if the Greens dare to *gasp* act like a political party and use preferences tactically themselves – ie not automatically preference Labor.

I’ve always thought they should.

I also think thereâ??s one contrary point in your argument that Greens preferences are barren ground for Labor – in that case how does this gel with the common belief that Greens follow tickets least of all?

I mean that since, without direction, most Greens voters at the moment preference Labor, preference deals made between Labor and the Greens would have less political effect than deals made with parties whose voters tend to follow how-to-votes.

determined, irrartionally, to â??punishâ?? them

G’day left-wing principled Kettle. I’m cynical right-wing wheeling-dealing Pot, how’s it going?

Sorry, can’t help myself

My first sarky reaction is – it depends how much the ALP in return is going to squeal like half-blanched porkers if the Greens dare to *gasp* act like a political party and use preferences tactically themselves – ie not automatically preference Labor. You can’t have it both ways, but the ALP loves to.

One can easily see of example that Howard/Turnbull are sizing up at the moment whether there’s more votes in Bass and Franklin by stepping in to stop the absolute disaster of the Gunns pulp mill proposal. I know that many Tasmanian Greens would choose to preference Libs over Labor on that.

I also think there’s one contrary point in your argument that Greens preferences are barren ground for Labor – in that case how does this gel with the common belief that Greens follow tickets least of all? Because despite said squealing from the ALP to the contrary, the Greens have I don’t think every directly preferenced Libs, the most they’ve ever done is run split tickets.

And I have to agree with Hannah’s Dad. Doing a preference deal with FF is not only extremely dubious in terms of policy, one has to wonder at the realpolitik thinking behind it – who would Labor prefer to work with in the Senate this time around? FF, who will side with the Coalition as often as with the ALP at best, or the Greens who have a much more in-sync policy set, not to mention vast more experience and intelligence at the Senate level.

what I’ve noticed is that ultimately ALP members frequently have such a pathological, and child-like view of the Greens they are determined, irrartionally, to “punish” them for not being the left faction of the ALP, rather than work with them as a legitimate party. Michael Field personally put huge amounts of effort in last election with the sole goal of trying to stop Christine Milne from getting a Senate seat – and guess who nearly got it with just 2% of the primary vote? Why FF whack-job Jacki Petrusma. Labor didn’t have a prayer at the seat, but apparently it was still worth all that effort to elect a rightwing relligious nutjob over a Green. go figure.

/rant

myriad: “….Labor is talking to FF ahead of the Greens, and the Greens ain’t happy. Nor should any sane ALP voter be.

Liam: “Should any Labor state branch make a deal with FF, it’s certainly not an endorsement of their homophobia, any more than a deal with the Greens would be an endorsement of their environmentalism or social liberalism.”

And even more particularly, for me [who considers himself a sane ALP voter], because I have heard, at stronger than rumour level, that the Federal ALP HAS preferenced FF before the Greens.
Hopefully not.

Nettle I think has had a rude dose recently of purity over you know, getting your representatives re-elected.

Heh. I like your style, myriad.
You’re right, the next election cycle or two are going to be very challenging for the Greens, whoever winds up in Government. They need especially to work out what to do when Bob Brown retires, and how to keep the support of those people who admire him personally but have no reason for structural Greens Party loyalty.
I don’t believe everything I read in the Fairfax press about what happens in Labor Party HQ. I’ve found it a pretty reliable rule of thumb when dealing with ALP Head Offices that as soon as you think you know what’s going on, you can at that moment conclude that someone’s lied to you.
On the broader matter of preferences, I think there’s a common misconception about the role of preference negotiation, that Parties should only share preferences amongst other Parties with whom they share political common ground. I agree within limits—I’m glad that both Labor and the Coalition have always put One Nation last—but it’s a stale and counterproductive view of the voting process.
A preference deal is not a moral or political endorsement, it’s a tactical tool to try to win the votes of minor parties, and as I think we’ve established, the Greens voter base is pretty barren ground for Labor wheeling and dealing. Should any Labor state branch make a deal with FF, it’s certainly not an endorsement of their homophobia, any more than a deal with the Greens would be an endorsement of their environmentalism or social liberalism.

Liam, thanks for an interesting conversation. Yes, the Greens as a Party (I would distinguish the politicians because I think they have some very grown up ones, more than most parties that’s for sure, particularly at the federal level) is growing up. This will involve either abstaining from NSW watermelon, or at least spitting out the seeds. Nettle I think has had a rude dose recently of purity over you know, getting your representatives re-elected. I don’t think there will be a split, but I think the “beautiful losers” (to borrow Peg Putt from Tasmania’s fab phrase) are being/have been voted out of their previous roles of influence. The Greens IMHO have got a very interesting path to tread in the next 10 years – negotiating their full flowering and consolidation as a political party, but not losing their principles or self-imploding like the Democrats finally did.

Hannah, there’s been several articles run both in the Oz and the Age detailing that Labor is talking to FF ahead of the Greens, and the Greens ain’t happy. Nor should any sane ALP voter be.

Family First: Lets just say I think the how to vote card matters ( I won’t be rude and add if they can follow it).