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	<title>Comments on: Police state nation</title>
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	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: blacklight</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84294</link>
		<dc:creator>blacklight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 23:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I AM THE ORACLE!!

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22180822-601,00.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I AM THE ORACLE!!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22180822-601,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22180822-601,00.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Graham Bell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84293</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 21:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nasking:
That program &quot;Spying on the Home Front&quot; on SBS was indeed enlightening.

This was the only brilliant move ever made by America&#039;s ruler, George II The Ruiner.

Stalin, the Cheka and the NKVD would all be proud of what he has done - at the stroke of the pen, he turned EVERYBODY in the United States - except those in his own inner circle - into suspects.  Never mind the Declaration of Independence, the Bill Of Rights, the U.S. Constitution,  you are automatically a criminal or a terrorist.  If you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are not, well, that doesn&#039;t matter because you might be thinking of becoming one.

....and we&#039;re next ....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nasking:<br />
That program &#8220;Spying on the Home Front&#8221; on SBS was indeed enlightening.</p>
<p>This was the only brilliant move ever made by America&#8217;s ruler, George II The Ruiner.</p>
<p>Stalin, the Cheka and the NKVD would all be proud of what he has done &#8211; at the stroke of the pen, he turned EVERYBODY in the United States &#8211; except those in his own inner circle &#8211; into suspects.  Never mind the Declaration of Independence, the Bill Of Rights, the U.S. Constitution,  you are automatically a criminal or a terrorist.  If you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are not, well, that doesn&#8217;t matter because you might be thinking of becoming one.</p>
<p>&#8230;.and we&#8217;re next &#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Blacklight</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84292</link>
		<dc:creator>Blacklight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 06:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>as for Hannef

ALP &#039;non reaction&#039; reaction is perfect politically. Morally tho...

the general lack of reaction from Rudd on howards power grabs is also probally ok to. ie &#039;Just pork barrelling&#039;, which it is.

Let howard and the states fight it out for the ugly stuff, leaving Ruddster to be positive.

Will the Nationals stand for a centrist power grab tho?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as for Hannef</p>
<p>ALP &#8216;non reaction&#8217; reaction is perfect politically. Morally tho&#8230;</p>
<p>the general lack of reaction from Rudd on howards power grabs is also probally ok to. ie &#8216;Just pork barrelling&#8217;, which it is.</p>
<p>Let howard and the states fight it out for the ugly stuff, leaving Ruddster to be positive.</p>
<p>Will the Nationals stand for a centrist power grab tho?</p>
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		<title>By: Blacklight</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84291</link>
		<dc:creator>Blacklight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 06:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84291</guid>
		<description>wedge, wedge, wedge, wedge

Aborignal Affairs, Hospitals, School Bus Seatbelts

now the various principal associations (well known as liberal party fronts) talking about currciulum.

wait for Julies takeover plans.

Already she is &#039;surveying&#039; Principals about &#039;autonomy&#039;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wedge, wedge, wedge, wedge</p>
<p>Aborignal Affairs, Hospitals, School Bus Seatbelts</p>
<p>now the various principal associations (well known as liberal party fronts) talking about currciulum.</p>
<p>wait for Julies takeover plans.</p>
<p>Already she is &#8216;surveying&#8217; Principals about &#8216;autonomy&#8217;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: nasking</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84290</link>
		<dc:creator>nasking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In case you missed the Frontline program &#039;Spying on the Home Front&#039; last night (Cutting Edge, SBS), you need to check it out...it can be viewed at:

 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/view/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case you missed the Frontline program &#8216;Spying on the Home Front&#8217; last night (Cutting Edge, SBS), you need to check it out&#8230;it can be viewed at:</p>
<p> <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/view/" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/view/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Frank Calabrese</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84289</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Calabrese</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 15:41:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84289</guid>
		<description>Good to see the ALP speaking out against these new laws.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/search-powers-too-broad-says-alp/2007/08/01/1185647979264.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;In a sign of an increasingly vocal Opposition on security laws, Labor&#039;s homeland security spokesman, Arch Bevis, said yesterday his party would oppose the breadth of the controversial delayed notification search warrants.

&quot;They go beyond what we think is fair,&quot; Mr Bevis said. &quot;It clearly needs to be changed and Labor will be moving amendments.&quot;

The warrants allow police to secretly search a residence or building, plant listening devices and scour computer and communications records for six months without telling the affected person. That period can be extended, potentially indefinitely.

Mr Bevis said such powers must be restricted to serious terrorism or organised crime investigations, not the offences envisaged by the Government. A sunset clause should also be introduced. &lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

Expect the usual line from the Govt acusing the ALP of supporting Terrorism etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to see the ALP speaking out against these new laws.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/search-powers-too-broad-says-alp/2007/08/01/1185647979264.html" rel="nofollow"><br />
<blockquote>In a sign of an increasingly vocal Opposition on security laws, Labor&#8217;s homeland security spokesman, Arch Bevis, said yesterday his party would oppose the breadth of the controversial delayed notification search warrants.</p>
<p>&#8220;They go beyond what we think is fair,&#8221; Mr Bevis said. &#8220;It clearly needs to be changed and Labor will be moving amendments.&#8221;</p>
<p>The warrants allow police to secretly search a residence or building, plant listening devices and scour computer and communications records for six months without telling the affected person. That period can be extended, potentially indefinitely.</p>
<p>Mr Bevis said such powers must be restricted to serious terrorism or organised crime investigations, not the offences envisaged by the Government. A sunset clause should also be introduced. </p></blockquote>
<blockquote></blockquote>
<p></a></p>
<p>Expect the usual line from the Govt acusing the ALP of supporting Terrorism etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham Bell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84288</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84288</guid>
		<description>Kina:
Agree.

Another 3 years?  Recolonization.  Military occupation with several powers protecting their own nation&#039;s assets.  Widespread poverty and shortages.  Stagnant economy with very low unreliable wages and inflation - possibly hyperinflation.   Severe restrictions on every aspect of daily life.  Collapse of essential services.  Uncontrolled crime. Armed conflict by gangs and militias.  And fear - continual numbing fear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kina:<br />
Agree.</p>
<p>Another 3 years?  Recolonization.  Military occupation with several powers protecting their own nation&#8217;s assets.  Widespread poverty and shortages.  Stagnant economy with very low unreliable wages and inflation &#8211; possibly hyperinflation.   Severe restrictions on every aspect of daily life.  Collapse of essential services.  Uncontrolled crime. Armed conflict by gangs and militias.  And fear &#8211; continual numbing fear.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham Bell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84287</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mark:
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;....a craven opposition vowing not to be wedged isn’t helping in the slightest&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
What opposition?   This is why I keep referring to Australia as having one-faction-two-parties.

Frank Calabrese:
So Downer and his pals shout to the whole world that they haven&#039;t got a clue about the difference between toughness and bullying.   Anyone who seriously believes  that fairy-tale about a trade-off of security against liberty really is a simpleton.

This is on top of all the Howard regime&#039;s thrashing and smashing in the past few weeks that has ensured that several thousand Australians are now susceptible to recruitment by al Qaeda and its associates.   What&#039;s their next trick in the War On Terrorism?.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;&#8230;.a craven opposition vowing not to be wedged isn’t helping in the slightest&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>What opposition?   This is why I keep referring to Australia as having one-faction-two-parties.</p>
<p>Frank Calabrese:<br />
So Downer and his pals shout to the whole world that they haven&#8217;t got a clue about the difference between toughness and bullying.   Anyone who seriously believes  that fairy-tale about a trade-off of security against liberty really is a simpleton.</p>
<p>This is on top of all the Howard regime&#8217;s thrashing and smashing in the past few weeks that has ensured that several thousand Australians are now susceptible to recruitment by al Qaeda and its associates.   What&#8217;s their next trick in the War On Terrorism?.</p>
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		<title>By: Kina</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84286</link>
		<dc:creator>Kina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Downer&#039;s argument is simplistic and stupid but effective to the unaware. It is similar to the better safe than sorry argument.

Better we lock even remotely suspicious people up then kick them out regardless. This sort of argument if applied to daily life means dont go out the front door, never let your kids out etc...better to be safe than sorry.

Downer is really saying that in order for the Police to protect everyone&#039;s liberty, freedom and human rights we need to take them away. The more we take away the more we can protect them. So - if you give up all your human rights then we can really protect you.

This is how terrorists win, not by blowing things up, but by over the top knee jerk reactions by governments that cut civil liberties. By creating a climate of fear, suspicion and reduced rights the terrorists win. A mature approach by government and society would keep civil rights.

Independant Judicial oversight must always be a part of the system.

Only despotic and authoritarian regeims go in for secretive policing and justice and punishment. This is the way this is heading and Lo, who is our PM? Say no more.

We have to remember also that under Downers watch Habib got rendered to Egypt and tortured [all finger nails were pulled out etc] and the Australian security services knew [Downer says he had no knowledge, like the AWB fiasco]. Downer seemed not to care about this episode even when the USA security services put Australian services right in it.

So Downer is not big on civil liberties - probably he would like them grovelling and eating dirt. To a lot of Howard&#039;s ministers Civil Liberties is simply a dirty word. Gee... I wonder how Australia will look after another 3 years of Howard?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Downer&#8217;s argument is simplistic and stupid but effective to the unaware. It is similar to the better safe than sorry argument.</p>
<p>Better we lock even remotely suspicious people up then kick them out regardless. This sort of argument if applied to daily life means dont go out the front door, never let your kids out etc&#8230;better to be safe than sorry.</p>
<p>Downer is really saying that in order for the Police to protect everyone&#8217;s liberty, freedom and human rights we need to take them away. The more we take away the more we can protect them. So &#8211; if you give up all your human rights then we can really protect you.</p>
<p>This is how terrorists win, not by blowing things up, but by over the top knee jerk reactions by governments that cut civil liberties. By creating a climate of fear, suspicion and reduced rights the terrorists win. A mature approach by government and society would keep civil rights.</p>
<p>Independant Judicial oversight must always be a part of the system.</p>
<p>Only despotic and authoritarian regeims go in for secretive policing and justice and punishment. This is the way this is heading and Lo, who is our PM? Say no more.</p>
<p>We have to remember also that under Downers watch Habib got rendered to Egypt and tortured [all finger nails were pulled out etc] and the Australian security services knew [Downer says he had no knowledge, like the AWB fiasco]. Downer seemed not to care about this episode even when the USA security services put Australian services right in it.</p>
<p>So Downer is not big on civil liberties &#8211; probably he would like them grovelling and eating dirt. To a lot of Howard&#8217;s ministers Civil Liberties is simply a dirty word. Gee&#8230; I wonder how Australia will look after another 3 years of Howard?</p>
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		<title>By: Graham Bell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/08/01/police-state-nation/#comment-84285</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mark:
You are right about many Queenslanders being alert, in recent years, to potential or actual abuses of police powers.

There MUST be independent oversight of how the AFP&#039;s police powers are exercised .... but that oversight must not hinder normal day-to-day policing.   What&#039;s more, the overight must be constant, consistent, informed, trustworthy, confidential, relevant and utterly impartial; the oversight must be there 24/7.

A model worth thinking about is that of the old Cane Prices Board in the Queensland sugar industry, where government check chemists were present on every shift in every mill laboratory where they took random samples from each batch of samples taken for farmers&#039; payment.  Because they were a constant unobtrusive presence and were so completely impartial, they were seen as being as much a help for the mill company or co-operative as for the individual farmers and thus were trusted by all.

Officers of an &lt;strong&gt;independent&lt;/strong&gt; organization unobtrusively present at every interrogation, detention and investigation would do much to keep things on track.   Mistakes would still occur but fewer than at present -- and political interference in an investigation would become rather difficult.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark:<br />
You are right about many Queenslanders being alert, in recent years, to potential or actual abuses of police powers.</p>
<p>There MUST be independent oversight of how the AFP&#8217;s police powers are exercised &#8230;. but that oversight must not hinder normal day-to-day policing.   What&#8217;s more, the overight must be constant, consistent, informed, trustworthy, confidential, relevant and utterly impartial; the oversight must be there 24/7.</p>
<p>A model worth thinking about is that of the old Cane Prices Board in the Queensland sugar industry, where government check chemists were present on every shift in every mill laboratory where they took random samples from each batch of samples taken for farmers&#8217; payment.  Because they were a constant unobtrusive presence and were so completely impartial, they were seen as being as much a help for the mill company or co-operative as for the individual farmers and thus were trusted by all.</p>
<p>Officers of an <strong>independent</strong> organization unobtrusively present at every interrogation, detention and investigation would do much to keep things on track.   Mistakes would still occur but fewer than at present &#8212; and political interference in an investigation would become rather difficult.</p>
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