Sorry for jumping to a hasty conclusion. I also made the glib assumption that “JG” was you.

KW:
For instance, Robert Manne could buy into the Aboriginal history debate not only without a PhD in history but with no postgraduate qualification of any kind. He has two bachelor degrees.

JG:
For example that psycho Cultural Warrior Robert Manne – who has become the Glenn Close of Australian History wars, and has no research training in any discipline, let alone a Ph.D or Research Masters in History.

The original song is made up of 4-line stanzas each of which has alternating lines of catalectic iambic heptameter (lines 1 and 3) and iambic pentameter (lines 2 and 4), which is to say, 13 syllables and 10 syllables respectively, with a stress pattern that goes da-DA da-DA da-DA etc etc etc.

Does it? I don’t know about that PC. Y’see y’eve got tae sing it like lassie. This is how it goes when ye sing it:

Oh Danny boy the pipes, the pipes are ca-aw-ling
From glen to glen and down the mountainside

That’s actually 12 syllables and then 10. Now what does mine do:

Oh Adrian, your poetry’s appaw-aw-lling
It boasts not wit if you can’t manage rhyme

12 syllables followed by 10.
>
Now perhaps I’m sensationalising a quote outta context here so let’s pick another couplet from the famous Gaelic verse shall we:

But come ye back when summer’s in the me-eh-dow
Or when the valley’s hushed and white with snow

Again 12 followed by 10. Incidentally the words spoken are 11 followed by 10. And mine:

But come ye back when you have learned the me-ee-ning
Of the word ‘glib’ and what ‘reason’ endows

Naturally of course the couplet betwixt these does have a 13 followed by 10 syllable metre:

The summer’s gone, and all the flowers are dy-i-ing
‘Tis you, ’tis you must go and I must bide.

So perchance you’re correct. Let’s look at the corresponding lines in mine shall we:

But if you must, please observe the metre’s ti-i-ming
‘Tis off, ’tis off please go and learn to write

OMG!!!! ‘Tis correspondant fine. 13-10:
>
Haven’t read Mr Fry’s book, tho’ I gave it a quick glance i’th’ bookstore once upon a summer morn. However ’tis irrellevant. If Stephen Fry said “Oh Danny Boy” follows the metre you outlay he should learn to count. It’s in the music. Speakin’ o’ which. Johhny Cash never learned to read a note: but he wrote many a fine one.
>
Now to my poor namesake’s doggerel:

Oh Johnny boy, oh Johhny boy, please just go

It’d really be better if it were:

Oh Johnny boy, oh Johhny boy, I wish you’d go

I could re-write Adrian’s entire song so that not only was it musically correct, like mine (regardless the non-applicable dodecahedronmetre)and rhymed (shall I read from the thousands of examples where assonance is used thus?) but also poked fun at John’s real faults not those asserted like his being ‘glib’ or lacking ‘reasoning’. One doesn’t lack reasoning if one disagrees with you. And being bitchy isn’t the same as being glib.
>
But apart from all that I’m sure you’re right.

Dactyls–R–Us.

Yeah but, see, you were trashing Adrian’s efforts, which is the ONLY reason I’m bringing it up. If you’re going to criticise and give marks to other people, then in your own version, ‘well enough’ isn’t good enough, see.

– ‘Rhyme’ doesn’t rhyme with ‘write’ (that’s assonance, a match of vowel sounds — here the long ‘i’ — which is not the same thing as rhyme). Bite, bight, cite, fight, height, kite, light, mite, might, night, quite, rite, right, site, sight, tight, white, alight, indict, incite, affright and the Isle of Wight all rhyme with write, but rhyme does not.

(NB neither do parasite, Vegemite or stalactite. For a ‘perfect’ rhyme, the primary stress of a multisyllabic word needs to be on the rhyming syllable.)

– ‘Endows’ doesn’t rhyme with ‘now’ (it’s got to be ‘nows’ or ‘endow’, neither of which makes sense).

– You’ve changed the rhyme scheme between stanzas 1 and 2. The original song has, all the way through, a regular ABAB rhyme scheme. Your version doesn’t have this, or indeed any, rhyme scheme.

– The original song is made up of 4-line stanzas each of which has alternating lines of catalectic iambic heptameter (lines 1 and 3) and iambic pentameter (lines 2 and 4), which is to say, 13 syllables and 10 syllables respectively, with a stress pattern that goes da-DA da-DA da-DA etc etc etc.

Your version does not have this structure.

In the wildly unlikely event that you or anyone else is interested enough to pursue this futher, I recommend Stephen Fry’s The Ode Less Travelled: Unlocking the Poet Within (Hutchinson, 2005).

Also, Windschuttle should be ashamed. Ahem.

See Katz C&P directly not only quotes but interpretation from a book I know well, Peter Novik’s That Noble Dream: The “Objectivity Question� and the American Historical Profession. It’s on p.73 in my copy.

Nonsense.

I’ve never read Novik’s book. The quote comes via E. H. Carr. If memory serves me correctly, I followed links to a webpage that had the original Acton lecture.

The articulation of the argument is my own, as influenced by E. H. Carr. There is nothing particularly original about my opinion, and I don’t claim there is anything original. That opinion is broadly enough based to be commonplace among historians and students of history.

If Novik claims this idea as his own (and I am not saying he does) then he is committing plagiarism.

On the other hand, JG might have stopped acting like a 12 year old by then.

He’s not 12..he’s 16 or 17. Note the times when he descends upon the blog like a nasty miasma…schools out!

3. Of a speaker or writer, of the tongue, etc.: ‘Well-oiled’, ready and fluent in utterance. Of language: Characterized by fluency and readiness. Chiefly in contemptuous use, implying lack of thought or of sincerity.

I assume this was the implied definition?

And YOUR reading comprehension skills my friend are verging on the NSW public primary schools! NOWHERE have I dished Manne’s academic achievements, and I never would. They are much more impressive than mine!! I was merely restating the tone and positions adopted by OTHERS is a broader public debate.

And I agree with you. From what I know of both graduates and the syllabi, Oxford B.Phils are among the most challenging and respected degrees in the world; especially the B.Phil, a 2 year course-work plus thesis graduate degree in philosophy.

But come ye back when you have learned the meaning
Of the word ‘glib’ and what ‘reason’ endows
And I’ll be here to mark your dog’rel preening
Oh Adrian, oh Adrian, ’nuff said for now.

Also, talking shit on a listserv is hardly new or in any way limited to cultural studies academics.

And talking shit on blogs is hardly new or in any way limited to John Greenfield.

Still, perhaps he can join the queue with Brendan. In 12 years time, Jo might apologise. On the other hand, JG might have stopped acting like a 12 year old by then.

“Argument”?

But come ye back when reason has returned
Or Catallaxy has closed and all your friends have gone
LP will still be here in sunshine or in shadow
Oh Johhny boy, oh Johnny boy, please just go.

But if you stay, when all your words are merely carping
And your ideas are hollow and bereft
You’ll come and find the place where you’re not welcome
And wonder why you’re treated as a troll.

Klaus K

Now, now darling, I hoped you knew me well enough to know that I was deliberately baiting you, hoping you’d jump on that!

Ooh, sounds like someone’s feeling a bit left out of all the excitement over the past couple of days. Very well then.

On behalf of all Australians I apologise for John Greenfield.

There, that should stop your little bottom lip quivering shouldn’t it.

Swipe? You mean as in “steal?� Let’s see. The only similarity you note is that W wrote a 100,000 word Masters thesis. Could you explain to me how I might have responded to the incorrect claims of others above about W’s academic qualifications that would have you not try and paint me as an underhanded thief and plagiarist? For starters, this is a blog, not an academic journal. Secondly, I have stated such an uncontroversial well-known fact that naturally I had read SOMEWHERE.

Jo, your intention was malicious and unethical. Because I am able to show how misinformed and ignorant the REAL slanderers are by using actual facts, YOU, rather than do the honourable thing and post, “thanks John, I did not know that. It seems that many LPers and other History Warriors from Robert Manne to Stuart Macintrye, Dirk Moses, blah, blah are wrong,� chose to try and discredit any contribution of mine. Ordinarily, I would just roll my eyes and move on, but you have so much form with this sleazy tactic. It is all very well for you to run around as “jo� slandering people who post using their real names, isn’t it?

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/04/cultural-elites-dont-exist-study-finds/#comment-425549
And it worked. Kim sneered, “Surely, jo, ol’cut’n’paste wouldn’t be cut’n’pasting!

jo/Katz

And then Mr. “I never post on LP without first C&Ping from wikipedia first “Katz.� Katz’ atrocious ethics are even more egregious given he well knows that he and I had a very civil discussion about this exact topic over Xmas when there was no moderation.

Thanks for the Windy/Greenglass concordance Jo.We have here in Greenglass a bizarre example of plagiarism of fact twisted to serve his peculiar compulsions. And doesn’t Greenglass can make Windy seem balanced and judicious by comparison? Terribly revealing.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/12/22/saturday-salon-124/#comment-422351

Yet perfectly OK for katz

Lord Acton opined in 1898 that in the projected Cambridge History:
Waterloo must be one that satisfies French and English, Germans and Dutch alike; that nobody can tell, without examining the list of authors, where the Bishop of Oxford laid down the pen, and whether Fairbairn or Gasquet, Liebermann or Harrison took it up.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/12/29/saturday-salon-125/#comment-423737

See Katz C&P directly not only quotes but interpretation from a book I know well, Peter Novik’s That Noble Dream: The “Objectivity Question” and the American Historical Profession. It’s on p.73 in my copy.

Or this one on “bourgeois tragedy�
Wikipedia: “Bourgeois Tragedy (German: Bürgerliches Trauerspiel) is a form of tragedy that developed in 18th century Europe. It was a fruit of the enlightenment and the emergence of the bourgeois class and its ideals. It is characterized by the fact that its protagonists are ordinary citizens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_tragedy

Katz: “The bourgeois sense of identity, as expressed in artistic form, first saw light of day as trauerspiel — bourgeois tragedy.
This development began in England in the lateish 17thC and achieved perhaps its highest form in Germany in the 18thC.
Perhaps the most important unifying element of trauerspiel was the depiction of the protagonist as an outsider, excluded from public affairs. In response to that marginalisation the protagonist found his self-actualisation in the private virtues. Thus the bourgeois was establishing a genuine counter-culture of privacy, probity, thrift, loyalty to family, sentiment in contradiction to prevailing aristocratic and feudal norms.�
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/01/04/cultural-elites-dont-exist-study-finds/#comment-426079

There are stacks of other examples from all sorts of LPers. As you say jo, “not exactly a hanging offence.� However, it is wrong for you to do this to me when I have not even “swiped� anything, where your allies do it all the time.
You DO owe me an apology.

KW:
For instance, Robert Manne could buy into the Aboriginal history debate not only without a PhD in history but with no postgraduate qualification of any kind. He has two bachelor degrees.

JG:
For example that psycho Cultural Warrior Robert Manne – who has become the Glenn Close of Australian History wars, and has no research training in any discipline, let alone a Ph.D or Research Masters in History.

Actually jo, I DID “swipe� this. From myself! During the same December, 2007 discussion with Katz, Paul Burns, and Klaus, here is what I argued:

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/12/22/saturday-salon-124/#comment-422334

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/12/22/saturday-salon-124/#comment-422346

I posted:
Katz
I broadly agree with you, except for your final sentence which is a direct parroting of Robert Manne, which I PRAY, you have done unwittingly. Like a lot of those historians W criticises, Manne continued to move the goal-posts of his tawdry and tragically unsuccessful attempt to dicredit W. The last time I checked, Manne had moved onto the “pitiless� argument. While I agree that empathy, etc. are crucial for POLITICAL resolutions to current social problems, I am not at all persuaded that “empathy� is even remotely required for first class historiography.
This gets far too close to Edward Said’s not-so-subtle demands that only the victims can right their own history, etc. OTOH, I do agree with the truism, “it is easier to attract bees with honey.�
But when all is said and done, you will not find me going into bat, for the alternative interpretations W has provided thus far. OTOH, I do not reject them out of hand, either.
Oh gawd, now I am REALLY saying like an undergraduate who wants to be so balanced lest he pisses off whoever is grading his paper.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/12/22/saturday-salon-124/#comment-422352

And where did I “swipe� this opinion of Manne. No one in particular. You see, I form my opinions by reading and debating with people. Like most people this tends to build a reservoir of facts, data, information, even poems and songs in one’s long-term memory. But off the top of my head try the “Cultural Studies Association of Australasia� listserv. I mean REALLY try it iff you want to see ethically-bereft types in full flight. For example, try this strategising session on “hoaxes� that academics should wage against Windschuttle to discredit him. Jo, are YOU a subscriber to this group? Have you decided to adopt this strategy on me a mere undergraduate student, for chrissakes?

http://lists.cdu.edu.au/pipermail/csaa-forum/Week-of-Mon-20050328/000726.html

Also check out The Bulletin by of all people, Catharine Lumby, where she had to retract false slanders against W’s supposed lack of academic qualifications. Elsewhere the twit raves about Robert Manne as ‘Australia’s leading intellectual.’ Or try any number of tragic outpourings about “real historians� by History Warrior Kommandent Dirk Moses in OLO or any of the books he has contributed chapters to and journals he has written.

Windschuttle, history warriors and real historians

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3320

JG:
He is also the author of the best book on historiography ever written by an Australian. The Killing of History, first published in 1994 has old over 50,000 copies outside Australia. Windschuttle’s books are among the most debated of any living Australian academic in fora as wide as academic journals, prestigious literary journals, MSM, broadsheets, and appear on advanced undergrad and masters reading lists across the globe.

You will find the same data and arguments in Whitewash, MacIntyre’s History Wars, Inga Clendinnen. So get off your ass and read something, go to school, get an education! For the love of god! There have been dozens of articles on Manne versus Windschuttle’s qualifications. Another book I have read Is History Fiction by Commie postits Curthoys and Docker note that “over 100 substantial articles� appeared immediately following Fabrication. So get off your ass, go to school, read something, get an education! For the love of god!