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This thread has suffered from a tone that some people are more empathetic/smarter/less racist because of their language skills.

No. That’s not been argued at all. Who has been arguing that language skills make people racist or not, and where?

The argument is that attempting to use someone’s name (even when it is difficult) is more respectful than not trying.

My original post states that the MSM is using pumpkin because they believe (whether it is true or not) that people will be more emotionally involved with ‘pumpkin’ than ‘Qian Xun Xue’.

Hell, I have my heart-strings pulled by ‘pumpkin’ more-so than ‘Qian Xun Xue’, precisly because I identify more strongly with the cute term of affection over the girls ACTUAL name.

Where in that is anyone being accused of racism because of their language skills? It’s not whether you can say Qian Xun Xue very well or not, it’s whether you even bother to try.

I’m sorry, but it annoys the hell out of me when arguments that have been laid down very clearly and concisely are reduced to such a racist/not-racist simplistic manner.

But I like having my hand on it.

It doesn’t make any difference how it started (I am sure you wouldn’t excuse the use of a term directed at other groups because of the original context). This thread has suffered from a tone that some people are more empathetic/smarter/less racist because of their language skills. People who are described as “rednecks” are regarded as none of those things. Consistency is the thing, unless you think all poor folks are stupid, insensitive and bigots.

please explain to me what I have done to deserve this outburst from Kim.

It’s not an outburst, GregM. You’ve kind of been acting like a sanctimonious d1ck, and Kim pulled you up on it.

But you live in a rich country. You can hold any opinion you like and force them on others without a thought of the consequences. Unfortunately they have to live with them.

I know you’re a nice guy, but you need to give this kind of pointless breatbeating a rest. I’ve been at the receiving end of it before (and I note that you were very good about it and apologised afterwards).

anthony: (and Mark and Jobby, too, sorry for getting sharp with you) Hmm, I can see that the way my earlier remark was phrased, being a little too aggressive and tart, would cause annoyance.

Cheers j_p_z. Thanks for acknowledging the mistake.

I understand your point of view. And I’ve lived with a number of Chinese students who’ve chosen anglo names solely to make it easier for themselves (some of these were actually pretty funny, there were twin girls that called themselves ‘Peppermint’ and ‘Coke’).

My point is that, in daily life at least, just the simple attempt to say someone’s (difficult) name denotes a lot more respect than not trying. The only time anyone really gets riled up is if they’re given a condescending nickname (in primary school it was ‘Charlie Chan’ or ‘Bruce Lee’). But a real nickname is very inclusive.

But as Graham Bell said above, “The mishandling of unfamiliar names in the formal setting of news media, on the other hand, is completely inexcusable.”

Just to clarify, I put the definition of “redneckâ€? up because it’s a tad hypocritical of people …

Darlene, get your hand off it. J_P_Z was called a redneck because he said (to paraphrase): ‘If these funny named foreigners refuse to be anglicised then they can go back to where they came from’ (a position he has since retracted and stated that he was misunderstood because his comments were heavyhanded).

“Excuse me while I giggle. But anyone who has ever had anything to do with a collective, or been a member of one, knows perfectly well, unless none of their physical senses are operational, that there is always a kingpin, or two, in a collective, who are invariably male, except in all female collectives, which this one is far from being, but the main point stands.”

Males in a collective? Queenpins in a collective are difficult enough. Please use meeting procedure, people.

“I strongly suspect that Mark does not, like some jaded royal vizier, ‘look over these pages’ monotoring his female handmaidens like Kim! How freaking ridiculous!!! LOL!”

Crikey, a handmaiden? I can’t even sew.

Lynda Hopgood [11:38am 20thSept]:

Yeah. That’s pretty close …. “Ch’ien Hsun Hsueh� for the Old Believers who still use Wade-Giles orthography
Graham Bell

It’s sort of close-ish, Graham. For example, ‘ch’ in English can be pronounced in a number of ways without changing its meaning. Specifically, the position of the tongue (at the front, middle, or back of the mouth) isn’t particularly important, most people would regard any difference as just regional accent variations on the same basic phonetic unit.

But in Mandarin it makes a big difference. Think of how different the (Pinyin) pronounciations of ‘j’, ‘t’, ‘q’, ‘ch’, ‘x’, ’sh’, and ‘zh’ are to a Mandarin speaker, yet how difficult they are to both pronounce and distinguish for a (non-Mandarin speaking) native English speaker.

Like I said before, there really aren’t direct phonetic equivalents for many Mandarin sounds in standard English.

And there’s a good reason the Wade-Giles system went out of fashion. Pinyin is much more functional.

Hey Greg M, this is a collective dude

Excuse me while I giggle. But anyone who has ever had anything to do with a collective, or been a member of one, knows perfectly well, unless none of their physical senses are operational, that there is always a kingpin, or two, in a collective, who are invariably male, except in all female collectives, which this one is far from being, but the main point stands.

Personally I’m suspicious of the absolute in human affairs; things should rarely be absolutely x, it’s usually preferable to say there should be a strong tendency towards x, whilst keeping y in mind, and considering that sometimes q is what’s called for. So it is in these matters of culture and names.

All the same, some practices have smoother outcomes than others. It matters where you are, and what your standing is when you’re there. If I go to China and meet with a businessman named Fat-wong, I have a strict obligation to keep my amusement to myself and behave soberly; it’s a regular Chinese name in China, end of story. But if Fat-wong immigrates to an English-speaking country, while he’s certainly entitled to keep his name as it is, it’s still not very sporting or helpful for him to spend the rest of his life seething and calling people ignorant racists every time they giggle. It’s a different country, he made the decision to move there, guess what, places outside of China are not China.

People used to have (or at least in my experience they did) a practical common-sense approach to most of these things. Multiculturalist values reversed a lot of those polarities; foolishly, I believe. It wouldn’t matter all that much if immigration were a rare and occasional thing, but in an age of mass immigration it’s potentially calamitous. People generally have a human tendency to do what’s easiest and what they can get away with. If you make it too easy for them to keep their old ways and remain incomprehensible to the mainstream, then more and more of them will choose that option, with fairly predictable results.

There’s a great question-and-answer bit in The Mahabharata:
“What is never noticed until after it has departed?”
“Health.”
The same might be said of cultural cohesion, and we might miss it when it’s gone.

Yeah. That’s pretty close …. “Ch’ien Hsun Hsueh” for the Old Believers who still use Wade-Giles orthography; mind you, it’s a bit different in G.R., or in the old Post Office romanization.

Hey, hang on. Somebody mentioned the possibility that the surname and the personal name have already been transposed. That happens all the time to Japanese and to Hungarian names in the Australian news? media. If that’s the case, the kid might then be XUE Qianxun or “Hsueh Ch’ien-hsun” …. or “Shweh Chyen Shwoon” if you like.

Kim:
Let’s hope that even on Larvatus Prodeo, good old racist Aussie-bashing doesn’t try rearing its ugly head again. Otherwise, I’ll just have to have a chunder, hitch my pants up to my beer-belly, pick up my dole, see if I can find any koons and poofs to bash then get to the pub before the f***n’ slopes get on all the best pokie machines …. In fact, a LOT of native-born English-speaking Aussies do pronounce non-”Anglo” names accurately once they have heard it spoken correctly several times. The old-fashioned custom of giving workmates and neighbours familiar and usually informal Enlish names [and nicknames] was neither racist nor ignorant but a universal way of being INCLUSIVE towards the newcomer. The mishandling of unfamiliar names in the formal setting of news media, on the other hand, is completely inexcusable.

I strongly suspect that Mark does not, like some jaded royal vizier, ‘look over these pages’ monotoring his female handmaidens like Kim!

Then you have not read LP for any length of time.

I dont know about pumpkins, but I tell you some mushrooms have been haunting this site in recent days…..

Hmmm this job thing, never heard of it. Oh wait I have.

To do that you need to learn English that will be understood by Japanese, by Koreans, by Singaporeans, by Norwegians and by Brazilians and on and on. That is what standard English is.

Read this you dickbrain. This is an email I got from a friend of mine tonight.

Dear Greg,

Hello, how are you doing? The purpose of my writting is ask you to do me a favor. I am going to apply for a position as a Client Service Officer at the Australian Embassy. I need your help to write a statement selection critiria, which they required, to include with my CV. It would be helpful if you are available and prepare it for me.

Frizz is going to close in the January 1st, 2008. I must get a job in advanced, that I can pay my school fee and for my daily expenses.

I will attach my CV along with the Ad to you.

I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Poun,

Poun makes a hundred dollars a month in Frizz restaurant. He has sent me five follow up emails

So what are you going to do? Pontificate again?

Pointless, like the last time you raised this line of argument, GregM. By that token, because you’re presumably “in a rich countryâ€?, we shouldn’t pay any attention to anything you say either. And how do you know where I’ve lived? (hint – not just in Australia and the US)…

In fact, perhaps as soon as you start discussing what “you� about “people like [us]� we may as well stop listening anyway.

And how do you know where anthony has lived and what his professional experience is? If you asked, you might find out that it’s relevant.

Kim, grow up.

Mark, since you watch for these things, please explain to me what I have done to deserve this outburst from Kim.

Perhaps then you might drop your references to “people like you” since you can see the error of tarring people with the same brush.

I hope you understand.