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	<title>Comments on: Borrowing money to build coal just got harder</title>
	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: Marks</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437717</link>
		<dc:creator>Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437717</guid>
		<description>Oh, and did anyone notice what happened in the water industry when demand outstripped supply?

Affected Governments are building energy intensive desalination plants.

So much for &lt;I&gt;imposed&lt;/I&gt; demand management.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and did anyone notice what happened in the water industry when demand outstripped supply?</p>
<p>Affected Governments are building energy intensive desalination plants.</p>
<p>So much for <i>imposed</i> demand management.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437647</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437647</guid>
		<description>wbb: yep.  Current generation biofuels are a tax rort, next-gen ones are still lab projects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wbb: yep.  Current generation biofuels are a tax rort, next-gen ones are still lab projects.</p>
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		<title>By: wbb</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437644</link>
		<dc:creator>wbb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437644</guid>
		<description>And don't none of you be looking at biofuels for an alternative:

&lt;b&gt;Co.----------------------------------                        IPO------------------Jan 2008 --Gain&lt;/b&gt;
Australian Renewable Fuels May 2005@$1.00 $0.045    –95.5%
Australian Biodiesel Group Dec 2005@$1.00 $0.021    –97.9%
Sterling Biofuels..................          Sep 2006@$1.00 $0.079    –92.1%
Natural Fuel.........................               Dec 2006@$1.50 $0.11     –92.7%
Australian Ethanol                  ..................................$0.45 $0.035    –92.2%</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And don&#8217;t none of you be looking at biofuels for an alternative:</p>
<p><b>Co.&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-                        IPO&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;Jan 2008 &#8211;Gain</b><br />
Australian Renewable Fuels May 2005@$1.00 $0.045    –95.5%<br />
Australian Biodiesel Group Dec 2005@$1.00 $0.021    –97.9%<br />
Sterling Biofuels&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;          Sep 2006@$1.00 $0.079    –92.1%<br />
Natural Fuel&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.               Dec 2006@$1.50 $0.11     –92.7%<br />
Australian Ethanol                  &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.$0.45 $0.035    –92.2%</p>
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		<title>By: philiptravers</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437640</link>
		<dc:creator>philiptravers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:38:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437640</guid>
		<description>I think a lot of individuals here are actually all focusing on this issue in a manner,that is both terrible and doesnt then allow for other matters to be considered.Which doesnt mean anyone is actually wrong in their immediate comments,because after all exactly none of us are making the decisions.And people like Iemma and the man chosen by Carr from unemployment to state Treasurer,is everything I actually and honestly hate about the University educated.Some points that rarely get mentioned re the building of,or recycling off to greener coal firing,is the aging population,the need for skilling and reskilling,and an obvious lack of monies in superannuation for those retired and retiring.Then there is community service obligations as a moment of law and judicial process,holidaying people from overseas, some consideration of skilling up our neighbours to the north besides harvest work,and the endless supply of engineers in China and India,who would just love to earn Australian bucks for a while.And the consolation prize for China and India is employment of their educated citizens and thus working alongside others from overseas,some worthy connections.The skill base is just organization,the cost of materials ,can be traded off,or penalty applied.Government can be flexible because law is set by them.Both Iemma and Rudd have taken the easy way out..the unions would also be still working,as training staff,and go-betweens with planners and engineers.Only Green type of objections are then worthy.Picking up a few trade related skills in later age can then be a paid working bonus,often these people come with their own caravans.Menshed Movement and Babyboomer sites already are dismayed by the loss of interest in these age groups as being useful citizens,women unexcluded Africans as well.We seem to be better at mathematics in comparison with the Iemmas...........</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a lot of individuals here are actually all focusing on this issue in a manner,that is both terrible and doesnt then allow for other matters to be considered.Which doesnt mean anyone is actually wrong in their immediate comments,because after all exactly none of us are making the decisions.And people like Iemma and the man chosen by Carr from unemployment to state Treasurer,is everything I actually and honestly hate about the University educated.Some points that rarely get mentioned re the building of,or recycling off to greener coal firing,is the aging population,the need for skilling and reskilling,and an obvious lack of monies in superannuation for those retired and retiring.Then there is community service obligations as a moment of law and judicial process,holidaying people from overseas, some consideration of skilling up our neighbours to the north besides harvest work,and the endless supply of engineers in China and India,who would just love to earn Australian bucks for a while.And the consolation prize for China and India is employment of their educated citizens and thus working alongside others from overseas,some worthy connections.The skill base is just organization,the cost of materials ,can be traded off,or penalty applied.Government can be flexible because law is set by them.Both Iemma and Rudd have taken the easy way out..the unions would also be still working,as training staff,and go-betweens with planners and engineers.Only Green type of objections are then worthy.Picking up a few trade related skills in later age can then be a paid working bonus,often these people come with their own caravans.Menshed Movement and Babyboomer sites already are dismayed by the loss of interest in these age groups as being useful citizens,women unexcluded Africans as well.We seem to be better at mathematics in comparison with the Iemmas&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald Raygun</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437556</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald Raygun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437556</guid>
		<description>Adrien, not entirely but it is good news for renewable energy and the planet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrien, not entirely but it is good news for renewable energy and the planet.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mc</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437515</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437515</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=""&gt;That is if we have &lt;i&gt;unaccountable&lt;/i&gt; governments who aren’t tied to the &lt;i&gt;electorate&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Corrected for intent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite=""><p>That is if we have <i>unaccountable</i> governments who aren’t tied to the <i>electorate</i>.</p></blockquote>
<p>Corrected for intent.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437491</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437491</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Could be worse. Could be all about fractional reserve. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

The fractional reserve thread is likewise crawling slowly toward the 3000 comments mark. There are wagers on which will get there first.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Good news. The age of cheap electricity is coming to an end 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Well it's not &lt;i&gt;entirely&lt;/i&gt; good news now is it. In fact it's actually shithouse news in many ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Could be worse. Could be all about fractional reserve. </p></blockquote>
<p>The fractional reserve thread is likewise crawling slowly toward the 3000 comments mark. There are wagers on which will get there first.</p>
<blockquote><p>Good news. The age of cheap electricity is coming to an end
</p></blockquote>
<p>Well it&#8217;s not <i>entirely</i> good news now is it. In fact it&#8217;s actually shithouse news in many ways.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald Raygun</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437490</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald Raygun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437490</guid>
		<description>Good news.  The age of cheap electricity is coming to an end and with it we'll see less urban sprawl, more public transport and a healthier environment.  That is if we have decent governments who aren't tied to the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good news.  The age of cheap electricity is coming to an end and with it we&#8217;ll see less urban sprawl, more public transport and a healthier environment.  That is if we have decent governments who aren&#8217;t tied to the past.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Craig Mc</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437470</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437470</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=""&gt;John Humphreys of LDP fame calculated that a broad-based carbon tax would lead to something like a 10-20c in fuel prices. An &lt;i&gt;outgoing&lt;/i&gt; government would introduce it just before an election, knowing that electricity prices would not rise until later.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Corrected for reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite=""><p>John Humphreys of LDP fame calculated that a broad-based carbon tax would lead to something like a 10-20c in fuel prices. An <i>outgoing</i> government would introduce it just before an election, knowing that electricity prices would not rise until later.</p></blockquote>
<p>Corrected for reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Leinad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437468</link>
		<dc:creator>Leinad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437468</guid>
		<description>Mods, please delete post #1 and ban everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mods, please delete post #1 and ban everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Norton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437467</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437467</guid>
		<description>

&lt;blockquote&gt;Outstanding. Now if only John Humphreys or someone will come in I can actually learn something. The Carbon Tax thread at Catallaxy is months old has two and half thousand comments and we’ve hardly discussed it all.
&gt;
At the monment it’s all about Iraq!!!!&lt;/blockquote&gt;



Could be worse.  Could be all about fractional reserve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Outstanding. Now if only John Humphreys or someone will come in I can actually learn something. The Carbon Tax thread at Catallaxy is months old has two and half thousand comments and we’ve hardly discussed it all.<br />
><br />
At the monment it’s all about Iraq!!!!</p></blockquote>
<p>Could be worse.  Could be all about fractional reserve.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437466</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437466</guid>
		<description>Outstanding. Now if only John Humphreys or someone will come in I can actually learn something. The Carbon Tax thread at Catallaxy is months old has two and half thousand comments and we've hardly discussed it all. 
&#62;
At the monment it's all about Iraq!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Outstanding. Now if only John Humphreys or someone will come in I can actually learn something. The Carbon Tax thread at Catallaxy is months old has two and half thousand comments and we&#8217;ve hardly discussed it all.<br />
&gt;<br />
At the monment it&#8217;s all about Iraq!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Norton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437465</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437465</guid>
		<description>In the real world smart governments won't introduce carbon taxes which are sufficiently badly designed to beggar people and economies.  They will do things such as making the taxes revenue-neutral (e.g. using it to fund firms and individuals to reduce their carbon footprint) or using the revenue to phase out other taxes (e.g. payroll tax in Australia).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the real world smart governments won&#8217;t introduce carbon taxes which are sufficiently badly designed to beggar people and economies.  They will do things such as making the taxes revenue-neutral (e.g. using it to fund firms and individuals to reduce their carbon footprint) or using the revenue to phase out other taxes (e.g. payroll tax in Australia).</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437464</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437464</guid>
		<description>Hey an opportunity to discuss a carbon tax without playing 'where's the evidence' with GMB.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey an opportunity to discuss a carbon tax without playing &#8216;where&#8217;s the evidence&#8217; with GMB.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437459</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437459</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;However, in the real world electorates won’t vote for parties that will beggar them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

John Humphreys of LDP fame calculated that a broad-based carbon tax would lead to something like a 10-20c in fuel prices. A smart government would introduce it just before an election, knowing that electricity prices would not rise until later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>However, in the real world electorates won’t vote for parties that will beggar them.</p></blockquote>
<p>John Humphreys of LDP fame calculated that a broad-based carbon tax would lead to something like a 10-20c in fuel prices. A smart government would introduce it just before an election, knowing that electricity prices would not rise until later.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437425</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437425</guid>
		<description>Paul: Diesendorf's not out of the ballpark - most of the studies suggest you can supply maybe 20% of your electricity with wind or other intermittent renewables without buggering things up too much.  But that's not going to shut down a single coal-fired power station.

As to the difference between "can't" and "won't", they are not so straightforward.  Clearly, if we were to go on something akin to a war footing, we could cut our emissions by a great deal very quickly.  But I simply don't see that happening, unfortunately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul: Diesendorf&#8217;s not out of the ballpark - most of the studies suggest you can supply maybe 20% of your electricity with wind or other intermittent renewables without buggering things up too much.  But that&#8217;s not going to shut down a single coal-fired power station.</p>
<p>As to the difference between &#8220;can&#8217;t&#8221; and &#8220;won&#8217;t&#8221;, they are not so straightforward.  Clearly, if we were to go on something akin to a war footing, we could cut our emissions by a great deal very quickly.  But I simply don&#8217;t see that happening, unfortunately.</p>
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		<title>By: wilful</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437407</link>
		<dc:creator>wilful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437407</guid>
		<description>What about new baseload combined cycle coal that 'buys' or otherwise assumes the emissions for a decommissioned Hazelwood, while providing double or triple the electricity? 

That's how I would see a new brown coal generator being built. But nah, they'll all be expensive gas ones, until we run out of gas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about new baseload combined cycle coal that &#8216;buys&#8217; or otherwise assumes the emissions for a decommissioned Hazelwood, while providing double or triple the electricity? </p>
<p>That&#8217;s how I would see a new brown coal generator being built. But nah, they&#8217;ll all be expensive gas ones, until we run out of gas.</p>
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		<title>By: Katz</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437403</link>
		<dc:creator>Katz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437403</guid>
		<description>Seeing these banks have essentially bankrupted themselves through their involvement in the subprime fiasco, I guess they are making a virtue out of financial necessity.

Dirty, big Chinese banks have lots of money looking for a profitable home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing these banks have essentially bankrupted themselves through their involvement in the subprime fiasco, I guess they are making a virtue out of financial necessity.</p>
<p>Dirty, big Chinese banks have lots of money looking for a profitable home.</p>
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		<title>By: Spiros</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437402</link>
		<dc:creator>Spiros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437402</guid>
		<description>It's all a bit of a dilemma for state governments, isn't it?

Keeping the lights on while doing one's bit for climate change is not going to be easy. As for nukes, forget it. The Victorian government can't even dredge Port Phillip Bay without running a nimby Green gauntlet, and that's after an exhaustive environmental study that found it to be harmless. Anybody who thinks nuclear power stations are going to built anytime in the next generation has got rocks in their head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s all a bit of a dilemma for state governments, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>Keeping the lights on while doing one&#8217;s bit for climate change is not going to be easy. As for nukes, forget it. The Victorian government can&#8217;t even dredge Port Phillip Bay without running a nimby Green gauntlet, and that&#8217;s after an exhaustive environmental study that found it to be harmless. Anybody who thinks nuclear power stations are going to built anytime in the next generation has got rocks in their head.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mc</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437395</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/11/borrowing-money-to-build-coal-just-got-harder/#comment-437395</guid>
		<description>Well gee, that might happen under a greens dictatorship.  However, in the real world electorates won't vote for parties that will beggar them.  There will be no odious carbon tax to price coal-fired power generation out of existence unless there's a cheap alternative.  Ever.

It would be a great excuse to start using nuclear power of course, which isn't a bad thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well gee, that might happen under a greens dictatorship.  However, in the real world electorates won&#8217;t vote for parties that will beggar them.  There will be no odious carbon tax to price coal-fired power generation out of existence unless there&#8217;s a cheap alternative.  Ever.</p>
<p>It would be a great excuse to start using nuclear power of course, which isn&#8217;t a bad thing.</p>
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