T’was a joke Joyce.

“The norm exists, regardless.”

Yes, I do take your point. Again I was as usual going for the cheap one-liner.

Dude, that’s not a proviso, that’s rewording. My simple point was that the difference is fairly modest, and no where near enough to reify it into a simplistic men = bad, women = good.”

What I was doing was defusing that disingenuous “it’s all relative” qualifer “almost”.

“Nabs I’m calling your off-handed smugness as a psychical defence.”

Y’know sometimes off-handed smugness is just off-handed smugness. But by all means feel free to read your own personal interpretations into an off-hand smug and tipsy comment.

““How many short male models with small shoulders are there?â€?

Quite a few actually. Why do you think photoshop was invented? And on the other hand, there’s a passel of Hollywood A-list leading men who fit that description.”"

There actually aren’t very many, but photoshopping wouldn’t change the point. The norm exists, regardless. Photoshopping is common for female models as well. And the lead Hollywood actors who are short are a very small compared to the reverse - and generally figures to laugh at rather than inspire.

“I’d go along with that observation too, but with the proviso that “Almost as many women have affairs as menâ€? really means “less women have affairs as menâ€?.”

Dude, that’s not a proviso, that’s rewording. My simple point was that the difference is fairly modest, and no where near enough to reify it into a simplistic men = bad, women = good.

““I think many of the people who comment on these issues also feel intense emotion about them.â€?
Not in my case. More like a good chuckle at the human comedy.”

Nabs I’m calling your off-handed smugness as a psychical defence. The whole I’m-so-above-emotion-I’ll-just-sit-back-and-mock-everyone’s-foibles seems to me like a weak, Last Manish-attempt at the masculist holy grail of detachment. But no matter. Give me a passion any day.

Why do you think photoshop was invented?

So many punchlines, so little time.

(Actually I had thought Ms Fits might have been visiting).

Is Ms Fits still blogging?

Yer right. We need direct action. Like Emily Davison at the 1913 Derby.That certainly shocked the Brits into getting their arses into gear for universal suffragism. I look forward to women with excessive BMI smothering the paparazzi at red carpet bunfights.

“How many short male models with small shoulders are there?”

Quite a few actually. Why do you think photoshop was invented? And on the other hand, there’s a passel of Hollywood A-list leading men who fit that description.

“Anyway, being on the wrong side of the majority’s aesthetic/sexual choice is hardly like not getting a job cause you’re black.”

No it’s like not getting a job because you’re short, fat or have irregular features, regardless of how well you can do it.

Unless you’re a well-connected bloke.

“Good point sublime cowgirl about the gender stereotypes in the intro quote: “It isn’t women who breach the contract of sexual exclusivity by failing to fulfil their marital duties, night after night feigning headaches. It is men who are crap at monogamy.â€?

Oh come on, that’s not empirical; that’s ranting. It squishes all the complexity and messiness of the world for a simplistic ideological us vs them. Almost as many women have affairs as men. I know women who openly admit they are primarily the ‘takers’ from the arrangement.”

I’d go along with that observation too, but with the proviso that “Almost as many women have affairs as men” really means “less women have affairs as men”.

“I think many of the people who comment on these issues also feel intense emotion about them.”
Not in my case. More like a good chuckle at the human comedy. Incidentally, has anyone seen a zaftig brunette walking down Acland St recently? She was supposed to be here two hours ago.

Rilly? If so, look that’s ridiculous jinmaro/woulfe. Whoever and however you are now, you established a strong and feisty persona with jinmaro that made people sit a little straighter in their chair when it came to engaging with you.

Why chop and change now? Don’t you want to carry on as you started? Also anyone who keeps changing their net de plume is basically sending a message they’re not really committed to standing by their viewpoints. Tsk, Tsk.

- The commentator formerly known as Nabakov.

All societies establish dominant modes of looking and behaving, regardless of how universal these may or may not be (we don’t have much SOLID evidence either way there). The people lucky enough to be in the ideal are happy and have lots of fun; those outside the ideal have less fun, and experience pain and rejection. BUT crying about the horrible injustice of society’s standards won’t get anybody very far. You will get stuck feeling sorry for yourself, making you negative and even less attractive. Nietzsche’s ressentiment springs to mind. You just have to live your own standards and affirm them. If people want to reject you, well too bad for them.

Comparing ‘attractivism’ to racism, sexism etc seems a bit much. There may well be covariation between the two categories but, in itself, that says very little sociologically.

I think the hegemony of beauty is just as strong for men as it is for women. How many short male models with small shoulders are there? Who are more popular at the bars? I know men with anorexia and men addicted to steroids, but beauty oppression only ever seems to be discussed in relation to women. Perhaps that’s just my ressentiment?

Anyway, being on the wrong side of the majority’s aesthetic/sexual choice is hardly like not getting a job cause you’re black.

Good point sublime cowgirl about the gender stereotypes in the intro quote: “It isn’t women who breach the contract of sexual exclusivity by failing to fulfil their marital duties, night after night feigning headaches. It is men who are crap at monogamy.”

Oh come on, that’s not empirical; that’s ranting. It squishes all the complexity and messiness of the world for a simplistic ideological us vs them. Almost as many women have affairs as men. I know women who openly admit they are primarily the ‘takers’ from the arrangement.

I think many of the people who comment on these issues also feel intense emotion about them. The full force of this comes out in furious blog posts, where social norms of propriety are less strong. Perhaps, everything would be so much better if we focused on having more fun in our lives rather than attacking people who carry different burdens and who see things differently?

Speak for yourself sonny. I have no problems whatsoever telling the difference between a dog on a rusty chain and one on a choke collar.

Dan the Man is a very different proposition. He’s been in the trenches!

Wolfe, your poem is very beautiful. It contrasts with much that has appeared in this thread.

There are lots of wise people who’ve things to say on this topic. Unfortunately, not one have been mentioned here. We’ll all have to look elsewhere.

But, I think the poets come closest to it.

The Lost One

The red gleam o’er the mountains
Goes wavering from sight,
And the quiet moon enhances
The loveliness of night.

I open wide my casement
To breathe the rain-cooled air.
And mingle with the moonlight
The dark waves of my hair.

The night wind tells me secrets
Of lotus lilies blue;
And hour by hour the willows
Shake down the chiming dew.

I fain would take the zither,
By some stray fancy led;
But there are none to hear me,
And who can charm the dead?

So all my day-dreams follow
The bird that leaves the nest;
And in the night I gather
The lost one to my breast.

Meng Hao-Jan, A.D. 689-740

Monogamy, polygamy, masturbation, sex with the opposite gender, sex with the same gender, sex with groups of people, sex with a dog on a rusty chain, sex using diverse apertures, sex involving vibrating things, sex with a randy goat or an inviting hole in the fence…the options are many. The answers are few.

One thing seems clear however. Humans have completely lost the plot!

Or perhaps they were never really aware of it.

Q. Why do people like to have sex? Why will many men have sex with just about any possible woman or, in their absence, men, or other other animals?

A. Because they like to have sexual intercourse.

Very scholarly. Very profound.