Fear and loathing on the op/ed trail

Two of the most protracted stoushes we’ve had at this blog for some time resulted from my two posts on Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The rhetorical ramifications of this “debate” (if a lot of shouting and calling for “loud denunciations” can be characterised accurately that way) rumble on, with a serve at me in Saturday’s Age from Julie Szego. The article isn’t online, at least not yet. [Update: Via Tim Sterne in comments, here it is.] Fortunately I’m saved the dubious pleasure of having to reply to Szego by the excellent job Helen has done in a post at Cast Iron Balcony. Go read.

Helen underlines the way the issue of FGM has been harnessed for essentially political purposes, something I was critical of in my two posts:

Feminists have known about FGM (as well as many of the other atrocities taking place in “traditional� societies) for many years, because other feminists have written about it, as well as other dreadful lefty organisations. The “conservatives� have paid scant attention to it until now, when it’s been discovered as a handy wedge. This is a truly disgusting attempt to use genuine suffering to try and score off your perceived enemies, and professional journalists should surely be alert to the faux “feminism� espoused by some people who really have no shame at all. Excuse me but I have to go and have a shower with steel wool now.

I would remark that Szego seems to show a very dubious grasp of how blogs work. At least, that’s a charitable interpretation of the reasons why she might have chosen to pull one quote from me out of context from the middle of a debate, when my position and response to criticisms was set out clearly after much of the initial sound and fury had subsided. It’s also somewhat trivialising to refer to the whole discussion as just a “little blogosphere spat”, but then trivialising complex positions is the name of this game. I’m also a bit suspicious that Szego only quotes from the bit that Tim Blair used in his post. I wonder whether she actually went to the trouble of reading what I wrote, or whether she prefers not to have her preconceptions disturbed.

And over at Surfdom, Gianna looks at the confused logic of the columnists whose ruminations on Hirsi Ali and TEH SECULAR LEFT are actually online - Janet Albrechtsen and Miranda Devine. For some unknown technical reason, the post doesn’t work properly at the moment in Firefox, but you can read it in IE.

Why do Janet Albrechtsen and Miranda Devine hate women so much? And why do they loathe Western culture so much, while projecting this loathing onto progressive Western women?

Each of these conservative commentators wrote a piece last week cynically using Hiyaan Hirsi Ali as a tool to attack progressive women, while under the pretext of championing the rights of Muslim women around the world.

Their argument is so convoluted it baffles me.

Both women frequently accuse Western progressives/feminists of “loathing Western culture� and yet if you read their words, they are the ones who loathe our culture. They talk of “wanton women� and shudder at the idea of Paris Hilton’s existence. They claim our culture needs to change, to be more conservative, in order to please not only our patriarchy, but also patriarchal Muslim society. They hate the fact that women here are liberated–sexually or otherwise–and yet they brag about the West’s famous freedoms.

They sound very conflicted.

Update: tigtog writes a meta post on this debate.

Further update: Mark has entered the debate at On Line Opinion.

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190 Responses to “Fear and loathing on the op/ed trail”


  1. 1 Tim SterneNo Gravatar

    Hi Kim. Szego’s article is online here.

  2. 2 HelenNo Gravatar

    Thanks Tim - I was unable to find it. Next time I’m able I’ll update my post with a link.

    Gianna’s observations on Albrechtsen / Devine remind me of similar convolutions on the part of Dinesh D’Souza (entertainingly described by Katha Pollitt).

  3. 3 ChrisNo Gravatar

    “This is a truly disgusting attempt to use genuine suffering to try and score off your perceived enemies, and professional journalists should surely be alert to the faux “feminism� espoused by some people who really have no shame at all.�

    I certainly agree that the performance of Mr Blair et al was disgusting but I think there was more to it than a simple desire to score a point. It seems to me that the Australian right, or a section there of, is becoming increasingly obsessed with symbolism.

    The trend has been developing for a while, but the picking up and subsequent failure of liberal interventionist ideas has really cemented symbolism, in this case the demand for symbolic denunciations in the place of practical action, as part of the political culture of the right.

  4. 4 KimNo Gravatar

    Thanks, Tim.

  5. 5 Christine KeelerNo Gravatar

    Good on you Kim. I can’t wait for the inevitable metaphorical gang-rape by Timmy’s trogs.

  6. 6 ShaunNo Gravatar

    I was going mention D’Souza as well after reading Gianna as well. Oh, if only we had less freedom then the terrorists would leave us alone.

  7. 7 professor ratNo Gravatar

    Dear Kim
    This sort of puke is why I stopped buying the Age ( apart from Sat and the green guide edition) This is the rag that inflicted Tony fucking Parkinson on us for YEARS! Hey thank fuck we have the net now.
    As for anyone quoting Tim chickenhawk Blair seriously…they probably take wingnut welfare queens like Mark Steyn seriously too.
    You gotta laugh.
    One other thing about this ‘leftist elite’ strawman the frothing far right are beating up on is that their votes don’t count. Last election about a million innner city votes went down the toilet while the National Socialists parked their well padded butts on 11 green leather couch seats in the house. These lunar right foamers are just common bullies.
    All the best - love from professor rat

  8. 8 Fiasco da GamaNo Gravatar

    Call her message individualism, call it universalism, feminism, right, left whatever. Either way, she is our conscience calling.

    You can’t put it more plainly than this. Szego is saying that Ali’s book requires a response at the level of gut solidarity, not rationality. The nature of the political position you hold it unimportant, the only critical thing is that you take one.

    It seems to me that the Australian right, or a section there of, is becoming increasingly obsessed with symbolism.

    Nailed it Chris.

  9. 9 glenNo Gravatar

    Islam is a “backward” faith, she says, based on misogyny, violence and total submission. As such, it is fundamentally incompatible with Western liberal democracy. I instinctively wrestle with this; my mind throwing up a procession of every Muslim who blatantly contradicts this idea.

    ali makes sense to those who want to think simple thoughts. The above is the most reductive way to imagine Islam. Islam is reconfigured (’backward’) according to a certain strain in the values system of “Western liberal democracy”. It is easy to produce an opposite list for “[capitalist] Western liberal democracy” based on sexism, apathy and total seduction.

    Ali is described as a “brave, outspoken, slightly simplistic Enlightenment fundamentalist” and I think the ’slightly simplistic’ is a bloody understatement. Only fools believe that human history pivots around the enlightenment.

    Foucault’s comments on the iranian revolution regarding the “spiritual materialism” (or post-kantian enthusiasm) of islamic fundamentalists are just as apt for fundamentalist “[capitalist] Western liberal democrats”. His comments have also been radically misunderstood by ’slightly simplistic’ critics.

  10. 10 KimNo Gravatar

    Szego is saying that Ali’s book requires a response at the level of gut solidarity, not rationality

    Which is the ultimate irony, since she’s being held up as the incarnation of “Enlightenment reason”.

  11. 11 DarleneNo Gravatar

    I put the words “female genital mutilation” and “feminism” into Google and this is what I found:

    [Link]

    I am in the midst of reading Infidel and am finding it a challenging and interesting read. Ayaan Hirsi Ali certainly gives thanks to certain Dutch feminists in it. The other night on The Religion Report, the presenter made a point of saying that at a recent forum in Sydney some woman had suggested that FGM was “beautiful”. I suspect few people suffer from such a bad case of cultural relativism. Frankly, I am soooooooooooooo bored of the debates about the left/right etc. While wankers from the West try to prove how progressive or how not progressive others are, women continue to suffer.

    Edit by AW: Link fixed.

  12. 12 DarleneNo Gravatar

    Sorry, link doesn’t work, but you get the idea.

    Frankly, I thought the article in The Age was a good indication of how the blogosphere is beginning to diminish the quality of the mainstream media.

  13. 13 HelenNo Gravatar

    I thought the article in The Age was a good indication of how the blogosphere is beginning to diminish the quality of the mainstream media.

    Sheesh. That sounds a bit OTT Darlene. Emphasis on *sounds* - the meaning is unclear as it stands. Care to expand?

  14. 14 DarleneNo Gravatar

    Tee hee, Helen. I probably was being over-the-top. Any excuse to put a photo of my little pussy cat, Jess, up (she’s the avatar).

    I am just wondering when blogs becoming something that people quote in newspaper articles. Does that constitute research? What about looking at scholarly journals etc

  15. 15 KatzNo Gravatar

    Szego condemns herself:

    There’s a chorus of intellectuals insisting she is going about it the wrong way— hardening people’s minds, rather than opening them.

    Who knows if that’s true? After all, this isn’t a conversation taking place in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

    1. Isn’t the prime responsibility of a opinion shaper to ask and to attempt to answer the most pressing questions? And there is nothing more pressing than the question about how an undoubted threat to civil society is best to be countered.

    2. What relevance can how a debate has been conducted in the past have to how it ought to be conducted by a responsible professional opinion-shaper?

    Shape up Szego, you’re a grown up person. Your boss should be judging you by grown-up standards.

    Memo to the Editor of the Age: when are you going to judge Szego by recognisable standards of professionalism?

  16. 16 KimNo Gravatar

    The latest Blair thread basically gives up the pretence that this “denunciation” is about FGM, as his commenters seize the opportunity to call me a “twat” and bag “lefties”. Etc.

    http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/woman_edited/

  17. 17 KialaNo Gravatar

    I thought Szego’s article was spot on.

    I challenge a lefty to put their views on why Islam is not oppressive to women in a short, simple sentence. The rules are:

    no words over three syllables

    no adjectives unless absolutely necessary

    no quoting long-dead philosophers

    Here’s the righty view, in accordance with the rules:

    Islamic men cut off part of the vaginas of Islamic women, which is barbaric.

    Now you go.

  18. 18 FaceLiftNo Gravatar

    The “conservatives� have paid scant attention to it until now, when it’s been discovered as a handy wedge

    What a stupid assessment. FGM is as rotten a form of pedophelia as any; and most people, left or right, would condemn it. Considering it a wedge because rightists confront Kim with her seeming lack of support for Ali’s position is dumb. It’s some of the left’s lack of will to uphold Ali’s desire to fervently expose this terrible practice which has stirred this pot. And, much as I respect you Kim and your otherwise considered social position on issues, I am surprised how much support the left is giving you on this, and how much fodder they are prepared to give the right by being so supportive. I think you’re creating your own wedge, actually.

    Perpetrators, whatever their religious or social background should be either educated and persuaded out of the practice, or, if non-compliant, prosecuted wherever possible. However, in a way, Kim has done us a favour by reminding us how onerous the knife-wielders are, for which she shoud be congratulated. But there is no doubt that it should be considered a disgusting, demeaning and harmful practice which violates young girls, and it should be shouted from the rooftops if a particular religion uses it as a ‘cultural’ symbol.

    But don’t accuse any sane person of ignoring it or using it as a wedge, right or left.

  19. 19 MaxNo Gravatar

    I cant believe you’ve bought this up again Kim

  20. 20 BismarckNo Gravatar

    his commenters seize the opportunity to call me a “twatâ€? …

    In fairness, that commentator might only be calling you a nun’s wimple, as Browning thought the word meant. On reflection, though, I rather doubt it.

  21. 21 LearnTheDifferenceBetweenCULTUREandRELIGIONNo Gravatar

    Except that ONE single religion doesn’t use it as a cultural symbol.

    FGM is a cultural NOT religious practice. It is in fact similar to the way certain pagan rituals have been incorporated into christian religious practices in some areas.

    I first became aware of FGM back in the 1980s. The victim was from a CHRISTIAN family of ME background and it was also justified on erroneous ‘religious grounds’.

  22. 22 KimNo Gravatar

    Facelift, I hardly think that’s fair. Have you read what I’ve previously written on this? To save you the trouble I’ll paste in the relevant bits:

    Firstly, some seem to think I was downplaying Ali’s own experience. Perhaps I should have made it clearer that I had no intention whatsoever of minimising her pain and suffering. My choice of words in the comment that’s been singled out left something to be desired. Blog comments are often written in haste, but fortunately the medium also gives us the chance to correct misunderstandings and ambiguous or poorly chosen words.

    Secondly, her experiences do not put her beyond criticism. Those whose worldview caused her suffering in the first place, and those who would seek to silence her through threats and intimidation are acting in an evil and abhorrent fashion. But to subject her views to reasonable criticism is not the same thing. She herself vehemently argues for the values of Enlightenment reason. Fundamental to those values is the ability to criticise and to subject others’ views to reason and through argument to approach the truth. It’s in that context that I criticise the substance of her political views. To argue that any criticism of her means that one “sides� with those who against all liberal principles wish to silence her is to totally misunderstand the very same traditions of debate and argument she argues are of paramount importance to a free society.

    Thirdly, my criticism of “loud denunciations� of FGM (and I fail to understand why some commenters believe that to use an acronym is to downgrade its horror) does not mean that I don’t believe that it should be denounced by all reasonable and compassionate people. What I’m talking about is expressions of outrage which primarily have a political or religious motivation.

    What has been entirely overlooked in much of the criticism of what I have written is that I’ve consistently argued that people who are as horrified by FGM as I and many other feminists are have chosen to do something practical about the issue by giving financial support to women working in African countries who are working within their own communities to convince others that the practice is wrong and abhorrent (as I said in my original post) and should cease. Links were posted to reports of such work on the thread here at LP - you can read some reports of this work here and here. I would strongly urge those who wish to see FGM disappear as a source of horror and trauma for girls and women to give financial support to this organisation. I continue to believe, and agree with Matthew Yglesias and Samhita at Feministing, that this is the most practical and effective way of working to eliminate the scourge of FGM. I believe that Ali does useful work in highlighting the horrific realities of FGM, as I said on the original thread, but I believe that the best step that can be taken to work against it is to give support to those who are best placed to do so where it occurs, not to politicise the issue.

    Lastly, as Irfan Yusuf points out, FGM is practiced in many sub-Saharan African countries where Islam is not the majority religion, for instance in Burkina Faso where religious beliefs are overwhelmingly tribal and animist. To ignore this is disingenous, at best. FGM is also practiced by some Jews and Christians, and I don’t think that the cause of opposing its continuance is at all served by turning it into a religious or a political issue.

    http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/06/04/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-the-fgm-debate/

  23. 23 GregMNo Gravatar

    Memo to the Editor of the Age: when are you going to judge Szego by recognisable standards of professionalism?

    On the same day the Editor judges Catherine Deveny and Tracee Hutchinson, I hope. The Age is an Augean stable of journalism and in the absence of the river Alpeus to re-route through it to clean it out it may take the Yarra to do the job.

  24. 24 KimNo Gravatar

    I cant believe you’ve bought this up again Kim

    Max, you don’t think you’d want to respond if you were bagged in a major metropolitan newspaper?

  25. 25 Pavlov's CatNo Gravatar

    FaceLift says:

    if a particular religion uses it as a ‘cultural’ symbol

    FaceLift, how often do how many of us need to reiterate (most recently Kim herself again and LearnTheDifferenceBetweenCULTUREandRELIGION, above) that FGM is NOT an Islam-specific practice or anything like one, and is most certainly not a ‘cultural symbol’ of it.

    Is it that you don’t read these posts and comments, which are usually plentifully referenced, or is it just that you don’t want to believe them or the evidence they cite?

    Bismarck says

    In fairness, that commentator might only be calling you a nun’s wimple, as Browning thought the word meant. On reflection, though, I rather doubt it.

    I rather doubt it too, Bismarck. Most of Bl**r’s slavering wingnut hordes wouldn’t recognise Browning if they fell over him.

  26. 26 RobNo Gravatar

    Like Kiala, I thought Szego’s article was pretty good, and well nuanced.

    I don’t think she was really having a go at you, Kim. I think her point is about the weirdness of the debate around Ali. There’s certainly been a degree of appropriation of Ali by the right. But equally, there’s been a degree of self-conscious distancing by the left.

    Interesting dynamics.

  27. 27 FaceLiftNo Gravatar

    My actual point is that FGM shouldn’t be considered a ‘wedge’ issue when there is clearly a fair amount of indignation and support over Kim’s original angst-filled post, which she has subsequently attempted to either justify or clarify, and which I accept s her defined position.

    I, in fact, said ‘if a particular religion uses it as a ‘cultural’ symbol’, which, if you read it correctly and in context, suggests it is erronneous to claim religious foundations for the practice when it is clearly cultural, LearnTheDifferenceBetweenCULTUREandRELIGION, and PC, neither did I specify any particluar religion, so your criticism is unfounded. However there are some religions which would consider their cult/ural basics an inclusive, or even conclusive part of their religion, so where and how do you create a divide between the two?

  28. 28 Monkey is spunky and never stopsNo Gravatar

    I think the expression you’re reaching for, Mme. Pavlova, is “flying monkey”, and the plural noun is “timmitude”.

    What a ridiculous stoush this turned out to be. Three fecking farcical threads. And all because Kimberella had the disgustingly depraved temerity to suggest the Islamophobes’ favourite [don’t forget telegenic!] professional martyr is somewhat lacking in intellectual depth and practical solutions.

    *Gasps. Swoons. Conspicuously denounces Kim for her outrageous support for FGM. Enjoys reassuring glow of moral superiority. Rinse. Repeat.*

    BFD. Bring back the rape and abortion threads, I say.

  29. 29 KimNo Gravatar

    My actual point is that FGM shouldn’t be considered a ‘wedge’ issue

    But the point, FaceLift, is that in articles like those by Szego (and I don’t see much nuance there, Rob), Devine and Albrechtsen’s, it very clearly is.

  30. 30 KimNo Gravatar

    the weirdness of the debate around Ali

    I do agree with that, though!

  31. 31 murphNo Gravatar

    Hmmm. I see that speaking “truth to power” is becomes limited when the “power” has a tendency to cut the speaker’s heads off and post the video on YouTube.

    Reality is, Kim, that you are cowardly scum.

    Fuck off.

  32. 32 KimNo Gravatar

    Thanks for that expression of support for Enlightenment reason and demonstration that feminism is an Australian core value, murph.

    You could at least have tried to think up a different talking point this time:

    http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/06/04/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-the-fgm-debate/#comment-374189

  33. 33 murphNo Gravatar

    Furthermore, it is people like you who are the reason this sort of thing is becoming increasingly prevalent.

    Banaz Mahmod Aga is dead because it is more detrimental to one’s police career to be falsely accused of racial or cultural insensitivity, than it is to fail to prevent a murder that blind fred could see coming.

  34. 34 DarleneNo Gravatar

    Oh, I’ll expand on my points, although I can’t remember what they were.

    Re: Blogs. They are usually not as well-researched as a scholarly article. They are often based on emotion. If the author of The Age article wanted to find academic stuff related to the sorts of issues Ayaan Hirsi Ali raises, she could of. However, I should point out that blogs certainly have value (I was interested to read in the latest edition of Bust an article about Mormon feminist bloggers - it’d be interesting if you could touch on it Kim, if you’ve read it).

    And I was making reference to The Religion Report because the author of Infidel was on it the other night. Well, her speech to the Sydney Writers Festival was. Nobody in the audience seemed to agree with a positive view of FGM.

    Remember, for some this is just another case of “convenient feminism”.

    However, Ms Ali is a terrific and very articulate woman, and she certainly acknowledges the work of Muslim feminists, although she calls herself an atheist these days.

    Incidentally, I saw the Dalia Lama (not sure if I know how to spell it), and the very gushing hostess, Kerry Armstrong, didn’t ask him about his attitude to things like homosexuality. Nevertheless, it was quite interesting afternoon. There were lots of young alternative types there. I hope they will embrace the spirit of inter-faith dialogue that was an important part of the event and go see people talk about Catholicism or Anglicanism or Bahaism or whatever.

    Sorry, a very digressive rant on my part.

  35. 35 KimNo Gravatar

    I don’t think Szego was looking for research on the topic, though, Darlene.

  36. 36 DarleneNo Gravatar

    A little deliberate provocation going on, which I’ll ignore and just point to a couple of links about honour killing:

    http://www.amews.org/review/reviewarticles/mojabfinal.htm

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

  37. 37 ChrisNo Gravatar

    Oh dear Kim I think you owe everybody an apology. Your refusal to wallow in the mire of vapid symbolism is directly causing deaths on the other side of the world right this instant.

  38. 38 KimNo Gravatar

    Puzzling, though, Chris, because I have never suggested that FGM is defensible on cultural or religious grounds. But I take your broader point ;)

  39. 39 DarleneNo Gravatar

    When I said provocation, I meant in relation to honour killing.

    You’re right, Kim. She was looking for emotive stuff.

    PS - The issue of Bust relates how Mormon women utilise the blogosphere to express their discontents with the church and to debate issues like abortion. It’s worth reading, and it’s certainly interesting to read women claim the mantle feminist even though lots of people would presume that they’re not because of their faith.

  40. 40 KimNo Gravatar

    What’s Bust, Darlene?

  41. 41 DarleneNo Gravatar

    Bust Magazine:

    http://www.bust.com/index.php

    “For women with something to get off their chests”.

    It’s a feminist pop culture mag, which is available from Borders, Mag Nation etc

    Not as meaty as Bitch, but fun and intelligent just the same.

  42. 42 KimNo Gravatar

    Thanks, will check it out.

  43. 43 KimNo Gravatar

    Groovy website, Darlene.

    What we need in Australia is more feminist magazine launch parties!

  44. 44 LeoNo Gravatar

    What I’m talking about is expressions of outrage which primarily have a political or religious motivation… as I and many other feminists are have chosen to do something practical about the issue by giving financial support to women working in African countries who are working within their own communities to convince others that the practice is wrong and abhorrent (as I said in my original post) and should cease. ..I would strongly urge those who wish to see FGM disappear as a source of horror and trauma for girls and women to give financial support to this organisation. I continue to believe, and agree with Matthew Yglesias and Samhita at Feministing, that this is the most practical and effective way of working to eliminate the scourge of FGM. I believe that Ali does useful work in highlighting the horrific realities of FGM, as I said on the original thread, but I believe that the best step that can be taken to work against it is to give support to those who are best placed to do so where it occurs, not to politicise the issue.

    I don’t understand what you mean by “politicisng.”

    If a victim of rape came out to openly talk about the horror of rape (and did a world wide public speaking tour) would you say that they were going the wrong way about it? As an arm chair observer who is never been in the victims shoes, would you claim to have a better insight and approach than they do?

    If genitile mutilitation was openly conducted in say the United States and practiced by white catholics and protestents would you adopt your “non-political” approach there too?

    And I’m guessing that what you mean by “political approach”, is not to speak out too openly about it lest you stoke provocation among people. But isn’t this what feminists, animals rights activists, enviormentalists, political dissidents and many other groups have been doing all along - i.e. adopting a “political approach” (speaking out, protesting and provoking others) to draw attention to plight and suffering? How are muslim dissidents any different?

    The irony is that you too have “politicised” this issue for your convienance - after all criticising certain cultures and the subsequent fear of “provoking them” doesn’t really fit into your PC world view…whilst speaking out on much more trendier issues and provoking other groups of people is perfectly cool and chique.

    Those whose worldview caused her suffering in the first place, and those who would seek to silence her through threats and intimidation are acting in an evil and abhorrent fashion.

    glad you acknowledged it.

    Since we are on the topic of “silencing,” I would to point out the irony of how certain groups of people always complain about some evil conspiracry to silence and stifle their free speech - whether its by a government or some evil joooowesh zionist boogey man.

    Yet its that very same group of people who decry and a vilify a woman whose only crime is to merely exercise that same right that they claim are being denied to them. A woman who comes out to speak against A REAL evil and barbaric practice.

    For the people who bitch about their views being “stifled” and “censored,” and then simoltenously mock Ali, I would like to ask - how many body guards & police officers do you have escorting you 24/7?

    And I’m not refering to this blog (I’ve taken what Kim has said in her defence into account) I’m just making a general observation on the types of reactions Ali has stirred up.

    To argue that any criticism of her means that one “sides� with those who against all liberal principles wish to silence her is to totally misunderstand the very same traditions of debate and argument she argues are of paramount importance to a free society.

    Once again the approach that you claim Ali takes, is one clearly found among many western “intellectuals” - and many among them are Ali’s most strident critics.

    FGM is practiced in many sub-Saharan African countries where Islam is not the majority religion

    Can you back this one up?

    Here an article from Wikipedia -

    “The countries that practice FGC the most are: Somalia, followed by Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, and Mali…Whilst FGC is widely practiced out in the open by African Muslims, it is practiced in secrecy in some parts of the Middle East. The practice occurs particularly in northern Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, and Iraq, and there is also circumstantial evidence to suggest it is present in Syria, western Iran and southern Turkey.[13] ”

    In case anyone wasn’t aware - Somalia, Egypt, Sudan and Ethipioa are all mulsim countries.

    FGM is also practiced by some Jews and Christians,

    Once again, can you back this one up - especially with the Jews? I’ve never heard of this being practiced among Jews and have a feeling that your getting a little desperate in a bid to prove a typical PC point - that everything is relative.

  45. 45 Mick StrummerNo Gravatar

    How on earth can anyone conclude that someone like Kim is:

    the reason this sort of thing (the honour killing of Banaz Mahmod Aga) - is becoming increasingly prevalent.

    It goes to show that blogs have increasingly become a forum which some people are using to make ad hominem attacks on others, whilst all the while refusing to engage with the substance of the topic under discussion.
    Cheers…

  46. 46 RobNo Gravatar

    “I don’t think Szego was looking for research on the topic, though, Darlene.”

    Bit puzzled by your and Darlene’s posts. This was an experiential account of an encounter with a remarkable individual. It was honest, straightforward, acknowledged Ali’s occasional arrogance, the many dimensions of the debate, not star-struck. This was not an academic paper — it described an experience and the sometimes conflicting emotions that went with it.

    I mean, we’ve all been there.

  47. 47 LeighNo Gravatar

    Kim you bag the newspapers all the time….but keep it up and it will turn into another fight and Mark will close the thread yadda yadda…you don`t care about the subject you just want to win the fight.

  48. 48 Adam GallNo Gravatar

    Kim, all I have to offer is my support. Even though I’m sure that you understand this polemic, that you can position it and deal with it rationally, it’s still got to be affecting you that you’ve been targeted in this manner. If it’s any consolation, you’re obviously doing something right, or you wouldn’t have raised so much bile from Szego, Blair, et al.

  49. 49 Geoff HonnorNo Gravatar

    I enjoyed Julie Szego’s piece and I’ve also enjoyed Kim’s posts. I think that the FGM aspect has kind of overwhelmed the discussion. Ayaan Hirsi Ali offers her mutilation as symptomatic of a particular cultural mindset that is infused and nurtured by the religion she rejects - for a host of reasons. I agree with those who point to cultural practice as the startpoint but there’s seemingly little doubt that Islam does enable the perpetuation of FGM in parts of Africa and Somalia - AHA’s homeland - is apparently the worst national offender.

    The notion that “western feminists” should be obliged to end the practice single-handedly does seem a tad bizarre but it’s surely equally bizarre to insist that AHA should somehow shut up about it because it might piss the Islamic patriarchy off and make them resistant to gradual change. It’s her story and she’s extraordinarily brave to tell it.

    Rob is right that AHA has been taken up by the Right in a way that creates discomfort. It’s a shame that she went to the American Enterprise Institute rather than the Brookings Institution but there you go.

    The thing I find most disturbing about all of this is that she is in daily fear of her life because she publicly rejects the faith she was born into. She shouldn’t be.

  50. 50 RobNo Gravatar

    There wasn’t any bile in Szego’s article. She simply noted there had been a storm in the ozblogos, and used it as a lead into a very interesting article. She didn’t have a go at either Kim or Tim, merely used the event as a cue.

  51. 51 RobNo Gravatar

    Exactly, Geoff.

  52. 52 steve at the pubNo Gravatar

    Geoff Honnor, AHA is in big strife with the “Religion of Peace” not only for dipping out of it, but for publicising the way ROP adherents in the Netherlands are treating their womenfolk.

  53. 53 KimNo Gravatar

    Once again, can you back this one up - especially with the Jews? I’ve never heard of this being practiced among Jews and have a feeling that your getting a little desperate in a bid to prove a typical PC point - that everything is relative.

    Certainly, Leo, but it would be helpful if you’d looked at the previous threads where this has been discussed (a commenter at Tim Blair’s even found a reference from the US state department which referred to the practice of FGM among Ethiopian Jews).

    Firstly, Egypt is not a wholly Muslim country - there’s a substantial minority of Coptic Christians. And Ethiopia is not a Muslim but a Christian country.

    Rather than go back over all the links that were quoted - I’d refer you to this UK NGO.

    http://www.forwarduk.org.uk/key-issues/fgm

    For instance, FGM is widely practiced by Christians in Ghana and animists in Burkina Faso

    Please note that the incidence of FGM is related to ethnic/tribal background, not to religion. In particular countries, people with the same religion practice FGM as people who don’t practice it.

    If genitile mutilitation was openly conducted in say the United States and practiced by white catholics and protestents would you adopt your “non-political� approach there too?

    And I’m guessing that what you mean by “political approach�, is not to speak out too openly about it lest you stoke provocation among people.

    As a white American Catholic, I’d be speaking out about it. My point is that the most effective way of working against it is to support those who are best placed to convince people who do it. It just stands to reason that African women are going to be more likely to persuade other Africans than people from Australia who want to say “you have to leave your faith, it’s pre-modern and barbaric” or whatever (which is basically Hirsi Ali’s position). I’m certainly not afraid of giving offence, I’m just concerned that we don’t turn the issue into a political/religious football.

    Rob, I think you’d agree that there are a lot of value judgements in the Szego piece.

    Adam, thanks.

    Geoff:

    it’s surely equally bizarre to insist that AHA should somehow shut up about it because it might piss the Islamic patriarchy off and make them resistant to gradual change. It’s her story and she’s extraordinarily brave to tell it.

    But who’s said she should shut up? I’m all in favour of her right to freedom of speech. I just want to protect the right of those who disagree with her not to be vilified, insulted and denigrated.

    The thing I find most disturbing about all of this is that she is in daily fear of her life because she publicly rejects the faith she was born into. She shouldn’t be.

    I totally agree.

  54. 54 Adam GallNo Gravatar

    Yes, that does seem to be true Rob. As if there wasn’t enough conflation of positions already in this ‘debate’! At worst, Szego is recycling bile from TB. There doesn’t seem to be much of her own in there with it.

  55. 55 Adam GallNo Gravatar

    Value judgements, though, I can see.

  56. 56 LeoNo Gravatar

    Firstly, Egypt is not a wholly Muslim country - there’s a substantial minority of Coptic Christians.

    Well if you call 10% a “substantial minority…”

    “Islam is the state religion in Egypt, and approximately 90% of the population is Muslim.”

    And Ethiopia is not a Muslim but a Christian country.

    According to the latest CIA World Factbook, Islam is the most widely practiced religion , with 45-50% of Ethiopians adhering to Islam

    Speaking of Ethiopia, as another wiki source notes - “…FGC is widely practiced out in the open by African Muslims…”

    As a white American Catholic, I’d be speaking out about it.

    Ok, but my point was - what would you do about it as a white Australian? Somehow I doubt that you would adopt your own recommended approach of not turning it into a “political issue…” correct me if I’m wrong.

    It should also be noted that this hasn’t just been happening half a world away in Africa or Asia…its been happening here right under our very noses. And where not talking about FGM…there have also been cases of “honor killings” right here and a whole lot of other western countries. A most recent case occurred with the strangeling to death of a Kurdish girl in the UK. Would we need to adopt your “non politicial approach” in this situation too?

    It just stands to reason that African women are going to be more likely to persuade other Africans than people from Australia who want to say “you have to leave your faith, it’s pre-modern and barbaric� or whatever (which is basically Hirsi Ali’s position).

    Last time I checked, Hirsi Ali was an African women, no? Or is she an Australian arm chair observer who lives in an ivory tower?

    Which brings us back to my rape victim analogy. Do you honestly think that you have a better insight on an issue and how to tackle it than someone who has actually lived through it?

    I’m certainly not afraid of giving offence, I’m just concerned that we don’t turn the issue into a political/religious football.

    But you’ve already turned it into one.

    And people who would usually support your “non political approach” will only selectively apply it …and certainly not to say Christians.

  57. 57 KimNo Gravatar

    On the other hand:

    According to the most recent 1994 National Census,[56] Christians make up 61% of the country’s population, Muslims 33%, and practitioners of traditional faiths 5%. However, according to the United States state department and the CIA World Factbook, Islam is the most widely practiced religion in Ethiopia.

    So depends whether you believe the Ethiopian or US governments!

    The pont remains - it’s not a practice associated with a particular religion but one associated with particular ethnic groups.

    Leo, murder and rape and FGM are all specifically illegal in Australia. And so they should be.

    And my point, which I don’t want to endlessly repeat, is that many NGOs have had much success in Africa in persuading people to give up the practice. Please follow the links in the previous post. They’re likely to have more success than Hirsi Ali making a speech in Australia. That’s just fact.

  58. 58 KimNo Gravatar

    And just on the great respect Tim Blair’s commenters have for freedom of speech:

    You are wrong on this one, plain and simple. And the Blair Trogs aren’t about to let you get away with it unscathed. Stop being such a twat and admit it, or prepare your stubborn self for the floggings to continue.

    http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/woman_edited/#257816

    The irony is that I completely agree with, and always have agreed with, this:

    She should say ‘female genital mutilation is always wrong, and I oppose it always’.

    Yes, it is, and yes I do.

    I just don’t think using it as a way of characterising a whole religion or as some sort of argument to have with “the left” in any way treats FGM with the moral seriousness it deserves.

    And I’m not going to resile from that one inch, no matter how many of Mr Blair’s fine commenters call me a “twat” or call for my clitoris to be cut off.

  59. 59 LeoNo Gravatar

    Whichever source is more accurate, there is no denying that Islam plays a very influential and integral role in Ethiopia. This take us back to this statement “FGC is widely practiced out in the open by African Muslims…â€?

    And there is also no denying that - “The countries that practice FGC the most are: Somalia, followed by Egypt, Sudan…Mali…” are all overwhelmingly and predominately muslim nations.

    The pont remains - it’s not a practice associated with a particular religion but one associated with particular ethnic groups.

    But FGC is much more likely to occur among muslims…and worse
    honor killings are mostly committed among muslims. I think religion might play a part in addition to culture…

    Leo, murder and rape and FGM are all specifically illegal in Australia. And so they should be.

    But in an effort to convince members of ethnic/religious minority from refraining from these illegal activities, would you adopt the same “non political approach?”

    And my point, which I don’t want to endlessly repeat, is that many NGOs have had much success in Africa in persuading people to give up the practice.

    Somehow I really doubt it.

    They’re likely to have more success than Hirsi Ali making a speech in Australia. That’s just fact.

    Which brings me back to that same question - do you claim to have a better insight on the issue than Hirsi Ali? Why are you being evasive on that question?

  60. 60 KimNo Gravatar

    You can think what you like, but you should realise that correlation does not imply causation.

    Ghana, for instance, has a population of 66% Christians, and FGM is widespread.

    50% of the people in Burkina Faso are Christian or Animist and around 90% of girls are subjected to FGM.

    I’ve already said everything I want to say about Hirsi Ali’s experience. Much of what you bring up has already been covered ad infinitum in the two previous threads on this topic. My concern in this one is how the debate is structured, and that’s what I want to talk about here.

  61. 61 KimNo Gravatar

    Again, you can doubt what you like, but it’s a bit pointless talking to you if you won’t look at the links that have been provided in the previous post to demonstrate what sort of progress is being made in eliminating FGM in Africa by NGOs and community groups. You may even like to make a donation, if your main interest in fact lies in protecting women and girls and not in loudly denouncing things.

  62. 62 kkNo Gravatar

    for we westerners it is possible to work against fgm in a practical way, by contributing funds to workers who fight against it where it’s happening & attempt to educate practitioners & potential victims of the health hazards & physical & emotional scarring it causes, & also loudly to denounce it as a primitive, barbaric practice that must be eradicated. there is no dichotomy. you do not have to choose one or the other. substitute baby bashing for fgm & see if anyone agrees that loud denunciation is unacceptable

    hirsi ali is in danger less for speaking out against the appalling practice of fgm, practised upon her in an african/islamic cultural context, than for her apostasy. her real crime in the eyes of those who threaten her with death is rejection of islam. anyone who cannot see that is wilfully blind to the facts

  63. 63 LeighNo Gravatar

    Kim you are not the issue here…if you don`t like Tim Blair stop checking what his “people’are saying about you.Why do you care?For the love of God Kim as A white American Catholic…turn the other cheek

  64. 64 anthonyNo Gravatar

    “prepare your stubborn self for the floggings to continue.”

    I know you’ve been the subject of attack Kim, but to be entirely fair to the commenter, in this instance he was addressing his penis.

  65. 65 joNo Gravatar

    Leo,

    While religion can help explain FGM/C distribution in many countries, the relationship is not consistent. In six of the countries where data on religion are available – Benin, Côte d’Ivoire, Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya and Senegal – Muslim population groups are more likely to practise FGM/C than Christian groups (see Figure 10, page 11). In five countries there seems to be no significant differences, while in Niger, Nigeria and the United Republic of Tanzania the prevalence is greater
    among Christian groups. Looking at religion independently, it is not possible to establish a general association with FGM/C status.

    The most marked differences can be observed in Benin, Côte d’Ivoire, Ghana and Senegal. In Côte d’Ivoire, for example, 79 per cent of Muslim women have undergone FGM/C, compared with 16 per cent of Christian women. This trend is reinforced in the analysis of FGM/C status of daughters (see Table 2C, page 37). In four countries, Muslim women are more likely to have circumcised daughters than women of other religious affi liations.

    In Ethiopia, Kenya, Niger and the United Republic of Tanzania, prevalence of FGM/C is higher among daughters of Christian women than among daughters of Muslim women. This could be attributed, however, to other factors such as ethnicity and the overall distribution of the various religious groups within these countries.

    FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION/CUTTING
    A Statistical Exploration 2005
    Unicef

    http://www.unicef.org/publications/files/FGM-C_final_10_October.pdf

    There have been some posters to these threads who don’t seem to have any understanding of the enormity of the issue for a start - it is estimated that 120 million women have undergone FGM to some degree - adding in the males in these communities/countries you are looking at 240 million people currently, coming off a base of possibly a few thousand years of practice!

    I have previously linked to African NGO’s who are working on the ground in these countries - where they are making good progress in relation to “whole village/community” education and substitution of “coming of age” celebrations for girls, and also finding other work for professional circumcisers - who are in the main - women. These are practical programs which deserve support from everyone who considers FGM a terrible and backward tradition, that must go the same way as foot-binding etc.

    FGM/C is practised for a wide variety of cultural reasons. For some communities, it is
    related to rites of passage. In others, it is considered aesthetically pleasing. Some practise it for reasons related to morality and sexuality. Research into why and how FGM/C is practised among a given group or region is essential for the design of culturally appropriate, effective programmatic interventions.

    Nearly all these countries have also passed laws against FGM and some are supporting education programs. So there is no doubt that the tide is turning against FGM even in the countries where it originated.

    In almost all countries that have conducted more than one survey during the past decade, data indicate that opposition to the practice is increasing. These results are reinforced by the fact that support for the discontinuation of the practice is particularly high among younger women. As FGM/C is deeply ingrained in the social fabric, and in most countries has been practised for a very long time, any increase in opposition, even a small one, represents a significant indication of change.

    Some posters also don’t seem to have any on-going awareness of the incredible difficulties that most African countries have been facing for decades – either famine, shocking wars, droughts, corruption, HIV-Aids, malaria, extreme poverty, no infrastructure, absurdly high rates of child morbidity, a hundred other disgusting diseases, child soldiering - you name it - Africa’s got it.

    Good points KK.

  66. 66 Wingnut WatchNo Gravatar

    In case anyone thinks there’s been some exaggeration about the sort of comment made on Tim Blair’s threads, read this one:

    http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/comments/do_not_denounce_them/#255263

  67. 67 frankNo Gravatar

    And my point, which I don’t want to endlessly repeat, is that many NGOs have had much success in Africa in persuading people to give up the practice. Please follow the links in the previous post. They’re likely to have more success than Hirsi Ali making a speech in Australia. That’s just fact.

    This is odd, surely if the NGOs are having a positive influence then this is a good thing. If Ms Ali can bring about any positive changes then this is also a good thing. Whether one has more success than another is irrelevant? The sum of successes is what counts.

    Unless you think that she is a force for the worse with respect to stopping clitoridectomy?

  68. 68 Li'l Kims FriendNo Gravatar

    Come on Kim.

    This is just imbedded appeasement. I don’t blame you that much. But you’ve got to get in touch with the real reason you are labouring this bullshit appeasement line.

  69. 69 DarleneNo Gravatar

    I take your point, Rob. : ) (sad attempt at a smiley face there, but I meant well). And good point, KK. After all, that’s why she called her book Infidel.

    Someone has been calling Kim a “twat”? (Isn’t twat a slang term for the, gasp, vagina - that’s a bit sexist, isn’t it?). Frankly, I have no problem in saying that there are lots of dicks commenting on blogs.

    I think we’ve all been round blogs enough to know that certain folk find their penises getting longer and longer with every utterance of the words “you’re a lefty” or whatever.

    Ho hum. Next. Who can take seriously middle-aged men who hide behind silly names and have such a need to fit in with the tribe.

    I need to make a correction; Ms Ali was on the Spirit of Things, not The Religion Report.

    http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2007/1942687.htm

    Alas, the podcast or whatever they call it isn’t up yet.

  70. 70 John GreenfieldNo Gravatar

    Kim

    You state that ‘now the debate has moved over to the MSM!’ As if YOU were the zeitgeist. Talk about chutzpah. Kim, it was YOU reacting to the MSM in the first place. It was the nature of your reaction by focusing on Pamela Bone that began your entirely insuportable, ideologically incoherent series of cyber-rants.

    The whole “debate” has, however, been extremely revealing on a whole host of other issues that have flown under the radar in the wider public’s understanding of the modern-day Left.

    But thank you for broadcasting the reality of the pomo multiculti “Left.”

  71. 71 John GreenfieldNo Gravatar

    Pavlov’s Cat

    FaceLift, how often do how many of us need to reiterate (most recently Kim herself again and LearnTheDifferenceBetweenCULTUREandRELIGION, above) that FGM is NOT an Islam-specific practice or anything like one, and is most certainly not a ‘cultural symbol’ of it.

    I would say that many more of “us” need to reiterate, until at least one of “you” has the first clue about Islam and the cultural world that produced it - in the sixth to eighth centuries - and that reproduce it in the 21st century.

    Better start researching, you clearly have a lot to get through, luvvie.

  72. 72 John GreenfieldNo Gravatar

    Darlene

    Way to go, girlfriend! What a great argument. Let’s focus on the REALLY important political issues, like you know, the etymology of ‘twat.’

    At least Kim has a twat to be called, unlike that whingeing, far-right neocon Tim Blair-sockpuppet Ayaan Hirsi Ali, eh!? ;)