Wonder no longer whether the Victorian police are using more capsicum spray (as speculated on earlier). According to an Age report on violence in Melbourne’s CBD, its use has become increasingly routine:
Police Association assistant secretary Inspector Bruce McKenzie said the force was under siege and increasingly forced to use capsicum spray to quell brawls in the city.
“As far as capsicum spray goes, I don’t know what our members ever did without it, because we use gallons of the stuff,” Mr McKenzie said.
Whatever else you conclude from these reports, you’d have to say that when police are given new law enforcement tools, they will use them to the fullest extent they find them effective – whatever the original pretext to provide those tools was. That’s not saying that it’s universally a good or bad thing. It’s just noting that it’s the case.
On the subject of the articles themselves – the level of violence in the Melbourne CBD – I can’t add any personal experience one way or the other; I generally don’t feel threatened walking around at night, but then I don’t generally spend much time in Queen Street at two o’clock in the morning. And it’s worth noting that all the parties claiming a crisis have a vested interest in doing so.
The Australian Hotels Association called for a freeze in new CBD liquor licenses – which may or may not reduce the problem with violence but does, without doubt, protect its existing members from competition. The Police Association gets publicity for its desire to equip its members with tasers – and a distraction from the news that the association is allegedly hiring private detectives to “dig up dirt” on the Police Commissioner.
That said, the numbers – as distinct from individual anecdotes, which however disquieting are most often not a useful basis for public policy – do seem to be a problem. Whether it’s got anything much to do with CBD itself is open to serious question. As this longer article states
At the same time, police figures reveal a 17.5% rise in a year in assaults in Melbourne’s CBD. It also emerged yesterday — through data obtained under freedom of information laws by the State Opposition — that crimes against the person more than doubled in 12 Victorian outer-suburban and regional municipalities between 2000-01 and 2006-07.
While the two statistics are certainly not directly comparable, it does suggest that the problem is not so much violence in the CBD, but a growth in violence more generally. Picking on Queen Street’s allegedly bogan bar culture seems to be mistaking a symptom for the disease.
Robert: A corrollary to your first principle: if a tool provides a swifter, surer method of neutralising an offender (or potential offender) the police will favour it over de-escalation by other means.
Meth.
Is capsicum spray much use against a meth rager?
Who knows about effective, but it’s gotta be satisfying, Leinad.
Liam: well the various youtube vids where yanks try it out on themselves are pretty amusing…
“I’m going to try an maintain a defensive posture for as long as possible.” “Ready?” “Arrrgh! Oh god, my eyes!” etc,
Might not subdue them, but it’d have to make them less effective.
Anyhoo, I was just pointing out a possible correlation, beyond the binge-drinkingOMG!!1!1what’s happening to the kids?!?
If I were a copper wanting to reduce nightclub and street violence, and was of a pragmatic bent, maybe I’d be focusing my policing efforts on drugs that seem to correlate with violence (alcohol and amphetamines) and perhaps turning a blind eye to those that are less so (ecstasy).
Not that you could ever say so out loud, of course.
FDB, do you not think the increasing violence is correlated with increased access to and consumption of alcohol?
“increased access to and consumption of alcohol?”
When did this happen?
From the Age article linked to above:
“Victoria’s deregulated liquor laws, which have seen liquor licences increase statewide from 3200 in 1988 to 19,000 now, have reached their ultimate conclusion, which in the case of Queen Street and surrounds, is saturation. One venue alone in Queen Street, CQ Bar, holds more than 7000 people over four floors.”
Kymbos: there seems to be an assumption that these people were busy helping old ladies across the street in the past. Isn’t it possible that they were drinking out at suburban beer barns instead of the CBD?
But those assault figures are themselves compiled by the coppers, who as you point out have every incentive to boost them. All it takes to get a local rise in recorded assaults is a couple of new macho coppers keener on arrests (perhaps accompanied by a capsicum spraying) than calming people down …
The local commander needs to be told by the police commissioner that his pay will depend on a decrease in arrests, rather than on the number of staff he acquires (which, of course, increases with arrests).
Before capsicum spray, trhey shot people, didn’t they?
I just don’t think we can discount the strong association between increased access to and consupmtion of alcohol and anti-social behaviour. There has been clear deregulation in liquor licensing laws in Victoria in recent years involving both packaged liquor and licensed venues (number of, and hours of operation). There is a clear relationship between access to alcohol and risky alcohol consumption. There is also a clear association between excessive consumption and anti-social behaviour.
I don’t think it’s enough to say these are just bad eggs who would be anti-social elsewhere if not in the CBD. To me it seems a bit like saying problem gamblers will find a way to spend all their money on pokies, when we know that increasing access to pokies results in more problem gamblers. There’s a reason why WA has the lowest incidence of problem gambling in the country, and that’s because there are no pokies outside the casino.
There’s more to this picture, but fundamentally, access and availability to a product like alcohol is a strong determinant of the social costs that are caused by it.
Robert, do the suburban beer barns close at midnight or 1am? If so, there’s a reason they’re going to the CBD, and I’d be comfortable in betting that their behaviour gets worse once they do, as they drink more. Again, access and availability = increased harms.
I reckon you might mean King St Robert.
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Speaking as one who is often in the Melbourne CBD on weekends in the wee hours I have to say that that <ithese people are out of their fucking minds.
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Sorry but there’s just some batshit boys out there and they can’t tell the difference between reality and Biggie Smalls. Lats year I actuall expected to witness violence every week-end. The last few weeks has been eerie because I haven’t seen any violence. And I’m talking over the top stuff. I’ve seen mini-riots break out spontaneously. I’ve seen people beaten unconscious and then continue to be kicked. It’s venal.
This just brings tears to my eyes.
Taser terrible pun, Evan.
Especially in Melbourne, and often each other.
Robert Merkel
I am no fan of capsicum spray, tasers, or sniffer dogs. But perhaps the streets that police have to work in are simply more violent and hazardous than in the past. Try walking up Oxford Street on any Friday or Saturday night. The place is so drunkard and violent that zoo keepers would be more appropriate than police.
Robert
Your point about police turning a blind-eye towards ecstasy is very wise. During the 2000 “Millenium” NYE celebrations, Sydney police were told to do just that. From memory, there was only one arrest in the whole city that night!
Where’s “the demon drink” these days?
Melbourne’s the Murder Capital of Australia just ask Chop Chop. Oddly it’s also very civilized. I live within walking distance or most of the Sunshine Boys/Carlton Crew war casualties and have done through most of the shenanegans. Not a problem.
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Our gangsters are polite and considerate gangsters. They know that it’s a residential area and take care to blow each other’s heads off before 10pm.
Geez they’re all getting in on it. This from crikey. Sounds like F…ieldings havin’ fun .
Rudd is claiming binge drinking is a “worsening epidemic” that is “getting out of hand” and needs to be urgently addressed. Steve Fielding, best known for using his PC in Parliament House to Google for p-rn, also thinks it’s a “huge” and “growing” problem, and has got up a Senate committee to consider his private member’s bill to restrict alcohol advertising.
“FDB, do you not think the increasing violence is correlated with increased access to and consumption of alcohol?”
No I don’t. And until I see EVIDENCE that such increases have occurred, I’ll stick with the meth hypothesis. A corellation with alcohol still exists of course, in that on meth it’s possible to still be getting into fights after drinking enough to kill a hippo.
Well, you got that evidence yet fella?
How much is Graeme paying you FDB?
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I reckon it’s a combination of factors: meth, booze, gangster rap, stupid Kajagoogoo haircuts. These lads I tell you. They look like early 80s New Romantic fops and they talk like they got out of jail after doing a 7-15 stretch and have all this frustration because they couldn’t make friends inside on account of they were just too gutteral with the speech.
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It’s the worst of both worlds.
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That said Rio and The Chronic are really great albums.
…and I’m assuming FDB you’ve got evidence that hippos have been drinking themselves to death at Melbourne nightspots? Or did you make that up too?
this blog is getting less scientific by the minute…
Adrien:
Yes, a combination obviously. And your suggested combination including “lifestyle” factors beyond substances is probably right on the money. Dressing like a fey new-waver and listening to DMX are so clangorously dissonant it’d make anyone a bit edgy.
Leinad:
Maybe I have, but that would be unkind. So I never said it.
[stagewhisper] Tabaret [/stagewhisper]
Queen Street is probably a good place to start. Capsicum Spray, Water Cannon, whatever works.
Don’t want to be sprayed? Don’t blue in the street.
But without a savage judicial response, police action is of limited value.
Ok, FDB. You ask for evidence that increases have occurred. Do you mean increases in availability of alcohol? The quote I provided above should account for increased availability in licensed premises (a growth of licensed premises from 3200 in 1988 to 19,000 now). The increase in availability of packaged liquor resulted in the NCC review of packaged alcohol undertaken in this report:
http://www.ncc.gov.au/publication.asp?publicationID=210&activityID=41
“The reported evidence indicates that, other things equal, increased availability of alcohol increases consumption, including binge drinking, underage drinking and
heavy drinking. As a result, other things being equal, acute and chronic medical and social harms increase.” P.31
Do you dispute this evidence, or suggest it is unrelated to the reported increase in violence in Melbourne? Or do you argue that there is no actual increase in violence, only a reported increase? Where’s the data on Meth… fella?
“Queen Street is probably a good place to start. Capsicum Spray, Water Cannon, whatever works.”
The authoritarian, fascist, bully boy approach is always available. And satp, you forgot to mention, “armored tanks”. They proved most effective in changing public behaviour in Tiananmen Square in ‘89.
Ever thought you might be sometimes over reacting to possible situations?
FDB: Holy. Shit. They probably drown menageries.
remind me, which city suffers from the blight of cavernous pokie-stuffed beer barns?
Kymbos – my counter is the rather simple question; when was alcohol ever especially hard to get in Melbourne?
1974. Trying to get a few beers over the Easter weekend. Having to go down to Veronica’s sly grog shop in Little Collins Street Lane. And it cost two dollars a bottle.
I’ve only lived here a few years, so I couldn’t tell you. I don’t think it can reasonably be argued that there hasn’t been an important increase in access in Melbourne, and across Australia – and usually in the name of increased consumer choice.
The point is, you increase availability and you increase harms. Tell me, who takes advantage of 24 hour bottle shops and clubs – responsible drinkers? I can tell you I’ve rarely bought alcohol at 4am responsibly. Sure, shift workers will at times, but the harms done by very drunk people outweigh the benefits of shift workers getting a knock off drink at that time. And if you took away this availability, the avoided costs would far exceed the inconvenience to responsible drinkers.
I’ve drunk myself blind plenty of times at all hours without punching anyone. Maybe by responsible we mean different things?
Sorry, Monica.
Clearly. If your line of responsible behaviour is crossed only at the point of violence, we mean very different things. Enjoy.
Well, that IS what the thread’s about!
*flounces off to bed*
Joe2, have you got a problem? Really?
Ever considered putting a sockinit?
Kymbos: Increased availability of alcohol may be a factor, though I am inclined toward the belief that alcohol is a static factor, regardless of how many pubs/bottleshop there are, & what hours they trade.
The major factor is: The breed of the brute.
This sort of rot got out of hand in the early 1960s in Victoria, and was only pulled into line by a toughening up from the bench. Alcohol & drug were nowhere near as available at that time.
It is a simple risk/benefit equation for the thugs. When the consequences of violent street behaviour exceed the benefits, they will stop.
They may be doing it in the CBD, with little fear of the law (apart from a capsicum spraying & a lecture from a magistrate)
Will savage punishment work? Ask yourself this: Would the same brawling people behave in the same way in the street outside the Rebels clubhouse?
When there were closing hours. Which wasn’t that long ago.
There is no fun in trying to complicate this. It’s as plain as the nose on your face that way more bars, open longer hours, with richer & larger crowds will lead to more drunkeness and violence.
What’s the big deal?
The interesting question is what is to be done. The lock-in rule has been recently implemented in some bars. Seems to me it’s often the disgruntled outside who upon being ejected from one bar and who fail to gain entry at the next cause a fair bit of the bother.
Worst taxi customers I ever had were usually a couple of blokes who’d failed on a Saturday night to achieve their dreams and now on the long expensive trip home, decided it was all my fault. And they were the nice ones. The really bad boys were still back in King Street critiquing the bouncers.
All night beer barns masquerading as hyper-bars like CQ(? RACV club) could be closely examined. Which would appear to be happening. Chuck a book of technicalities at them. No loss to anybody.
Blaming the police (or CBD residents) is, in this case, shooting the messenger.
Esoteric speculation about aggression per se being on the rise is interesting but not necessary.
Too much alcohol. Does it every time.
Ok, well… Robocop, or… less alcohol. Given that your name is ‘Steve at the Pub’, I’m thinking your position on this one is just a little predictable.
There seems to be a lot of arguing here about whether alcohol is easier to get now than it has been in the past or not. I might be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that most of the reports in The Age on the weekend were attributing the increased violence not to the fact that alcohol was easier to get per se, but that on Queen St there have sprung up a number of large-capacity, long-opening-hours venues all within close proximity such that the concentration of people with easy access to large amounts of alcohol has been increased.
The point that I took away from the article was that the more relaxed licensing laws had created a situation where the consequences were greater than the sum of the involved parts.
If that reading’s correct, then there’s little need to debate just how easy/hard it is to get booze, and more need to focus on the question of whether the problem really is due to an increase in the duration and density of recreational drinking.
I don’t get your point Kymbos?
If I had my way pubs would close at 10pm & not even open at all on Sundays.
I remain to be convinced that this would make any difference to disorderly/violent behaviour in public.
Your experience with the unruly/violent I have no knowledge of. From my experience I can state (to simplfy it) that they only language they understand is the threat of superior physical force.
A water truck driving along the main street of town squirting ice-cold water all over the street just after pub closing time would go a long way to preventing street violence.
This coupled with robust policing and savage judicial penalties would be worth trying to see if it makes the public streets any safer.
Why commenters above seem to be sympathising with gangs or groups of violent offenders I don’t know.
This is a puzzling change of theme lately on this site, as not that long back even the mention of violence would bring Cristy et al in with reflexive anti-violence chirruping.