Comments on: Super Hornet purchase to be reviewed http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/ Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas Sat, 17 May 2008 15:25:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Robert Merkel http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-442755 Robert Merkel Wed, 27 Feb 2008 04:03:41 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-442755 Hmmm. This is a very old thread. I think I'll close the conversation here; note that there is a <a HREF="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/27/non-denial-denials-from-nick-minchin/" rel="nofollow">new thread</A> discussing the latest developments on this topic. Hmmm. This is a very old thread. I think I’ll close the conversation here; note that there is a new thread discussing the latest developments on this topic.

]]> By: Rod Liddle http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-442742 Rod Liddle Wed, 27 Feb 2008 03:45:02 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-442742 Ditch the super hornets and f111 buy 25 B2s that should piss off indo. And put the screws on for the raptor...A.S.A.P Ditch the super hornets and f111 buy 25 B2s that should piss off indo. And put the screws on for the raptor…A.S.A.P

]]> By: netvegetable http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-433397 netvegetable Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:06:20 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-433397 I would really like to know why we can't go to the Russian Sukhoi company for a deal like they gave the Indians. The deal included not only the license to manufacture the Sukhoi Su-30 themselves, using their own custom avionics, but also *total technology transfer*. I think it would be great if we in australia at least had the capability to manufacture spare parts for our aircraft ourselves. I think it's ridiculous that we buy planes like the F-18 from the Americans, and then we're completely dependent on them for spare parts. I mean: why bother buying them? Why not just pay the Americans to put an airforce base here? We're dependent on them anyway. And of course, the Su-35 is a very fast, astoundingly maneuverable, and very long range fighter. I'm sure the DSTO could design custom avionics that would give it an edge over other fighters in the region. I would really like to know why we can’t go to the Russian Sukhoi company for a deal like they gave the Indians. The deal included not only the license to manufacture the Sukhoi Su-30 themselves, using their own custom avionics, but also *total technology transfer*.

I think it would be great if we in australia at least had the capability to manufacture spare parts for our aircraft ourselves. I think it’s ridiculous that we buy planes like the F-18 from the Americans, and then we’re completely dependent on them for spare parts. I mean: why bother buying them? Why not just pay the Americans to put an airforce base here? We’re dependent on them anyway.

And of course, the Su-35 is a very fast, astoundingly maneuverable, and very long range fighter. I’m sure the DSTO could design custom avionics that would give it an edge over other fighters in the region.

]]> By: Robert Merkel http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432798 Robert Merkel Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:08:53 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432798 Mr. Brunson: while we value our alliance with eh USA enormously, the fact is that the USA's strategic interests are not always perfectly aligned with our own. If you look into our history, we had our imperial protector pre-WWII tell us "thanks for all your professional troops, thousands of airmen, etc. etc. - now go fend for yourself". Speaking for myself, it'd be nice to have enough independent capability to ensure that, whatever the USA docides to do or not do, we can look after ourselves. As for fighter pilots, not to knock them because clearly to make it through the extensive selection process you must have some pretty special skills, but they all tend to think that their plane is the best plane ever made. While you certainly have a point that speed is certainly not the be-all and end-all, that's true. However, it's relatively straightforward to fit a new radar, ECM, and weapons to an old plane; it's much tougher to make a plane go faster or fly further on a tank of fuel. Mr. Brunson:

while we value our alliance with eh USA enormously, the fact is that the USA’s strategic interests are not always perfectly aligned with our own. If you look into our history, we had our imperial protector pre-WWII tell us “thanks for all your professional troops, thousands of airmen, etc. etc. - now go fend for yourself”. Speaking for myself, it’d be nice to have enough independent capability to ensure that, whatever the USA docides to do or not do, we can look after ourselves.

As for fighter pilots, not to knock them because clearly to make it through the extensive selection process you must have some pretty special skills, but they all tend to think that their plane is the best plane ever made.

While you certainly have a point that speed is certainly not the be-all and end-all, that’s true. However, it’s relatively straightforward to fit a new radar, ECM, and weapons to an old plane; it’s much tougher to make a plane go faster or fly further on a tank of fuel.

]]> By: Willie H. Brunson http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432696 Willie H. Brunson Sun, 27 Jan 2008 05:35:53 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432696 Don’t get me wrong Mates; the F-15 of any flavor is an Awesome Platform my View (And this is a forum) is that Australia will by no means face any outside threat alone. The entire region is covered by Brits, Yanks and Aussies from a place call ’Diego Garcia’ which has everything from Barbs to B-52’s, ask the RAAF Pilots Who have flown in combat and training in there New Hornets what they think Speed is not an advantage if I you see you before you see me. Don't Forget Your Buying a System Not an Airplane! Don’t get me wrong Mates; the F-15 of any flavor is an Awesome Platform my View
(And this is a forum) is that Australia will by no means face any outside threat
alone. The entire region is covered by Brits, Yanks and Aussies from a place call ’Diego Garcia’ which has everything from Barbs to B-52’s, ask the RAAF Pilots
Who have flown in combat and training in there New Hornets what they think
Speed is not an advantage if I you see you before you see me.

Don’t Forget Your Buying a System Not an Airplane!

]]> By: Robert Merkel http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432562 Robert Merkel Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:35:21 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432562 Incidentally, the F-35 (aka the JSF) is a single-engine fighter. How this is supposed to be safe to operate over water I'm not too sure... Incidentally, the F-35 (aka the JSF) is a single-engine fighter.

How this is supposed to be safe to operate over water I’m not too sure…

]]> By: Peter Kemp http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432505 Peter Kemp Sat, 26 Jan 2008 08:36:36 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432505 <blockquote>SUPER Hornets are Secret Weapons used only by the Greatest First Day of War Force on Earth! The United States Navy</blockquote> That would of course be in the hope that the first day of war didn't include the opposition's "secret weapons" ie Sunburn/Yakhont. Their Mach 2.5 arrival would mean carriers doing a SuperDive and SuperSloths not long after doing a SuperSplash (with delayed pike). Kinda like history could repeat itself, Admiral Phillips style with Repulse and Prince of Wales: <blockquote>1941: What the fuck is that? A half ton of ironmongery through the upper deck Sir. <em>2008+: What the fuck are those blips? Yakhonts Sir--should we launch the remaining SuperH.......</em></blockquote> I agree with Nabs, bring on the Sukies from Indonesia. (If we got 100 of them them directly from RasPutin, at a fraction of the price of SuperSloths, they might throw in 100 Yakhonts and Sukie attaching brackets and bolts for about the same price as 1 Superhornet? Wouldn't we then be the "coolest" people in the "arc of instability" with the capacity to bust [heaven forbid], even Uncle Sam's "tin can" arse?)

SUPER Hornets are Secret Weapons used only by the Greatest First Day of War Force on Earth!
The United States Navy

That would of course be in the hope that the first day of war didn’t include the opposition’s “secret weapons” ie Sunburn/Yakhont. Their Mach 2.5 arrival would mean carriers doing a SuperDive and SuperSloths not long after doing a SuperSplash (with delayed pike).

Kinda like history could repeat itself, Admiral Phillips style with Repulse and Prince of Wales:

1941: What the fuck is that?

A half ton of ironmongery through the upper deck Sir.

2008+: What the fuck are those blips?
Yakhonts Sir–should we launch the remaining SuperH…….

I agree with Nabs, bring on the Sukies from Indonesia. (If we got 100 of them them directly from RasPutin, at a fraction of the price of SuperSloths, they might throw in 100 Yakhonts and Sukie attaching brackets and bolts for about the same price as 1 Superhornet? Wouldn’t we then be the “coolest” people in the “arc of instability” with the capacity to bust [heaven forbid], even Uncle Sam’s “tin can” arse?)

]]> By: GregM http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432501 GregM Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:56:47 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432501 <blockquote>Oh, and if the F-15 “can not operate in a Salt Water Environment�, as you put it, then presumably the Su-27 (designed as the Soviet counterpart to the F-15) can’t either. In which case, Australia has nothing to fear from the Indonesian AF and we don’t need to buy anything!</blockquote> I wouldn't expect any plane to operate in a salt water environment, Catalinas excepted, but I don't think that it would be a sound idea to build our air defence around them. We keep a navy to operate in a salt water environment. Willie H. Brunson you may not have noticed this but the United States has eleven (or is it twelve ?) aircraft carriers. Among the planes that have flown off them is the F15N "Sea Eagle". Could they not operate in a salt water environment?

Oh, and if the F-15 “can not operate in a Salt Water Environment�, as you put it, then presumably the Su-27 (designed as the Soviet counterpart to the F-15) can’t either. In which case, Australia has nothing to fear from the Indonesian AF and we don’t need to buy anything!

I wouldn’t expect any plane to operate in a salt water environment, Catalinas excepted, but I don’t think that it would be a sound idea to build our air defence around them. We keep a navy to operate in a salt water environment.

Willie H. Brunson you may not have noticed this but the United States has eleven (or is it twelve ?) aircraft carriers. Among the planes that have flown off them is the F15N “Sea Eagle”. Could they not operate in a salt water environment?

]]> By: Paulus http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432490 Paulus Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:20:16 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432490 Nabs, no one says we have to be buying 25 year old second-hand F-15s, like the one that disintegrated embarrassingly in your video. We could instead pick up brand new F-15E derivatives like the Singaporeans and Koreans are getting, with all sorts of neat combat systems and electronics. Willie, if any modern combat aircraft can't operate over water, just put it back in its box and write "return to sender" on it. You may wish to think about why the version being delivered to South Korea, the 'F-15K Slam Eagle', is designed to carry the AGM-84 Harpoon anti-shipping missile. Oh, and if the F-15 "can not operate in a Salt Water Environment", as you put it, then presumably the Su-27 (designed as the Soviet counterpart to the F-15) can't either. In which case, Australia has nothing to fear from the Indonesian AF and we don't need to buy anything! Nabs, no one says we have to be buying 25 year old second-hand F-15s, like the one that disintegrated embarrassingly in your video.

We could instead pick up brand new F-15E derivatives like the Singaporeans and Koreans are getting, with all sorts of neat combat systems and electronics.

Willie, if any modern combat aircraft can’t operate over water, just put it back in its box and write “return to sender” on it. You may wish to think about why the version being delivered to South Korea, the ‘F-15K Slam Eagle’, is designed to carry the AGM-84 Harpoon anti-shipping missile.

Oh, and if the F-15 “can not operate in a Salt Water Environment”, as you put it, then presumably the Su-27 (designed as the Soviet counterpart to the F-15) can’t either. In which case, Australia has nothing to fear from the Indonesian AF and we don’t need to buy anything!

]]> By: Willie H. Brunson http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432430 Willie H. Brunson Sat, 26 Jan 2008 04:08:25 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-432430 Bob, F-15's are fragile they can not operate in a Salt Water Environment if they could USAF Bases Would be near Water, Super Hornets alone will not save you . Nabakov, War: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia War is any large scale, violent conflict. War grew from the almost universal tribal warfare that has occurred throughout history, to wars between city states, nations, or empires. By extension, the word is now used for any struggle, as in the war on drugs or the war on terror. It was once thought man was the only animal who fought wars, but closer observation of animal life has discovered wars between ant colonies and chimpanzee tribes. Bob,
F-15’s are fragile they can not operate in a Salt Water Environment if they could USAF Bases Would be near Water, Super Hornets alone will not save you .

Nabakov,
War:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
War is any large scale, violent conflict. War grew from the almost universal tribal warfare that has occurred throughout history, to wars between city states, nations, or empires. By extension, the word is now used for any struggle, as in the war on drugs or the war on terror. It was once thought man was the only animal who fought wars, but closer observation of animal life has discovered wars between ant colonies and chimpanzee tribes.

]]> By: Nabakov http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-431155 Nabakov Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:04:29 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-431155 To be fair Rob, the F4U Corsair was never really used for CAP or high altitude interception. "would you prefer an F-15E Strike Eagle" <a href="http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003951.html" rel="nofollow">Maybe</a>. Or thinking really laterally now, why don't we just offer a cash-strapped Indonesia a deal whereby we lease off them the bunch of SU-27s they ordered but can't really afford. Then when we finally get our F-35s or whatever, we can return the now obsolete planes we wanted to guard against. And the Indos get their fast jalopies back in probably better condition than when they were first delivered by the Russkies, albeit perhaps with a mess of prawns hidden in the plumbing that pipes warm air into the cockpit. It's a win-win situation I tell you! "the Greatest First Day of War Force on Earth!" Whenever people say shit like that, it's usually followed by the last day of peace in some benighted corner of the planet. To be fair Rob, the F4U Corsair was never really used for CAP or high altitude interception.

“would you prefer an F-15E Strike Eagle”

Maybe.

Or thinking really laterally now, why don’t we just offer a cash-strapped Indonesia a deal whereby we lease off them the bunch of SU-27s they ordered but can’t really afford. Then when we finally get our F-35s or whatever, we can return the now obsolete planes we wanted to guard against. And the Indos get their fast jalopies back in probably better condition than when they were first delivered by the Russkies, albeit perhaps with a mess of prawns hidden in the plumbing that pipes warm air into the cockpit.

It’s a win-win situation I tell you!

“the Greatest First Day of War Force on Earth!”
Whenever people say shit like that, it’s usually followed by the last day of peace in some benighted corner of the planet.

]]> By: Robert Merkel http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-431025 Robert Merkel Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:48:55 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-431025 Mr. Brunson: So was the F4U Corsair. Doesn't mean it's the best option currently available to the RAAF.... Seriously - if you had the choice for an air-to-ground strike mission, would you prefer an F-15E Strike Eagle with the latest avionics, or the Super Hornet? Mr. Brunson: So was the F4U Corsair. Doesn’t mean it’s the best option currently available to the RAAF….

Seriously - if you had the choice for an air-to-ground strike mission, would you prefer an F-15E Strike Eagle with the latest avionics, or the Super Hornet?

]]> By: Willie H. Brunson http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-430953 Willie H. Brunson Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:07:15 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-430953 Yank Allie. As a Former Member of the US Navy Deployed around the World In Support of FA-18 C/D and Super Hornets of all Flavors Flying around the clock Non-Stop from Land and Sea These Machines are made for WAR Air or Ground. SUPER Hornets are Secret Weapons used only by the Greatest First Day of War Force on Earth! The United States Navy Australia is an Aircraft Carrier Surrounded by water Yank Allie.

As a Former Member of the US Navy Deployed around the World
In Support of FA-18 C/D and Super Hornets of all Flavors
Flying around the clock Non-Stop from Land and Sea These
Machines are made for WAR Air or Ground.

SUPER Hornets are Secret Weapons used only by the Greatest First Day of
War Force on Earth!

The United States Navy

Australia is an Aircraft Carrier Surrounded by water

]]> By: Tony D http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-427262 Tony D Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:14:51 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-427262 MW, care to add something to support the contention that the purchase was 'extremely wise'? On what grounds? And while the decision may or may not have been entirely Nelson's, he was the minister at the time and theres a thing called ministerial responsibility. <i>"I just glad he had the balls to actually make a decision!!"</i> Oh yes, like George The Lesser, Brendan is such a great decision maker... what a track record eh?! MW, care to add something to support the contention that the purchase was ‘extremely wise’? On what grounds?

And while the decision may or may not have been entirely Nelson’s, he was the minister at the time and theres a thing called ministerial responsibility.

“I just glad he had the balls to actually make a decision!!”

Oh yes, like George The Lesser, Brendan is such a great decision maker… what a track record eh?!

]]> By: M.W http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-427222 M.W Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:16:41 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-427222 Australia's decision to buy the FA 18F Super Hornet was an extremely wise decision. Do we as an Australian nation want to be left vonerable and without the air capability to protect ourselves? I think not!! The F111's are long past there due date for retirement and a suitable aircraft is needed to keep Australia at World air combat capability. The decision was not entirley B. Nelsons!! I just glad he had the balls to actually make a decision!! If the programme is axed, like John Howard it will be a bad day for Australia!! Australia’s decision to buy the FA 18F Super Hornet was an extremely wise decision. Do we as an Australian nation want to be left vonerable and without the air capability to protect ourselves? I think not!! The F111’s are long past there due date for retirement and a suitable aircraft is needed to keep Australia at World air combat capability. The decision was not entirley B. Nelsons!! I just glad he had the balls to actually make a decision!! If the programme is axed, like John Howard it will be a bad day for Australia!!

]]> By: kevin http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424664 kevin Sat, 05 Jan 2008 11:27:32 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424664 hi......this is very nice hi……this is very nice

]]> By: Graham Bell http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424505 Graham Bell Fri, 04 Jan 2008 22:39:15 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424505 Paul Burns [57]: Your quote sums it up beautifully. Being well prepared does not mean panicking and becoming paranoid but it does mean re-thinking our situation, taking effective measures and then relaxing by watching the cricket or going fishing. There was a story or parable in the old Queensland school readers about the farmboy who slept well on windy nights .... they story doesn't seem to be widely circulated at all at ADFA. Paul Burns [57]:
Your quote sums it up beautifully.

Being well prepared does not mean panicking and becoming paranoid but it does mean re-thinking our situation, taking effective measures and then relaxing by watching the cricket or going fishing. There was a story or parable in the old Queensland school readers about the farmboy who slept well on windy nights …. they story doesn’t seem to be widely circulated at all at ADFA.

]]> By: Graham Bell http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424503 Graham Bell Fri, 04 Jan 2008 22:28:14 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424503 Everyone: Great news yesterday. Cause for celebration! ADF is going to make postings longer and more family-friendly. That is the sort of stroke-of-the-pen, low-cost measure that will really upgrade our defence capability [the sort I have advocated for years and that got me a bad reputation among oxygen-wasting fuddy-duddy wardroom warriors and mess commandos :-) ]. It's a measure that has the military value of at least 3 or 4 SuperHornets. Keep up the good work. No day is perfect - even a great day like yesterday - and of course the good old Dept. of Veterans Affairs can be relied on to keep as many keen potential recruits as possible away from the ADF .... this time with the incredible news that they are trying to rip-off the poor old surviving ex-Prisoners-Of-War of the Imperial Japanese. How many cents did they save? Good one fellas, Osama bin-Laden and his ilk will be delighted. Everyone:

Great news yesterday. Cause for celebration!

ADF is going to make postings longer and more family-friendly.

That is the sort of stroke-of-the-pen, low-cost measure that will really upgrade our defence capability [the sort I have advocated for years and that got me a bad reputation among oxygen-wasting fuddy-duddy wardroom warriors and mess commandos :-) ]. It’s a measure that has the military value of at least 3 or 4 SuperHornets.

Keep up the good work.

No day is perfect - even a great day like yesterday - and of course the good old Dept. of Veterans Affairs can be relied on to keep as many keen potential recruits as possible away from the ADF …. this time with the incredible news that they are trying to rip-off the poor old surviving ex-Prisoners-Of-War of the Imperial Japanese. How many cents did they save? Good one fellas, Osama bin-Laden and his ilk will be delighted.

]]> By: Tony D http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424472 Tony D Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:40:03 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424472 <i>"You just cant beat a smart robot armed with a death ray."</i> <a href="http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/geekend/?p=572" rel="nofollow">Battlemech's</a> FTW!!! “You just cant beat a smart robot armed with a death ray.”

Battlemech’s FTW!!!

]]> By: Paul Burns http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424357 Paul Burns Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:31:24 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/02/super-hornet-purchase-to-be-reviewed/#comment-424357 Graham, In that case we're in exactly the same position we were in 1938, when Blamey (I think) made a remark along the lines of us being a flock of mindless gazelles unaware of the lion ready to pounce. Unfortunately I don't have the exact quote to hand. Graham,
In that case we’re in exactly the same position we were in 1938, when Blamey (I think) made a remark along the lines of us being a flock of mindless gazelles unaware of the lion ready to pounce. Unfortunately I don’t have the exact quote to hand.

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