<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Suharto dies</title>
	<atom:link href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:13:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Graham Bell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-433793</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433793</guid>
		<description>Paulus [58]:
Many of the serious problems did indeed start under the ever-brilliant rule of Bung Karno .... but there was no need for Australia to exacerbate them.   Our surrender [in reality it was our surrender] of all the territory in New Guinea west of the Menzies Line was a stupid thing to do and probably did us harm throughout the developing world; there was no shortage alternatives that would still have enchanced Indonesia&#039;s prestige and ambitions .... and increased beneficial relations between our two countries. 

Konfrontasi against Malaysia could have been avoided if we hadn&#039;t gone so hysterical over the possibility of co-operation - perhaps even political confederation - of Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines [eventually what came to be called Mafilindo].  Yellow Peril joins Communist Takover in the view of those Australians in power who imagined the PKI, CTs and the Huk holding a victory parade up Pitt Street.   Anyway, the world got ASEAN and we all seem better off for it.

Our own diplomats and experts may indeed have had innovative ideas for economic development but they were screwed up as much by our own politicians, businessmen, public servants, commentators and by our American friends as by Soekarno himself. 

If Sukarno was so bad - what the hell were we doing crawling to a monster like Suharto?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paulus [58]:<br />
Many of the serious problems did indeed start under the ever-brilliant rule of Bung Karno &#8230;. but there was no need for Australia to exacerbate them.   Our surrender [in reality it was our surrender] of all the territory in New Guinea west of the Menzies Line was a stupid thing to do and probably did us harm throughout the developing world; there was no shortage alternatives that would still have enchanced Indonesia&#8217;s prestige and ambitions &#8230;. and increased beneficial relations between our two countries. </p>
<p>Konfrontasi against Malaysia could have been avoided if we hadn&#8217;t gone so hysterical over the possibility of co-operation &#8211; perhaps even political confederation &#8211; of Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines [eventually what came to be called Mafilindo].  Yellow Peril joins Communist Takover in the view of those Australians in power who imagined the PKI, CTs and the Huk holding a victory parade up Pitt Street.   Anyway, the world got ASEAN and we all seem better off for it.</p>
<p>Our own diplomats and experts may indeed have had innovative ideas for economic development but they were screwed up as much by our own politicians, businessmen, public servants, commentators and by our American friends as by Soekarno himself. </p>
<p>If Sukarno was so bad &#8211; what the hell were we doing crawling to a monster like Suharto?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paulus</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-433767</link>
		<dc:creator>Paulus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433767</guid>
		<description>&quot;The thing is, we failed miserably on using whatever influence we did have to help bring about beneficial change in Indonesia.&quot;

Graham, our opportunitity to help Indonesia pre-1965 was greatly affected, in a negative way, by the decisions of Sukarno, who went increasingly batty as his reign went on and made it ever more difficult to divert Indonesia from the path to ruin.

Our diplomats had some interesting and innovative ideas for economic development, thereby reducing the PKI&#039;s influence in a non-violent way. But it was all screwed up by Sukarno, who made it politically almost impossible for Australia to be supporting Indonesia.

First he went on the campaign to grab West New Guinea (as we referred to the place). Canberra was opposed to that, partially out of pro-colonial feelings for the Dutch. But we also knew that the Dutch would leave one day, whereas once WNG was taken over by Indonesia it would never escape. (And what right anyway did the Javanese have to the place?)

Secondly, Sukarno&#039;s foolish campaign against North Borneo -- konfrontasi. Given that we were firmly on the side of Malaysia, and indeed providing troops, we didn&#039;t have much flexibility to be helping Indonesia at the same time.

Finally, Sukarno&#039;s total mismanagement of the economy and severing of economic ties with the rest of the world.

Frankly, a lot of blame for the horrors of 1965-66 is on the head of Sukarno. He didn&#039;t instigate the massacres, but they might well have been avoided without the gross mistakes of his presidency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The thing is, we failed miserably on using whatever influence we did have to help bring about beneficial change in Indonesia.&#8221;</p>
<p>Graham, our opportunitity to help Indonesia pre-1965 was greatly affected, in a negative way, by the decisions of Sukarno, who went increasingly batty as his reign went on and made it ever more difficult to divert Indonesia from the path to ruin.</p>
<p>Our diplomats had some interesting and innovative ideas for economic development, thereby reducing the PKI&#8217;s influence in a non-violent way. But it was all screwed up by Sukarno, who made it politically almost impossible for Australia to be supporting Indonesia.</p>
<p>First he went on the campaign to grab West New Guinea (as we referred to the place). Canberra was opposed to that, partially out of pro-colonial feelings for the Dutch. But we also knew that the Dutch would leave one day, whereas once WNG was taken over by Indonesia it would never escape. (And what right anyway did the Javanese have to the place?)</p>
<p>Secondly, Sukarno&#8217;s foolish campaign against North Borneo &#8212; konfrontasi. Given that we were firmly on the side of Malaysia, and indeed providing troops, we didn&#8217;t have much flexibility to be helping Indonesia at the same time.</p>
<p>Finally, Sukarno&#8217;s total mismanagement of the economy and severing of economic ties with the rest of the world.</p>
<p>Frankly, a lot of blame for the horrors of 1965-66 is on the head of Sukarno. He didn&#8217;t instigate the massacres, but they might well have been avoided without the gross mistakes of his presidency.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham Bell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-433734</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433734</guid>
		<description>Mark [52] and GregM [50]:
You already know who taught me about Indonesia at university but there were quite a few other influences on my points of view as well.

Australia might well have been a rather small player in the wild wayang - though the fleeting vision of McMahon, Whitlam and Fraser, each as a dalang in the flickering light, is funnier than a cagefull of monkeys.   However, Australia did have quite a bit of influence at that time; influence out of all proportion for its size.   Small player?  You mean small like Hanuman perhaps?  [No, just kidding on that last point]   

The thing is, we failed miserably on using whatever influence we did have to help bring about beneficial change in Indonesia.   We were so obsessed with cult of Anti-Communism that it blinded us to everything else - including failing to realize what it was that attracted people to PKI.  We deluded ourselves into believing that Communism could be beaten only with guns and by grovelling to scoundrels like Suharto - to the total exclusion of all other means of reducing the threat and the power of Communism.

Andrew Reynolds [53]:
Oversimplifying very complex situations in the &#039;60s and &#039;70s, Indonesia was perhaps a bit more like Italy than like Viet-Nam - there were very powerful religious and nationalist forces in the country which made a complete Communist takeover unlikely, regardless of how much China - or the USSR and its satellites - invested in revolution.

Pembaca Indonesia:
Kami menunggu ....  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark [52] and GregM [50]:<br />
You already know who taught me about Indonesia at university but there were quite a few other influences on my points of view as well.</p>
<p>Australia might well have been a rather small player in the wild wayang &#8211; though the fleeting vision of McMahon, Whitlam and Fraser, each as a dalang in the flickering light, is funnier than a cagefull of monkeys.   However, Australia did have quite a bit of influence at that time; influence out of all proportion for its size.   Small player?  You mean small like Hanuman perhaps?  [No, just kidding on that last point]   </p>
<p>The thing is, we failed miserably on using whatever influence we did have to help bring about beneficial change in Indonesia.   We were so obsessed with cult of Anti-Communism that it blinded us to everything else &#8211; including failing to realize what it was that attracted people to PKI.  We deluded ourselves into believing that Communism could be beaten only with guns and by grovelling to scoundrels like Suharto &#8211; to the total exclusion of all other means of reducing the threat and the power of Communism.</p>
<p>Andrew Reynolds [53]:<br />
Oversimplifying very complex situations in the &#8217;60s and &#8217;70s, Indonesia was perhaps a bit more like Italy than like Viet-Nam &#8211; there were very powerful religious and nationalist forces in the country which made a complete Communist takeover unlikely, regardless of how much China &#8211; or the USSR and its satellites &#8211; invested in revolution.</p>
<p>Pembaca Indonesia:<br />
Kami menunggu &#8230;.  <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: redbox</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-433636</link>
		<dc:creator>redbox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 05:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433636</guid>
		<description>John Roosa http://insideindonesia.org/content/view/1042/47/ in Inside Indonesia has written well-informed article that&#039;s a lot more convincing than Woolacott&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Roosa <a href="http://insideindonesia.org/content/view/1042/47/" rel="nofollow">http://insideindonesia.org/content/view/1042/47/</a> in Inside Indonesia has written well-informed article that&#8217;s a lot more convincing than Woolacott&#8217;s.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ambigulous</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-433614</link>
		<dc:creator>Ambigulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433614</guid>
		<description>as an Aussie, terima kasih Graham Bell &amp; Andrew Reynolds for inviting comments from Indonesians: it might add matters of direct pertinency to our speculations here</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as an Aussie, terima kasih Graham Bell &amp; Andrew Reynolds for inviting comments from Indonesians: it might add matters of direct pertinency to our speculations here</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bill O'Slatter</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-433573</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill O'Slatter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433573</guid>
		<description>For an insight into Australia&#039;s relationship with Indonesia in the mid 60&#039;s 
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/hindsight/stories/2007/1933479.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For an insight into Australia&#8217;s relationship with Indonesia in the mid 60&#8217;s<br />
<a href="http://www.abc.net.au/rn/hindsight/stories/2007/1933479.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.abc.net.au/rn/hindsight/stories/2007/1933479.htm</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andrew Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-433377</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433377</guid>
		<description>Graham Bell,
I would not be so quick to say that it may have been &quot;a democracy on it’s own efforts generation earlier&quot;. The PKI was a very large organisation, very well funded and led by ideologues trained in China. Given the record of other nations with a similar profile I would not be so quick to rush to judgement on that. Even today as you drive  (or, more likely with the traffic get driven around) Jakarta there are plenty of examples of &quot;Communist Realist&quot; sculpture.
To me his record was, at best, mixed - and if the ends can justify the means then perhaps Indonesia today is a good example.
To agree with another commenter, though, it was a pity that Megawati and Gus Dur did not get to power a decade before they did. The communist threat was eliminated decades ago. Once this was gone any possible rationale for a brutal autocracy was gone.
To agree with you on one thing though, Graham - Kalau ada orang Indonesia yang baca-baca ini, silahkan menulis. Saya mau baca tulisan engkau. Juga ada banyak orang Australia yang ingin baca tulisan oleh orang Indonesia tentang Presiden Suharto, kalau sukanya atau tidak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graham Bell,<br />
I would not be so quick to say that it may have been &#8220;a democracy on it’s own efforts generation earlier&#8221;. The PKI was a very large organisation, very well funded and led by ideologues trained in China. Given the record of other nations with a similar profile I would not be so quick to rush to judgement on that. Even today as you drive  (or, more likely with the traffic get driven around) Jakarta there are plenty of examples of &#8220;Communist Realist&#8221; sculpture.<br />
To me his record was, at best, mixed &#8211; and if the ends can justify the means then perhaps Indonesia today is a good example.<br />
To agree with another commenter, though, it was a pity that Megawati and Gus Dur did not get to power a decade before they did. The communist threat was eliminated decades ago. Once this was gone any possible rationale for a brutal autocracy was gone.<br />
To agree with you on one thing though, Graham &#8211; Kalau ada orang Indonesia yang baca-baca ini, silahkan menulis. Saya mau baca tulisan engkau. Juga ada banyak orang Australia yang ingin baca tulisan oleh orang Indonesia tentang Presiden Suharto, kalau sukanya atau tidak.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-433374</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433374</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Of course Australia did.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not sure just claiming we did means we did - I&#039;d be inclined to agree with GregM.

It may or may not be relevant but I did a number of Indonesian history honours subjects at Uni and was taught by Robert Cribb who&#039;s probably one of the best informed Australian students of Indonesian history, culture and politics. That was a long time ago, and I&#039;m not claiming any great expertise, but I was interested to read what he had to say in the Fin today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Of course Australia did.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure just claiming we did means we did &#8211; I&#8217;d be inclined to agree with GregM.</p>
<p>It may or may not be relevant but I did a number of Indonesian history honours subjects at Uni and was taught by Robert Cribb who&#8217;s probably one of the best informed Australian students of Indonesian history, culture and politics. That was a long time ago, and I&#8217;m not claiming any great expertise, but I was interested to read what he had to say in the Fin today.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham Bell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-433371</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433371</guid>
		<description>GregM [50]:
Pig&#039;s what??   Of course Australia did.  That sounds to me like a variation of the Nurenburg Defence. 

You seem to have ignored the influence of former Colombo Plan students and of Radio Australia inside Indonesia - that influence was never measured in raw numbers alone.

Indonesian Lurkers:
An invitation .... Silahkan menulis .... we would like to read your points of view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GregM [50]:<br />
Pig&#8217;s what??   Of course Australia did.  That sounds to me like a variation of the Nurenburg Defence. </p>
<p>You seem to have ignored the influence of former Colombo Plan students and of Radio Australia inside Indonesia &#8211; that influence was never measured in raw numbers alone.</p>
<p>Indonesian Lurkers:<br />
An invitation &#8230;. Silahkan menulis &#8230;. we would like to read your points of view.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: GregM</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433345</link>
		<dc:creator>GregM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433345</guid>
		<description>Graham, I don&#039;t think anything Australia did had much consequence in propping up Suharto and therefore delaying democracy in Indonesia. Indonesia has its own peculiar logic and we are small players in the complex puppet play that is their society. We have been very lucky with the way events have developed in Indonesia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graham, I don&#8217;t think anything Australia did had much consequence in propping up Suharto and therefore delaying democracy in Indonesia. Indonesia has its own peculiar logic and we are small players in the complex puppet play that is their society. We have been very lucky with the way events have developed in Indonesia.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham Bell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433336</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433336</guid>
		<description>j-p-z [42}
Yeah, alright, not absolutely inexplicable.  The Imperial Japanese did get an awful  fright when the combined Mongolian and Soviet force gave them a bloody nose in 1939 but those Black Dragon Society blokes who wanted to grab the raw materials of Siberia before striking South were proved right - eventually.

Mark [48]:
Yep.

GregM [45]:
Imperfect but a democracy nonetheless - and if we hadn&#039;t been so enthusiastic about propping up Suharto, it would have become a democracy on it&#039;s own efforts generation earlier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>j-p-z [42}<br />
Yeah, alright, not absolutely inexplicable.  The Imperial Japanese did get an awful  fright when the combined Mongolian and Soviet force gave them a bloody nose in 1939 but those Black Dragon Society blokes who wanted to grab the raw materials of Siberia before striking South were proved right - eventually.</p>
<p>Mark [48]:<br />
Yep.</p>
<p>GregM [45]:<br />
Imperfect but a democracy nonetheless &#8211; and if we hadn&#8217;t been so enthusiastic about propping up Suharto, it would have become a democracy on it&#8217;s own efforts generation earlier.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433297</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433297</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;that we had the ability to make it into a democracy.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indonesia, as I&#039;ve often argued, demonstrates well that (imperfect) democracy has a better chance of taking root and developing over time when driven by forces largely indigenous to a particular nation rather than by some arrogant Western presumption that you can export democracy via war or other means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>that we had the ability to make it into a democracy.</p></blockquote>
<p>Indonesia, as I&#8217;ve often argued, demonstrates well that (imperfect) democracy has a better chance of taking root and developing over time when driven by forces largely indigenous to a particular nation rather than by some arrogant Western presumption that you can export democracy via war or other means.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433296</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433296</guid>
		<description>Whoops, that&#039;s I &lt;i&gt;don&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; believe I made any assessment....
&gt;
PS If I did I was being slack like just now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops, that&#8217;s I <i>don&#8217;t</i> believe I made any assessment&#8230;.<br />
&gt;<br />
PS If I did I was being slack like just now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433294</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433294</guid>
		<description>Greg - I believe I made any assessment of Indonesia&#039;s capacity to develop into a strong democracy, bleak or otherwise. I simply objected to the notion that Australia would be blamed for the past authoritarian iniquities of Suharto et al and that we had the ability to make it into a democracy. 
&gt;
I have noted, gladly, that Indonesia&#039;s coming along nicely as a democracy. Thumbs up and smilety faces all &#039;round.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg &#8211; I believe I made any assessment of Indonesia&#8217;s capacity to develop into a strong democracy, bleak or otherwise. I simply objected to the notion that Australia would be blamed for the past authoritarian iniquities of Suharto et al and that we had the ability to make it into a democracy.<br />
&gt;<br />
I have noted, gladly, that Indonesia&#8217;s coming along nicely as a democracy. Thumbs up and smilety faces all &#8217;round.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: GregM</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433281</link>
		<dc:creator>GregM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433281</guid>
		<description>Sorry about the stroppy reponse Adrien. However I should point out that Indonesia is now a democracy with an elected Parliament and an elected president, chosen in what are generally considered to be free and fair elections. We hardly need to organise regime change to introduce democracy for them. There has also been significant reform reducing the power of the military including removing the police force from army control, removing military seats from Parliament and scaling back the &quot;dual function&quot;. Meanwhile their civil society culture is developing with the judiciary taking steps towards more independence and less corruption. They are heading in the right direction.
 
As to us fighting a war against them, well God forbid, because if we won the country could easily fall apart, leaving a dozen or more East Timors to our immediate north and a vengeful Java. I don&#039;t think however that the size of the military, most of which is dedicated to performing garrison duty across the archipelago, is the relevant consideration. Their navy is the poor cousin, made especially so by B J Habibie&#039;s harebrained idea of blowing their budget in the early nineties buying the obsolete East German navy off the newly united German government, which had it earmarked for scrap, without considering the suitability , or lack thereof of a navy built to operate in the Baltic Sea for operations in the tropics. No navy and you don&#039;t control much in an archpelagic nation.

I don&#039;t have as bleak an assessment as you do of Indonesia&#039;s capacity to develop into a transparent civil societybut they are heading in the right direction, albeit with a hell of a long way to go, and I&#039;d never expect them to achieve the levels of business and public sector probity of say New Zealand or Norway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry about the stroppy reponse Adrien. However I should point out that Indonesia is now a democracy with an elected Parliament and an elected president, chosen in what are generally considered to be free and fair elections. We hardly need to organise regime change to introduce democracy for them. There has also been significant reform reducing the power of the military including removing the police force from army control, removing military seats from Parliament and scaling back the &#8220;dual function&#8221;. Meanwhile their civil society culture is developing with the judiciary taking steps towards more independence and less corruption. They are heading in the right direction.</p>
<p>As to us fighting a war against them, well God forbid, because if we won the country could easily fall apart, leaving a dozen or more East Timors to our immediate north and a vengeful Java. I don&#8217;t think however that the size of the military, most of which is dedicated to performing garrison duty across the archipelago, is the relevant consideration. Their navy is the poor cousin, made especially so by B J Habibie&#8217;s harebrained idea of blowing their budget in the early nineties buying the obsolete East German navy off the newly united German government, which had it earmarked for scrap, without considering the suitability , or lack thereof of a navy built to operate in the Baltic Sea for operations in the tropics. No navy and you don&#8217;t control much in an archpelagic nation.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have as bleak an assessment as you do of Indonesia&#8217;s capacity to develop into a transparent civil societybut they are heading in the right direction, albeit with a hell of a long way to go, and I&#8217;d never expect them to achieve the levels of business and public sector probity of say New Zealand or Norway.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433209</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433209</guid>
		<description>Greg M
&gt;
1. I disagree. It&#039;s debatable. Our armed forced are dwarfed in number by the Indonesians (I think something like 10 to 1). But we have a  technological superiority. I doubt however we could defeat Indoenesia in a war fought to effect a change of regime and political culture. If you don&#039;t believe me take a meeting in Baghdad sometime. There&#039;s some people trying to do that there; they&#039;ve got some muscle so I&#039;ve been told. And they&#039;re finding the going a bit tough. If you can lay out a plan whereby Australia takes on Indonesia and is able to defeat their military and institute democracy well we&#039;d love to see it.
&gt;
2. True. Realized my fuck-up but I&#039;d posted already. Lazy, sorry.
&gt;
3. A pedantic response to an obviously glib point. I didn&#039;t mean it literally. I meant that Indonesia has a tributary culture in which certain elite families dominate and corruption results. Absence of clear property rights, rule of law and all the other impediments to the development of an open market economy. Am I right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg M<br />
&gt;<br />
1. I disagree. It&#8217;s debatable. Our armed forced are dwarfed in number by the Indonesians (I think something like 10 to 1). But we have a  technological superiority. I doubt however we could defeat Indoenesia in a war fought to effect a change of regime and political culture. If you don&#8217;t believe me take a meeting in Baghdad sometime. There&#8217;s some people trying to do that there; they&#8217;ve got some muscle so I&#8217;ve been told. And they&#8217;re finding the going a bit tough. If you can lay out a plan whereby Australia takes on Indonesia and is able to defeat their military and institute democracy well we&#8217;d love to see it.<br />
&gt;<br />
2. True. Realized my fuck-up but I&#8217;d posted already. Lazy, sorry.<br />
&gt;<br />
3. A pedantic response to an obviously glib point. I didn&#8217;t mean it literally. I meant that Indonesia has a tributary culture in which certain elite families dominate and corruption results. Absence of clear property rights, rule of law and all the other impediments to the development of an open market economy. Am I right?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433128</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433128</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Suharto’s record is much more complex than just corruption and brutality - I guess most Indonesians would, apart from their natural politeness and respect, credit Suharto with providing a competent and stable government that rescued Indonesia from the mess that Sukarno had made.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Like all reasonably-managed autocracies, provided you&#039;re in with the majority group and keep your mouth shut, life is not too bad under them.  It&#039;s just if you&#039;re not, or start to ask rude questions, that you start to run into trouble.

To draw a parallel, most Chinese I met seem quite happy with their lot at the moment - which is fine, because the ones I met are all educated city types who are doing very well out of the economic expansion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Suharto’s record is much more complex than just corruption and brutality &#8211; I guess most Indonesians would, apart from their natural politeness and respect, credit Suharto with providing a competent and stable government that rescued Indonesia from the mess that Sukarno had made.</p></blockquote>
<p>Like all reasonably-managed autocracies, provided you&#8217;re in with the majority group and keep your mouth shut, life is not too bad under them.  It&#8217;s just if you&#8217;re not, or start to ask rude questions, that you start to run into trouble.</p>
<p>To draw a parallel, most Chinese I met seem quite happy with their lot at the moment &#8211; which is fine, because the ones I met are all educated city types who are doing very well out of the economic expansion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: j_p_z</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433115</link>
		<dc:creator>j_p_z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433115</guid>
		<description>Graham Bell: &quot;...the inexplicable decision of the Imperial Japanese not to strike North...&quot;

If I remember rightly, the Japanese actually studied and considered that option pretty carefully, and even sent a few experimental patrols into Soviet turf, to probe their defenses.  (Some Japanese writer even did a novel about it later, I think.)  They seem to have concluded, whether rightly or wrongly, that it wasn&#039;t a good cost/benefit risk, at least until after they&#039;d consolidated their other positions.  I think it turned on a consideration of respective armored units to infantry/raw manpower ratios.  Whether they judged accurately I cannot tell, but it wasn&#039;t inexplicable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graham Bell: &#8220;&#8230;the inexplicable decision of the Imperial Japanese not to strike North&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>If I remember rightly, the Japanese actually studied and considered that option pretty carefully, and even sent a few experimental patrols into Soviet turf, to probe their defenses.  (Some Japanese writer even did a novel about it later, I think.)  They seem to have concluded, whether rightly or wrongly, that it wasn&#8217;t a good cost/benefit risk, at least until after they&#8217;d consolidated their other positions.  I think it turned on a consideration of respective armored units to infantry/raw manpower ratios.  Whether they judged accurately I cannot tell, but it wasn&#8217;t inexplicable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham Bell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433110</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433110</guid>
		<description>Russell[40]:
It&#039;s just a basic human thing.  Adoring &quot;The Strong Leader&quot; and ascribing to him all sorts of magical deeds and marvellous qualities is usually encouraged - even if covertly - by whoever is in power at the moment as a way of amusing the Lower Orders and diverting them from their present troubles; used wisely, it can help the current rulers retain power.  

Usually, the worse the former Strong Leader, the greater the adulation.   For example:  The very articulate Menzies is seen now as the man who gave us the illusions of stability and prosperity and not as the divisive dunderhead who derailed the economy.  Or, Stalin, the great warrior - who just happened to send Hitler an open invitation to come in an kill millions of good Russians and whose miserable hide was saved only by massive Allied intervention, the raw courage of individual Russians and by the inexplicable decision of the Imperial Japanese not to strike North; the rehabilitation of Stalin is very handy for the Russia&#039;s current power-holders.  And the same goes for Tojo and Kaiser Wilhelm II and all the rest.   Now it&#039;s the turn of Saddam Hussein and Suharto.

So, stick around: if you want your ingrown toenails cured or your lucky numbers for next month&#039;s lottery [hang on, isn&#039;t that harum?], just take yourself to Suharto&#039;s Grand Mausoleum and all will be well for you .... don&#039;t dawdle though, just in case the boys from Bamayan turn up to redecorate the place in their own inimitable way.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell[40]:<br />
It&#8217;s just a basic human thing.  Adoring &#8220;The Strong Leader&#8221; and ascribing to him all sorts of magical deeds and marvellous qualities is usually encouraged &#8211; even if covertly &#8211; by whoever is in power at the moment as a way of amusing the Lower Orders and diverting them from their present troubles; used wisely, it can help the current rulers retain power.  </p>
<p>Usually, the worse the former Strong Leader, the greater the adulation.   For example:  The very articulate Menzies is seen now as the man who gave us the illusions of stability and prosperity and not as the divisive dunderhead who derailed the economy.  Or, Stalin, the great warrior &#8211; who just happened to send Hitler an open invitation to come in an kill millions of good Russians and whose miserable hide was saved only by massive Allied intervention, the raw courage of individual Russians and by the inexplicable decision of the Imperial Japanese not to strike North; the rehabilitation of Stalin is very handy for the Russia&#8217;s current power-holders.  And the same goes for Tojo and Kaiser Wilhelm II and all the rest.   Now it&#8217;s the turn of Saddam Hussein and Suharto.</p>
<p>So, stick around: if you want your ingrown toenails cured or your lucky numbers for next month&#8217;s lottery [hang on, isn't that harum?], just take yourself to Suharto&#8217;s Grand Mausoleum and all will be well for you &#8230;. don&#8217;t dawdle though, just in case the boys from Bamayan turn up to redecorate the place in their own inimitable way.  <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-433073</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/27/suharto-dies/#comment-433073</guid>
		<description>This remark by Robert &quot;For some unaccountable reason, Suharto’s image in Indonesia seems to have been somewhat rehabilitated in his dotage.&quot; is interesting but no one here has tried to explain it. 
Suharto&#039;s record is much more complex than just corruption and brutality - I guess most Indonesians would, apart from their natural politeness and respect, credit Suharto with providing a competent and stable government that rescued Indonesia from the mess that Sukarno had made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This remark by Robert &#8220;For some unaccountable reason, Suharto’s image in Indonesia seems to have been somewhat rehabilitated in his dotage.&#8221; is interesting but no one here has tried to explain it.<br />
Suharto&#8217;s record is much more complex than just corruption and brutality &#8211; I guess most Indonesians would, apart from their natural politeness and respect, credit Suharto with providing a competent and stable government that rescued Indonesia from the mess that Sukarno had made.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
