An open thread where, at your weekend leisure, you can discuss anything you like.
[Except federal election stuff which should go here.]
77 Responses to “Saturday Salon”
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Frits. Mmmm.
Or perhaps that should be fritz, for the South Australians among us.
3rd.
4th, and don’t get me started on fritz and sauce… oh scheiße, now I’ll have to run down the deli for a Farmer’s Union Iced Coffee!
(Which begs the question: now that Uncle Joe has declared the war against unions ‘won’, is he now going to declare war on Farmer’s Union Ice Coffee? For the sake of Australia - especially the bit prefixed South - stand up and defend your right to drink decent flavoured milk!)
Know the way I feel tonight
(ooh-yay-yay-yay-yeah)
Only the p’lony
(dum-dum-dum-dumdy-doo-wah)
Just watched Letters from Iwo Jima. Most rehumanising drama since Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. Really quite extraordinary.
I am off to the pub for the second time this afternoon. Yay! Hooray for English ales (boo to English Rugby).
Everyone:
8, otto, acht, os’m. ba, hachi, BOCEMb, any number between seven and nine.
Mark Bahnisch:
A year or so back, I asked you who was Fyodor. Finally came across Fyodor over at Club Troppo in the past week or so; articulate and intelligent, of course, but, well, yes …. it takes all sorts, I suppose.
My curiousity has now moved on ….
Alex on a Bus:
My oath! All together now … The People’s Flag is deepest red, a-stained with our martyred dead ….
Anthony:
I prefer rollicking good comedy [Carry On Mk.I ~ Mk.LXXVIII] and sharp satire [The Man Who Sued God, etc.] to Hollywood’s sick perverted stylized glorification of war [see Darlene’s film topic on LP a fortnight or so back] …. however, on your recommendation, I shall try to see Letters From Iwo Jima.
Anthony,
I watched Letters from Iwo Jima and Eastward’s film about the Americans who put up ther flag on Iwo Jima one after the other at one sitting recently.
I absolutely agree with your assessment of the movie.
Eastwood is surely one of the best directors of integrity working anywhere in the world today and always a delight to watch. Nor does he shy from depicting confronting truths.
AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!
It raises the question, not begs it. Common misuse of the phrase, I know, and becoming more so, but “begging the question” does not mean “begging for the question”, as “question” in this phrase means “the topic being debated” not some other question entirely.
The Phrase Finder
Beg The Question
alt.usage.english FAQ excerpt
And now, I bid you adieu as I ride off to tilt at those windmills in the distance.
Comrade Bell! It’s the “workers’ flag” - none of this Stalinist rubbish about “people”. Though perhaps we should all be singing:
“The working families’ flag is deepest red
It underlines the fairness of our policies…”
PPiPP save a piece of your lance for those that are loosing their ability to write lose.
Oh, Anthony! I was singing “Only Polony” to my boy last night! Really.
Robert, Billy Bragg sang “People’s Flag”, and I defer to his authority on this point.
I prefer the version in tribute to the little postwar factory in Wolfsburg:
Reding and reviewing Bruce Pascoe’s “Convincing Ground”.If you want to work out where Aboriginal people are coming from, read it. If you’re a Howard hater, defitnitely read it. It will make you angry and confirm all your prejudices about JWH but you’ll love it.
My worst fears have been confirmed.Repeat. Then recognise them ,as if they represent , the words, the truth of ones relationship to fears, that they are not well represented as a finality..they in fact have a life beyond the confirmation. Lat night at approximately nine eleven my light went out and so did my computer. Some time before that also going out.Why approximate because when I look up my time piece, I cannot be sure that that is the time!? Today ,I just had a problem with Phil, no time involved, just the subject matter. Guess I am not lizard proof.
Liam:
If that’s what is sung for a Veewee, think of what a magnificent composition you could have for a Trabi, a Douche-a-vowe, a DAF, a Zot or a Niki. Hell, never mind the burbly exhausts of the Indy, give us anthems and paeans to REAL cars.
Robert Bollard:
History corrected; the errors never existed. All now joyfully follow the official line. Revisionists liquidated.
Just the spam filter Philip. Nothing to fear. It catches everyone’s comments at one time or another.
The salon seems rather light-hearted, but so too, no doubt, were many joyously unaware Americans back in August, when, it has just been reported, a B-52 flew overhead with six nuclear-armed cruise missiles attached to one of its wings. The ABC News website says that four senior USAF officers have been fired, and a further 65 denied permission to handle nuclear weapons. Now that’s a reassuring thought with yet more of our uranium set to head off overseas. Ah, the carefree contemplations of the weekend!
Middrel!
Here’s a fun titbit.
Oh my god! Shock! Horror! Collapse of Stout Party!
You may not be aware of this of Darren but thousands of aircraft, surface vessels and subs, automotive vehicles and big fucking holes in the ground, operated by at least six countries, have been sported armed and aimed nuclear warheads over the past sixty years. And yes, there’s been a plethora of fuckups during that time.
Call me when one goes off.
Kim and Everyone:
Living out in the bush has a lot of advantages …. but getting to see shows and events isn’t one of them.
Sizwe Banzi Is Dead will be on at the Sydney Opera House on 27th November.
All donations of airline tickets, hotel rooms and tickets to the performance will be gratefully accepted …. Thank you
Ah, Nabakov, call you when one goes off? You remind me of a scene in Cormac McCarthy’s The Road. Wandering in post-apocalypse America, a father enters an abandoned building and forlornly goes through the motions of making a telephone call on a long-dead line, to the bewilderment of his son. I have a feeling that not too many calls will get made in the event, and the fact there have been many stuff-ups over the years just means we’re giving ourselves lots of chances to win the big prize. But relax, be comfortable, it is the weekend.
You’re mostly a quiet lot this weekend. England has been prevented from swanking about with the William Webb Ellis trophy for another four years (although the playoff between the Pumas and the Frogs was a much better match) and nobody’s made a peep!
Is everybody busy madly writing Dumbledore slash instead?
I’ve already seen the first macros.
I see that James Watson just got suspended from Cold Springs Harbour for making an insensitive statement about the biological causes of black-white intellectual disparities.
At least he was not forced to create a diversity studies department in reparations. That ignominy was reserved for Larry SUmmers, when he violated the intellectual taboo on discussing the biological causes of male-female intellectual disparities. Summers was only president of Harvard for a few years. Watson spent 40 years building up the CSH research establishment.
In my naivety I supposed the guy who discovered DNA, founded the Human Genome Project and advises the Allen Brain Institute might have something interesting or illuminating to tell us about the relation ship b/w biological diversity and intellectual acuity. Apparently not, so far as the cultural powers-that-be are concerned.
Well thats a relief since now we dont have to think about that issue any more. Its been solved by political corrections.
No mention of this nasty skirmish in the Culture War on this site so far. And I thought that liberal-minded folk always supported robust scientific debate.
I guess I was being naive about that too.
So has the US government given these 65 miscreants honorary Iranian citizenship?
Dear Culture Warrior: “James Watson says something offensive and bizarre about an area outside his scientific expertise” is hardly surprising news to most people who have paid any attention to the man at all. Why give the old fart more oxygen?
The Allen Institute for Brain Science studies mouse brains.
Press release from Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory:
The Human Genome project doesn’t test intelligence/cognitive data either. So where has Watson actually done any science that backs up what he’s saying (this time or any other time he’s offended people)?
When I followed up James Watson’s statement on line I had an eerie feeling he might be Goebbels’ reincarnation. The problems in Africa are a combination of colonial mismanagement and border delineation and centuries of various tribal enmities. Of course, nothing like the Europeans,we only manage wars of religion, dynastic wars (same as the African momarchies) genocidal wars, and wars for loot, eg oil.
Nothing like the Africans at all, really.
Watson later said the http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2687364.ece“>following:
Two salient points:
1. Watson disavows any scientific basis for racial inequality.
2. Strocchers’ opinion that Watson has “something interesting to say” on the subject of racial inequality is absolutely correct.
Trouble is, Watson consigns Strocchers’ racial monomania to the rubbish bin of poor science.
Thanks for the heads-up, Strocchers!
tigtog on 21 October 2007 at 11:22 am
Why indeed? I guess being one of the best Nobel Prize winners in biology no longer cuts the mustard in some ideological quarters. And tigtog’s illustrious scientific qualifications would be…hmmm?
Watson has a special interest in the relationship b/w genetic identity and intellectual acuity since his own child is autistic. Anxiety concentrates the mind.
And mice brains have long been known as a good model for testing the relationship b/w genetic identity and ontogeneic development in higher order mammals. THat is why we use mice to test drugs and psychological theories.
The psychometric studies of aub-Saharan Africans strongly substantiate the empirical aspect of his claim. Lynn reports an average IQ of 67 for sub-saharan Africans. They do not prove Lynn-Watson’s theoretical claim, that intellectual faculties are substantially genetically inherited (rather than memetically imprinted).
I am a pluralist on this, believing that intellectual performance is a function of interaction:
- natural inheriting of biological endowment (genes),
- cultural imprinting by sociological environment (memes)
- nurtural incarnating in embryological embodiment (”phenes”)
Lynn suggests that part of the intellectual depression here is caused by the inhospitable ecological environmment (low iodine for nursing mothers.) It is an open question how much is due to the conservation of niche-specific biological endowments. (It was non-Africans who were the evolutionary diversifiers, but that is another story.)
The problem should not be skirted around because of political correctness. Social policies based on false or unrealistic ideas will waste money and distort institutions. Ideological stupidity kills more people than biological diversity.
But who needs to learn all that boring and difficult science stuff when we already have comprehensive manuals on ideological correctness so close at hand?
Katz on 21 October 2007 at 12:07 pm
Please refer my comment # 32 (”I am a pluralist on this…”) for my correct views on everything. Or at least before consigning me to “the rubbish bin of poor science”. (It appears that our comments crossed in posting, which does let Katz off the “blatant misrepresentation” hook.)
My intellectual pluralism is obviously directly at odds with malicious attribution of “racial monomania”. I have been pushing natural endowment/cultural environment/nurtural embodiment distinction for donkeys years. I think this functional equation is a better fit with the facts.
But it is also at odds with the “social monomania” that afflicts the likes of Katz. Perhaps he might learn something from people with an open mind.
Also, do you think the threat of the sack from his beloved research establishment might have had just a teensy weensy chilling effect on Watsons public thoughts, perhaps even encouraging a sudden back-flip on this issue?
Anyone heard anything from Dr. Cat lately? I miss seeing her around; it’s been a while. Is everything kool with her?
Meanwhile, the Watson controversy is so rich, I pretty much can’t even bring myself to write about it, for fear of provoking an imaginary angina attack. You all know who you are. Go stand in the corner, all of you, with silly Chinese dunce caps on your heads, until I can finally bring myself to stop laughing long enough to order y’all back to the luncheon table, with appropriate expressions of childish remorse on all your faces.
FREDDIE MERCURY: Galileo! (Galileo). [repeat as necessary.]
TUTTI: Magnificoooo!
FREDDIE MERCURY: I’m just a poor boy, nobody loves me.
TUTTI: He’s just a poor boy! From a poor family!
Spare him his life, from this mon-strosity!
FREDDIE MERCURY: Easy come, easy go. Will you let me go?
TUTTI: Bis’m'illah! No! We will not let you go!
etc. etc.
Maybe he has something useful to tell us about African mouse brains.
You know that Dr Cat has her own blog, JPZ? It’s over there on the sidebar; “Pavlov’s Cat”. I miss her too. There is a particularly incisive post up on her blog right now.
Paul Burns on 21 October 2007 at 11:56 am
Yes, that must be it. Watson has been a neo-fascist ultra-nationalist for generations. That is why he has always championed open-sourcing the genome because, you see, that will enable the white nations to better oppress the black people. Here is Watson showing his true colours:
I wonder what it is that makes people smear a great scientist and chill public debate. My guess is status-insecurity. (Hint: the Culture War has nothing to do with the condition of minorities. They are moral arms-race of one-upsmanship within the white majority, b/w the urban trendies and the suburban red-necks.)
I’d just like to note that Watson has not had his name on any peer-reviewed scientific papers since the 60s.
He’s used his reputation (which he was lucky enough to achieve on the back of Francis Crick, who has had many peer-reviewed published papers since the 60s) to good effect in science administration, but he hasn’t been a practising scientist for decades.
Linus Pauling’s team were breathing down the neck of Watson and Crick (and Franklin and Wilkins) at the time that they published their double helix model of the structure of DNA. The circumstances surrounding the elucidation of the structure of DNA were largely technological and Watson was extremely fortunate to be on Crick’s team. The fact that he has done virtually nothing of scientific (rather than educational) note since reinforces this widely held evaluation.
Pavlov’s Cat’s blog is here http://pavlovblog.blogspot.com/
I miss her.
“The fact that he [Watson] has done virtually nothing of scientific (rather than educational) note since reinforces this widely held evaluation.”
Duly noted. And the fact that, let’s say, Jane Adams, a goodwife of the 18th century in, oh, I don’t really know, but let’s just say the Plymouth Colony in Massachusetts for sport, shall we? — I repeat, that this same Jane A.’s lack of competence in advanced peer-reviewed metallurgy, should in no way prevent her liability from being burned alive, or at the very least, being summarily dismissed from the Institute she helped found, as a result of her Very, Very Sinful claims about Race and Intelligence, or on any other Publick Matter.
All agreed, say Aye. Just so long as you look Galileo in the eye on your way out of the courtroom.
That’s an utterly fatuous comparison, j_p_z.
Jane Adams, as far as I am aware, claimed no expertise in metallurgy. Watson certainly does claim expertise in science generally on the back of his Nobel Prize, yet has not been actually performing science since the 1960s.
Fairly large difference.
Sorry, tigtog, but it is you who are being fatuous, as I am very sorry to have to point out.
The truth or non-truth of Watson’s claim is completely irrelevant. Scientists are wrong all the time, as anybody who has ever even met one single scientist will affirm.
Do I have to actually spell this out for you, word by word? If I do, will you try to harness the law to punish me for my, um, arguments?
Can you understand the vital importance of what I am saying?
Can you?
tigtog on 21 October 2007 at 2:32 pm
Tigtog,
Your argument ad hominum against the scientific credentials of James Watson is ludicrous. Rather like a frog puffing itself up in a transparent attempt to intimidate a man.
The debate on race and intelligence is multidisciplinary. Therefore any competent scientist who familiarises himself with the literature is capable of making at least a fair and reasonable judgement on the matter. Watson is doing no more than that.
You can win a debate by character assasinating the other side. Or by improving the intellectual position of your own side.
I suggest the latter option is the more moral one.
j-p-z,
I utterly understand your point about freedom of scientific expression and for that matter all other academic freedoms.
Surely the point about Watson is there is little ot no scientific evidence to back up his statement, that he has a record for making these types of racist statements, and most importantly, especially in tyhis day and age scientists have a noral and ethical responsibility about the way they behave.
I strongly disagree with Watson, accept his explanation, though I doubt his sincerity,
and would not stop him saying what he says, but reserve the right to vehemently disagree with such a bone-chilling opinion.
Graham
I know I know, most of my recent war related viewing has been Ain’t Half Hot Mum series 3.
The film swings between sympathy and empathy for the Japanese soldiers without leaving any sense of bully for the Japanese empire - the whole feeling of the sad futility of it all. It’s so immersed in the Japanese viewpoint and the American fleet reminded me of an army of orcs.
I’m not sure if I’d feel the same way if it had been put out by a Japanese director which is probably why it had to be made by someone like Eastwood.
I’d like to hear what you thought of it.
Paul, I’ll have to watch the other one - shame it wasn’t a Drive-in Double. And agreed, Eastwood just keeps getting better. It’s kind of ironic that he’s doing thoughtful movies like these and Jodie Foster is putting out a vigilante flick.
Worst of Perth.
: ) I’m a sucker for ‘Dad’ humour.
“It’s so immersed in the Japanese viewpoint and the American fleet reminded me of an army of orcs.”
“the American fleet reminded me of an army of orcs.”
“the American fleet reminded me of an army of orcs.”
looks like someone needs a shrill fix.
because they ARE orcs.
now off you go.
I am currently digging this Kate Bush cover and deploring the dearth of silly horror films in the ‘Dog Soldiers’ vein.
Anthony,
Actors have got to make a living and apparently Hollywood producers are not at all favourable to movies with leading ladies in them at the moment. Nicole Kidman, Angelina Jolie, even Cate Blanchett have all bombed at the American box office and the money-men are very nervous about pushing anyone except Julia Roberts.
j_p_z, of course I understand your references to Galileo, I simply don’t accept the comparison.
Watson has had a reputation as an ass prone to making bizarre statements for years and years now. Various institutions that previously enjoyed having the prestige of a Nobel Prize winner’s name on their letterhead, even though he hasn’t done any science for decades, have now decided that he’s too cranky an old fart to be worth the headache.
Watson has been given a free ride for years and years on the back of his Nobel Prize. Now some people are just refusing to carry him any more. Watson is no Galileo.
He’s used his reputation (which he was lucky enough to achieve on the back of Francis Crick, who has had many peer-reviewed published papers since the 60s) to good effect in science administration, but he hasn’t been a practising scientist for decades.
Not just Crick. Google “Rosaling Franklin”.
J-Stroch, if it’s wrong for Tigtog to have an opinion because she isn’t a scientist, then you can’t have an opinion either. But just to keep you happy, here is the lowdown from two scientists.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/10/i_would_love_to_see_a_debate_b.php
http://gregladen.com/wordpress/?p=1535
And note, vehemently disagreeing with (and being to the left of) Watson does not equate with support for his suspension.
Sorry, RosaLIND Franklin. Ay- yiyi.
Helen, PZ has been persuaded that Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory was in fact correct to suspend Watson, due to the potential for his documented prejudices to open them up to liability from lawsuits from any employee or applicant past or present who felt that Watson, as an administrator, had discriminated against them in making decisions about hiring/promotions/grants.
Watson didn’t really leave them with any other choice.
anthony: “looks like someone needs a shrill fix.”
Well, planet earth is so large and weird, I wouldn’t be all that surprised that any particular thing turned out to be true, at least for a little while.
GLOUCESTER: I cannot tell. The world is grown so bad,
…Since every Jack became a gentleman,
There’s many a gentle person become a jack.
Are they ORCs, or AUKs?
tigtog: I can’t see that your argument makes the least bit of sense. Again, (and I simply can’t emphasize this enough) it doesn’t matter a whit whether Watson or his clones or his robots or acolytes or Turing-test partners are factually right, or not. This critter is explicitly being punished for having made a speech act that is not in accordance with an orthodoxy. And that is madness. That is the very definition of madness. Full stop.
Hey, look, I had to read Watson’s book at uni way back in the early eighties, before the advent of political correctness, and even back then I could smell that the guy was sort of a jerk. Doesn’t matter. Not part of the argument. I can call him a jerk, and explain why I think so, and he can reply at his leisure and counter my opinions, if he feels like it, without fear of retaliation. That is what sanity is like.
This business of yours, viz.:
“Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment, you must also be right.�
– Robert Park
is utter gibberish. I neither know nor care who Robert Park is, and his reputation, if he has one, does not in the least gild his braying like a fucking donkey. The matter as we find it is a political one, not a scientific one. Scientific matters are a concern for scientists, primarily; but political matters concern us all, each and every one of us. Can you not see that?
j_p_z: as I said, I understand your argument, I simply don’t agree with it. It is a myth that public dissemination of science can be apolitical: within the academy the attempt can be made with some success, but once scientists engage in public outreach they are playing with political perceptions, always.
Watson is on a book tour. He’s touting his memoirs, he’s not presenting any research which is being threatened with suppression.
He has made prejudicial public statements which now call into question every single decision he has been involved in as an administrator/mentor that involved scientists of African descent. CSHL is right as an institution to suspend him from administrative duties while they investigate further. He’s still on staff, he’s still getting paid, he still has his house on the CSHL site. It’s really a very mild response to him making statements that may open up CSHL to institutional liability in lawsuits for discriminatory practises.
I suspect Spicy Anthony was referring to the cinematic impact of the US taskforce swarming ashore and not its motivation and morals.
Damn good war movie too.
That’s not a Kate Bush cover, now this is a Kate Bush cover. Even her fingers are transcendentally sexy. And finally the song makes emotional sense.
Oh allright, the Futureheads werea bit of allright too, cleverly revisiting the Queen of Quirk a la her original contempories like The Jam or The Attractions.
Have you seen the latest from the team behind ‘Dog Soldiers’? Waaaargghhhh! Quite put me off spelunking with a posse of alpha females.
As for the current James Watson hooha, yes even reading the book he wrote ‘The Double Helix’, it’s hard not think of him as a jerk. As for his latest prouncements, well even great minds go off. (Eg: Some of Macfarlane Burnet’s aging views do not hold up well under scrunity - biological warfare against swarming asiatics for starters.)
But my take is he has every right to say what he wants to say. And his employers have every right to take exception to it.
It’s not like he can’t find an outlet for his current views. There’s this thing called the internt you know.
And speaking of Kate, I’ve often felt that if you wanted to do a sharp-edged 21st century film version of ‘Wide Sargosso Sea’ then this would be a good starting point art direction, music and moodwise.
From Cathy to Antoinette.
Actually I meant to say they reminded me of an army of dorks.
Check out Ken Watanabe in comparison. Styling.
But yeah there’s something very stunning and disorienting in a section of a movie that not only doesn’t preface with a grubby handed lighting of a Lucky Strike then the sharing of a water bottle with Sarge, Doc, Ethnic Guy and Moose but shows the US forces as a vast, malevolent and overwhelming force before becoming anonymous beachside bullet catchers. And this is in a battle which produced the definitive image of US soldiers in war. Clint’s not winning any friends here.
Is Peter Weir doing Letters from Çanakkale?
Paul
Good point - and it’s never been the easiest for actresses over forty. As Caine and Walken put it - it’s good to work.
Yes, in many ways it was a classic war movie -beleaguered outpost abandoned by rear echelon motherfuckers to face overwhelming and faceless odds in a last ditch battle to defend the homeland - yet with a reverse twist double pike dive through the mirror.
Of course the Nips started it and behaved very badly but as Clint deftly sketches out out, they were humans with reasons too. Who then finally had to confront a vast and vengeful US war machine. Except of course for the Emperor and the zaibatsu maganates. As usual it was the dedicated professional officers and poor bloody conscripts getting it in the neck.
And regardless of the overall merits of the story, it was damn good filmmaking. The back story about the failed Kempeitai dude was rendered in about only two minutes of screen time - movingly and very economically while subtly foreshadowing the breakdown of military authority later on on the island.
Kinda reminded me of ‘Cross Of Iron’ except Eastwood’s a lot less maudlin than Peckinpah.
No I haven’t. The thing about ‘Dog Soldiers’ was that it was quite funny and had just the right horror:buffness quotient for me. The Descent looks like the horror part of the equation will take it right out of my comfort zone.
I’ll have to have a look at Letters from Iwo Jima. Watanabe was the one bright spot in the Last Samurai. I went off Eastwood as a director after the disappointment of Mystic River. There were scenes that were obviously paced in a way that signalled ‘moving and revealing moment’ but I just found them hackneyed. Could just be my degenerate western need for constant novelty of course.
Hey Kim, I’ll be in San Francisco next week for work. Any hot tips for a first timer?
I’ll be in Berkeley for three days, otherwise in the city, if that helps!
I’ll second LeftyE’s request - I’m going to be in Berkely in early December and would love some tips..
Well, Mick, Im sure Kimski will come through with the goods - but I’ll pass whatever Ive gleaned back to you before you go!
LeftyE, mick — hey, enjoy your trip(s) to San Francisco! It’s a beautiful city, you’ll love it. (North Beach for the cappuccino, Noe Valley for the fog.) I wonder if these awful California fires have been through the Bay Area, though, does anyone know? Hopefully that calamity will be under control by the time you visit.
There used to be (Kim, is it still there?) this great little Italian cafe in North Beach where they had live opera singers on Sunday mornings, with piano accompaniment. It was great! If it’s still there, you should check it out. And the hills are no joke. Begin your cross-training now, if you intend to walk at all!
And now I am going to go on a brevity-and-pleasantness kick. I’ve been talking too much lately, and too crabbily, so now I’m going to confine myself to only making little mild jokes and pleasant asides on casual topics, not arguing about anything with substance. I’m saying this out loud because I promised myself silently that I’d do that a while ago, but then broke my own promise and started yapping away again. So now you know. I am hereby putting a sock in it. (Mostly.) If people catch me making long-winded arguments or being contentious, I hereby deputize you to kick me in the shins.
There’s lots to be gained from this charming and informative site, by mostly just listening.
Good luck with your elections! And enjoy San Fran! (and see that, I didn’t even make any catty remarks about Berkeley!)
Thanks j_p_z, I hope I can check out some of that. I’ve ben to the Bay Area once before but it was an absolute whilwind tour and I didn’t get to do much fun stuff. The one thing that I remember was just how amazing the Bay looked from the Berkely hills in on a clear morning.
Lefty, a visit to Amoeba Records, up the top end of Haight Street, next door to the McDonald’s, is a visit to Aladdin’s Cave for a music lover.
Russian Hill is a great neighbourhood for cheap eats and good bars nicely removed from the tourist dross.
Don’t miss the tour to Alcatraz. The guards lived in faux Victorians. The crims lived in Art Deco splendour.
Fort Point, right under the south stanchion of the GG Bridge, is a little known military museum.
Oh, and there’s that amazing old movie palace in the Castro. I think the theatre might even actually be called the Castro. If you can manage to watch some beautifully-filmed old masterpiece there, (I think it’s programmed as an art house, or was) it’s worth going. Katz, do you know the name of that crazy restaurant that specializes in desserts, that has the loopy fun-house-mirror architecture where all the lines are slanted and all the volumes are wrong?
Thanks chaps, duly noted. I’ll be on the Alcatraz tour avec bells. I think that was my fave movie when I was 14. Also pretty keen to see the old Spanish fort etc (Im a nerd for Iberian colonialism).
Amoeba records, yes indeed katz. I love 60s west coast sounds, so if I can rumble up some obscure Buffalo Springfield LP, or similar, I’ll declare around lunchtime and send the other side in. Will check the Castro movie palace, JPZ, thanks!
Hey, these fires sound really really appalling….
I’ll be in SF for most of December too!
Thanks for the tips everyone. I’ll be staying in the Castro, so I reckon I’ll need to arrange some sort of shipping container from this Amoeba place. Dessert restaurant, Russian Hill, Alcatraz duly noted.
What about live music spots? Anyone?
The dessert restaurant rings a vague bell. I can’t remember eating at any place similar to j_p_z’s description in SF, however.
You could eat in a different great Chinese restaurant every day for a year along Stockton, Washington and Columbus.
“You could eat in a different great Chinese restaurant every day for a year…”
Yeah, that’s the truth. (All my information is sort of old, haven’t been to SF in over seven years, but) there’s that great little place across the street from Francis Coppola’s HQ. Track down the Zoetrope offices, (if it’s still in that cute antiquated building in the middle of town) then just look for all the people standing patiently in line across the street, waiting for incredible Chinese food.
Actually, j_p_z - what about NY? I’ll be there for the NYE and the first 2 weeks of January. Where should a fella go for eclectic original music he wouldn’t have already heard? I guess I’m asking for a location more than a particular venue. We’ve got some well-connected hosts to get us otherwise-only-dreamt-of restaurant bookings, but they don’t know the first thing about the music scene.
FDB: well, I’d say for a one-stop-shopping central and cool location it’s the Knitting Factory, on Leonard St. down in Tribeca. Three different stages in one building (big, little, and tiny), there’s usually something for everybody, two great bars, and there’s nearly always something smart and weird going on. Though it’s not as truly weird as back when the likes of John Zorn stomped around. It makes a good central reference point, and from there you can pick up local data and listings for other places to explore.
Speaking of which, I was also going to recommend the marvelous Tonic in the Lower East Side, but I hadn’t been there in a while, and when I just looked them up online, it seems they’ve closed their doors. Damn gentrification. (It’s a pity, the place was great… really adventurous programming, and the building was a former old-time Manischewitz factory, and they used to have these enormous wine barrels in the basement that they hollowed out and turned into booths. I’m sorry you won’t see it.)
Since I’ve gotten old and square, I don’t get out enough these days to know the really cutting-edge places, though I can ask a few friends who know, and find out for you. If the Losers’ Lounge is still operational, you should check that out. (it’s a sort of floating assemblage of local talent doing a group study of a chosen artist for the night, you’d like it.) I’ll find out.
My feeling these days is that the music scene in NY is more about particular scheduling and what you want to see that night (since you can find just about anything), rather than the heroic vibe of a given place, like back with Sin-e and CBGB. If you tell me what styles of stuff you’re looking to check out, I can ask around a bit and tell you more precise sources. I’m a little more focused on jazz and classical these days than wiggy guitar stuff, but it can sure be found.
If I’m around in town at that time (which I should be), perhaps you’ll let me buy you and your friends a drink some night, if your schedule permits. I avoid posting my email, but if you ask one of the Collective maybe they’ll be so kind as to pass it along to you. Anyway, cheers, and I’ll see what else I can unearth that’s worth checking out.
Hey, how come we’re not talking about this?
Yesterday Dolly Downer said this:
Today Ratty Howard says this:
Leave out Ratty’s usual weasel words “no deal”. What have you got left? Simple, Dolly’s confirming what US civil rights lawyer Scott Horton claims to have overheard:
Either Dolly or Ratty is lying about this.
Fantastic! Just the sort of tips I was after (with the exception of the tantalising Tonic no-go).
Specific genres aren’t really my thing. Unfortunately I’ll be dragged out to a drum’n'bass night at some point by someone more “discerning”, but when the Lil’ Lady and I have our heads it’s open slather. Avoiding getting bogged down in any particular style is the order of the day. Jazz will be on the cards for sure, so anywhere with a Zorny legacy sounds promising.
I’d certainly be up for a beverage, schedule permitting. Will get onto LP admin for your email.
I recall a few comments about the Glenn Close show Damages when it started on Oz TV so I should say — just watched the US season final hot off the digital presses and — wow. One of the most satisfying resolutions (while still leaving enough for season 2 of course) of a suspense based show I’ve seen. I was very worried if they could keep it up and pay us off without contrivance, and they delivered so I recommend sticking with it at all costs and catching up if you’re not already hooked.