Are fighter radars really good enough to do that? Buggered if I know - but it seems a little strange and I’d like to know more.

My understanding is aircraft send out an encrypted signal and offensive units pick up the signal and decide whether it is friend or foe.

I remember American Patriot missiles in the Iraq war in 2003 shot down a few friendly cruise missiles, and (I think) a British Tornado fighter jet because the missiles incorrectly identified friendly missiles and that jet as being the enemy.

Coalition forces suffered their first confirmed “friendly fire” deaths of the Iraq war yesterday, when a U.S. Patriot missile battery downed a British fighter jet near the Iraqi-Kuwait border, killing the two fliers on board.

Military analysts said the downing was rare, since the Royal Air Force Tornado GR4 would have been outfitted with a transponder - an electronic signal device identifying itself as a coalition military aircraft.

source

Anyway, the story of how we hacked the yanks here for F18 IFF and look down radar crypto should be at the very least a nice little 5000 insider blog post. If we had the antipodian equivalent of Defence Tech or Danger Room. Looking at you here Robert Merkel.

If anybody knows any insiders, happy to be put in touch

Thinking about what Tony was saying, I’m surprised by one thing: he is implying that the F-18 radar (APG-65/73) could itself distinguish between different types of aircraft, and the combat system would accordingly characterise targets as friend or foe. Are fighter radars really good enough to do that? Buggered if I know - but it seems a little strange and I’d like to know more.

As to your New Zealand excursion - “The local talent is easy … A massive fuckpot of sheep!”. That says it all really. A line from Apocalypse Now comes to mind: “He’s out there operating without any decent restraint, totally beyond the pale of any acceptable human conduct.”

By the way, if I may be so bold, you a gamer by any chance? As in wargames. You have the classic combination of military history + black sense of humour + incipient alcoholism = wargamer.

Very well. I will now pace around in circles, swilling whisky and counting my feet while playing Magazine’s “A Song From Under The Floorboards” VERY LOUDLY!

And why isn’t Kim putting up hot pinups anymore?

Now I come to think of it, where is the wench these days?

And perhaps also perhaps an awareness that modern IFF systems are slightly more situationally aware than just blipping a transponder smodged into a Cessna 162.

Nabs, the issue wasn’t identifying whether contacts were friendly or hostile, which is what IFF does.

It was that the combat systems, based on the radars, would not correctly distinguish between friendly and hostile aircraft, thus hindering the use of those systems to engage and attack hostile aircraft, if that was every necessary.

It’s hard for me to contradict you if you do it first.

Radar can tell you what is coming at you but it can’t tell you its motives. Hence the invention of IFF.

It was that the combat systems, based on the radars, would not correctly distinguish between friendly and hostile aircraft, thus hindering the use of those systems to engage and attack hostile aircraft, if that was every necessary.

Yes, you’re right that F-14s are not leading edge these days, but they are still pretty fierce aircraft. My point was that export versions of American fighters can be turned against America, so it’s reasonable for America to de-tune them.

Paulus, yes, the process was electronic, not human intelligence. I forget whether Beazley’s words conveyed that meaning.

The sad story of New Zealand’s Skyhawks is that they spent the end of their years as targets anyway, because they were too slow for any serious role. They were used to give gunnery practice to Australian warships. Huge embarrassment for any fighter jock.

Peter Jackson pretty much nailed it with his 1987 documentary on a top secret New Zealand special forces unit.

Yes Paulus indeed, and less distanced from the truth than you’d think.

Just spent just over a week, eating and drinking and yo hoo hooing through the North Island of NZ last month.

My observations are:
- Damn, there’s some great white wine action happening out of Hawkes Bay.
- NZ cop cars have the weirdest colour scheme.
- Everyone in NZ will be a Maori, either in bloodline and/or spirit, within the next 30 years.
And that includes all the Chinese in Auckland.
- Those fluffy little lambs gambolling in a surrealistically perfect picture postcard landscape taste delicious.
- The Masonic Hotel in Napier has to be stayed in to be believed in. Think of an smaller but perfectly formed major art deco riff on “the Shining”’s Overlook Hotel.
- The local talent is easy. Especially when you ask them to count up to “six/sex’ at a hot local venue billed as a Melbourne style bar.
- The country op-shops are even easier. A first hard back editon of ‘Biggles: Pioneer Airfighter” for only NZ$10. Tattered endpapers and rather foxed though.
- Did I mention the food and wine is excellent?
- Apparently the way to show yer really cool on K’road in Auckland is to mention some connection to Peter Jackson’s Weta Studios - in Wellington.
- Don’t bother getting hammered on NZ’s very interesting experiment in single malt whisky from Milford Sound and then charging into the Beehive, brandishing your MasterCard and demanding to buy a mothballed Douglas A3 Skyhawk. They just won’t sell you one. And that’s that.
- Not much wildlife in NZ. A week plus driving saw less roadkill than a dirty weekend in Tasmania or down the Great Ocean Road. A massive fuckpot of sheep though. Lotsa sheep. Really. Fuckin’ heaps of sheep.

“The PLA would first have to get through several million orcs, Maori biker gangs, the NZ Army’s elite Special Bungee Jumping Forces and 40 million kamikaze sheep.”

“One thing the Chinese hadn’t counted on was Derek, and Dereks don’t run!”

Peter Jackson pretty much nailed it with his 1987 documentary on a top secret New Zealand special forces unit.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092610/

5000 insider blog post

I meant “5000 word insider blog post”

For want of a noun the comment was lost, etc, etc.

including F-16s, Skyhawks and Broncos, which were identified as friendly by Hornet radars. We wanted those types to be flagged as hostiles.

Friend or foe aircraft are not flagged by radar signiture but by IFF.

Iran, for example, flies top line American F-14 fighters that were provided to the previous regime.

No, Iran’s got fourth generation fighters rusting and rotting in bunkers for lack of spares and serious flight combat training time. No air force anywhere can possibly match the USAF anymore in a straight one on one air to air fight. The problem here is battles may be won in the air but wars are always won the ground. And since Viet Nam, the defination of victory for anything involving the US empire has become a completely moveable feast. On all sides.

unless there were some need for an ASIO or ASIS officer to have access to F-18 radar codes (and what on earth could that need be?)

Was about to make exactly the same point, ‘cept Paulus did it first sharper and clearer without any unnecessary snark about Stephen Lloyd talking through his arse.

… it was excellent work by DSTO to determine the missing type signatures.

And don’t forget the DSD. Bet they were feeding some juicy leaky yanky elint droppings and general comms stuff from Kangaroo Nine Inch Gold Blade 06′ or whatever to the DSTO too.

Anyway, the story of how we hacked the yanks here for F18 IFF and look down radar crypto should be at the very least a nice little 5000 insider blog post. If we had the antipodian equivalent of Defence Tech or Danger Room. Looking at you here Robert Merkel.

Shed no tears for the Southern Ocean Twin Islands Earmarked for Golf Courses and Private Estates (currently known to foreign ghosts as “New Zealand�).

Oh yeah? The PLA would first have to get through several million orcs, Maori biker gangs, the NZ Army’s elite Special Bungee Jumping Forces and 40 million kamikaze sheep.

Plus those 17 Skyhawks are still mothballed away somewhere. Only be a week’s work for Shagger, Gazza and the rest of the mob at South Auckland Auto Repairs to have ‘em up and flying again.

… it was excellent work by DSTO to determine the missing type signatures.

So it was some sort of ELINT technique then, and not really “spying” per se? Beasley was evidently being a bit melodramatic in his choice of words.

Stephen, you’re getting a touch carried away methinks. There have been public allegations about one ASIO officer being in the pay of the KGB (there was a 4 Corners episode on the subject, if I recall correctly). Nothing publicly about any ASIS officers being suborned.

Whatever the truth is, it’s irrelevant to the question here. Information is compartmentalised: unless there were some need for an ASIO or ASIS officer to have access to F-18 radar codes (and what on earth could that need be?), they wouldn’t have access.

As to Australia being a soft touch for Russian intelligence, there have been way more publicly exposed and convicted Russian spies in the US and Britain than in this country. I’d actually suggest we were more secure than the Yanks, not less.

Shed no tears for the Southern Ocean Twin Islands Earmarked for Golf Courses and Private Estates (currently known to foreign ghosts as “New Zealand”). These islands have a splendid future to look forward to… unlike, one might say, the Southern Ocean Mining and Re-settlement Land-Mass.

Australia’s problem arose because Indonesia at the time flew several American aircraft types, including F-16s, Skyhawks and Broncos, which were identified as friendly by Hornet radars. We wanted those types to be flagged as hostiles.

Fair enough. Wonder what would have happened if we had have flown joint operations with the New Zealand Air Force (which, before it dumped any fixed-wing combat capability, flew Skyhawks?)

From the 50’s to the late 90’s the US didn’t trust our secret service to keep secrets safe from espionage.

Having demonstrated to a stunned and admiring world intelligence community just how capable their own secret services were at keeping secrets.

Not.

With respect to the F/A-18 combat systems, the missing data would make exported F/A-18s that much more dangerous if they were ever used against American forces. Iran, for example, flies top line American F-14 fighters that were provided to the previous regime.

So America, quite reasonably, tries to keep exported fighters and radars a little less capable than their own versions.

Australia’s problem arose because Indonesia at the time flew several American aircraft types, including F-16s, Skyhawks and Broncos, which were identified as friendly by Hornet radars. We wanted those types to be flagged as hostiles.

This complication would not have stopped F/A-18s firing at those aircraft. It just meant the pilots had to override some warnings. Also, in fast manouvering close combat, it would have deprived pilots of some of the value of automatic tracking of threats.

Nevertheless, it was poor purchasing not to check that the combat systems could be adjusted to our region, and it was excellent work by DSTO to determine the missing type signatures.

Even if we personally handed Osama bin Laden the complete blueprints and source code to, say, the Joint Strike Fighter or the Air Warfare Destroyers, the only use they’d have for it is to trade it to an advanced nation-state for money or weapons.

The KGB, by contrast, actively sought such information and often put it to good use (though they spent more money reverse engineering the IBM 360 Series than IBM spent developing it…).