mean, we’ve all been there.
Kim you bag the newspapers all the time….but keep it up and it will turn into another fight and Mark will close the thread yadda yadda…you don`t care about the subject you just want to win the fight.
Kim, all I have to offer is my support. Even though I’m sure that you understand this polemic, that you can position it and deal with it rationally, it’s still got to be affecting you that you’ve been targeted in this manner. If it’s any consolation, you’re obviously doing something right, or you wouldn’t have raised so much bile from Szego, Blair, et al.
I enjoyed Julie Szego’s piece and I’ve also enjoyed Kim’s posts. I think that the FGM aspect has kind of overwhelmed the discussion. Ayaan Hirsi Ali offers her mutilation as symptomatic of a particular cultural mindset that is infused and nurtured by the religion she rejects – for a host of reasons. I agree with those who point to cultural practice as the startpoint but there’s seemingly little doubt that Islam does enable the perpetuation of FGM in parts of Africa and Somalia – AHA’s homeland – is apparently the worst national offender.
The notion that “western feminists” should be obliged to end the practice single-handedly does seem a tad bizarre but it’s surely equally bizarre to insist that AHA should somehow shut up about it because it might piss the Islamic patriarchy off and make them resistant to gradual change. It’s her story and she’s extraordinarily brave to tell it.
Rob is right that AHA has been taken up by the Right in a way that creates discomfort. It’s a shame that she went to the American Enterprise Institute rather than the Brookings Institution but there you go.
The thing I find most disturbing about all of this is that she is in daily fear of her life because she publicly rejects the faith she was born into. She shouldn’t be.
There wasn’t any bile in Szego’s article. She simply noted there had been a storm in the ozblogos, and used it as a lead into a very interesting article. She didn’t have a go at either Kim or Tim, merely used the event as a cue.
Exactly, Geoff.
Geoff Honnor, AHA is in big strife with the “Religion of Peace” not only for dipping out of it, but for publicising the way ROP adherents in the Netherlands are treating their womenfolk.
Certainly, Leo, but it would be helpful if you’d looked at the previous threads where this has been discussed (a commenter at Tim Blair’s even found a reference from the US state department which referred to the practice of FGM among Ethiopian Jews).
Firstly, Egypt is not a wholly Muslim country – there’s a substantial minority of Coptic Christians. And Ethiopia is not a Muslim but a Christian country.
Rather than go back over all the links that were quoted – I’d refer you to this UK NGO.
http://www.forwarduk.org.uk/key-issues/fgm
For instance, FGM is widely practiced by Christians in Ghana and animists in Burkina Faso
Please note that the incidence of FGM is related to ethnic/tribal background, not to religion. In particular countries, people with the same religion practice FGM as people who don’t practice it.
As a white American Catholic, I’d be speaking out about it. My point is that the most effective way of working against it is to support those who are best placed to convince people who do it. It just stands to reason that African women are going to be more likely to persuade other Africans than people from Australia who want to say “you have to leave your faith, it’s pre-modern and barbaric” or whatever (which is basically Hirsi Ali’s position). I’m certainly not afraid of giving offence, I’m just concerned that we don’t turn the issue into a political/religious football.
Rob, I think you’d agree that there are a lot of value judgements in the Szego piece.
Adam, thanks.
Geoff:
But who’s said she should shut up? I’m all in favour of her right to freedom of speech. I just want to protect the right of those who disagree with her not to be vilified, insulted and denigrated.
I totally agree.
Yes, that does seem to be true Rob. As if there wasn’t enough conflation of positions already in this ‘debate’! At worst, Szego is recycling bile from TB. There doesn’t seem to be much of her own in there with it.
Value judgements, though, I can see.
Well if you call 10% a “substantial minority…”
“Islam is the state religion in Egypt, and approximately 90% of the population is Muslim.”
According to the latest CIA World Factbook, Islam is the most widely practiced religion , with 45-50% of Ethiopians adhering to Islam
Speaking of Ethiopia, as another wiki source notes – “…FGC is widely practiced out in the open by African Muslims…”
Ok, but my point was – what would you do about it as a white Australian? Somehow I doubt that you would adopt your own recommended approach of not turning it into a “political issue…” correct me if I’m wrong.
It should also be noted that this hasn’t just been happening half a world away in Africa or Asia…its been happening here right under our very noses. And where not talking about FGM…there have also been cases of “honor killings” right here and a whole lot of other western countries. A most recent case occurred with the strangeling to death of a Kurdish girl in the UK. Would we need to adopt your “non politicial approach” in this situation too?
Last time I checked, Hirsi Ali was an African women, no? Or is she an Australian arm chair observer who lives in an ivory tower?
Which brings us back to my rape victim analogy. Do you honestly think that you have a better insight on an issue and how to tackle it than someone who has actually lived through it?
But you’ve already turned it into one.
And people who would usually support your “non political approach” will only selectively apply it …and certainly not to say Christians.
On the other hand:
So depends whether you believe the Ethiopian or US governments!
The pont remains – it’s not a practice associated with a particular religion but one associated with particular ethnic groups.
Leo, murder and rape and FGM are all specifically illegal in Australia. And so they should be.
And my point, which I don’t want to endlessly repeat, is that many NGOs have had much success in Africa in persuading people to give up the practice. Please follow the links in the previous post. They’re likely to have more success than Hirsi Ali making a speech in Australia. That’s just fact.
And just on the great respect Tim Blair’s commenters have for freedom of speech:
http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/woman_edited/#257816
The irony is that I completely agree with, and always have agreed with, this:
Yes, it is, and yes I do.
I just don’t think using it as a way of characterising a whole religion or as some sort of argument to have with “the left” in any way treats FGM with the moral seriousness it deserves.
And I’m not going to resile from that one inch, no matter how many of Mr Blair’s fine commenters call me a “twat” or call for my clitoris to be cut off.
Whichever source is more accurate, there is no denying that Islam plays a very influential and integral role in Ethiopia. This take us back to this statement “FGC is widely practiced out in the open by African Muslims…â€?
And there is also no denying that – “The countries that practice FGC the most are: Somalia, followed by Egypt, Sudan…Mali…” are all overwhelmingly and predominately muslim nations.
But FGC is much more likely to occur among muslims…and worse
honor killings are mostly committed among muslims. I think religion might play a part in addition to culture…
But in an effort to convince members of ethnic/religious minority from refraining from these illegal activities, would you adopt the same “non political approach?”
Somehow I really doubt it.
Which brings me back to that same question – do you claim to have a better insight on the issue than Hirsi Ali? Why are you being evasive on that question?
You can think what you like, but you should realise that correlation does not imply causation.
Ghana, for instance, has a population of 66% Christians, and FGM is widespread.
50% of the people in Burkina Faso are Christian or Animist and around 90% of girls are subjected to FGM.
I’ve already said everything I want to say about Hirsi Ali’s experience. Much of what you bring up has already been covered ad infinitum in the two previous threads on this topic. My concern in this one is how the debate is structured, and that’s what I want to talk about here.
Again, you can doubt what you like, but it’s a bit pointless talking to you if you won’t look at the links that have been provided in the previous post to demonstrate what sort of progress is being made in eliminating FGM in Africa by NGOs and community groups. You may even like to make a donation, if your main interest in fact lies in protecting women and girls and not in loudly denouncing things.
for we westerners it is possible to work against fgm in a practical way, by contributing funds to workers who fight against it where it’s happening & attempt to educate practitioners & potential victims of the health hazards & physical & emotional scarring it causes, & also loudly to denounce it as a primitive, barbaric practice that must be eradicated. there is no dichotomy. you do not have to choose one or the other. substitute baby bashing for fgm & see if anyone agrees that loud denunciation is unacceptable
hirsi ali is in danger less for speaking out against the appalling practice of fgm, practised upon her in an african/islamic cultural context, than for her apostasy. her real crime in the eyes of those who threaten her with death is rejection of islam. anyone who cannot see that is wilfully blind to the facts
Kim you are not the issue here…if you don`t like Tim Blair stop checking what his “people’are saying about you.Why do you care?For the love of God Kim as A white American Catholic…turn the other cheek
I know you’ve been the subject of attack Kim, but to be entirely fair to the commenter, in this instance he was addressing his penis.
Leo,
FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION/CUTTING
A Statistical Exploration 2005
Unicef
http://www.unicef.org/publications/files/FGM-C_final_10_October.pdf
There have been some posters to these threads who don’t seem to have any understanding of the enormity of the issue for a start – it is estimated that 120 million women have undergone FGM to some degree – adding in the males in these communities/countries you are looking at 240 million people currently, coming off a base of possibly a few thousand years of practice!
I have previously linked to African NGO’s who are working on the ground in these countries – where they are making good progress in relation to “whole village/community” education and substitution of “coming of age” celebrations for girls, and also finding other work for professional circumcisers – who are in the main – women. These are practical programs which deserve support from everyone who considers FGM a terrible and backward tradition, that must go the same way as foot-binding etc.
Nearly all these countries have also passed laws against FGM and some are supporting education programs. So there is no doubt that the tide is turning against FGM even in the countries where it originated.
Some posters also don’t seem to have any on-going awareness of the incredible difficulties that most African countries have been facing for decades – either famine, shocking wars, droughts, corruption, HIV-Aids, malaria, extreme poverty, no infrastructure, absurdly high rates of child morbidity, a hundred other disgusting diseases, child soldiering – you name it – Africa’s got it.
Good points KK.
In case anyone thinks there’s been some exaggeration about the sort of comment made on Tim Blair’s threads, read this one:
http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/do_not_denounce_them/#255263
This is odd, surely if the NGOs are having a positive influence then this is a good thing. If Ms Ali can bring about any positive changes then this is also a good thing. Whether one has more success than another is irrelevant? The sum of successes is what counts.
Unless you think that she is a force for the worse with respect to stopping clitoridectomy?
Come on Kim.
This is just imbedded appeasement. I don’t blame you that much. But you’ve got to get in touch with the real reason you are labouring this bullshit appeasement line.
I take your point, Rob. : ) (sad attempt at a smiley face there, but I meant well). And good point, KK. After all, that’s why she called her book Infidel.
Someone has been calling Kim a “twat”? (Isn’t twat a slang term for the, gasp, vagina – that’s a bit sexist, isn’t it?). Frankly, I have no problem in saying that there are lots of dicks commenting on blogs.
I think we’ve all been round blogs enough to know that certain folk find their penises getting longer and longer with every utterance of the words “you’re a lefty” or whatever.
Ho hum. Next. Who can take seriously middle-aged men who hide behind silly names and have such a need to fit in with the tribe.
I need to make a correction; Ms Ali was on the Spirit of Things, not The Religion Report.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2007/1942687.htm
Alas, the podcast or whatever they call it isn’t up yet.
Kim
You state that ‘now the debate has moved over to the MSM!’ As if YOU were the zeitgeist. Talk about chutzpah. Kim, it was YOU reacting to the MSM in the first place. It was the nature of your reaction by focusing on Pamela Bone that began your entirely insuportable, ideologically incoherent series of cyber-rants.
The whole “debate” has, however, been extremely revealing on a whole host of other issues that have flown under the radar in the wider public’s understanding of the modern-day Left.
But thank you for broadcasting the reality of the pomo multiculti “Left.”
Pavlov’s Cat
I would say that many more of “us” need to reiterate, until at least one of “you” has the first clue about Islam and the cultural world that produced it – in the sixth to eighth centuries – and that reproduce it in the 21st century.
Better start researching, you clearly have a lot to get through, luvvie.
Darlene
Way to go, girlfriend! What a great argument. Let’s focus on the REALLY important political issues, like you know, the etymology of ‘twat.’
At least Kim has a twat to be called, unlike that whingeing, far-right neocon Tim Blair-sockpuppet Ayaan Hirsi Ali, eh!?
Frank, Kim’s previously said that she believes Hirsi Ali’s work is positive with respect to drawing attention to the issue. However, as I understand her argument, I think she’s saying that making it appear that FGM is only practiced by Muslims, or worse, is somehow essential to Islam, is likely to be counterproductive.
You certainly have and this sums up your position –
clearly you believe that you have a better insight into a situaton than someone who has actually gone through it (i.e. Hirsi Ali – whom you claim is in the sname league as a western/ australian arm chair observer)
That’s a false dichotomy, Leo.
You could have a position on, say, the appropriate strategy to deter heroin addiction without having been a heroin addict yourself. Had you been, you might be in a better position to understand the consequences of addiction, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you have a monopoly on understanding how to deter others from trying it.
Feel better, John. That’s good. Good thing you gave me a wink, you naughty boy.
Sexist language is all part of the big rainbow of patriarchal oppression blah blah blah.
You have obviously neglected to read my previous comments in admiration of Ms Ali. Indeed, I am currently reading her very interesting and challenging book.
She’s no sockpuppet; she’s her own woman.
Your right kk, conspicuous denunciation and practical action are not mutually exclusive actions. My problem is with people who show exactly no interest in practical action and judge the worth of others (to the point of calling for the genitals of the unworthy to be mutilated in a few sordid instances) based on the volume of their denunciations.
Tim Blair is an example of such a person. A search of his current blog and his previous two blogs indicates that the great humanitarian has posted about female genital mutilation a grand total of three times. On each occasion he was only concern with attacking “the left�. As far as I can tell Tim has never shown any interest in practical means of combating FGM, which just goes to prove my point about the right being obsessed with symbolism.
Of course if Tim Blair actually does feel strongly about FGM minus the point-scoring opportunity he is free to compose a post about it bereft of any snarky refrences to TEH LEFT, but I somehow doubt his commenters will find that terribly interesting.
This, I hope, will be my sole contribution to this debate. As Kim has often said on these pages, the personal is the political. Hirsi Ali has suffered obscenely from actions ostensibly conducted under Islamic custom – FGM, an arranged marriage, condemnation for apostasy, the appalling murder of her artistic collaborator and having to live under armed guard in fear of reprisals from her erstwhile co-religionists. It may be that none of these things are condoned by mainstream Muslims, but the fact remains of her lived experience and the religious context of that experience. It would be astonishing if that experience did not colour her political stance.
Similarly, I would consider a fiercely anti-Catholic sentiment to be completely understandable in a survivor of priestly child abuse, or anti-Mormon sentiment in an escapee from a coerced polygamous underage marriage. The fact that abuses of that nature may occur in other religions is surely the weakest excuse one might expect from Catholic or Mormon apologists. If one of these victims went on to say that “mainstream” foundational ideas such as the institution of a celibate priesthood or a monomaniacal approach to Abrahamic patriarchal structures contibuted to the abuse I would be (and, indeed, am) inclined to give those arguments serious credence.
I do not understand Hirsi Ali to be saying that FGM is an exclusively Muslim practice, unless someone can provide a link. She is saying that her experience of it, and that of many others, and much else besides, occurred in an Islamic context and that, from her perspective (and what other perspective should she have?) she has been oppressed under the auspices of that religion. The response from Muslims should be that her suffering constitutes criminality of the highest order and has no place in Islam. There has been too little of this and too much demonisation of her. Umm Yasmin on another thread has described her as mentally ill and castigates her for her lack of knowledge of aspects of Islamic doctrine. If a runaway survivor of an abusive Catholic priest, surrounded by murder and threats of murder, was traduced by the faithful as mentally ill and castigated for being unable to recite the Nicene Creed, I would describe that conduct as inhumane and disgusting.
Agree with Chris.
Again I think we have to go back to the point in the post about blogging being a fluid medium – comments and sometimes posts are composed quickly and in reaction to a continuing conversation. I read “loud denunciations” as referring to what Chris criticises – those who would seek to condemn FGM but without making any suggestions as to how it can be combatted other than condemnation.
In fact, if you look back on this thread and all the others, not a single person has ever claimed that FGM should be condoned for “cultural” or “religious” reasons, yet that’s what Kim and “the left” stand accused of – not least by the commenters on Tim Blair’s thread. They constantly reiterate demands that she condemn FGM absolutely and everywhere, but in fact she has.
As a former pinko, I can’t for the life of me work out why the left is continually forgiving and making excuses for Islam; fundamentalist Christianity was a favourite target for derision when I was a “progressive” for it’s obvious atavism and denial of human rights, yet we have a faith/culture that makes the likes of Jerry Falwell seem like Jerry Garcia, and it’s beyond criticism. Is it because of Isalm’s loathing for western capitalism? Because most of its adherents are not members of the hated Anglo Saxon hegemons? Or are you scared of the buggers?
It’s got me rooted, but logic and reason’s never had much of a run in “liberal” circles- I’m just pleased I grew out of such idiocy.
BTW- why are there so many american leftists in Australia? just about every activist organisation that pops up has some strident Californian harpy lecturing we yokels on our waste/cruelty/racism/ignorance etc. Surely there’s a lot more hillbillies to hector back home?
Well said Chrs.
On the other hand, Chris, I’m starting to find it quite fascinating that the teeming timmitude (thanks to Fyodor for that very beautiful collective noun) has suddenly found its inner goddess and begun to rave about the sanctity of the female genitalia.
It’s a huge improvement on their former attitude to what Zoe calls ladyparts, and I don’t think we should discourage them.
I’ll repeat what I just said – no one in this thread or the others on the topic has argued that FGM should be condoned on “cultural” or “religious” grounds.
If in fact you look at what Kim, Jo and others have written in the past, there’s plenty of material about the horrendous position many women are in in Islamic societies. But that appears to have completely escaped the notice of their assailants.
Which is why I wonder about this:
Reason is precisely what Hirsi Ali defends. Yet there’s hardly been a less reasonable debate than the one started by her antipodean disciples.
Evidence of that lies in the fact that the positions that they claim that “the left” held aren’t actually held by anyone. Which is why, as the post implies, it’s significant that Szego, Devine and Albrechtsen fail to actually name any one who holds these alleged positions.
All of us, I think, would agree that FGM is an evil and repulsive practice, and that nothing can justify it. We differ about how best to combat it. But there is no one arguing the case that the culture warriors claim they’re also loudly denouncing.
Reiterate WHAT, luvvieboy? Do tell. I’m magogically agog at the prospect of a decent stoush on Islamic theology and its cultural origins. You’ve evidently completed your research into the necessary equivalence of religious and cultural practice.
Perhaps you could kick things off for us by explaining why African christians practise FGM and European christians don’t? If that’s too complex for you to wrap your undoubtedly staggering erudition around, please explain why Iranian muslims don’t practise FGM and Somali muslims do? If you’re more historically minded, you could teach the depraved pomo multiculti lefties lurking in this little coven why FGM originated ONLY with Islam, and could not possibly have existed as a cultural practice SEPARATE from the religion you think practises it exclusively?
Same religion…different culture…different approaches to FGM…what gives?
Could it be…
*GASP*
…that you haven’t a fucking clue on the subject, luvvieboy?
I think you’ll find we’re quite partial to ladyparts, particularly ones that haven’t been sliced up with broken glass and stiched back up with a filthy needle. Frankly if people want to voluntarily carry out such barbarity it’s none of my business if there’s no co-ercion, but such practices have no place in a secular western democracy, and those who carry out this and other “cultural traditions” shold be banged up and/or deported to a place where such depravity is acceptable.
Villifying a victim of mutilation because she signed on with the wrong think-tank is cowardly, deplicitous and gives comfort to the purpetrators and promoters of such practices; hiding behind the dodgy claim that FGM isn’t restriced to Islam is even more vapid; the majority of practitioners are member of this cult.
I’m quite sure such deference wouldn’t be shown to members of a belief system which you despise.
Who’s vilifying Hirsi Ali? I’m not. I admire her courage, but disagree with the conclusions she reaches.
Kim’s said that she had considerable respect for her and for her experience, but disagreed with her political views.
Have we come to the pass where any dissent or criticism is taken for vilification? What does that do to the argument for “Western reason”?
Really? This has already been quoted on this and a previous thread. It’s a factual report based on data. Supporters of reasoned Western discourse would presumably take that into account.
FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION/CUTTING
A Statistical Exploration 2005
Unicef
http://www.unicef.org/publications/files/FGM-C_final_10_October.pdf
Well said Mark and Chris. If the subject of this thread has taught us anything, apart from the horrors of FGM, it is the shameless hypocrisy of many conservatives, not to mention their continued inability or unwillingness to read for meaning.
In reality, their argument was never about FGM, Hirsi Ali or even Islam. It’s just another tired and increasingly predictable excuse to bash ‘the left’, otherwise known as anyone who disagrees with them.
Pls excuse the spelling- I have a hangover that’d kill a wino.
I’ll repeat what I just said – no one in this thread or the others on the topic has argued that FGM should be condoned on “culturalâ€? or “religiousâ€? grounds.
If in fact you look at what Kim, Jo and others have written in the past, there’s plenty of material about the horrendous position many women are in in Islamic societies. But that appears to have completely escaped the notice of their assailants.
It’s certainly escaped me- I’m yet to see an item anywhere by anyone left of centre even vaguely critical of Islam and its adherents; I know the left got fully behind the Palestinian cause in the ’70s (along with a lot of other nastyness), but surely after 30 years any objective person would realise that Islam is a belief system completely at odds with secular democracy and the two can never succesfully co-exist, particularly when one has a doctine of domination, and a belief that such hegemony is the will of a higher being.
For the life of me I can’t work out why we’re not on the same page on this issue. Cultural relativism belongs in the same historial dustbin as esperanto and the wobblies.
Try that for a start, though it’s only one post (with a link to another). I’ve got to go supervise an exam so I haven’t time to search for more.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/04/28/women-in-iraq-ii/
Slightly OT but does anyone else recall that the only fatality attributable to religous extremist terrorism in Melbourne, within living memory, was the murder of a security guard outside an abortion clinic by a CHRISTIAN?
Yes, Habib, that was sort of my point (though it doesn’t really explain why the various names for them are habitually hurled as a term of vile abuse, does it). The next step is being taken as awareness grows that ladyparts are in fact usually attached to a human being of some sort. This is a new idea for many.
But I think those who are patiently repeating that NOBODY HERE HAS EVER CONDONED MUCH LESS EXPRESSED APPROVAL OF FGM should give up now. It’s not what they want to hear, and they’re not hearing it. Most of the pro-hatin’ comments on this thread are the equivalents of commenters clapping their hands over their ears and shouting I CAN’T HEAR YOU, LA LA LA LA LA LA. If they actually listened to what was being said then they’d have to stop spraying righteous indignation everywhere, and what fun is that?
We deserve it, of course. It’s such a simple, logical equation: if you refuse to join in loud denunciation of Islam, you must therefore approve of female genital mutilation. How could anyone possibly not understand?
Or muffling the sound with thighs, presumably
I think you’re referring to questions of another order, Habib. Being on the same page, for you at least, seems to mean adhering to an either/or formula that is not tenable when it enters the world. Whether, in principle, we can decide that a particular religion and secular democracy are incompatible is totally beside the point of this discussion. And cultural relativism, in the sense that you mean it, does not exist!
if you refuse to join in loud denunciation of Islam…and why? There’s never a shortage of loud denunciation of christianity, and it’s a far more benign (but equally daffy) faith.
Admittedly FGM isn’t restricted to followers of the Prophet (PBUH) but the majority of practitioners and victims are of that persuasion. While even the most loopy tub-thumping Baptist would regard the practice as abhorrent, it is not only condoned but promoted by senior Islamic clergy.
If you can’t see there’s something fundamentally wrong with Islam you’re not looking. “Religion Of Peace” bollocks.
Here’s that so-called Religion of Peace again…
I’m pretty tired of the ‘its all about us’ response by LP posters when challenged over issues. Reponses range from ‘Its Tim Blair’s fault’ to its ‘all about left bashing’. I think that some of the posters here are selfishly fixated, the issue after all is about women in poor countries mutilated against their will.
As a second point, Darlene, must you bring your own baggage about men to every topic you comment about?
Mark:
Both of those posts refer to the oppression of women in Iraq. Clever use of the passive voice allows Kim to avoid saying who is doing the oppressing, leading the reader to square all responsiblity onto the Coalition.
Hardly a shining example of a critique of radical Islam.
Like I said, SimonC, I have to dash out the door in a moment, but those posts, and others here, have held the COW to account for allowing religious fanatics to re-impose their anti-feminist agenda in Iraq. It’s fairly clear, logically, that the responsibility for that agenda lies with those who practice it. Anyway, there was a much more comprehensive one with a lot of links recently. I’ll have a very quick look.
Habib, there have been plenty of left-of-centre criticisms of “Islam and its adherents” – here and elsewhere. Perhaps they don’t fit your preferred LOUD DENUNCIATION format, and they slipped under your radar.
Just to give you a taste, I for example am pretty left-wing (at least in that I believe in equality of opportunity, despise the Neocon remake-the-world agenda, believe our natural resources are under threat from our actions etc etc).
I think many adherents of Islam practice it in ways that are utterly abhorrent, have a violent and apparently incurable hatred for anything they can’t understand or control, treat their women folk despicably (not just FGM by a long stretch), deliberately poison the minds of their children against their neighbors, are grossly hypocritical about matters of morality, and wear funny hats.
OTOH, I know quite a few Muslims. None of them have suffered from any of the above, except the funny hats and perhaps a little of the sexism (let’s not be throwing too many stones in the particular glass house though – there are plenty of ways to mistreat women, and some of us ‘western secular democrats’ have a bunch of them down pat). These folks are tolerant of my ‘western decadence’, eager to share their culture and learn about mine, practice what they preach, and have even been known to handle *gasp* laughing at themselves.
The point of avoiding LOUD DENUNCIATIONS is that they are not always appropriate, and they’re often indescriminate.
And to recap a point made patiently and repeatedly by Kim, Mark and many others,
criticismsLOUD DENUNCIATIONS of FGM, if only made as part of a generalised attack on Islam, are unlikely to achieve anything more than a shitfight and the shutting down of the very lines of communication which could see progressive attitudes take root in the Islamic world.Are there any Rightists capable of engaging in a nuanced debate?
Here’s how an intelligent secular Rightist might argue out the issue of FGM and Islam:
I disagree with the sentiments that I have represented above. But at least I can understand something about the thinking processes of the intelligent Rightist.
Where is the Rightist intelligent enough to reciprocate?
Or are you in fact incapable of refraining from RWDB brain explosions?
Here’s some more recent posts:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/05/17/falsis-nominibus-imperium/
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/03/10/a-bone-to-pick-2/
Inter alia, condemning “the shift of Iraq towards a theocracy and its horrendous consequences for women”.
It’s a point I’ve also been making for a long time.
Let me just observe, though, that there’s no neutral position from which to criticise, so the fact that the left (which is anti-war) also wants to point to the failure of promises for women’s rights and a secular democracy to be fulfilled in Iraq is neither surprising nor does it let those who are actually killing, maiming and oppressing women in the name of religion off the hook.
It’s just more complex than a simple “loud denunciation”
Really gotta run now.
Is there really? I think a little comparison of the number of media items hostile to Islam compared to those hostile to Christianity, especially in the mass circulation press, would be very, very interesting indeed.
As for Christianity being far more benign, I wonder what all those victims of child sex abuse by the Church might say to that..?
Of course, culture is an important aspect of all this.
The tub thumpers of Christianity in the US have been socialised into a democratic society.
Reading Ali’s book illustrates that tribalism has a strong influence in a country like the one she’s from.
At the DL show, the Lama used the word “mischievous” to describe suicide bombers. He said something to the effect that a religion shouldn’t be judged by its “mischievous” adherents. Fair enough, I don’t judge Christianity by tub thumpers, however, it was a bit of a soft description (yes, the DL can’t start antagonising other faiths). He’s often shaky English could of been to blame, but…
I was also interested in how readily people seem to accept the contentious and difficult concept of karma, but that’s another debate.
Mark on 14 June 2007 at 12:41 pm
That is post-modernist evasiveness. One can be entirely neutral as between Left or Right and still notice the correlation between cultural identities and political iniquities. This is an ethnological, not ideological, question.
mark says:
I am gratified to see that mark sees both the systemic violation of womens rights and “the failure of secular democracy to be fulfilled in Iraq is neither surprising”. But I find it surprising that a multicultural Leftist does not find this surprising., since the Cultural Left is pro-democracy and in favour of ethnic identity politics. Would he mind telling us why he finds these deformities unsurprising and whether he thought so pre-invasion?
And please, dont blame it all on Bush. Illiberal and sectarian democracy is a consistent pattern all throughout SW Asia that pre-dates 2000. Bush is not some universal voodoo.
The US’s promotion of democracy in Iraq gave barbaric tribesmen the freedom to wage sectarian conflict and religious fanatics the opportunity to oppress women. Combination of democracy-promotion and multicultural nation-building.
THese sectarian and sexist positions are quite possibly popular ones within respective communities, or at least among the politically engaged elite. They are certainly consistent with the ethnic identity of Iraqis.
Doesnt that tell you something about how diverse cultures respond to freedom? And what may happen to a free culture if it willy-nilly extends the nervous hand of welcome to all diverse cultures?
Hint: they may use the freedom the general community gives them to oppress thir local community. That is what happened in Holland and now Londonistan. It was on the way to happening here until a grass-roots reaction from populists – Howard’s “all of us”, Hanson, Cronulla – stopped it dead in its tracks. Dodging that bullet was not pretty, but it ws effective in promulgating Poppers paradox of freedom: dont tolerate the intolerant.
So it is entirely predictable that the FGM debate comes up when barbaric people arrive in a civilised country and are encouraged to retain their sacred traditions. Hey presto! Their women get put on the carving block.
Only a multicultural ideologue could fail to draw the obvious conclusion about giving traditional ethnics free reign in a liberal civic. Or put up a smoke screen by dragging out the tired old cliches of “wedge politics” and “dog whistles”.
Hehe, nice to see the Far Right discarding all that nonsense about ‘women’s rights’ (you know, the thing they’ve fought against tooth and nail for so long) and getting down to the serious business of whipping up racist pogroms in the streets.
Should we tolerate you then Jack?
Katz, I hesitate to step up to the plate on this one, and don’t presume to possess any special degree of intelligence. But here we go. I consider myself to be on the Right politically and will confess to holding a certain amount of antipathy to Islam, albeit an antipathy that extends in varying levels of intensity to most religions. I do not consider the “Leftist” position on Islam to be monolithic – there are views held by some on the Left that are very similar to my own and some with which I disagree profoundly (for example those that view Islam as an ideal means by which to destabilise the capitalist system). Neither is the Right position monolithic. I do not see any place for coercion, nor do I see Islam as uniquely baleful.
My own views on the present Hirsi Ali stoush are above. I think Hirsi Ali is justified in her views, as are those who say that her complaints are not representative of everyday Islam, while I do not believe that that detracts from the moral force of her complaints. I consider those who continue to attack her to be in the same moral category as those who traduce the victims of child-abusing Christian clergy.
I would not want to live in a society that proscribed any form of religious observance, provided that it does not interfere with the rights of any other member of society. However, and here I think you and I have agreed in the past, nor do I see any place for coercive means to proscribe the criticism that can be levelled at any form of religious observance.
Chav on 14 June 2007 at 1:37 pm
Cronulla was neither a racist nor a pogrom. Middle easterners are the same race as Europeans. It was a street protest that turned ugly after being high-jacked by extremists. The protest was a measure of desperation taken by local community being monstered by gang-bangers and bereft of police support.
The “it” that I suggested “was on the way to happening here” was in fact the violation of “women’s rights” and escalation of sectarian conflict that occurs when barbaric cultures exploit civic freedom for identity political ends, usually with the connivance of Cultural Leftists.
This is exactly the opposite of Chav’s point. but I dont fancy getting this accross as it would be like explaining chess to a dog.
“If I see futher than others its only because I am surrounded by intellectual midgets.”
Greg Cochran
FDB on 14 June 2007 at 1:49 pm
dont tolerate the intolerant.
I dont recall leading any female acquaintances of mine to the chopping block recently. Or encouraging age-old Italo-Teutono or Caledono-Anglo rivalries. So my liberal conscience is clear.
I certainly am in favour of selective immigration that allows fit, smart and nice individuals into this country without discrimination on the basis of race or religion. I just want citizenship policy to encourage them to embrace modern civilization, and not wallow in barbarism.
Bismarck, it appears that you and I are in perfect accord on this issue.
I believe that you would not disagree that there are Rightists who argue that Islam is uniquely baleful in its influence and that some form of coercion of practitioners of Islam is called for.
How would you argue against those positions?
Well jack, I guess you know how the posters who have the patience to attempt to engage you in rational debate feel.
“Middle easterners are the same race as Europeans.” That would explain why all those blonde freckled folk got bashed in the Cronulla riots, and not those unfortunates who just happened to be on the dusky side. It was racist hysteria, plain and simple.
Don’t ever change, Aunty Jack. As if you could.
Corollary: culture worrier Jackerstrocchi’s myopia is the result of his intellectual shortcomings.
Thanks, Jack, it all makes sense now.
Well Jack your immigration policy might have some effect in the long term but all the talk of citizenship policy we have been hearing lately is just another example of right-wing symbolism. People will intergrate at their own pace, dosn’t matter what Canberra says or tells them to sign or what “cultural leftists” say.
I know this part is off topic, but I was around Sutherland the day before Cronulla and your description of it as “a street protest that turned ugly” is just not right. The SMS that advertised the thing called it “leb and wog bashing day”. You have to be really dumb to think that a bashing day is going to be anything but ugly.
Actually, I think you’ll find that’s not the common perception in terms of race in this country, particularly in the minds of the bashers, as this text message widely circulated before the pogrom demonstates…
Neither does, I think you’ll agree, the bashing of two student from Bangladesh.
Really? I didn’t realise Australian Nazi groups had hundreds of members!
Hmmm…you’ve got a bit of work to do then, I hear George Bush is coming to Sydney in September…
Pavlov’s Cat on 14 June 2007 at 12:20 pm
Congratulations. We now know that Larva-Prodders pay lip service to womens lib and are prepared to issue ritualistic denunciations of badness along with the best of them.
Doubtless GW Bush would also be saying that he has never wanted or condoned all the latent mayhem that his martial policies unleashed in Iraq. But Larva-Prodders, quite rightly laugh at such socio-political naivety and are scathing about his irresponsibility.
He doesnt get off the hook that easily for the failure of his martial policies. And Larva Prodders should not be able to wiggle out criticism of their disastrous cultural polices.
The core fallacy shared by both Martial Right and Cultural Left is that individual motives trump social consequences. This is infantilism escalated to political philosophy (“I didnt mean to do it, its not my fault”)
Social science exists to trace the unintended social consequences of purposeful individual action. If social interaction was straightforward as intention = action we would have no need for all the egg-heads.
So Larva-Prodder’s attempts to distance themselves from the predictable consequences of their cultural philosophy, as applied to the cultural association and political representation of ethnics in our society, should be treated with derision.
Katz, I would say that fanaticism in any form has baleful consequences, and that the history of Europe (and everywhere else) is repleat with examples. The fact that there are currently strains of Islam with dangerous tendencies does not warrant proscription of the religion, but does warrant vigilance, a proper application of the criminal law and an emphasis on the basic principles expected to be adopted as a condition of residence or incidence of citizenship (all of which apply generically and not specifically to any group).
I’m just checking in quickly from work, so can’t respond to all the comments. But discussions of Jack’s views on Cronulla and immigration are arguably off topic.
Remember also, the comments policy says these things are a worry:
[Come on, you just knew it was coming...]
Shorter Jack Strocchi: Larva-Prodders should be treated with derision for condemning FGM. Or something. Plus OT blah about GWB for some reason that’s really important but not apparent.
You’re bowling melons today, Aunty. LIFT.
Whiny tim on 14 June 2007 at 2:14 pm
THe Human Genome Project classifies Middle Easterners and Europeans as in the same race. Maybe Whiny Tim knows something that Francis Collins doesn’t?
The issue was the gangstas sociological culture, not their biological nature. Thats why no Indians, Negroes or Asians were involved.
The major point of the protest was to denounce and discourage the bad behaviour of gangs of middle eastern youths that had been terrorising local residents for years. Culminating in major episodes of sexual harassment, vandalising churches and bashing life-guards. All given a free pass by police hamstrung by politically correct cultural sensitivity policies handed down by ALP ethnic branch stackers.
And Larva-Prodders, it seems.
No doubt there’s some grand Strocchinarrative which makes this relevant to Ayaan Hirsi Ali and the way the debate over her views has played out?
And what race to “wogs” and “lebs” belong to, Aunty?
Hopeless as usual.
Oh my apologies, I forgot to include the second part of that text…
Ah yes, the hamstrung police (just ask Senior Sergeant Christopher James Hurley) …
Tsk, it’s those totally subservient-to-authority NSW Police again. They just can’t get away from their long proud history of political correct kid-gloving of wogs, gooks, and boongs.
Habib on 14 June 2007 at 11:25 am
As a former pinko, I can’t for the life of me work out why the left is continually forgiving and making excuses for Islam; fundamentalist Christianity was a favourite target for derision when I was a “progressive� for it’s obvious atavism and denial of human rights, yet we have a faith/culture that makes the likes of Jerry Falwell seem like Jerry Garcia, and it’s beyond criticism. Is it because of Isalm’s loathing for western capitalism?
YES!
I fail to see how anyone can argue given the axioms of Islam with its 8th Century theories in economics,science and morality how a decent society can follow and reality bears this out. You rarely see people emigrating from western to Muslim countries whereas the opposite happens magnitudes times more.
A reference to somebody currently standing trial with its snide implication as to guilt hardly gives your comment any credibility.
Don’t you think you could have waited until the jury hands down its verdict?
I give up.
Let’s all talk about Jack!
You know he wants you to.
Given all the Aboriginal deaths in custody in the last two hundred years, don’t you think more than one cop could have been charged?
Kim on 14 June 2007 at 2:43 pm
Ali’s story mostly fits like a glove into my theory: She is scathing about the way Leftist cultural polices encourage torture of women and terror amongst the populus:
“Western culture is superior to Islamic culture,” Hirsi Ali tells the audience. “Islam as a body of ideas is not compatible with human rights, it is bad for women, it is bad for the human being, it is bad for the imagination, bad for science and therefore bad for progress.”
She tells Review, for example, that the terrorist attacks on the London Underground in July 2005 did not surprise her. “It shocked me, but it did not surprise me. If one country has appeased and accommodated Islam and taken multiculturalism to its most absurd end, it is the UK.”
I would change one aspect of her argument: the problem is not Islam’s liturgical theology, it is Southern Eurasian/African tribal socio-biology. The major problem with cross-cultural associations in both North and South is not religious, it is regional: the age-old conflict between civilized towns and barbarised villages. (“idiociy of rural life”)
But the link b/w the abuse and honor killings of Southern Eurasians & Africans in the North and Cultural Leftism is obvious. If we allow barbaric people into the country, and encourage them to maintain their old ways, the result will be the mutilation and degradation of women and sectarian conflict.
Exactly what has happened in Holland and Londonistan. But a bullet we have so far dodged in this country, since Howard clamped down on the Wets and turned immigration criteria away from ethnic identity and towards economic efficiency. And since Hansonism drove a stake throught the heart of the Cultural Left.
Australia has to rely on foaming-at-the-mouth red-necks and died-in-the-wool old-fogeys to provide cultural space for an atheist Somalian feminist being villanised by liberal-leftists. Tom Wolfe wouldnt try to get away with such an absurd scenario.
I think you’ll find there’s only four identifiable races, with ethnic differentiation within those groups.
Jack is correct- Arabs are racially caucasian, and thus the same race as the Cronulla yahoos.
The disquiet of locals was cultural, not racial; no-one would’ve given a shit if every Lebanese in greater Bankstown came down to the area if they behaved themselves and acted like civilized human beings rather than a cross between Watts gangbangers and recruits for the El Aqsa Martyrs brigade.
For once the immigration department got it right; I used to think Whitlam was our worst ever PM, but Fraser’s pipped him on many counts.
Whiny tim on 14 June 2007 at 2:45 pm
Hopeless as usual.
THe Caucasian race.
Thick as two planks, as usual.
I’ll accept there’s been some mildly critical items posted about Islam’s treatment of women, mostly being swung around to criticism of the coalitions liberation of Iraq. I Also note a comment along the lines that mention of stonings etc is simplistic and rhetorical, designed to portray Islam as primitive.
Just what aspect of this theology is modern? All religions are anti-modern to some degree, but Islam has made primitivism an art form. Wherever it thrives you will find cultural and economic atrophy; by placing all events and outcomes in the will of some fictional deity, all responsibility is absolved; the concept of free will is alien, and every facet of life is dominated by dogma.
If the middle east didn’t have oil you would be hard pressed to find a paved road, an electric light or an educated individual.
Quite likely. But that is not the point. The presumption of innocence means that we should reserve our judgement in a particular case until the jury has delivered its verdict.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science
How is that not racist?
Is that like saying, for instance, that Iran would be a democracy now if MI6 and the CIA hadn’t conspired to overthrow the democratically elected leader in the 1950s and replace him with the Shah?
Shorter Jack the Stroker: Pay attention to ME ME ME!!!
Just what is racist about stating the obvious fact that a primitive, tribal and nomadic society would remain just that if not good fortune had bestowed their tribal lands with a valuable commodity, which enabled said society to gain the benefits of modern civilisation without embracing modernity? I think you’ll find that ethnic/family groups outside the ruling clique in Arabic countries still live very much in the manner described.
Dave- the item linked confirms my point- Islamic science and technology stalled in the fifteen century, and hasn’t budged since. Frankly I think it’s beyond even a reformation/enlightenment. I’d think it’s better described as a cult rather than a religion per se.
And this description would achieve what exactly?
Oh that’s right, LOUD DENUNCIATIONS are ends in themselves for you pumped-up keyboard warriors.
As you were.
Update: tigtog writes a meta post on this debate.
Exactly where are the oil wells in Lebanon?
1. The Lebanese are overwhelmingly Arab.
2. If memory serves me correctly is the capital city of Lebanon.
3. Beirut is one of the oldest cities on earth and long acknowledged to be one of the most beautiful and sophisticated urban centres on earth.
So, does the word “simplistic” mean anything to you.
Missing the point, as usual. In fact, missing the point is something of an art form for you, as clearly evidenced by your repeated introduction of OT subjects. But I digress.
Let me make it simple for you, my intellectual midget: do you consider “wog” a racist term? Or were your non-racist “street protesters” simply unaware of the human genome project’s more contentious assertions?
From tigtog’s post:
http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=656
Adrian
I hope this helps.
Habib
Indeed. If you trawl back a couple of a years and see the orgasms of Palestinian-philia that embraced the arrival of Hanan Ashrawi a few years ago. ALL of those Usual Suspects are the ones hissing and scratching now. They have fallen right into the Luvvie-Left-Islamist nexus that is their Waterloo.
Katz
Yet again you avoid the issue: hint, it ain’t FGM.
I think you’ll find that the Maronites are a diverse ethnicity, with little in common with the Sunnis, Shi’ites and Druze in the southern regions, most of whom are closely related to the “Palestinians”. They were the main driving force in the advance of Lebanon, the Moslems the main driving force for its descent into the dunny. For once the French actually did some good in one of their colonys as well, instituting a system of government and education which made Lebanon a leading light in the middle east until the atavists of the south decided it need to be a theocracy.
What is your point?
Katz
Rather than being renowned as a beautiful city, Beirut is a byword for a disaster area or other similarly fucked up place. Hence such phrases as “busy as a one armed brick layer in Beirut” or “Gee this place is a mess – it looks like downtown Beirut”.
Sorry Dave, Islamic science is an oxymoron.
A quite cogent argument can be made to suggest that any preservation of classic Greek and Latin philosophy and science (upon which Western science is predicated) can be attributed to Christian Arabs still working under the Muslim occupied territories.
Try this as a starting point.
No, that is just how uninformed idiots imagine it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut
Whiny tim on 14 June 2007 at 3:59 pm
“Wog” is an ethnic slur term. Ethnicity usually comprises lineal, liturgical, legal and lingual characteristics ie nature and culture. So it could be either racist or “culturalist”.
Race is a scientific term relating to biological classification.
I hope that clears things up. Although I appreciate it must be difficult for a pin-head like you to keep epistemology and scatology seperate in the tiny space north of your neck.
Whiny tim says;
The street protesters were mostly up in arms about the social behaviour, not the biological constitution, of roaming gangsters terrorising their community.
I realise its a problem for you when the HGP does not fit neatly into your ideological barrow. Easily solved: ditch the science and save the slogans. Ignorance of the HGP is one thing that you and the street protesters have in common.
Can people please keep it on topic? There’s obviously plenty to say on the actual issue, without getting sidetracked.
One of the problems with Tig-Tog’s reasoning viz-a-viz Islam and Christianity is presupposing the two religions are more alike than different.
And this is certainly not the case. Sadly, it is wish-fulfilment fantasy to believe that Islam will have a Reformation like Christianity.
It cannot, because that is not the way that religion is constructed.
Sweet Zombie Jesus you’re obtuse Jack. Gotta admire your determination to fly in the face of reason though.
“adrian on 14 June 2007 at 3:38 pm
Shorter Jack the Stroker: Pay attention to ME ME ME!!!”
Yes, Adrian, percussionists of renown claim that “The Sound of One Hand Blogging” is indeed, in the key of Me. Goes something like this:
Tempo 4/4; Doppio Allegro
Treble Clef: tap tappity tap tap tap tappity tap tap tap……
Bass Clef: thwack thwack thwack thwack thwack thwack……
The opus is deliberataly of indeterminate length, which traditionally remains at the artistic discretion of the performing Maestro.
C’mon Anna!
On-topic is all well and good, but you’ve got to stay ahead of the grammar thread.
The point of this thread is not to discuss Jack Strocchi’s views on ethnicity and Cronulla nor to make some sort of general assessment of the relative nature of Christianity and Islam.
This is the fourth time people have been asked to stay on topic.
Please take heed.
And the Islamic astronomers and mathematicians were all Christian as well?
What revisionist garbage.
Will this help, FDB?
Wow Dave
You can use Wikipedia, you must be informed.
I was there in the 90’s – it was a bomb site.
You know anything more than what you gleaned from Google ?
Thought not.
Turd.
I can read Wikipedia too Loober!
Uh oh, looks like its the usual suspects…and they came back in 2006 to try and finish the job…
The topic is ..Kim is pissed off because the MSM “misquoted”her and bagged her, you startted the whole thing Kim and now you`re got the shits because lots of people disagree with you.Wake up to yourself Kim.To all Muslim posters you are just the lefts play thing when some thing else comes along they will drop you.
mark qotes:
Islam is a civilizng religion that has been around for a long time and covered a lot of places. For most of that time it has been a progressive force, moving backward people out of their reactionary way of life.
But in some of those places this is a big ask. Its probably made those backward people nicer to each other than they otherwise would have been (as Waugh said of Christianity apropos himself). They are sectarian and sexist almost in spite, rather than because, they are Islamic.
Unfortunately Islam is also a world-historical force multiplier that empowers back-ward tribesmen by giving them the idea that they are major actors on the stage of history. So Islamic Arabians create more problems on a global scale.
This explains why Islamics South West Asians tend to be more likely to be chucking bombs at us, rather than Vodou Sub Saharan Africans. Despite the fact that the latter have more chaotic social systems and more reason to be cross with us.
The notion that “western feminists� should be obliged to end the practice single-handedly does seem a tad bizarre but it’s surely equally bizarre to insist that AHA should somehow shut up about it because it might piss the Islamic patriarchy off and make them resistant to gradual change.
See, you’re perpetuating the smear Geoff. Kim said nothing of the kind. She said find the NGO of your choice who is actually working on it, on the ground, and support them. What’s the alternative? Shooting FGMers individually, as on Blairite proposed? Yeah Rambo, that’s going to happen. Invade their countries? Why, that’s worked marvellously well, hasn’t it.
See, sometimes things aren’t as easy.
One more thing. Szego says something like “shutting up isn’t an option”. The reason why Kim et al counsels caution is that you may, because you don’t understand the situation, make things worse. Then you are responsible for bringing further death and retribution on the people you are “trying to help”.
Chris Clarke has really nailed this, although in relation to a different stoush:
Saying that every time one discusses a bad thing, one is obliged to point out that it is a bad thing, and that bad things are bad, and that failure to point this out every single time is an offense punishable by witch hunt, firing, ostracism and the like? Fuck that noise.
Thank you Chris.
No, “race” is a social construct, not a genetic one. There is no reliable biological classification of race. Read your own source closely, Aunty. Again, you’ve botched your use of evidence.
“Wog” is a racist term, and your racist “street protesters” attacked people based solely on their skin colour, not their HGP designation. Stop kidding yourself, because you’re not fooling anyone else.
Bollocks. Some Muslim Arabs attack “us” (i.e. the West) because we meddle in their countries – to their perceived detriment – largely because of Israel and oil. It has fuck-all to do with cultural or religious differences between sub-Saharan Africans and Arabs. What a ridiculous argument.
yup – hamas & co are doing a great job in gaza now the evil jooooos have left
Loober –
Beirut was universally once known as the “Paris of the Middle East” – the Lebanese Civil War and subsequent Israeli occupation which lasted from 1975 to 1990, turned Beirut into a bomb-site. Go to the Wiki page on the Civil war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_civil_war and you can read about the complicated internal strife between political and religious factions, the PLO and Israeli occupation etc. etc. – this background also provides a background for the 2006 war between Hezbollah & Israel etc.
The 2006 fighting was doubly cruel in that large parts of Lebanon had finally returned to some sort of normalcy, and Beirut was nearly re-built after decades of war…
And I thought the last FGM thread was retarded…
Whiny tim on 14 June 2007 at 6:43 pm
It does not take long for the social constructivists to start falling out of the trees, after one or two good shakes. The scientific consensus is that genetic markers are reliable predictors of both self-identity and geographic ancestry (ie race) and will be useful in bio-medical science (as they are already in forensic science). Don’t rely on Strom Thurmond, heres Nature’s take on it:
Just because something is little and hard to see does not mean it isnt really there or that bad people just made it up to spite unfortunate others. Next you’ll be telling us that sub-atomic particles are “social constructs”.
You can choose to believe this childish po-mo garbage if you want to, and ignore the evidence of your own evidently ‘lyin eyes. But dont try it on with the scientific community as they will not be as indulgent of your half-baked nonsense as I am.
whiny tim says:
The protests were provoked by the threatening street gangsbehaviour, not biology. Local people objected to being monstered by ethnic gangs, not the presence of people with different skin colour, facial aspect or hair texture. There were no attacks on Africans or Asians who are actually of a non-Caucasian race, if the HGP is to be believed.
Some of the protesters were undoubtedly racist and a few did hi-jack the protest to engage in ethnic identity politics argy-bargy against different looking people. But then plenty of union demos used to be high-jacked by Bolsheviks promote to class warfare and communism. The wickedness of that goal did not mean that most workers did not have legitimate grievances against bosses.
whiny tim says:
Ahh, so home-grown 7/7 bombers attacked Northern European targets because the British govt, in league with the IDF?, was occupying…Leeds? Presumably based at the local football ground drilling for oil.
And the pre-2001 sectarian bombings in France, Germany, Turkey, were they all about those countries grab for oil and Israel too? Save the spluttering bluster, I am already too embarassed on your behalf.
whiny tim says:
.
Obviously, going by your obtuse and oafish response, argument by analogy stretches your limited neural resources past their safe handling weight. In future I will try to keep my communications to you as intellectual dwarf-friendly as possible.
The parallel Blair thread has also taken some strange turns, after mass confession of political sins
http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/woman_edited/#257951
…it moved on to foody chat, and then…. drum roll…..
http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/woman_edited/#258109
Some commenters can still find time to call me a “twat”, though…
I see Jack’s back.
Perhaps he could explain how the homosexual/biscuit nexus fits into his meta-analysis?
So, then I’m wondering why they didn’t turn on the ‘Bra Boys’, a mostly anglo gang I believe..?
Sorry champ, but you’re the one his pants down in public. The pre-2001 bombings may have something to do with US and European support for Israel. Or maybe its a simple case of Blowback, with AQ and co drawing handily on their 1980s era CIA/ISI training and funding.
Chickens. Home. Roost.
Maybe jack you should actually read the Nature articles you cite in support:
On topic comments only from now on, please. People have been asked often enough. Off topic comments will be deleted.
All right stop, collaborate, and listen!
C’mon, Kim, baiting the Strocchibot is waaay more fun than defending a strawcyborg from clueless monkeys.
We haven’t even got him to Strocchi-Bingo L6 yet, commonly known as the stage at which he refers to himself in the 3rd person. For you non-afficionadoes out there, that’s two levels higher than the botching-foreign-language-quotes stage.
Y’know, I really do wonder sometimes… Strocchi, patrickm, CL when he was around… the indefatigable ability to turn any topic into a ride on their own hobbyhorse in a few short sentences. It really does smack of “Interesting post! This is a really great blog you’ve got here! Come over and check out my amazing pharmaceutical iPod nano enlargement online degrees!”. Only with that dose of malevolent superiority you don’t usually get from a spambot.
His somebody finally found a way to “switch this thing to evil”?
I might have known that would get me moderated.
Actually I was continuing the OT crap anyway.
Kim good, FGM bad, Blairlings silly.
Carry on.
I’ve had my say on the Hirsi Ali debate over at On Line Opinion:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5990
Mark:
For god’s sake. It’s another article saying exactly the same thing.
I get it. The Right thinks her arguments are canon. The Left thinks they are specious.
Yet you have managed to write yet another article that doesn’t actually critique her arguments!
You attack assimilation contracts. Fair enough, I think that is a dumb idea (Although, I also think that race-targetted welfare is a bad idea too). Thats it. There are many hundreds of thousands of words written in the last couple of weeks over whether asking immigrants to sign a bit of paper is dumb?
If you are wondering why all LP threads that mention Islam end up as another boring left/right spitefest, its because you do not provide a meaningful position to debate. If you want to avoid the charge that you are playing the man (woman), then how about actually dealing with Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s arguments? Just once?
Simon, I’m interested in discussing the way the debate has been conducted in the MSM in that piece primarily.
But incidentally, one angle that could be explored is the way in which her arguments are very much shaped by Dutch political culture – where “associational” rather than “liberal” democracy prevails and therefore there’s more scope for the suggestion that different groups be treated unequally as opposed to the much stronger tradition of equality under the law associated with Anglo-Saxon and French political cultures.
Absolutely. Australia has form in race-directed welfare, so from her position the suggestion of race-directed immigration reforms may not be as reactionary as you contend.
In essence, this can become a debate on the difference between racial profiling and cultural profiling, and whether either approach is effective and/or ethical.
I’m assuming you mean welfare for Indigenous people. But I think what we can see with the backlash against “special rights” since 1996 is that the theme of “equality under the law” resonates strongly. Of course, racially based immigration policy has a long history in Australia, and it’s only been recently that the principles of liberal democracy have also been extended to those “who aspire for citizenship” as I suggested they ought to remain. In the Netherlands, of course, their form of democracy was designed to prevent religious and ethnic cleavages from destroying the state and national unity, but those religious cleavages were Catholic v. Protestant, neither of which have much salience in a now very secularised Dutch society. It would be interesting to explore these issues, I agree, but it would take a fair bit more time and research. As I said, what I wanted to discuss mainly in that OLO piece was the way in which Australian political debate is working.
Well that would be the more interesting matter at this point as far as I am concern. We have debated FGM to death, but I am still very interested in why the right thinks her arguments are canon, her critics are absolutely beyond the pale ect.
Mark points out that:
I think what I like to call the presumption of treason has become one of, perhaps the, most central feature of modern right-wing thought. I have a suspicion it goes back to the Cold War and anti-communism, but I am not sure about that.
What I do know is that thinkers of the modern right tend to reflexivley assume that anyone with whom they disagree with is some sort of traitor. It used to be all about how the elites hate the ordinary Australians, and you still here that one quite a bit, but since to war on terror started it has been more and more about western civilization, and how TEH LEFT is out to destroy it.
“…the suggestion that different groups be treated unequally, *as opposed to the much stronger tradition of equality under the law* associated with Anglo-Saxon[!!]…political culture. [!!!]”
True fer you… and monkeys just moight floy out o’ me arse!
Ectually, yer grand Sassenach tradition of, ahem, ‘equality under the law’ only got goin’ with any plausible rag o’ credibility, after me ‘n me boyos finally raised our game to th’ proper notch, fer takin’ it to the bastards’ home court. Where in the bloody hell d’ye think Mr. Gandhi and Dr. (“doctor,” if ye please!) King stole their playbooks from?
We’ll have to wait and see how well Ms. Hirsi Ali does agin’ the multicultural tentacles of Her Islamic Majesty…
As I have read every post here,but,not every link,it was pretty hard for me to accept what was being meted out to Kim. And I admire her tenacity,because it seemed like a gang attack in itself,with endless characterisation of the Left. Failing logic everywhere,as the hours pass.The Left is everywhere,always wrong,and somehow manages to exist in the past present and future in the same beings who havent stated their age to prove that to be Left,must be considered by the Right as genetic,and the Leftist disposition comes along even when one is in nappies. [No doubt cotton and washable] For they weary not ,these truth tellers even about the motivations of those all to alert to characterisation and generality in its manifest forms. The person as subject,and female genitalia mutilation,had the boys of the Right alongside the Female Journalists waiting for the Leftist rapists, the bogey analysis is like a train with its blinds pulled down to not see… its passengers as the travellers travel on… in righteous indignation that Kim will only lend her ears but not deposit them in her critics pockets.Shame on you bastards,shame,because you would not present yourself to confront authorities in the countries you are ready to condemn outright,and the fair and reasonable thing is always to encourage people,but not to make them lose more by doing so.Thus the flatulence of the critics of Kim s position can only be an award they present to themselves. I am shocked by their confidence. Finally the word wog has many connotations,but, the best one is a cough,cold or flue..caught whilst travelling and brought into this nation by said travellers.Thus dear hearts of the Right,when you travel ..if you cough and splutter like anyone else after travel, let your own miserable condition ring loudly in your bloody ears..you wog bastards.
Thanks, philip.
I don’t have a strong view on this but, to bring up a possible point of discussion, does anyone have any comments on the similarities between Ali and the seemingly compassionate anti-relativism of Louis Nowra in his new book on child abuse in Aboriginal communities?
I don’t mean to open a can of worms, I just presume some people here will be better informed than I…