A friend emailed me the other day: Are you going to the APEC demonstration on Saturday 8th? She, by the way, is a 46 year old mother of three. Well, I wrote back, I hadn’t been planning to.
I work in the Sydney CBD so am in line to feel the superficial impact of APEC. Like thousands of regular lunchtime walkers and runners, I won’t be able to take my exercise along the path at the north of the Botanic Gardens. Nearby streets will be enclosed in a 2.8 metre high cyclone fence. The Berlin Wall was seen as an edifice to Communist authoritarianism (and it was) - the West rejoiced when it came down. But walls and fences seem to be much in favour with the security-obsessed coalition of the willing these days. It was okay for Berliners to pull down a wall but if Sydneysiders had a go at it, we’d be “ferals” deserving of water-cannoning.
As Police Commissioner Ken Moroney said a couple of years ago, I think when we’ve got to the stage of issuing water cannons, sprays, mace and those sorts of things, in that sense we’ve really lost the plot.
Personally, I think the losing of the plot is a toss up between the water cannon and the cancellation of elective surgery. (Fortunately, my dear friend with arthritis who’s on the waiting list for a hip replacement doesn’t expect to get to the top of the list until December.)
The powers that be are going all out now to blame any disruption on the protestors (sorry, “protest mobs“) who will be “clogging” the city (funny, I’d thought APEC-security would be doing the clogging.) Or as another friend remarked yesterday, it’s an exercise in intimidation.
And I am intimidated enough to feel unenthusiastic about taking part in the protests, even though I feel passionately angry about Bush and Howard’s coalition of the unwilling-to-tackle-global-warming through their proposal to set “aspirational” goals to reduce emissions (there’s that word “aspirational” again).
While the police and protestors fiddle, Bush and Howard will agree to let the world burn.
Gee, I wonder why they’ve learnt to put up fences and have water cannons on standby these days?
Blame the lunatics who think McDonalds and Starbucks are their mortal enemies.
Tell us why, Craig. Are these protests going to involve anything different from the thousands of other protests over the years which police have managed without water cannon?
The other concerning thing I caught this morning on my way to work was that for arrested protesters there is no presumption of bail.
How’s that justified?
Might I just say, in response to your comments, Craig Mc, in the now officially approved terminology of Department of P.M. and Cabinet (PMC),“Poo bum dicky wee wee�
Actually the whole thing, when you really think about it and place in a longer and larger historical view and context is a really telling metaphor about the sort of society we are living in and becoming.
Reflect on historic precedents for this: where a mere handful of political representatives of the ruling class, and their courtiers, feel it necessary to gather behind such huge, complex, expensive, disruptive barricades and fences. Guilt, fear and lordly contempt personified here folks. A very bad look from this side of the barricade and a stupid and insulting message to keep sending the citizenry.
I smell revolution in the air. When is the next friggin’ election?
They will probably also blame any “violence” on the protesters…just like in Canada recently.
Have they managed it, suz? Every time we have one of these things shops get smashed, some cop cars get trashed, and the undergradute morons run amok. If I had serious grievances with Howard/Bush, etc., I’d hate they way they cause mayhem and make the serious dissenters look like lunatics. You feel intimidated by these security measures. Fair enough. I would, too. But I’d also recognise that it is the violent actions of an immature few that force the cops to bother with water cannons and barricades. You don’t see those things at everyday street marches, do you? And why? Because the protest kiddies, who aren’t really protesting anything in particular, don’t bother with those events ‘cos they aren’t high-profile enough.
The comparison between APEC cyclone fences and the Berlin Wall was just teensy bit over the top, by the way.
Cheers
BBB
I thought it was so they could isolate and hose down the people who were coming to meet the protestors.
Perhaps we should tell the few to fly back home again.
I’m not so sure about that. The common element is an authoritarian regime seeking to block freedoms.
They haven’t banned being on Sydney Harbour, Suz. Big mistake. I reckon we should get every boat we can lay our hands on and land at Lady Macquarie’s Chair and then gather in the Botanic Gardens, a public park remember.
We pay for it and it is our space.
Aux armes, citoyens!
If I wasn’t going to a wedding I’d be at the protests, no question about it. I mean, they’ve got a water cannon so big you need a truck to carry it! Awesome. In fact, I’m going to be really let down now if nobody gets hosed by the Mega Cannon of Doom, since it’s been built up so much.
Let me see people being hosed down the street and I’ll be a happy man. The only better thing would be if they gave the NSW police a few of these.
Me! Me! Me! Over here, officer!
Especially when someone writing the word ‘Pointless’ scares the bejeezes out of my consrvative reality.
Our politicians equip to (riot?) police with things like shields and water cannons to heighten the perception that all protesters are vile and dangerous. Its a nasty PR stunt. Listen the them verbal the “nasty protesters” too.
They need to polarise perceptions on dissent to maintain the myth that our elected representatives actually represent us, rather than the sordid fact that they nearly always vote (and speak in parliament) on party lines rather than what the people they are supposed to represent want.
Peterc, I think the people want water cannon. It’s going to be like Australia’s Funniest Home Video—Live.
Revise my earlier comment: what I’d really like to see more than a protest turned into a street waterslide would be a few socialist sects’ card tables hosed, pamphlets and brochures flying soggily through the air.
C’mon, can anyone tell me that that wouldn’t brighten up their day?
Gee, Liam, no wonder Sydney has never liked quiet little wine bars.
Yesterday on the news they had some story on how they were releasing prisoners who have periodic detention for those 2 weeks that APEC is on for to “make room for violent protestorsâ€? in teh prisons………hwo insane is that??……why are they already classified as violent protests when they haven’t even happened yet???…and also they were showing footage of other violent protests for the story, just so we could understand what will happen……….
They make me so mad!
steve, what can I say, I’m a really really sensitive guy.
suz, I was recalling the G20 thing down here in Melbourne when I wrote that. Property damaged, cop cars damaged, some clowns in masks and white overalls, etc. Like I said, an immature few ruining it for everyone else. Are you saying there’d be no prospect of violence or property damage if the cops just kept out of the way and there were no cyclone fence? That might be right, but I sure wouldn’t want to be the person who makes that call!
Kim, come on. Let’s not trivialise the East German regime by comparing the Berlin Wall to one week’s inconvenicence in the Sydney CBD.
Cheers
BBB
It must be nice to have one more chance to put the boot into the Australian people before being unceremoniously dumped from office by those same people. Enjoy it while it lasts BBB because the fun is almost over for the Conservative cheersquads.
BBB, I do think it’s worrying that governments increasingly insist on holding these talkfests and actually putting walls between themselves and the people. It actually doesn’t do anything for security. I forget what it was but when Beattie hosted a similar shindig in Brisbane a few years ago, the cops negotiated with protesters in advance to facilitate lawful protest and also minimise inconvenience to citizens. In addition, this whole thing is obviously being orchestrated in part for political reasons.
More broadly, walls and fences are becoming increasingly common. Look at the wall in Israel. Aside from the actual practicalities, it’s a very disturbing symbol.
Not very water-wise of them. Or is it really a recycled sewage cannon?
I’m sure that come the day after election night it could be donated to the Sydney fire brigade and put to a sane use.
No, no, no steve. Leaving aside the misdirected ‘conservative’ tag (you really musn’t confuse narrow neoliberalism with broad social conservatism), I can confirm for you that the fun is just beginning. We’ll get to (1) say ‘I told you so’ a million different ways when things don’t change that much, and (2) blame Rudd for everything bad that happens while denying it had anything to do with 11 or so years of Liberal Party government. You guys will have a much harder time, because you’ve got so much invested in the alternative. You’ve built it up too much. When the alternative turns out to suck (from your perspective), you’ll be very upset indeed. I mean, we’re not about to elect a Greens government, steve. It’s the ALP!
Cheers
BBB
Guess what BBB with a change of Government will come continuing protest with the only difference being that you will be on the wrong side of bothh the fence and the watercannon.
Kim,
I take your point. If violence can be avoided through negotiation, then that is clearly the better way. But if it is that easy, why hasn’t Iemma adopted Beattie’s approach to security? Is it because the NSW ALP government is more of an authoritarian regime than is Queensland’s? And why is steve determined to turn this into a Howard government exercise? I suppose we can’t be sure of the level of Federal-State co-ordination, but isn’t it fundamentally a NSW police issue? The fact that Beattie held a similar thing without water cannons and barricades strongly suggests that Howard is not calling the shots here. Suz and steve, are we now able to refer to the NSW ALP as a committed member of the ‘coalition of the willing’?
Cheers
BBB
Well, I suspect the Iemma government probably is more authoritarian than the Beattie government, but given the nature of this event, I’ve got no doubt the feds are calling the shots.
sorry long post - but gotta go out and wont be back
i agree suz
when half a million people marched in sydney against the iraq war - there were no arrests, likewise workchoices marches, these demonstrations are supported by the majority of the population who share the same opinions - and the organisation of these demonstration by unions and other more mainstream groups - have only ever spotlighted and emphasised to the public at large (and to the govt) - that there is indeed real opposition to their policies, and the effect is to show at least, that the govt is/was wrong to ignore such popular sentiment.
on the other hand - anti-globalisation marches have for years been marred by really violent and aggressive actions by a small minority - whom, it seems cannot be controlled by the organisers of the marches.. these actions have only ever legitimised what is going on in these summits.
the mayhem outside completely dominates the entire debate, and what is being agreed to inside can be conveniently ignored by the msm and the public have no idea about what is being agreed to…..and also means that far far, fewer people get involved in these issues.
what a great achievement!
the nsw govt has gone way over the top with these security measures. way over the top. but to pretend that S11/G8/ blah demonstrations haven’t been marred by violence, perpetrated by some demonstrators, and that the NSW cops are over-reacting – is just totally partisan.
if i thought for one moment, that any demo was going to be peaceful and well organised – i would attend, but there is no way iI want to be in the same company as the “i’ll trample over your rights to protect mine� loons.
which is a real shame – i would love to take my daughter and go and sit outside the opera house and listen to our own leaders and speakers put up alternative views, listen to some music, have our best comedians crack jokes about them inside.
in a smarter universe, the opera house should have been surrounded by a hundred thousand people peacefully protesting in the sydney sunshine….just before a federal election…..
now, that would have looked good on the six o’clock news.
Don’t know BBB but you have been inducted into the COW’s Hall of Fame for devotion way beyond any sense of reason.
Fair enough, Kim. What kind of event was the Queensland one, anyway?
Cheers
BBB
At the recent US-Canada-Mexico NAFTA meeting, protesters were kept at a comfortable 15 miles from the summit site! Now why can’t our taxpayer-funded security forces implement that kind of perimeter? Perhaps it’s because they decided to locate the meeting right in the frikkin’ middle of Australia’s biggest city??!?!
The NAFTA meeting was held in Montebello, about a 90-minute drive from Ottawa.
Tell me again - why did we build Canberra? Why can’t they hold these stupid meetings on taxpayer-funded aircraft carriers, or at secretive taxpayer-funded US prison gulags like the island of Diego Garcia?
My 65-year-old Mum reckons any politician who is not prepared to walk down the street without a bodyguard does not deserve to hold office.
I can’t remember, BBB, I think it may have been CHOGM or something? A few years ago now.
Anyway, I suspect all the warnings about “ferals” are trying to displace some blame away because people in Sydney must be massively pissed off about the whole thing. I read that businesses, hotels, tourism operators, etc. are all expecting massive drops in revenue too.
Kim, those CHOGM things hardly attract the ‘Arterial Blocs’ of this world, do they? Beattie was probably negotiating with perfectly reasonable protest groups. I suspect that Iemma doesn’t have that luxury. But look at me, defending an authoritarian ALP regime. Lucky the upcoming Federal election changes all that, hey steve. Oh wait…
You should have just stopped there, steve.
Cheers
BBB
Yep, Kim, the whole thing about ‘ferals’ somehow being dangerous is bizarre. Who’s the more dangerous, street clowns or football fans?
(The high jumper at the Benfica match at 0′14″ is my favourite).
Well, as other people have said, BBB, if it’s so very dangerous, why the feck hold it in the Sydney CBD?
the nsw govt has gone way over the top with these security measures. way over the top. but to pretend that S11/G8/ blah demonstrations haven’t been marred by violence, perpetrated by some demonstrators, and that the NSW cops are over-reacting – is just totally partisan.
Jo, I agree with you that some demonstrators are dedicated to actions which easily turn into violence - but I don’t think that means the NSW police (partly at the behest of other bodies) aren’t over-reacting. A preoccupation with security and its paraphernalia can be self-perpetuating. No doubt there are reps from NSW police who attend policing equipment expos where some sales rep has been talking up the merits of a water cannon for years. They want to get their hands on the latest toys - they’d welcome an opportunity to try it out. Both sides follow a script which has little to do with civil society and the right to free expression.
in a smarter universe, the opera house should have been surrounded by a hundred thousand people peacefully protesting in the sydney sunshine….just before a federal election…..
now, that would have looked good on the six o’clock news.
I couldn’t agree more.
Fair point, Kim. I don’t know what it takes to hold an APEC summit, but I suppose a city CBD is where most the required facilities are. I wonder whether the costs of holding it in a city CBD, however high, are still less than what would be spent if you wanted to hold it somehwere less densely populated. I mean, the anti-globalisation protest kiddies are going to turn up no matter where it is.
Cheers
BBB
BBB, all they need is conference facilities. There are heaps of those at island and coastal resorts. Which is why a lot of similar meetings are held in such places so as to minimise disruption from protests, etc.
For once I agree with Kim. A nice desert island with a five star hotel and access only by invitiation is exactly where all these things should be held.
Then the rest of the world can get on with their daily business - especially the local McDonalds manager.
I can’t help thinking of the wry smile on Hu Jintao’s face if any of the gweilo have the temerity to mention “human rights” or “democracy” to him. He’d just have to take a look outside …
As for those awful comparisons between this and the Berlin Wall.
Stupid. Totally stupid.
The Berlin wall was concrete wasn’t it?
Although checking wiki…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall
“Over the years, the Wall went through four distinct phases:
Basic wire fence (1961)
Improved wire fence (1962-1965)
Concrete wall (1965-1975)
Grenzmauer 75 (Border Wall 75) (1975-1989)
And of course the infamous statement that made it perfectly clear that this wasn’t going to be permanent.
“On June 15, 1961, two months before the construction of the Berlin Wall started, Ulbricht stated in an international press conference, “Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten!” (No one has the intention to set up a wall).”
Of course this wall in Sydney will only be there for the weekend. And BBB is right, using the misery of the Germans who lived through this to make a political point is not very valiant.
On the other hand it is worth pointing out that walls do not pop up over night. Neither did Germany or Russia or China or Korea turn into closed nations over night. It happened bit by bit.
Remain vigilant citizens.
… strong young male police officers punching unmasked middle aged ladies hard in the back of the head…
using the misery of the Germans who lived through this to make a political point is not very valiant.
I wasn’t ‘using their misery’. (btw I have been to east Berlin while the wall was still in existence.) I was pointing out that some of the same people who made much of how awful the regime was which built that wall, now seem to be in favour of walls. Did you know, for example, that the US has proposed a wall be built in Baghdad? (It’s unclear how much of that wall has been built.)
People in the security and military industries obviously share ideas.
Of course this wall in Sydney will only be there for the weekend.
No, for most of a week, in one form or another.
By the way, protest defenders, remind me when did the last massive protest in a Western democracy actually make a difference? Iraq War: nope. Aboriginal reconciliation? Not really. G20? Gave you all a lot of bad PR.
Seems to me it’s got nothing to do with actual political change - you’ve got the ballot box and other lobbying methods for that.
The only benefit I can see is that it makes you feel good that there are other people who are unhappy with something-or-other, just like you. The idea that it “sends a message” that any politician pays particular attention to, well recent history doesn’t indicate that this is at all plausible.
Well the thought of a protest sends you into a lather of panic and handwringing Steve of Brisbane, so what would make you think that any other tories are any different. You wouldn’t have to type a single letter on the subject if you were truly as unaffected as you would have us believe.
If Howard didn’t believe they are sending a powerful message then he would have held the APEC meeting outside of a capital city wouldn’t he. The opposite of your wild claim is true. Howard knows that timid little souls fear the power of protests and will run to him for protection and then support him on election day. In normal times it would work but now saner people are seeing through his petty political stunts.
Here’s a newsflash - on the net of course - most big demo’s these days run on the principle of ‘diversity-of-tactics’. This means that as nothing short of STASI like police-state methods will reign in the few, the proud and the insane anarchists that they are tolerated. Any harm they do to PR is more than balanced by the global publicity they garner. The internet changes everything. We can catapult the propaganda and rinse/repeat at every big crapitalist conflab.
The filthy swine in power never needed any excuses to act like fascists anyway so don’t be their useful idiot and buy into their divide-and-rule tactic. DoT strategy appreciates the intelligent synergies made available by the netbased combination of a vast pacific majority enlivened by the addition of a Black bloc or three.
There is no alternative to DoT short of reproducing the disasters of authoritarian-socialism 1918-2008
Just remember when you see APEC in full flight that it was bought to Sydney at Howard’s invitation to suit his agenda, with him being the creator, agenda setter, main character and chief beneficiary of the event. Reward him at the ballot box by taking a stand and voting against him at the next Federal election as that is not the best thing for this country’s future.
Please tell me as most of the globe is covered by water and there are big warships everywhere, why was Sydney chosen?
the water cannon is the dead giveaway. We are talking about men with little weenies, microscopic weenies that have driven them mad with Cronos-like envy, power-lust, and orgasmic fervour.
And we all know (well those who study history) know what happens to men like this. They get devoured and regurgitated by history as object lessons in futile destructive hubris.
That’s the truth of it PR but the way Howard has been going this year the likelihood is that the PR he craves will bite him on the bum rather than be the success he fanticises about. A globally embarrassed Howard is a sight to behold.
Police have announced even more powers in case they need to make mass arrests during APEC.
That statement about middle aged ladies copping in the back of the head..hasnt as yet got a response..are you there somewhere middle aged lady..did you complain!?Where exactly did it happen..any witnesses that arent petrified of courts and cross-examination!?And what if the N.S.W. Police allow the water cannon to be used to raise funds for causes protestors agree with after the APEC Meeting.After all it is just a lousy tool to an end,that could be put to other uses!? First stop alternative technology coursework dealing with effective water pressure as water filtration. Mix the water with highly volatile liquids and flush building materials and what have you got!? No technical details,historical and comparative details have been found at this site to speculate on other potential uses.
A word from the APEC sponsors
Iemma will be relishing the opportunity to have some ferals arrested or injured, I’m sure of that. It will turn into a spectacle of violent repression if they manage to coax a few anarchists into dancing the dance with them. I have no illusions about NSW Labor.
Also, I don’t think it’s an ‘anti-globalisation’ agenda, strictly speaking that motivates these protesters. It’s about ascendant neoliberalism.
“BBB, all they need is conference facilities. There are heaps of those at island and coastal resorts. Which is why a lot of similar meetings are held in such places so as to minimise disruption from protests, etc.”
This won’t work any better than 2 aussies holding their wedding in Thailand to try and use the expense of travelling to keep guest numbers down.
Protesting against APEC gatherings or using them as an excuse would be a great way to have an exotic holiday and a bit of argy bargy as well.
Steve, to the extent that any “tories” “wring their hands” over protests, it is hardly due to the proposition that world leaders will suddenly realise that George W Bush is unpopular, many people think the Iraq intervention was a mistake, and that global warming is on a lot of people’s minds.
It is due to concern over damage being caused to innocent parties’ private property, security issues, and the actual likely intention of some of the protesters to want to stop world leaders from a harmless meeting.
The point of my post was that the “power of protest” was (with very rare exceptions) an illusion, other than as a “feel good” exercise for the protesters. I can’t see that you have answered that at all.
SATP is right. There might be some protests that changed something, but I’m struggling to remember one. I remember weaving through the WorkCover rally in ‘92 to get to (the incredibly depressing) 1 Treasury Place. Achieved SFA. Everyone was impressed at the time of course.
The Vietnam Moritorium? That might be the only successful candidate in my lifetime, and it’s highly debatable whether it was the cause or effect of a political movement. I’d lean towards the latter myself.
I think the cannon and wall is really just more of Howard and Australia aping America.
I was in New York over a decade ago when a presidential motorcade came from JFK airport to the UN. Talk about a palaver - cops, bikes, guns, barricades, secret service and about 30 cars. What a load of nonsense I thought at the time, and what a huge disruption to a very busy city like New York. All so the Big Cheese could pay a visit to a workplace.
I think its mostly chest thumping. And having whipped up some racist sentiments and fear of terrorism in Sydney, maybe a few chickens are coming home to roost for JWH. The chickens will now have their feathers blasted off with non-recycled scarce water.
I think you might be taking a bit of liberty with the English language there. More like a poisonous meeting, of poisonous people set up with poisonous intent to achieve poisonous results would be nearer a description of it. Just keep away from it and all who organised it Steve from Brisbane and you and your property will remain undamaged.
Some say extremely so, does that make you a moderately left of right then Craig Mc. if points of agreement with him are created?
I wonder if Howard has ordered the Canadian tactics to be used in Sydney to ensure prime air time for himself on National and international Teev?
Jo’s point that she wont be going because she’s concerned that violent actions of a few will undermine the point of the protest - well I’d argue strenously against. Jo, the only way to make the point that peaceful protest has a role, a reason, & that to protest is a right not a privilege, is to actually do it.
To be intimidated by either the loopy or the threats from governments is to validate the notion that protest has no place in this post 9/11world. As someone else commented, the Daily Tele type depiction of any protests will only be about the violent & fringe, not the doctors’ wives, the north shore matrons, the possibility of 100 000 as per anti-Irag War protest. To be there is to help stop the perpetuation of the myth of violent protest, to witness for yourself what actually occurs, to record for others, and to validate your right to protest the actions of government & big business.
Well Steve, I suppose the unfortunate shop keepers have the ability to up and move the building out of your path then? I think you’ve said more than enough to help ensure some of the more reasonable readers don’t join you in the protest.
Jo, the only way to make the point that peaceful protest has a role, a reason, & that to protest is a right not a privilege, is to actually do it.
There are plenty of ways to peacefully protest - write letters, boycott, make petitions. Attending a mass protest, however, is the most questionable of these: it’s just a step away from mass violence. Whereas many people would be content with a demonstration of political interest, and with an ongoing say in the democratic process, a gathering of people en masse is something quite different: it’s a demonstration of power. Also, a protest by its very nature does away with many of the finer points of political dialogue. You can’t really ask questions, or urge people to act: you have to ‘make demands’ and ’cause change’. The protesters are engaging in power politics, not the politics of conciliation or dialogue.
To this day, the rhetoric of violence and warfare is used cheerfully by many politically active people. For instance, some common phrases are ‘Class war!’ ‘Fuck the state’! ‘Roll on the revolution!’: there are many more. Again, it’s only in a mass protest that these metaphors of violence find a chance for a physical outlet.
So I don’t think it’s simply that people who go to a protest become complicit with the few anarchists and violent protesters who really do go about smashing windows, etc. There are indeed many peaceful protesters with genuine concerns about the economy, politics, and so on. But the agreement to protest en masse is often, (whether knowingly or unknowingly), an agreement to privilege political power over political dialogue.
I don’t recall trouble with protestors when the APEC was held in CBD Hanoi.
Gee, wonder why not?
Tigtog
You were doing well until you had to destroy it with your Godwinesque Berlin Wall garbage. Talk about total insensitivity to the tens of millions who had to endure the actual evil of Communism.
That off my chest. If these security arrangements are necessary in these days of global Islamist terrorism, then Australia must Just Say No from now on. Hold these things in Las Vegas, Macau, or Patpong Road for all I care.
Won’t be there myself, but I won’t be hiding under my bed waiting for Howard to triumphantly save me from the dreaded protesters in Sydney. Nor will I be taking the bait that this will somehow translate into a reason why he should not be voted out come the election.
I look forward to your fear filled bleatings while the event is on though - should be fun. Please ring a bell and flash a light when you finally come to the conclusion that all the hype was a load of right wing reactionary rubbish that never amounted to anything so we can all get to enjoy the fruits of your scare campaign.
Oops, that was for suz, not tigtog. I get them mixed up.
PeterC
Dude, you have the chain of causation the wrong way round. It is hoi polloi who already hold these views, and demand the state take action accordingly.
And a widely held misconception it is. But nowhere near as bad as trying to twist our arm up behind our back and try to convince us that the demonstrators some how set and run the agenda at these international circuses. They are tightly controlled and planned down to the individual minute and little if anything is left to chance.
Here’s an APEC activity for those who don’t feel up to demonstrating:
* PEOPLE’S APEC FESTIVAL: Friday 7 September, 11.00am-2.00pm at Hyde
Park north, with performances, speakers, information and food stalls.
For Fair Trade not Free Trade, nuclear-free, peaceful and democratic
Asia-Pacific. Information: phone Peter 0418 312 301 or web.
There are plenty of ways to peacefully protest - write letters, boycott, make petitions. Attending a mass protest, however, is the most questionable of these: it’s just a step away from mass violence.
Not necessarily. You’re buying into the idea of ‘the masses’ as a pejorative. I’ve been on many mass protests - 100,000 people or more - which have remained non-violent.
Whereas many people would be content with a demonstration of political interest, and with an ongoing say in the democratic process, a gathering of people en masse is something quite different: it’s a demonstration of power.
And what’s wrong with that? Sometimes gathering in the street with other people is the only way to express your position - the majority of people are shut out from the mass media and despite majority opinion on something like the invasion of Iraq, the government went ahead and committed Australian troops. Deeply frustrating, but at times like that, at least demonstrators conveyed their opinion - if not to the Howard government, then to other people around the world,including in Iraq.
Also, a protest by its very nature does away with many of the finer points of political dialogue. You can’t really ask questions, or urge people to act: you have to ‘make demands’ and ’cause change’.
You obviously haven’t been to events like the Walk Against Warming where many protestors carry handmade original signs which make very fine points.
The Vietnam Moratorium? That might be the only successful candidate in my lifetime, and it’s highly debatable whether it was the cause or effect of a political movement.
Both.
Not necessarily. You’re buying into the idea of ‘the masses’ as a pejorative.
No, just pointing out that a mass protest is a demonstration of physical strength.
And what’s wrong with that?
Because gradual change through dialogue and consent is preferable to forced change through power. Power is a tool of the authoritarian; dialogue and consent is not. (Incidentally, this is possibly the principle point on which we disagree: I do not believe that any and every relationship is a relationship that can be and should be defined in terms of ‘power’. The end to which many protests seem to be working is the granting of privilege and power to a certain minority over another minority that is already in power - if that makes sense. Usually, this end seems quite morally dubious.)
Sometimes gathering in the street with other people is the only way to express your position
Not really applicable to any modern democracy, where there are plenty of forums to express yourself, and plenty of like-minded people to form communities with.
- the majority of people are shut out from the mass media
Not really, it relies on the good will of viewers and readers and audiences to continue, and forums for feedback are popular in all mediums.
and despite majority opinion on something like the invasion of Iraq, the government went ahead and committed Australian troops. Deeply frustrating, but at times like that, at least demonstrators conveyed their opinion - if not to the Howard government, then to other people around the world,including in Iraq.
Indeed it must have been frustrating for many, but there were always more ways than demonstrations for people to express their opinions and frustrations. The principle difference, as I argued before, between mass protests and other forms of personal protest, is that it is a physical demonstration of power.
You obviously haven’t been to events like the Walk Against Warming where many protestors carry handmade original signs which make very fine points.
Yes, but the nature of demonstrations is such that they will always privilege demands over finely-argued points. You can’t fit a dissertation onto a protest sign, no matter how small your print is.
I’ve known many people who have taken part in protests and by and large they have respectable and honourable reasons for doing so, but I remain unconvinced that the gesture is worthwhile.
Mr Barnacle, I presume?
The trouble is Tim T, that differing authoritarianism requires differing degrees of public pressure for change to occur. While Kevin Andrews weak spot is being too arrogant and silly to obey the law and apply it as one would expect a minister to do. A series of court cases will be the bane of his life but anything less would be ineffective.
With Howard, change only comes with his right wing rabble standing up to him or a loss on election night. He is too cunning to allow Barnaby Joyce’s threats of crossing the floor to sway him. As evidenced by his outmaneuvering of Meg Lees to introduce the GST, he will apply pressure to the weakest link of an argument to get his own way. Protests don’t even touch the sides with him because he has adopted the practice of avoiding protesters for years but only deals with protesters through the media.
With someone like Bjelke Petersen, the Shah of Iran or Fernando Marcos it is clear that dialogue and consent were never going to be a part of their response and mass protest was the most effective form of communicating because of their innate hatred and despising of the right to free speech or the right of assembly but their determination to take on demonstrators front on eventually puts them in a position where they become a laughing stock.
Tim T, I doubt whether your simplistic anti mass protest stance is much help because it makes no allowance for the Governing style of the politician who is the cause of the demonstration. Furthermore there have been actual court cases that progress the implied right of free speech and assembly further than your attitude does.
Politically, the Vietnam Moratoria were irrelevant to Australia’s role in Vietnam. The Libs had already withdrawn many Australian troops and they certainly weren’t about to send more to SE Asia in the foreseeable future.
Pig-headedly, however, the Libs refused to do anything about conscription, which was the WorkChoices of its day, i.e., a sure-fire loser for the Tories.
The ALP was very ambivalent about the Moratoria because they wanted to be a “small target” on that issue. There were some honourable exceptions to that generalisation.
But the Moratoria were important for more profound reasons than merely the stated issue of Vietnam. The Moratoria served as a moment when a diversity of groups formed, found common purpose over Vietnam, but then went on to formulate their own programs and platforms. The broad, cultural left found itself and each other over Vietnam. Ever since the Right has been complaining about the cultural hegemony that arose out of that moment, so something must have worked.
The right eventually learned the new politics of the wedge and the dog whistle. They became quite adaptive. Ironically, in political terms, they learned their cultural guerrilla tactics from the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong — that is, to avoid a frontal attack on a more powerful enemy.
And another thing Tim T there aren’t a lot of legal rights in Australia with regard to free speech or free association. I’d have thought working to improve the situation might have been a better option than arguing against the few rights that do begrudgingly exist.
Damn, the above was from Katz.
I mean the one from EV, not Steve. Sorry.
The Berlin wall was constructed to stem the flow of humans from the tragedy of communism.
The wall was built to keep caged, under pain of death, people who were then subjected to privations the like of which I hope the world never sees again.
The few km of temporary fence is not comparable in ANY way to the Berlin wall. It is there to curb the wildest excesses of a rabble intent upon causing chaos and destroying property.
To seriously suggest there is a similarity (of any sort) with what people were subjected to behind the iron curtain, suggests not hubris, but crass ignorance or certifiable lunacy.
Or maybe to give SATP a reason to vote for his hero because he has made him feel comfortable and relaxed.
Anyway, SATP I have just heard your Dear Leader reading from your Liberal Party speaking points on SBS News so you could have saved yourself the trouble of typing the notes on LP.
What a paradox, to demonstrate our great free society and strength of our democracy we fence of the governors from the governed. Why then not hold the meetings on a secure Pacific island like Naru! Which monkeys should be in the cage.