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	<title>Comments on: ABCC and Econtech: flawed assumptions, biased report</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85866</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2007 04:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85866</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/10/2001845.htm?section=justin&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Another report &lt;/a&gt;of dubious value excites Hockey</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/10/2001845.htm?section=justin" rel="nofollow">Another report </a>of dubious value excites Hockey</p>
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		<title>By: Bingo Bango Boingo</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85865</link>
		<dc:creator>Bingo Bango Boingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good points, Andrew E.

Going further, there are few classes of organisation that have so blatantly preyed on the most vulnerable in our community as the trade unions.  Their motives are generally very base indeed.  To be fair, safety issues are an exception.  There is a degree of unintended irony in some of Trevor&#039;s comments about the ABCC; the trade unions are the most ideologically driven bodies in Australia.  Even more so than what passes for the Liberal Party these days.

BBB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points, Andrew E.</p>
<p>Going further, there are few classes of organisation that have so blatantly preyed on the most vulnerable in our community as the trade unions.  Their motives are generally very base indeed.  To be fair, safety issues are an exception.  There is a degree of unintended irony in some of Trevor&#8217;s comments about the ABCC; the trade unions are the most ideologically driven bodies in Australia.  Even more so than what passes for the Liberal Party these days.</p>
<p>BBB</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew E</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85864</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 06:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85864</guid>
		<description>There is no &quot;type&quot;, amused.

I don&#039;t know, Trevor; and if I told you in the current political climate I&#039;d probably get arrested.

Wat I don&#039;t understand is: if it&#039;s OK to criticise goverments and business, why is it never OK to criticise unions? At all? For anything, no matter what? Isn&#039;t it rich to simply dismiss the Cole Commission out of hand for its ideology, while excusing all union activity because (you believe) their motives are pure? I don&#039;t see how you can defend Kevin bloody Reynolds or 90% of all the paid parasites who get around in their dinky little ComeFuckMeUnion polo shirts. In trade unionism, as with other areas of human activity, there is a gap between lofty intentions and actual practice: the sooner trade unionists realise this, the better they will be able to arrest the decay of this curate&#039;s egg.

That said, I would love to see an inquiry as an aggregation of coronial inquests into those who die on building sites, put a few rules in place etc. I&#039;m surprised the ABCC hasn&#039;t done this. I&#039;m surprised the cashed-up union hasn&#039;t done this. I&#039;m stunned if I&#039;m the first person who&#039;s thought of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no &#8220;type&#8221;, amused.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know, Trevor; and if I told you in the current political climate I&#8217;d probably get arrested.</p>
<p>Wat I don&#8217;t understand is: if it&#8217;s OK to criticise goverments and business, why is it never OK to criticise unions? At all? For anything, no matter what? Isn&#8217;t it rich to simply dismiss the Cole Commission out of hand for its ideology, while excusing all union activity because (you believe) their motives are pure? I don&#8217;t see how you can defend Kevin bloody Reynolds or 90% of all the paid parasites who get around in their dinky little ComeFuckMeUnion polo shirts. In trade unionism, as with other areas of human activity, there is a gap between lofty intentions and actual practice: the sooner trade unionists realise this, the better they will be able to arrest the decay of this curate&#8217;s egg.</p>
<p>That said, I would love to see an inquiry as an aggregation of coronial inquests into those who die on building sites, put a few rules in place etc. I&#8217;m surprised the ABCC hasn&#8217;t done this. I&#8217;m surprised the cashed-up union hasn&#8217;t done this. I&#8217;m stunned if I&#8217;m the first person who&#8217;s thought of it.</p>
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		<title>By: amused</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85863</link>
		<dc:creator>amused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 05:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85863</guid>
		<description>Andrew E you are the small but perfect example of the type.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew E you are the small but perfect example of the type.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85862</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 04:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85862</guid>
		<description>There was a secret volume of the Cole commission that supposedly laid out the grounds for criminal charges in 26 cases. How many criminal charges were laid as a result of the Cole commission, Andrew? And how many led to convictions?

The record on civil matters is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.redrag.net/2005/04/23/taskforce/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pretty bad&lt;/a&gt;, too.

The Cole Commission and the ABCC are ideologically-driven union-busting exercises. The most serious issue facing the industry is safety, but they don&#039;t care if a few people die as long as there are some anti-union headlines from time to time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a secret volume of the Cole commission that supposedly laid out the grounds for criminal charges in 26 cases. How many criminal charges were laid as a result of the Cole commission, Andrew? And how many led to convictions?</p>
<p>The record on civil matters is <a href="http://www.redrag.net/2005/04/23/taskforce/" rel="nofollow">pretty bad</a>, too.</p>
<p>The Cole Commission and the ABCC are ideologically-driven union-busting exercises. The most serious issue facing the industry is safety, but they don&#8217;t care if a few people die as long as there are some anti-union headlines from time to time.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew E</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85861</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 03:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85861</guid>
		<description>Just because someone claims to be representing the better interests of workers doesn&#039;t mean they actually are, amused.

Just because I&#039;m disorganised doesn&#039;t mean that you&#039;re the one to organise me.

Nobody has claimed that the factors in the Royal Commission that gave rise to the ABCC have been addressed, and just as well. The first sentence in my earlier posts stands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because someone claims to be representing the better interests of workers doesn&#8217;t mean they actually are, amused.</p>
<p>Just because I&#8217;m disorganised doesn&#8217;t mean that you&#8217;re the one to organise me.</p>
<p>Nobody has claimed that the factors in the Royal Commission that gave rise to the ABCC have been addressed, and just as well. The first sentence in my earlier posts stands.</p>
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		<title>By: amused</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85860</link>
		<dc:creator>amused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 02:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85860</guid>
		<description>&#039;Organised labour&#039; is another term for people who take the rational view that being disorganized is a recipe for being ripped off, injured and killed. People pay weekly subscriptions to pay representatives they elect to look out for them, to represent them to management, and to the industry generally, and to ensure that while they are working for a living, someone is looking out for the things that accountants, tax lawyers, consultants, economists employed by think tanks, public servants, journalists, business analysts and the like, do for the people who employ them. It is called &#039;civil society&#039;.

It has been assumed, at least since WW2 that such arrangements are a necessary (although of course, not sufficient), condition of liberal democratic society.

It is an intersting sign of the confident, booming and exciting times, that employers in a number of dangerous industries are becoming increasingly confident and open about &#039;pricing&#039; safety risk, and simply passing on the cost of the risk to the final consumer. The laws increasingly discourage approaching the inherent risks of certain occupations through other more democratic and conservative means, and even if it didn&#039;t, the growing confidence in general impunity for the powerful means it doesn&#039;t much matter.

Attending the funerals of people killed at work, is just the same as attending the funerals of anyone who has died before their time, but there is an extra something to the occasion, each time relatives and friends know some accountant and politician and some nerd in some think tank decidied their husband/son/sister/brother life was worth an additional 0.00001% reduction in costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Organised labour&#8217; is another term for people who take the rational view that being disorganized is a recipe for being ripped off, injured and killed. People pay weekly subscriptions to pay representatives they elect to look out for them, to represent them to management, and to the industry generally, and to ensure that while they are working for a living, someone is looking out for the things that accountants, tax lawyers, consultants, economists employed by think tanks, public servants, journalists, business analysts and the like, do for the people who employ them. It is called &#8216;civil society&#8217;.</p>
<p>It has been assumed, at least since WW2 that such arrangements are a necessary (although of course, not sufficient), condition of liberal democratic society.</p>
<p>It is an intersting sign of the confident, booming and exciting times, that employers in a number of dangerous industries are becoming increasingly confident and open about &#8216;pricing&#8217; safety risk, and simply passing on the cost of the risk to the final consumer. The laws increasingly discourage approaching the inherent risks of certain occupations through other more democratic and conservative means, and even if it didn&#8217;t, the growing confidence in general impunity for the powerful means it doesn&#8217;t much matter.</p>
<p>Attending the funerals of people killed at work, is just the same as attending the funerals of anyone who has died before their time, but there is an extra something to the occasion, each time relatives and friends know some accountant and politician and some nerd in some think tank decidied their husband/son/sister/brother life was worth an additional 0.00001% reduction in costs.</p>
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		<title>By: MorningDude</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85859</link>
		<dc:creator>MorningDude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 02:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In a further centralisation of power, isn&#039;t the Federal government attempting to move all workers off State based accident injury payouts and onto it&#039;s very restrictive ComCare system?

Yet another way of screwing the worker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a further centralisation of power, isn&#8217;t the Federal government attempting to move all workers off State based accident injury payouts and onto it&#8217;s very restrictive ComCare system?</p>
<p>Yet another way of screwing the worker.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85858</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 00:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85858</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The TOR was something like ‘outline the benefits of further deregulation, and the costs of reregulation’.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes that was it Kymbos, and the writer of the article said exactly the same thing about the detrimental effect on the credibility of whoever accepted the tender.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The TOR was something like ‘outline the benefits of further deregulation, and the costs of reregulation’.</i></p>
<p>Yes that was it Kymbos, and the writer of the article said exactly the same thing about the detrimental effect on the credibility of whoever accepted the tender.</p>
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		<title>By: kymbos</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85857</link>
		<dc:creator>kymbos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/07/25/abcc-and-econtech-flawed-assumptions-biased-report/#comment-85857</guid>
		<description>I remember that study being commissioned.  Working at an economics consultancy, we wouldn&#039;t have touched it for quids.  The TOR was something like &#039;outline the benefits of further deregulation, and the costs of reregulation&#039;.  Lovely cost/benefit analysis there: measure the benefits of what we like, and the costs of what we don&#039;t, and ignore the rest.

I remember thinking that whoever won the tender would not be banking on their credibility in future.  Doesn&#039;t sound like this mob had much to begin with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember that study being commissioned.  Working at an economics consultancy, we wouldn&#8217;t have touched it for quids.  The TOR was something like &#8216;outline the benefits of further deregulation, and the costs of reregulation&#8217;.  Lovely cost/benefit analysis there: measure the benefits of what we like, and the costs of what we don&#8217;t, and ignore the rest.</p>
<p>I remember thinking that whoever won the tender would not be banking on their credibility in future.  Doesn&#8217;t sound like this mob had much to begin with.</p>
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