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	<title>Comments on: Mohamed Haneef and protecting liberal democracy in the age of terror</title>
	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 05:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-388106</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-388106</guid>
		<description>Can we direct comments to this more recent thread, please? Otherwise it becomes confusing with two threads on the same topic running simultaneously.

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/27/im-so-sorry-my-wife-has-made-a-mistake/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we direct comments to this more recent thread, please? Otherwise it becomes confusing with two threads on the same topic running simultaneously.</p>
<p><a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/27/im-so-sorry-my-wife-has-made-a-mistake/" rel="nofollow">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/27/im-so-sorry-my-wife-has-made-a-mistake/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lefty E</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-388088</link>
		<dc:creator>Lefty E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 10:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-388088</guid>
		<description>That disgraced idiot Andrews should resign.

Are any RWDBs out there concerned that our Government's primary interest in national security questions seems to be the politics of it? 

Outraged when they cant get a wedge out of it - but when it gets down to actual policing - all over the shop, rushed, incompetent, and a complete laughing stock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That disgraced idiot Andrews should resign.</p>
<p>Are any RWDBs out there concerned that our Government&#8217;s primary interest in national security questions seems to be the politics of it? </p>
<p>Outraged when they cant get a wedge out of it - but when it gets down to actual policing - all over the shop, rushed, incompetent, and a complete laughing stock.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin L</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-388083</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-388083</guid>
		<description>I am outraged, but what could be done?!  This poor guy just had his career and reputation destroyed becuase of false accusations made against him. Now, the charges are proven to be false and dropped, yet he just get to be kicked out of our country.   What kind of justice system have we got ourselves into now?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am outraged, but what could be done?!  This poor guy just had his career and reputation destroyed becuase of false accusations made against him. Now, the charges are proven to be false and dropped, yet he just get to be kicked out of our country.   What kind of justice system have we got ourselves into now?!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael D</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386074</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386074</guid>
		<description>Does anyone else get the feeling that as outrageous and disturbing as this abuse of power is, in a few years when it finally comes to trial, Haneef is found guilty, gets deported anyway, and also has to cough up for the time in Villawood, most of the australian public will just go: 

"Oh yeah, that guy with the SIM card..." 


This man's life is ruined well before anyone has shown or proven that he's done anything wrong. 

and I second the Burnside article.  

(an angry) michael D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone else get the feeling that as outrageous and disturbing as this abuse of power is, in a few years when it finally comes to trial, Haneef is found guilty, gets deported anyway, and also has to cough up for the time in Villawood, most of the australian public will just go: </p>
<p>&#8220;Oh yeah, that guy with the SIM card&#8230;&#8221; </p>
<p>This man&#8217;s life is ruined well before anyone has shown or proven that he&#8217;s done anything wrong. </p>
<p>and I second the Burnside article.  </p>
<p>(an angry) michael D</p>
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		<title>By: Gummo Trotsky</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386068</link>
		<dc:creator>Gummo Trotsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386068</guid>
		<description>Nah Katz. Howard and his cabinet are more your pour salt in the mouth and stitch the lips shut type undeads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nah Katz. Howard and his cabinet are more your pour salt in the mouth and stitch the lips shut type undeads.</p>
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		<title>By: Katz</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386066</link>
		<dc:creator>Katz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386066</guid>
		<description>The wedge is soooo 2001.

&lt;a href="http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/backbenchers-raise-the-howard-problem/2007/07/17/1184559789269.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Nowadays&lt;/a&gt; Lib backbenchers are muttering audibly about driving a stake through Ratty's heart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The wedge is soooo 2001.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/backbenchers-raise-the-howard-problem/2007/07/17/1184559789269.html" rel="nofollow">Nowadays</a> Lib backbenchers are muttering audibly about driving a stake through Ratty&#8217;s heart.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mc</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386065</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386065</guid>
		<description>Well Lefty, they've wedged themselves with WorkChoices, so they've still got it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Lefty, they&#8217;ve wedged themselves with WorkChoices, so they&#8217;ve still got it.</p>
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		<title>By: Lefty E</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386064</link>
		<dc:creator>Lefty E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386064</guid>
		<description>Yeah, but the government was still credible in those days Craig.

What if they gave a wedge, and no-one came?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, but the government was still credible in those days Craig.</p>
<p>What if they gave a wedge, and no-one came?</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mc</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386062</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386062</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Just hold your noses, boys, dont break ranks, keep cool, dead bat and keep marching till election day.
...
Then reform the laws.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Which is exactly what the electorate thought would happen in 2001.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Just hold your noses, boys, dont break ranks, keep cool, dead bat and keep marching till election day.<br />
&#8230;<br />
Then reform the laws.</p></blockquote>
<p>Which is exactly what the electorate thought would happen in 2001.</p>
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		<title>By: GregM</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386058</link>
		<dc:creator>GregM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386058</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link, Kim. It's always good to see the idiocy taking place across the Tasman.  It makes us know that we must be doing something right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link, Kim. It&#8217;s always good to see the idiocy taking place across the Tasman.  It makes us know that we must be doing something right.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386052</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386052</guid>
		<description>A view from the NZ blogosphere:

http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2007/07/attack-on-rule-of-law.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A view from the NZ blogosphere:</p>
<p><a href="http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2007/07/attack-on-rule-of-law.html" rel="nofollow">http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2007/07/attack-on-rule-of-law.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Shaun</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386048</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386048</guid>
		<description>curious cow, Apologies for the late response. 

Wilkinson, who I mentioned in the OP, cites the near breakdown of the police in Ulster as an example of how policing (and intelligence gathering) become difficult without public support. It is an extreme example but serves as a point.  

Related to this, the ANU's Clive Williams has argued that one historical factor in limiting terrorist attacks in Australia has been the government allowing certain groups to operate openly. Not driving suspect organizations underground has made it easier for law enforcement and other agencies keep tabs on such groups. 

Of course there are many elements to a successful counterterrorism strategy. However, I do think it is obvious that  marginalizing groups through a perceived partisan approach to law enforcement is a counter productive to the cause as a whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>curious cow, Apologies for the late response. </p>
<p>Wilkinson, who I mentioned in the OP, cites the near breakdown of the police in Ulster as an example of how policing (and intelligence gathering) become difficult without public support. It is an extreme example but serves as a point.  </p>
<p>Related to this, the ANU&#8217;s Clive Williams has argued that one historical factor in limiting terrorist attacks in Australia has been the government allowing certain groups to operate openly. Not driving suspect organizations underground has made it easier for law enforcement and other agencies keep tabs on such groups. </p>
<p>Of course there are many elements to a successful counterterrorism strategy. However, I do think it is obvious that  marginalizing groups through a perceived partisan approach to law enforcement is a counter productive to the cause as a whole.</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386047</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386047</guid>
		<description>Ville

&lt;blockquote&gt;I would have thought the point of the wedge was to force the Labor Party into disagreeing with Government’s position, a la Tampa in 2001&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well you thought wrong. It is only in YOUR head that a wedge exists. If the Opposition is not capable of having a coherent position on such an important threat as Islamism, it does not deserve to win government.

Fortunately, as I said, Labor overwhelmingly realizes the reality of the Muslim menace. Opposing these people is the right thing to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ville</p>
<blockquote><p>I would have thought the point of the wedge was to force the Labor Party into disagreeing with Government’s position, a la Tampa in 2001</p></blockquote>
<p>Well you thought wrong. It is only in YOUR head that a wedge exists. If the Opposition is not capable of having a coherent position on such an important threat as Islamism, it does not deserve to win government.</p>
<p>Fortunately, as I said, Labor overwhelmingly realizes the reality of the Muslim menace. Opposing these people is the right thing to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386028</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386028</guid>
		<description>He certainly came across as very straight down the line, Lefty E.

I'm hoping what Ken L is hoping:

&lt;blockquote&gt;You know to a rank amateur like me, calling a Senior Counsel’s behaviour ‘highly unethical’ sounds remarkably like defamation … unless of course it was unethical, in which case I expect the nation’s first law officer to bring the appropriate proceedings before the Bar Council at an early date.

And if he doesn’t, &lt;strong&gt;I hope Stephen Keim sues and we see the Corpse Who Walks making an abject public apology.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He certainly came across as very straight down the line, Lefty E.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m hoping what Ken L is hoping:</p>
<blockquote><p>You know to a rank amateur like me, calling a Senior Counsel’s behaviour ‘highly unethical’ sounds remarkably like defamation … unless of course it was unethical, in which case I expect the nation’s first law officer to bring the appropriate proceedings before the Bar Council at an early date.</p>
<p>And if he doesn’t, <strong>I hope Stephen Keim sues and we see the Corpse Who Walks making an abject public apology.</strong></p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Lefty E</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386026</link>
		<dc:creator>Lefty E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:42:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386026</guid>
		<description>I know Keim, Kim.

He's not a loose cannon, nor a radical - he's a bar traditionalist in many ways, and has been an acting judge. 

They wont be able to smear him. 

He's called their bluff, and they've got nothing to counter with, since theyve been leaking from the same document like rusty sieves for political effect all week.

More broadly, these guys are too interested in the politics of national security to be in charge of it. 

The various Red Armies never put their poliltcal commissars on watch for a reason. 

They werent any good at it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know Keim, Kim.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s not a loose cannon, nor a radical - he&#8217;s a bar traditionalist in many ways, and has been an acting judge. </p>
<p>They wont be able to smear him. </p>
<p>He&#8217;s called their bluff, and they&#8217;ve got nothing to counter with, since theyve been leaking from the same document like rusty sieves for political effect all week.</p>
<p>More broadly, these guys are too interested in the politics of national security to be in charge of it. </p>
<p>The various Red Armies never put their poliltcal commissars on watch for a reason. </p>
<p>They werent any good at it.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386023</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386023</guid>
		<description>Ken L on Heim at Surfdom:

http://www.roadtosurfdom.com/2007/07/18/theres-lawyers-and-theres-lawyers/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken L on Heim at Surfdom:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.roadtosurfdom.com/2007/07/18/theres-lawyers-and-theres-lawyers/" rel="nofollow">http://www.roadtosurfdom.com/2007/07/18/theres-lawyers-and-theres-lawyers/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386021</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386021</guid>
		<description>Good on him. Howard and Ruddock won't have expected it. It'll be interesting to see how they react to courage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good on him. Howard and Ruddock won&#8217;t have expected it. It&#8217;ll be interesting to see how they react to courage.</p>
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		<title>By: Lefty E</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386019</link>
		<dc:creator>Lefty E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386019</guid>
		<description>Bugger it, Im with Rudd's nod-a-thon.

Just hold your noses, boys, dont break ranks, keep cool, dead bat and keep marching till election day.

They're getting desperate, they stink of fear, like herded rodents before a slaughter - keep smiling, nodding, and take these &lt;em&gt;cynical lowlife coalition shitstains to the fucking cleaners in November&lt;/em&gt;.

Then reform the laws. 

And remember, folks, in Saddam's Iraq, unreviewable administrative detention trumped judicial determination too.

And three cheers for Keim. He's a brave man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bugger it, Im with Rudd&#8217;s nod-a-thon.</p>
<p>Just hold your noses, boys, dont break ranks, keep cool, dead bat and keep marching till election day.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re getting desperate, they stink of fear, like herded rodents before a slaughter - keep smiling, nodding, and take these <em>cynical lowlife coalition shitstains to the fucking cleaners in November</em>.</p>
<p>Then reform the laws. </p>
<p>And remember, folks, in Saddam&#8217;s Iraq, unreviewable administrative detention trumped judicial determination too.</p>
<p>And three cheers for Keim. He&#8217;s a brave man.</p>
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		<title>By: Ville</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386011</link>
		<dc:creator>Ville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-386011</guid>
		<description>John Greenfield:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The only way this can happen is if Labor does not have a position on these issues OR they are in agreement with the government.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I would have thought the point of the wedge was to force the Labor Party into disagreeing with Government's position, a la Tampa in 2001.  Anything less than full agreement with whatever is being done to Haneef is soft on terrorism etc etc.  I can see why everyone in the Liberal/National parties would acquiesce quietly to any excursions into the moral hinterland - the way the polls are looking, anything with the slightest chance of turning their fortunes around would necessarily require full support.  Labor may split on the issue though.

Unless Labor give it at least qualified support, they may open themselves to political attacks if there are any terrorist events between now and the election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Greenfield:</p>
<blockquote><p>The only way this can happen is if Labor does not have a position on these issues OR they are in agreement with the government.</p></blockquote>
<p>I would have thought the point of the wedge was to force the Labor Party into disagreeing with Government&#8217;s position, a la Tampa in 2001.  Anything less than full agreement with whatever is being done to Haneef is soft on terrorism etc etc.  I can see why everyone in the Liberal/National parties would acquiesce quietly to any excursions into the moral hinterland - the way the polls are looking, anything with the slightest chance of turning their fortunes around would necessarily require full support.  Labor may split on the issue though.</p>
<p>Unless Labor give it at least qualified support, they may open themselves to political attacks if there are any terrorist events between now and the election.</p>
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		<title>By: adrian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-385998</link>
		<dc:creator>adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/17/protecting-liberal-democracy-in-the-age-of-terror/#comment-385998</guid>
		<description>Good f**cking question, Question Mark.

I would encourage those who have an interest in the actual topic to read the leaked transcript of the interview with the unfortunate doctor.

Why The GG thought that it was OK to include e-mail addresses and phone numbers beggers belief, but I suppose it's consistent with just about every other aspect of this sorry affair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good f**cking question, Question Mark.</p>
<p>I would encourage those who have an interest in the actual topic to read the leaked transcript of the interview with the unfortunate doctor.</p>
<p>Why The GG thought that it was OK to include e-mail addresses and phone numbers beggers belief, but I suppose it&#8217;s consistent with just about every other aspect of this sorry affair.</p>
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