Victoria’s tabloid media knows its target market well. Former North Melbourne football star Wayne Carey’s run-in with the law has received saturation coverage down here. According to reports, Carey initially called the police to ask them to remove a woman from his property, but when the police arrived Carey refused to let them in, and allegedly then assaulted the police officers, prompting them to use capsicum spray to subdue him.
The future of Wayne Carey’s media career is no particular interest; what’s more interesting about this incident, and other recent, heavily publicised incidents, is what it seems to reveal about police usage of capsicum spray as a weapon.
Capsicum spray - an aerosol canister that sprays a stream of something like tear gas - was introduced in Victoria in 1995, after a spate of police shootings of disturbed individuals, many armed with knives or other sharp implements. Material dating back this far generally isn’t available online, but this extract from an Age article from the time should give some idea of how the spray was promoted:
The chief commissioner, Mr Neil Comrie, yesterday defended the decision to allow the force to be the first in the country to carry the spray, saying it was an alternative to firearms.
“If, in the exercise, we save one life through the use of this spray then I think it is a worthwhile exercise. I see no breach of civil liberties,” he said.
While it’s impossible to know exactly went on at Wayne Carey’s apartment a couple of nights ago from limited media reports, you’d have to wonder whether any lives were at risk before the police officer concerned whipped out the capsicum spray. Combined with the recent incident where the spray was used in the stands of the Australian Open tennis tournament, you’d have to wonder whether the use of the stuff has extended well beyond the initial purpose it was sold to the public for a bit over a decade ago. Like tasers in the USA, you’d almost wonder whether it’s been transformed from a second-last-resort lifesaver to a routine compliance tool.
Undoubtedly, being a police officer is a tough, sometimes risky job, and I can fully understand that they don’t want to be punching bags. But, that being said, before the Victoria police are let anywhere near a taser gun as our charming Police Association would like, it seems like an appropriate time for an inquiry into how police are using the tools available to them, and whether they might be reaching for the spray a little too readily.
Exactly right, Robert, there is extensive evidence of the misuse of non-deadly-force weapons in the US as compliance tools.
Once police forces have the ability to quickly end an argument, some individuals within them find the use of such tools irresistable
“But, that being said, before the Victoria police are let anywhere near a taser gun as our charming Police Association would like, it seems like an appropriate time for an inquiry into how police are using the tools available to them, and whether they might be reaching for the spray a little too readily.”
Too bloody right.
As a North Melbourne supporter for over 30 years, basically as long as I remember I don’t mind seeing wayno get a bit of a touch up, but come on.
Having met him, I’m not surprised the coppers used the spray, he’s huge, but come. Its not a weapon of first resort, unfortunately thats how it seems to be used.
I wonder if someone is going to end up charging the police for using it on them at some point? I haven’t seen what happened with that incident in the crowd at the tennis but I am wondering how using that spray in those circumstances is a reasonable use of force.
Yeah, it doesn’t sound like the Wayne Carey I know to assault a police officer - he’s such a nice young man. Isn’t it better that they pull capsicum spray than their previous strategy of pulling a gun at the drop of a hat?
The point is that the scope of usage seems to be extending far beyond a substitute for drawing a weapon; I’m starting to get suspicious that they’re being used in much broader circumstances than that.
Spot on, Robert. Didn’t the tennis incident involve the officers withdrawing from the ‘confrontation’ in order to get some capsicum spray, then coming back and spraying people with it? Hardly self-defence.
As I understand the Carey incident, Carey himself called the police to remove a woman from his flat, and neighbours could hear a woman clearly distressed. When the police turned up, he refused to let them in and then allegedly assaulted them. If that happened, I think there may be cause for capsicum spray to subdue him, but we don’t know the details. I agree the Aussie Open incident appeared heavy handed, but it does not follow that the Carey incident was overkill, especially if he assulted the officers.
I’m not saying the Victorian police are great - I think the real problem is corruption and a lack of independent overview like in Qld and NSW. I’m just saying that if Wayne Carey assaulted me, I’d use capsicum spray.
While I’m generally with Robert and Ben Eltham…
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The copper who got to blast Carey in the face must be an object of envy in the station.
The correct way to do it is to shoot them, then capsicum spray the corpse.
Given that the Police usually do not have right of entry, he may have a case against the police involved for assault and false arrest.
I’m pretty sure they do if someone’s rung 000 or if they suspect an offence is being committed, Doctor.
Capsicum spray from orbit, TWOP, as you know, is the only way to be sure.
Kymbos: I’m not drawing any conclusions on the specifics of the Carey incident. Maybe it was entirely justified.
My concern is more general.
If the concern is general, Robert, then I’d say you ought to be less concerned about Tasers and electric shock weapons than with gasses. You can’t zap a crowd.
Does anyone know whether capsicum spray would give a green salad a bit of zip? My last one was a complete failure but unfortunately I didn’t have a copper among my guests so I couldn’t get inside information!
Liam. Don’t say that. Someone will be even now working out how to zap a crowd. And yes from orbit would be good. All I know is that you need to cover them with spray, like spraying a cockroach white with insecticide.
Queensland looks to be getting tasers; O’Gorman is unhappy, QPU president says the officers will be happy to have these new tools at their disposal.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/polce-taser-rollout-open-to-abuse/2008/01/29/1201369090335.html
DavidG - you don’t win friends with salad.
Also, capsicum spray would be all heat and no aroma, but don’t let me stop you from trying this intriguing recipe idea. Nor from reporting the results. It’s sure to work better than my night-stick and tear gas fricasee.
Your wish is the US Department of Defense’s command.
And to think the NSW coppers get by with a lowly water cannon.
“If the concern is general, Robert, then I’d say you ought to be less concerned about Tasers and electric shock weapons than with gasses. You can’t zap a crowd.”
But you can zap a crowd with a ionised gas…
“Weapons that can incapacitate crowds of people by sweeping a lightning-like beam of electricity across them are being readied for sale to military and police forces in the US and Europe.” http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6014
One of them is from “Xtreme Alternative Defense Systems” who present themselves as “a leader in less lethal weapons”
To paraphrase, “If they have it, they’ll use it”
The Irish Guarda & UK polds managed without guns despite 40 years of terrorists with bombs & AK47s.
Everyone:
What’s all the fuss?
No need to put Police through all that time-wasting training. Just let them loose with capsicum spray.
See, Training-&-Skill in a can.
Now, do you want your capsicum spray by the six-pack or by the slab? Fullstrength or light?
Graham, I’m told by a copper mate of mine that getting sprayed with capsicum is part of the training. Ditto getting zapped with tasers.
He says that both are horrible, and that tasers are more horrible while it’s happening but that capsicum is horrible for longer.
Amphibious, that’s only technically true.
The Gardaí were able to get along without sidearms only because their Government successfully exported, through their 1920s Civil War, the problems of their island North of the border and across the Irish Sea. In Ulster the British Army were and remain ever-present, backed up by all of their paramilitary friends in their variously coloured incarnations. I’d much prefer to be sprayed than shot with a “rubber” bullet.
BTW, the PIRA generally eschewed the Kalashnikov, and preferred the more easily purchased Belgian FAL and the US AR-15, where they didn’t simply use pistols. That gave rise to one of their more memorable slogans of the ’80s—”with the ballot in one hand and an Armalite in the other”—which Eamon Collins likened to riding the electoral rapids, using the stock of the gun as a paddle.
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Pavlov’s Cat, I’m surprised the police union doesn’t step in. No, actually, no I’m not.
Liam - the problems of their island North of the border and … In Ulster -
As I assume you know, Northern Ireland is NOT Ulster, which is a province of nine counties.
When the brits carved out the 6 Counties to ensure, among other strategic interests, a Loyal (sic!) and dependant workforce for Harland & Wolfe shipyards they excised the predominantly catholic counties of Donegal, Monaghan & Cavan to ensure dominance, little things like no vote without a property qualification, which was kinda difficult to acquire w/o a decent job; not a chance in the aforementioned H&W, the only real earner.
The charming ‘B’ Specials (armed police) were disbanded only relatively recently and the catholics now get a vote (which they tend to piss up against the Sinn Fein wall)but the point remains, there wouldn’t have been a problem if the North weren’t a confessional entity. Sinn Fein can barely get local councillors elected and lost their only TDs in the last general election.
And the Gardai is still unarmed.
Liam, I think the point is to make sure they understand exactly what they’ll be doing to another person with these weapons, rather than, like, gratuitous torture or anything.
Mind you, I haven’t asked him about the union.
That’s a fair argument, PC, although in another age, and in other armies and police forces, they used to make sure recruits experienced pain quite so that they’d pass along the treatment to the intended victims of the State’s instrument.
Exhibit 1: Four hundred years of Russian repression.
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True story: I found myself last week in Canberra Airport at lunchtime with little to do before my flight, so, I passed my hours with a bought ham, cheese and tomato sandwich and two cans of beer. At the next table were half-a-dozen uniformed and suited AFP officers, deep in the middle of an historical discussion. Was Ned Kelly a folk hero of resistance or a cynical murderer? The facts suggest both interpretations and Peter Carey hasn’t helped. The consensus seemed to be that Ned Kelly’s gang in a 2008 Glenrowan would probably have been taken without loss of life on either side.
I call that a win for chemistry, Freud, the action movie genre, Australian disgruntled citizens everywhere, and naturally, the AFP.
Not asking your friend’s opinion of the police union is probably wise.
Everyone:
This is Larvatus Prodeo, a marketplace of ideas - some more outrageous than others. Okay, try this one for size.
Justice in Australian is slow, expensive, uncertain, fickle and sometimes downright unjust. It can be many months, sometimes years, between when an offender commits a crime and when, if judged guilty, any punishment can be imposed.
If police had a free hand to use capsicum spray and tasers at the slightest hint of trouble - before too long, there would be a significant number of people throughout the community who had direct painful experience of these weapons immediately after they had committed their offences. These people would quickly spread word to their chums of their own nasty experiences in unpolite encounters with the Police. Sooner or later, almost all those in the general public most likely commit offences would know what to expect if they stepped out of line - and so, perhaps, think twice about doing so.
Stalinist? Perhaps. Will it be effective in preventing crime? Who knows …. but the present method of holding a punishment lottery a long time after an offence is committed certainly doesn’t deter many.
Happy debating, folks.
What Graham Bell said = hammer + nail *wham*
Tasers can now be bought by the average punter in 40 plus States in the US. Unbelievable.
Of more concern in the Australian context was the comments made by the Queensland Police Union’s Denis Fitzpatrick on the ABC News who, in support of the Tasers, said police get ’spat on all the time’. Apparently, we need Tasers to prevent spittin. Golly gosh.
Becsuse they can, they will. Saves time, effort or whatever. Very sad.
What Graham said = ends justify means?
I think you might have used that all-purpose comment before, pub steve. A dozen times, no, a case.
Graham, consider also that if capsaicin and other lachrymatose sprays were to be in more widespread and therefore arbitrary use, the criminal classes, otherwise known as the armed general public, would start to bring forward countermeasures. Police units known to freely use pepper sprays would be attacked far more freely, and people’d simply get their revenge in first. Wouldn’t you be more likely to react in advance if you thought the police were likely to spray first, questioning later? I’m disappointed in you, especially, that you can’t see the principle of arms races working.
Laura at #5 as usual has the critical phrase. It’s the role of police forces anywhere to withdraw as a matter of course from confrontation, and to regroup later on, with plans involving the most effective/efficient, and probably least, use of force.
Graham Bell has the right analysis wrong conclusion.It is difficult for me to be fair minded,and that is my intention.Firstly only two incidents of capsicum spray are mentioned,and not a longitudinal type of approach.Secondly, to be engaging capsicum spray against cricket fans and footballers suggests something to me,which could be a warning not to people that are in print here,but those sort of people who simply will not accept that sports events and stars are a function of a lot of publicity,that often as not,doesnt necessarily make people effective as citizens,or, effective even as critics of Police themselves.After all, the contributors here must of recognised by now, that no sickening knock on the door before dawn has happened,with the likelihood of the wallopers checking out your baked beans on toast supply.Being real,might be the sports fan,and the footballer and Police when they all acknowledge how strange human emotions are,and that thing on the shoulders.I wouldnt be opposed to a review of effectiveness of tools,and reasons for use, by Police.My opinion is Tasers are a bad idea,and produced by a deceitful company,with links to unsavoury attitudes.And if I was a Australian Police Officer,I would as a matter of common sense,about my health regard the testing of such on myself,as a matter of disdain,and seek medical analysis for a number of weeks regularly after testing..and not be self-assured but want objective evidence that it hasnt harmed health in the manner used.If that was standard practice,and, some cynicism out of respect for self as officer to this tool then when it had to be used,if that is ever the case, then appropriate attitudes and concern would follow.The Corey incident in Melbourne,and, beer bottle episodes elsewhere suggest to me at least,that, Stalinist attitudes are found in the victims of self-appointed critics of Policing where evidence of behaviour is really often intolerable.For wouldnt a self righteous street wise individual lay in waiting against the Taser being used,or effectively disengage Police by Beer bottle throwing etc!?.Dont get me wrong,I wasnt a happy complier with Police instructions when young,but, that isnt an excuse on my part to exhibit a anti-youth sports fan or footballer attitude because I cannot now find the importance of some behaviour.And building standards need to improve,or someone on that night of the footballers incident should of gotten out their loud hailers as neighbours and asked”Do I mind my own business ,or, could you shut up or if neither one of you have rung Police..do you mind if I say SHUT UP!?.”Eh!Not sure of the law on that one..perhaps I need a second baked bean tin and a string,and throw it through a window.Empty Edison reporting for baked bean duty Sir!
I had the same reaction as wpd at 28, and my usual disgust at our useless police minister whose whole approach to anything is to do whatever the police union wants. She actually sat in the front row of the meeting last year when they were considering marching on parliament to protest at the horror of having one of their number actually charged over a death in custody.
I tend to favour Graham Bell [26] and Steve at the pub’s [27] approach.
However, if someone has a better idea, not involving letting people get away with antisocial and violent behaviour, let’s hear it.
Or, if Wayne Carey took a punch at you, what would you do?
Perhaps there is an alternative to caps spray and tasers, when people get violent. Perhaps we can explore those?
Liam [30]:
Aaah. So you did notice.
Sadly, some offenders will go for the biggest cudgel around anyway regardless of what the Police use. Others, of course, are more interested in getting away with their crimes than in getting into a confrontation with Police; these are the ones who would avoid escalating violence like the plague - unless forced into it.
I think ALL Police Ministers cave in to the Police Unions for the simple reason that to stand up to them would be political sucide - as Police Bashing by pollies can produce stuff like this.
https://www.wapolun.org.au/getfile/471.pdf
Yes, Graham, I noticed the flaw in your argument. Thank you for pointing that out again.
It’s in the police’s interest in any situation to go with de-escalation rather than confrontation. Criminals who choose stealth aren’t those to whom non-lethal weapons are directed; they can be arrested at 3am the next morning. So called non-lethal weapons are explicitly designed to make police confrontation at the point of violence easier and more certain, and less accountable for the individual officer. Aerosols, gasses and zapping weapons are designed to solve a non-problem.
I say—as does half a century of quite orthodox policing doctrine—that confrontation itself is the thing to be avoided. Every copper I’ve ever met says the same thing, calm them down, calm them down, calm them down, and then when you’ve finished, calm them down.
I certainly wouldn’t look first to the umpire, Marks. But then I’m a Sydney supporter, not North Melbourne or Adelaide.
I believe the technical term is “Verbal Judo”, Unfortunately, there are some officers who thing they are in NYPD Blue and think violence solves things.
I don’t agree. For a start, you don’t get much more supine a minister than Judy Spence.
That’s absolutely typical. No debate, no consideration of the implications, no research - they ask for something and they get it the same day.
Spence admitted she didn’t know how much it would cost, but apparently committing unknown amounts of public money is fine when the police union asks for it. It shows the ad hoc nature of her “decision making”.
Secondly, Beattie himself showed that you can stare down the police union and win.
In my view, the cops would be much better off if the public knew they had to argue their case. Instead we get ludicrous situations where they’re given powers that police commissioners haven’t asked for. This is also in the context of an upcoming election in the QPU, where the incumbent executive has a cloud hanging over it with accusations of corruption made against the former president, and a group running against them on the grounds that they’re unrepresentative of their membership.
Sorry, here’s the link to the Qld report:
http://news.theage.com.au/qld-police-to-get-tasers-from-july/20080129-1oqs.html
I have to agree with MarkS (33)
Sometimes offenders have to be taken down, taken down immediately and taken down hard. A non-lethal and (more or less) non-violent method such as taser or capsicum spray is difficult to improve upon.
I am all for verbal judo, but it is not always possible to use it.
That’s absolutely typical. No debate, no consideration of the implications, no research - they ask for something and they get it the same day.
Down here in Mexico, I think the media drives these things a lot more.
The police union have been pretty ineffective when it comes to getting police new hear. I’m told that many police have had back injuries from the belts and kit they’re supposed to wear, yet attempts to get better equipment have fallen on deaf ears. Ditto a number of station calling for extra resources.
On the other hand, the coppers here enjoy friendly, reciprocal relations with the press, particularly the more tabloidy one. Consequently, every report of a protest or incident is met with shrill Murdochian calls for more toys (and greater powers) for police. Some of these calls have been effective. I suspect this tactic is more powerful than the union, insofar as it is an attempt to shame the Chief Commish and relevant Minister into action.
I am a 5′2 woman. Last year, whilst intoxicated I (apparently ha ha !) assaulted police. In order to subdue me they use capsicum spray which BLOODY hurt. In the situation other alternatives were available. Giving the police use of these ‘weapons’ will just allow for more police corruption. Also, Queensland Police Service is calling for mandatory jail terms of 3mths for anyone who assaults police (opposition to table it in parliament this year). How ridiculous - what about people who are intoxicated (like I was) and suffer from alcoholism and black out ? What about the mentally ill ? What about people who are provoked by police. — Hey Bill, did you see that. Yeah mate, he just spat on ya. Mate your going to jail ! Why don’t I hit you with the capsicum spray too !
What do the police expect when they join the force ?
To swan around all day and not encounter dangerous situations ? The coppers in the UK don’t even carry guns. Come on - what’s that got to say for the Australian Police Force !
Speaking of the Police UNions and their use of Public Sympathy, here are some pics from a recent Rally here in WA forf better Pay etc.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/devar/sets/72157594237998756/
Christie, you’ve touched on something there, re police action, and assaulting an officer as a charge (oh, lets start with offensive language and why not chuck in resisting arrest.) A 3 month stint for being drunk and possibly obnoxious is unreasonable. Sounds like police use of force in your case was too.
Growing up in Melbourne’s Western suburbs in the 80s police would often provoke young people of certain socio economic and racial backgrounds, and I noticed the same thing while working in country towns throughout the Riverina. It was about asserting their power over a situation, whether it was warranted or not. Perhaps things have changed, but if not I can see the police using these non lethal weapons to replace the kick in the backside (or phonebooking) that was once thought to be an effective way of dealing with upstart young troublemakers. Is that what we want from our society?
In some cases heavy handed policing staightened young people out, but more often than not it had the opposite effect. Capsicum spray may be ok but but tasers are not necessarly non lethal weapons, as some tragic recent cases have shown. In the US the trend is that tasers are used as compliance tools rather than weapons of second last resort. I can see serious problems developing with that attitude.
Also as far as the public taking countermeasures. Has anyone seen the videos on you tube … you know the ones that show how to cannibalise a microwave and build something resembling a portable Active Denial System?
Anyway there will be “Don’t tase me Bro” T shirts on sale in Nimbin for all you hard up Queenslanders sometime soon.
SATP: then you won’t have any trouble with an inquiry into the use of capsicum spray to establish what circumstances it is actually being used in, will you?
Liam [36];
Right …. but Frank Calabrese [post 37] does have a point …. and I myself have said many times that Police recruits should be put through deprogramming to rid their minds of thousands of hours of watching “police???” shows on TV.
Christie [42] and Jules [44]:
IMHO, what you are talking about here is lazy and sloppy policing by people whose vocation lies elsewhere. Again, it comes back to good training or the lack thereof.
I’m for Graham at comment 26! Great idea!
Let’s send the police around to each primary school (even the private ones) and have them taser and capsicum spray each student at a school assembly.
Surely no policeman or woman would be attacked ever again!
Re Judy Spence and the QPU. Spence is aiding and abetting the regrowth of a police culture whose toxicity was exposed by Tony Fitzgerald. It saddens me to say that the QPU gives Unionism a bad name.
At times, Spence even undermines the Police Commissioner.
Capsicum spray is moderately and persistently unpleasant while TASERs runs a small but non-zero chance of killing people. Probably in the same ball-park as a beating around the head and face with a baton. The problem is, it doesn’t feel the same to the officer inflicting the injury. I certainly would have less gut-wrenching guilt about quietly zapping someone than beating them senseless, whatever the real risk.
The links below are a quick google worth rather than a reasoned and extensive research. Mind you, 50 000 volts to the 17yo I saw last week with a pacemaker…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/12/earlyshow/main648859.shtml
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/16/2093588.htm
After the WayneCa became notorious in Melbourne because he informed a stranger that her “t**s were too small” outside a nightclub, a friend I greatly admire happened to see him in a pub with his mates. He was sitting down. She accidentally spilt her drink all over him. It was worth the price of a drink, she reckons.
Yeah, I know: horrid behaviour, a whiff of the vigilante group…. but you know how hard it can be, ladies, when you’re tottering through a bar on your high heels, not to spill a drink advantageously.
I note that Aunty is reporting that WC is also wanted for the assault of two US cops.
Of course, that is no problem because 1) they are from the US and 2) cops.
Ambigulous [50], I think I know the lady to whom you were referring. I take it the drink was her usual hydrochloric acid and white king punch?
Marks at #51: so they are. Apparently this is what he does when you don’t spray him.
There is a risk of accidental death from rolling out tasers across Queensland. What if the device was applied to someone with a heart condition? Someone could also fall and receive fatal head injuries after being hit by a taser? I’m sure a police officer who caused the death would eventually escape punishment if such an incident occurred. But that is not the point. Christie @ 42 says that UK police don’t even carry guns. This is something that Australian media have completely missed. It is cultural differences like this that could point to more appropriate strategies for police to deal with confrontational situations.
PC: Wow.
Carey really is an arse-face, isn’t he? Wouldn’t see a Port or Freo player acting like that.
PC [52} thanks for that.
In using his head as a battering ram to damage the police car, I note two things: first, if he had sustained fatal injuries in so doing, it would have been a ‘death in custody’ (police officers under suspicion again), and second, a can of capsicum spray vs a damaged police car.
Seems to me that had the US coppers used capsicum spray, they would have lowered the likelihood of self harm and saved costs.
I appreciate the concern a lot of people have with the use of batons, tasers, capsicum spray and firearms, and agree that the aim should be eliminate, or at least minimise, harm. However, sometimes it is better to use these tools to prevent even worse harm as the ABC report PC linked indicates. I bet that WC sobered up very ill indeed after using his head as a battering ram.
The use of capsicum spray by the Victorian Police has some shades of xenophobic/racist undertones.
There was lots of hubbab about its use at the Australian Open. But it has been used inappropriately at the soccer as well, and instead of having writing in The Age, that the police should apologise to fans, it was reported by the media as another ‘Sokkah riot’.
Victorian Police is culturally ill-equipped to handle organised support, seeing it as a threat as a potential riot ready to occur at any moment. That is why they over-react with the caspicum spray creating mayhem and making things much worse.
WC also glassed his girlfriend in that Miami incident. Considering what a great footy player he was its pretty sad to see what a poor excuse for a human he turned out to be. He’s certainly no Glen Archer, (and gven the way Carey flinched when Arch shaped up to him in his first game vs the Roos, Wc’s scared of him too.)
I let him use my magic buddha to focus on winning the 96 flag. Poor thing, no wonder its been stressed.
RM is right, an inquiry into the acceptable use of Capsicum spray, and any other non lehal weaponry is a good idea. Its no good righting off poor police behaviour as lazy and sloppy or putting it down to bad training. The guidelines have to be there and they have to be savagely enforced. Unlike footy players, who make poor role models generally, police behaviour should always be above reproach. These are the people in our society with the power to use violence on our behalf and to protect us from the worst of ourselves.
There is no excuse for poor policing, and bad policing is one of the lowest forms of human behaviour. Its not as bad as some things, but its pretty low.
For a start they need to be taught to behave like Terry Pratchett’s Captain Carrot.
Do you reckon? I don’t think there would have been a lot of difference between before and after.
With the sole exception of his “insensitive” (= moronic) comments last year about a teammate’s depression, every single one of Carey’s public troubles has been about women and the abuse thereof, whether emotional, sexual or otherwise physical. I don’t usually believe in kicking the down any more than in trashing the newly dead, but in Carey’s case, as in PP McGuinness’s, I’m willing to make an exception.
I’m reminded of something Sally Carey said not long after her husband’s lavatorial infidelities became press fodder. She told Carey’s manager that it was his (ie the manager’s) fault, and her own fault, and the club’s fault, and the fans’ fault, for continuing over a long period to let Carey believe he could do anything he liked. What would have hurt him most in Miami would have been the remarks of the Lieutenant Schultz who was involved in his arrest there: “We did not know who Carey is. For our cops this was just another day at the office. He was just another out-of-control thug.”
Detailed report is here.
It wouldn’t have hurt Carey’s head at all. He was using the least sensitive and useful part of his body.
Sam at 15 and Dr “TASERs runs a small but non-zero chance of killing people” S at 49:
Here’s a short clip of police murdering a clearly mentally disturbed Polish man at an airport.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv6jR-9Z4mw
This is what we can expect soon in Australia. Absolute justice for the “criminally insane” on a horror movie called the 6 o’clock news.
Guido, soccer fans really need to leave their flares at home. I remember going to an AFL match with an English friend who was amazed that such a loud and noisy crowd could be so peaceful in comparison to English soccer. She couldn’t believe that opposing fans could sit with each other and not punch each others’ lights out.
I’m not saying that Australian soccer is necessarily like that, but their PR problem is certainly real. I wouldn’t feel safe going to a match and the link you posted shows why.
Fine: I’ve been to several Melbourne Victory matches. Seemed safe enough to me…
I’m sure that’s true, Robert. But soccer still suffers from an image problem i.e. gropus of people letting off flares and belting each other up.
I’ll speak in favour of the A-League as well; in my experience the only difference between an AFL crowd and a football crowd is that there are more children at the round-ball game. I imagine that’s because of the ticket price difference as much as anything.
Flares happen, but only in the supporters’ bays (3 and 23, directly behind each goal, at the SFS). I’ve yet to see a fight (or even crossed words) between rival fans at an A-League match, something I’ve seen often go unreported at AFL and rugby league games. Let’s not even talk about the cricket.
Disclaimer: season ticket holder for Sydney FC and Sydney Swans
The only time I ever felt any menace at an NRL game was the Eels v Canterbury back in 1999. Walking back to our car, a few fellow fans felt lucky that the Bulldogs won or there would have been trouble that night.
Since then I can’t remember any trouble at a game I’ve attended. And there are (especially when there is a game at Gosford) quite a few children in the crowd.
DavidG [47]:
It was irony on my part …. tempting though your suggestion may be.
Dr S [49]:
For a very small percentage of the population, a good whiff of capsicum spray could be fatal. Still, if the paramedics can get on the scene fast enough, it would give them something to chat about in meal breaks for weeks.
Fine [61];
If nobody is going out fishing - what are fans doing with flares at a soccer game? Back in the Olden Days we cheered, clapped, yelled, whistled. made impolite gestures …. or played. No flares needed [they would have spoiled the fun]..
Why, achieving enlightenment, of course.
/ Dusts off “chemical munitions operator” certification (about 6 years out of date)
I have trained in the various types of chemical and baton types of usage. I have been hit with both in training, including CS (tear) gas and pepper spray.
In my humble opinion there is much less chance of seroiusly injuring or killing someone with the use of chemical s than batons.
The only areas “safe” to strike with batons are the larger “fleshy” parts of the extremities, heads, collarbones, backs and trunk are right out. (Im going through what is supposed to happen, not what does happen)
It is possible to stun a person using hydraulic shock by striking the thigh area properly, Id consider this much more risky than the taser (I have never used or trained in those so that is just opinion).
Pepper spray is much quicker to act and is able to be directed in a stream unlike CS which disperses badly and affects to many people for practical police usage. CS however is great for reemoving people from rooms or riot control, and with a bit of water people recover quickly.
One major difference between the police and my old mob was we HAD to have a nurse on the scene for immediate treatment for any complications.
26. Graham Bell
From conversations I have with a cpouple of coppers that is exactly what is going on in many cases. The inability of the justice system to remove serial offenders for even short periods of incaceration has led to a worrying streak of vigilanieism among those who should know better.
Idealy any use of force should warrant a small independent review with the power to reccomend diciplinary/training/ or futher investigation.
It really is amazing that in 2008, even with a Rudd government, we are discussing taming the human beast with batons, electric shocks, and vicious sprays, etc.
Doesn’t say a lot about our evolution as supposedly intelligent creatures, does it?
Marks @ 51
Nuh, full strength beer I think. If it had been White King it might have cleaned up his act….? or maybe not
Pavlov’s @ 58: and I’m reminded of what Sally Carey’s Dad said at the time: “If he needs sex so badly, why doesn’t he go to a prostitute?” It would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall at the next family get-together…
Are there any other Aussie sportsmen who think they can just do what they bloody like? Be a horrible little wrong ‘un over and over again, enough to set your head spinning…?
Wayne Carey intensifies the Crass Struggle
Fine, I invite you to go to an A-League match and see that the level of ‘threat’ is the same or even less than other sports. I suspect from your comments you haven’t been to one and I would think that your fears may be laid to rest if you do.
I felt much more unconfortable at a one day cricket match than any A-League matches I attended (with my nine year old son).
Just briefly before I put this thread back on topic I want to briefly say that the issue of flares is a phurphy. Flares do not equal violence. Lots of crowds that use flares are not violent. In fact I would suggest that the most ‘violent’ crowds in football were in England in the 1970’s where the use of flares is unknown. I object to flares because they are meant to be marine emergency equipment designed for the open sea, rather than crowded places.
However Fine, your comments link well to my argument. “Soccer” (if we want to use that term) may have this ‘violent’ reputation which in the Australian context is totally unfounded. Incidents may occur at any gathering of people, especially when there are sporting passions involved. My argument (and that was also my main argument in the blog I linked) is that unlike more ‘mainstream sports’ like AFL football or cricket (where incidents occur - just see the Boxing Day test last year)soccer is treated differently, because of this undeserved reputation.
I discussed the incident with the police during the Melbourne Sydney game. I went to that match with my son, had a great time and I was shocked that there TV channels reported ’soccer riots’ as their main news.
My argument links to the fact that the Victorian Police, as shown by what happened at the tennis, seem to have a strong prejudice against support that (a) has ‘ethnic’ connotations and (b) is organised, vocal and in groups.
By its nature there is more segregation in soccer matches because traditionally many supporters like to be together and chant, jump etc. But this does not mean, like some members of the Victorian Police (and maybe yourself) that it is more violent.
And yes fans of other teams do mingle. If you go to Level 3 at Telstra Dome you see fans of different teams in the same beer queues at half time.
The connection with capsicum spray is that in that instance I states a relatively small incident (as with the tennis) escalated unnecessarily because of its use. It is panicking, it is lazyness on the part of the Police. As I said in that blog this excitable teenagers are such a small minority that should be dealt much more effectively than spray capsicum on their faces.
Mole [68]:
Thanks. Can understand the frustration of some coppers - maybe we should be putting a dose of salts through the creaky fickle court system so that we do get “Justice swift and sure” - thereby reducing that frustration.
Idiosyncratic severe reactions to capsicum spray are a real cause for concern - and basic first-aid training is not enough to avoid becoming the unfortunate star attraction at an inquest, in parliamentary question time and on talk-back radio. In other words, allowing Police to carry capsicum spray without also having thorough training in how to cope professionally with severe reactions to its use is a recipe for disaster - and for ruined careers.
DavidG [69]
True.
Wonder who else gets bindi-eyes in the backs of their knuckles whenever they go for a walk?
.
All this carefree use of capsicum spray is not doing much for Melbourne as Australia’s capital of fine living, dining and shopping.
You’d think they’d at least offer sun-dried tomato or oven-roasted garlic and black olive flavours as well. Or for anti-whaling protests, at least a piquant hint of Warrnambool acquacultured yabby mousse.
“we are discussing taming the human beast with batons, electric shocks, and vicious sprays, etc.”
Yeah well, joking aside, I defy you to find any large community in human history where the authourities didn’t feel the need at one time or another to sally out and have at the mob. Sure electric shocks and vicious sprays are nasty. But remember they used to use ruthless Swiss mercenaries with razor-sharp pikes or half-arsed local militia issued with live ammo for the first time off a firing range.
Look, anyone who wants to take the authorities on in the Western streets these days is either a guerilla theatre impresario looking for good media coverage or stupid or quite possibly both.
However, as for ordinary citizens getting zapped or sprayed because badly-trained cops can’t or won’t see any other way to deal with the situation, well that’s why the good Lord gave us camphones, vidcams, cameras everybloodywhere.
You just need one well tubed grab and you’ve got police commissioners resigning and Cabinet Ministers backing and filling. Remember the bloodiest riot in LA history was triggered by 120 seconds of homeshot tape.
As usual, the French have a word for it. Sousveillance.
Maybe they could try that tying people to a big ball of string thing from the ads instead as an alternate method of crowd control?
What, no sweet-chilli spray?
When police bullets start flying, it makes me wonder, even though as a Victorian I’ve been socialised to expect “police shootings”. [A friend from Adelaide said years ago, “In South Australia we would call that ‘murder’, not ‘a shooting’”].
What I can’t understand is this: what has happened to the good old-fashioned incapacitating shot to the leg, or the hand. Why aim at the head or chest? {likewise with a fleeing car, shoot the bloody tyre flat in a chase, not the rear window}
Getting back to close encounters of the WayneCa type, but on a footpath, say: we’ve had some shockers in Melbourne, where the shootee had only a knife or samurai sword. Try to calm him, lads. As a last resort try to wound him in the leg if you must, boys! It is universally accepted that he’ll be upset and drop his sword quick-smart. It’s not as if he’s going to “return fire” with his carving knife or fishing knife or sword.
How’s this aspect going in other States? Are any coppers trained in shooting to wound? Do they achieve this feat in practice?
mick @ 76
or the Chaser waiter: “Would you like (green) pepper with those handcuffs, Sir?”
Ambigulous: to be fair, trying to pull off that kind of disabling shot, with a pistol, when under considerable stress, in chaotic conditions, at a moving target, is very very difficult. That’s why cops are not trained to do it.
It’s not like TV.
“Only” a samurai sword??
Um, no it isn’t.
I once asked a policeperson this very question and he replied that if said target is that out of control in the first place, there’s a good chance that he will be so hyped up on adrenalin (and probably other things) that he will simply keep on coming at you with the samurai sword, even if you have managed to pull off what would in those conditions be an amazingly difficult shot.