A friend and I have been intermittently bickering, in a friendly fashion, over the historical garb (in England) of executioners. We are agreed on the black hood, but he claims that executioners traditionally wore red clothes so as not to show the stain of blood. I argued that they just wore dark commoner clothes, mainly because (a) executioner tended to be a part-time job, and apart from the hood there was no official uniform, and (b) red dye was expensive (really expensive) and reserved for the clothing those of high status, and (c) why wouldn’t the authorities want the executioner to not show blood on his clothing anyway? Wasn’t the very public spilling of blood in full view of the populace the whole point?
But I have a nagging suspicion that I may have been overly influenced by the depictions of executioners in popular culture, and every now and then this friend has an annoying habit of being right about obscure historical trivia which is downright perverse for such a tech-head. Now, our LP commentariat combines a diverse expertise, so I thought: hey, maybe one of you lot knows!
In the spirit of reciprocity, I offer up this thread as an open stumper-settling thread. Do you have a trivial, nagging contretemps hanging over your head, and need a definitive rebuttal? Some factoid you’ve always vaguely been curious about, but either never known where to find the definitive answer or been too self-conscious to actually exercise that level of pedantry? Some of us here live for pedantry: no matter how obscure, somewhere there’s likely a LarvyProdder who can offer up a cite fresh from their groaning bookshelf, or who will at least have a chance to show off use their google-fu for good instead of evil.
One other stumper from me: what on earth is the point of this (mildly NSFW) picture after the cut?
Those costumes have had just a tad too much thought and effort put into them to make me entirely comfortable. Who did this, and why?


Playing too many computer games will do that to you.
If only there were such a simple explanation, Tony D! He doesn’t play computer games other than foo-simulator stuff, the fiction he reads is almost exclusively hard SF, and he puts up with my love of historical dramas because (particularly over the last decade) there’s usually gratuitous cleavage.
Wrt the Sack Race: I’ve never seen people take a pun to such extraordinary lengths before. Poor mites look exhausted.
1. It depends on which historical epoch you are referring to. The condemned in Britain were occasionally beheaded post-mortem as late as the 19th century.
2. The racetrack setting of the photo suggests that the picture is taken in NSW or Qld because the competitors are compelled to run the wrong way.
If the photo was taken in Queensland, I imagine that it was intended to be amusing. If the photo was taken in NSW, it probably had something to do with branch stacking, or with some sub-clause of a council building permit approval, or with a “youth group” run by an ALP politician, or all three.
In fact black was a very difficult “colour” for dyers to achieve with traditional dyes. To get black they had to use a mix of carefully balanced pigments and sequential dying. Black is still a bit of a problem in modern dying as you can see if you place two items of “black” clothing from different manufacturers next to each other.
One other stumper from me: what on earth is the point of this (mildly NSFW) picture after the cut?
That they’re all dickheads?
i think that’s a hazing ceremony for the Young Libs.
Just realised I missed a great chance for a bookshelf pun referencing that picture: something about “big dics”.
Make sure the For Battle crowd see the request, tigtog. They’s some l33t nerdz re: matters of historical garb.
From “Colour:Travels through the paintbox” by Victoria Finlay:
Kermes was the European variant of the cochineal bug. But I wonder if this alteration of the meaning of scarlet explains the confusion about executioner’s costumes? It is a great book. Gummo is right about the difficulty of black. The story of black involves Pirates (in the Caribbean, no less!) From Finlay:
That black came from “Logwood” and came into use in England after 1575. It was banned by act of parliament (as the Caribbean was in Spanish hands and they did not like to think of englishmen putting so much money in Spanish pockets). The laws were repealed after England had access to its own source of logwood. Prior to logwood they died cloth with blue red and yellow until it looked blackish. It is a very entertaining book, I highly recommend.
The stuff about black fabrics is very interesting. I suppose that’s why traditionally only the executioner’s hood would be black, so that it wouldn’t have to match with anything else he was wearing.
Were I the functionary of a bloodthirsty despot in ye olden days, I would think that providing the headsman with ye black hoode and ye long leather protective apron would suffice as a sufficiently sinister appearance.
OK then you literature industry folk, answer me this. What is the correct proofreading mark for a URL or a mailto: tag in a document?
Will a line underneath and the letters “URL” or “mailto:” be adequately understood or is there a better abbreviation/symbol?
Katz – how can you tell which way the track bends?
I wonder, in the metric system, what came first? Anyone know? This one should be pretty easy I guess.
1 joule = the amount of energy required to heat 1mL (or 1cm3 or 1g) of water by 1 degree celsius, assuming standard environmental temperature and pressure, right?
One of these must be arbitrary, right?
And is there an easier way of indicating ordered, unordered and nested lists than putting a great big red bracket with nasty arrows beside the offending paragraph?
Quoth tiglet: “every now and then this friend has an annoying habit of being right about obscure historical trivia which is downright perverse”
with friends like that, who needs adversaries??!
A real friend would KNOW HIS PLACE, which is to agree with you on everything AND make the right response to: “should I buy this?” “should I eat another slice?” “do these shoes look OK?” etc
The line of trees swings to the left in the background of the picture.
The photo is taken from the front of the starting barrier. Ergo, the horses (and persons posing as penises) run in a counter-clockwise direction.
1cm is a fraction of the the circumference of the earth, as measured by some French dudes.
Anyone with experience of French engineering will know how arbitrary such a measurement can be.
Several drawings in V.A. C. Gatrell’s “The Hanging Tree. Execution and the English People 1770-1868″ (pb. Oxford, 1996)show the hangman for that period unmasked and in everyday dress of the time, (ie late 18 to mid-19 C.).Even in the brutal hanging and then beheading of the Cato Street conspirators on 1 May, 1820, the executioner is in ordinary street dress and unmasked. In all instances the people being hanged are hooded.
It is also abundantly clear that the visage of Jack Ketch, one of the most famous of the hangmen, appears to be well known to the general public.
I do not have any clear pictures of Hogarth’s Idle/Industrious Apprentice series, but they might throw more light on earlier 18c.costume re the hangman. The ones I do have are too small a reproduction for me to pick out the detail.
Cheers Katz – I’d thought those trees might be in the middle of the track, but of course not… you gots to see the ponies.
I guess those french dudes made that metal rod in that froggy museum to avoid prickly methodological questions about how they derived its length then. “Voila! Un Metre! It is, how you say, what it is”.
No that’s a calorie or 4.8J
Sorry, 4.1 joule.
Interesting about the hangmen of the Hanoverian era, Paul Burns.
I should have specified that this debate was started by watching The Tudors, wherein several people have been beheaded already and ‘Enery hasn’t even married Anne Boleyn yet.
The only image online I’ve managed to find of a headsman wearing red is this one, which is a later re-imagining of a historical event rather than a contemporary artwork.
Execution of Mary Queen of Scots
Actually, Mary wore scarlet.
red cloth would show a bloodstain surely? Maybe they wore leather which could be wiped clean.
Those are trees? Looks more the side of a hill, with houses (and trees!) on it to me.
FDB: they’re all arbitrary. Well, to be more precise, the metre is defined as the distance travelled by the speed of light in a vacuum in some tiny fraction of a second, but that tiny fraction was chosen so that the metre would come out to be the same as the one Katz mentions. Celsius/kelvin — the size of a degree is a hundredth of the difference in temperature between the freezing point and the boiling point of water, historically, now defined as a fraction of the triple point of water. So both relate to some characteristic of external reality, but the way in which they do is quite arbitrary.
On the other hand, both the metre and the kelvin are SI base units — the ones from which all others can be derived.
And historically, celsius came first …
I’m now wondering where the custom of a judge about to sentence someone to death placing a black piece of cloth on his head came from?
Stumpers, Placators and Pedants. I’m out of my depth on the executioner thing, but I have a query that I think comes into the ambit of this column for curly problems.
I cannot understand how the flow on of international oil prices works!
I recollect Malcolm Fraser first tied the bowser price to the international price, thereby giving millions into BHP-Esso’s pocket instantaneously. At the time (in the late 70’s) nasty and malicious rumour had it that our friendly oil companies were also capping oil wells in Bass Straight and re-tapping them at the minimum required distance, thereby giving the oil companies a handsome subsidy for both “finding” and getting a “new” well into production.
But how does the flow-on of international price fluctuations actually work?
As my understanding of economics is naively simple, I’ll work it through and someone is sure to be able to show me the stupidity of my attempts at understanding business principles.
I contract to buy, let’s say timber, fabric, leather, etc, from suppliers to make items I then sell to distributors, who sells it to punters in the street. I know the price and get whatever time to pay. Some of those materials are in transit to our port from their source, some sits around at our premises being processed and stored, and some of it gets processed and sold to other distributors, who sell it out on the streets.
All this happens with a known sale price – to be settled in the appropriate time frames.
Under what rules of economics would the suppliers of our raw materials be able to shift up the prices of those commodities right through, past us as their immediate customer, to the end sellers, who may have already paid us for the products, which we had potentially also already paid for?
If we have processed those purchased materials (oil) and they are sitting as a final product (Unleaded petrol) in the shelves (bowser) of a retailer (the local independent Servo), how can the supplier ram a price change instantaneously right through the entire supply chain, excoriating at whim, the customer?
What other products have this same limitless ability to pass on prices for products already transacted through several intermediatories?
Or am I just so stupid I can’t see how business works?
Please, please! Can someone set me straight on this?
Executioners wore fuligin, methinks. Or was that torturers?
That executioner in the picture looks like Julian Clary.
“Why does the judge in a criminal court assume the Black Cap when pronouncing sentence of death?” is a question frequently asked. This is because covering the head has from the earliest times been regarded as a sign of mourning. Numerous examples of this occur in the Scriptures, in the classics, and in modern literature…
I always thought there was a religious aspect to this as well, something like it was supposed to show god that you did this with a heavy heart or something.
website:http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/mco/ml08.htm
Re the black cap of death: Douglas Hay in the opening article in Albion’s Fatal Tree argues that this was part of a wnole panopoly of the manifestation of state power as expressed through the judicial system, the most visible to be seen in the countryside ‘apart from the presence of a regiment.’
Continuation of 30. Field dropped out or something.
The use of the black cap was a summoning of the powers of darkness, as the white gloves, worn when there were no prisoners for execution, summoned the powers of light.For the audience at the trial (and 18c assizes were sigfnificant social occasions in large towns that occurred twice yearly, so the audience was huge). Sentences were all given on the last day of the assizes one after the other, ‘in ascending order of severity.’ The donning of the black cap was ‘the moment of terror around which the system revolved.’
Basically, the intention was to scare the bejesus out of everyone.
I had a running argument with a mate awhile ago about sunsets/sunrise — Do sunsets look objectively different to sunrises? If so, why?
Jobby – usually I’d lay the blame squarely on whatever it is that’s kept me up till sunrise.
Seriously though – a regular and similar difference in appearance *could* be due to local geo/topo-graphical and weather. In perth they do tend to look pretty different, and it’s because the sun rises from over the dry interior and sets over the sea.
Jobby, a photo of a sunrise over the ocean and a sunset over the ocean, or over desert dunes, might not look much different. Once you get sunsets over more contoured terrain then if you know the terrain you can tell whether you’re looking easterly or westerly.
Obviously, experiencing it in person one can usually easily tell whether is it lightening or darkening.
Mervyn Langford wrote:
Any commodity that has a futures or derivative instrument does this – the bowser price isn’t so much reflecting what that particular litre of petrol cost to get to your bowser, but it does reflect what the oil companies current “position” is priced at in a mark-to-market sense. Some of their oil would have been cheaper, some more expensive, but it’s irrelevent as their hedging strategies (i.e. their attempt to remove risk from oil prices) are a big determinant in the cost at the bowser.
So, futures contracts (i.e. a promise to buy oil, in the future, at a particular price) are sold by oil producing companies to hedge their risk of future price falls. I (as an oil refiner) might buy some hedges to reduce my upside risk of future price rises. These contracts have value in themselves (i.e. the oil producer makes money from selling them, the oil refiner can trade them).
Now, if I hold my futures contract to maturity, I pay exactly the price on the contract (which could be higher or lower than the market price). However, if I trade it in the meantime for money, I can make a profit/loss without ever having to handle a barrel.
Now the ugly bit: As an oil refiner who wishes to manage risk, I have to buy these things regularly, and as the market price moves, the futures price moves too. The bowser price reflects the futures market as the oil refiners have to pay for this months contracts, not only the oil that was already delivered.
Now, you can also buy another financial instrument called a “futures option”, which is an option to buy a particular futures contract as a specific price sometime in the future. They make the outline above look simple.
I propose a test. There’s got to be an LP reader who lives near the coast on a really flat plain somewhere. Not me, or I’d do it I swear.
Take a series of photos of sunrises and sunsets, crop out the sea/land, and compare and contrast.
I believe you will see a difference, but it won’t be the same difference between locations.
There’s an easier way.
Go to Google images and search “sunrise”.
Do the same with “sunset”.
Compare and contrast.
You kids and your “google this” and your “facespace that”.
The best site for answers to both the trivial and serious is Ask MetaFilter, part of the wonderful world that is MetaFilter, aka MeFi.
Oh no, I’m not going back there. The last time I clicked on one of those links, wilful, I woke up days later with bags under my eyes and a throbbing head full of useless information and bitter too-intelligent over-worldly sarcasm. Don’t do it, people!
Give me a self-pitying lonely binge on cheap wine any day, it’s much healthier for body, mind and spirit than a trip through that particular portal to moderately interesting hell.
Matsue sunrises and sunsets are definitely different. The sun sets over the Sea of Japan and the Shinjiko lake, and rises over the mountains. Sunsets are glorious scarlet and purple phenomena, while sunrises are just a golden glow. Here is an example of sunset, from my photo collection (it’s a little late so not very good).
The difference between “sunrise” and “sunset” is as follows:
1. “Sunrise” by Uriah Heep is the funniest rock n roll song ever recorded, whereas there isn’t a song called “Sunset” by anyone that is equally funny.
2. Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles is one of the most amazing streets in the entire world, but there isn’t a street in any city I know of called Sunrise Boulevard, that can come close to comparing.
3. “Sunrise” by F.W. Murnau is an amazing piece of early cinema with few equals; on the other hand, Murnau also made “Nosferatu” in which the difference between sunrise and sunset was a matter of some importance for our good friend Count Orlock.
4. “The Town That Dreaded Sundown” and “Hurry Sundown” both sound a whole lot more ominous than “The Town That Dreaded Sunrise.” Unless it was a town full of vampires, which would be pretty cool. Except, if you weren’t one yourself.
As JG would say, Hope this helps. But it probably won’t.
No love for Rolf Harris j_p_z?
I have stumper: Does human flesh really taste like pork? Do we know this from all the “long pig” stories from New Guinea?
“22 Katz
Apr 9th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Actually, Mary wore scarlet”.
Actually she presented in black. Stripped down however, she revealed a ’scarlet’ or red chemise. For RCs, at least, the colour of martyrdom?
Or am I in error? Again.
On the topic of executions, I was a little surprised to learn from the co-written (and deeply unsettling) memoirs of a British hangman, employed during the last two decades of capital punishment, that the condemned were never given the opporunity for last words.
The process of killing didn’t allow it. The gallows chamber was always (unbeknownst to the prisoner if possible) in the very next room to the condemned cell. At the appointed time two executioners would enter the room, immediately strap the prisoner’s arms and then guide the prisoner through the door and a couple of steps further to the correct point. Once here, one executioner would fit the hood and noose while the other strapped the ankles. The instant that was done, the executioners would jump back and hit the lever. The memoirs talk of less than 10 seconds between the executioners entering the prisoner’s cell and the prisoner’s neck being broken, for “good” executions at least. Even bad ones only took a few seconds longer unless the prisoner resisted, and from memory this particular executioner never witnessed that.
It seems that a major goal was to make the process so rapid and mechanical that the prisoner wouldn’t react in the last seconds, traumatising the executioners. The prisoner didn’t react because the prisoner didn’t think those were the last seconds. He thought he still had time to go, minutes even. With the same preconceptions I had, he would often have expected the opportunity to make a last statement. If so, he would only have been disabused of this notion (if at any time prior to feeling the floor go) when the hood was pulled over. At this point there was perhaps a second or two to go.
So where do these preconceptions come from? I know Ned Kelly’s last words are often referred to, and I seem to remember last words stories from earlier London public executions, so when did this “tradition” die out if it ever really existed?
That certainly isn’t my understanding of the situation tigtog. While researching military uniforms I discovered that the most common source for red dye was madder, a plant easily obtainable by Europeans. After all, if the English could afford to use madder to turn every red coat of their red-coated army red then madder dye was hardly likely to have ever been that expensive. I suspect you are confusing red with Tyrian purple which was indeed expensive to produce. I know this doesn’t help you any tigtog but it’s the best i can do at the moment.
No, but Tig Tog’s painting is.
Mary disrobed down to her red chemise before the throat ever touched the block.
But madder was a pinkish dye, not a red dye until the latter 19th century when a new chemical process intensified the colour, which was thenceforth called alizaron crimson amongst the colourful community. [Wikipedia on rose madder]
The genuine rose madder contained two distinct dyes mixed to achieve the result – purpurin and alizarin. Prior to the discovery of the fixative chemicals which produced a reliable alizarin crimson, that sort of red was not easily available.
My two bob’s worth: In 16th century Germany, the hangman was a dishonourable person, but necessary. He could pollute by his very touch. Executioners’ children were banned from honourable trades and could only marry other lowly types, like knackers or hangman’s assistants.
As a result, dynasties of executioners developed, linked by blood and marriage. They were social pariahs, but they made a lot of money. They had a strong sense of self-confidence and professional mastery, and while the interrogators wore sombre black, the hangmen were renowned for their bright, colourful clothing. A badge of the profession.
I seem to remember reading that Ann Boleyn’s executioner was dressed in black and wore a mask. As he was a Frenchman imported for the occasion this may not have been normal. Google turns up a description, but nothing is referenced…
Katz, quite right about Mary of Scots and the red chemise, which is why I noted that the painting was a later rendition of the scene rather than contemporary, and thus the headsman’s red costume in that painting can’t be taken as reliable evidence. I guess it does show that to a certain High Victorian sensibility, the idea of the headsman wearing red seemed proper.
Laura and I are on the same page about the practicality of leather in a profession involving blood: wipes right off.
Fascinating about the German hangmen, Brutus. I wonder whether hangmen and headsmen executioners associated with each other or kept apart, and whether they dressed the same? As beheading tended to be reserved for treasonous nobles and gentlefolk, with hanging the commoner’s execution, perhaps there would have been some class stratification there.
I read yesterday that German executioners (didn’t differentiate between hangmen and headsmen) had to wear yellow so that no one inadvertently mixed with them not realising who they were.
Barbara Tuchman in “A Distant Mirror” reports that in Northern Europe in the 14th century it was not unknown for town A to buy a condemned criminal from town B so that town B could stage an execution.
Such a transaction underlines the social value of capital punishment at that time.
Given this aspect of the profession of executioner, it would appear that they had a status somewhat above “pariah”. Having paid for an execution, it would behove the executioner to do an appropriately entertaining, and/or educational job-of-work.
His performance would inevitably be judged by the criteria of tension, drama, moral appropriateness, and how long the performance was sustained.
Good performances would attract celebrity status.
Buccrabendinni @ 48,
The tradition of the hanged criminal’s last words probably had its origins partly in the flash ballads recited/printed/circulated at public hangings at Tyburn Tree (near today’s Marble Arch in London, from memory), and partly from trial and execution broadsheets which were particularly prevalent in the mid to later 18c. and again in the second quarter of the 19c. These rxecution broadsheets were very profitable for those selling them, they were in such popular demand. They frequently contained the crimminal’s alleged dying speech, hence the tradition.Broadsheets about Jack Shepherd, thief and escapologist, are probably the best known examples.
Rhe story of the execution of the aristocratic murderer Lord Ferrers“““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““`
David Rubie – not raw it doesn’t!
I have an awful tale to tell, which casts at least some anecdotal light on the topic, but I’ll leave it until we’ve all had our lunch.
(Cont’d) Again something weird happened.
The story of the aristocratic Lord Ferrers in 1760 is instructive, perhaps even archetypal, despite his rank. He showed absolutely no fear on his way to Tyburn (in a coach!) and on the way there stopped to give several guineas to his housekeeper and mistress. On the scaffold, (in the midst of an unseemly fight between the hangman and assistant hangman as to who was entitled to the fee Ferrers gave them, which he had given by mistake to the assistant) Ferrers simply asked, ‘Am I ready?’ once the rope had been put round his neck. He was then despatched. The significance of this story is that many criminals, like Ferris, dressed in their best finery for execution, and attempted to display dignity on the scaffold, because this was the nature of the 18c criminal culture, regardless of class origins – it was how one died.
Well, maybe mostly that is the way they died….
From the Tower of London site.
“In 1541, it was the turn of the 71-year-old Margaret, Countess of Salisbury, whose offence was being the last surviving member of the Plantagenet dynasty, overthrown by the Tudors. The Countess refused to place her head on the block, and had to be chased around the green by the executioner, who hacked her to death.”
*note to self..stop looking up executions by axe instead of working”
RADIO ANNOUNCER: We now return to Part Nine of, “The Death of Mary, Queen of Scots.”
EXECUTIONER: Are you Mary, Queen of Scots?
MARY: I am.
SFX: (endless violent scuffle, going on for the remaining twenty-two minutes)
RADIO ANNOUNCER: Tune in again next week for Part Ten of “The Death of Mary, Queen of Scots.” Here’s a preview…
EXECUTIONER: I think she’s dead.
MARY: No I’m not.
SFX: (resume endless scuffling)
That was from a Monty Python record, was it “Matching Tie and Handkerchief”? One of them, anyway…
i like the story of sir walter raleigh, who strokes the blade and says, “a physick to cure any ill”. Shortly thereafter he gets cured.
Inddeed, darin. Not all of them died with dignity. Some of them were gibbering wrecks and had to be carried or dragged onto the scaffold, especially thieves. But some murderers and especially highwaymen tried to display a modicum of honour.
An alternative version of the death of Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury, has her placing her head on the block with dignity at first, and only jumping up and running after the inexperienced executioner’s first blow hit her shoulder instead of her neck, quite possibly simply maddened with pain rather than consciously attempting to escape. All accounts agree that she ended up being hacked to death on the green though.
I think I may never look on the inernet again…
Link
FDB – I’ve had my lunch. Now I want a cannibalism story before bedtime, explaining why raw human flesh doesn’t taste like pork (assuming you’ve also tasted raw pork). Is the “long pig” thing from New Guinea just an urban legend?
Mark@25, Mindy@29: I think this tradition comes from Judaism. Jews wear the yarmulke to constantly remind them of God. For judges (even non-Jewish ones) to do something similar under such circumstances suggest they are invoking divine assistance in their decision and the consequences that follow.
Thanks, Andrew, but it’s a bit odd that it slipped into the British common law tradition – given that at least in theory, Jews were expelled from England in 1290.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_England
Interesting thread Tigs.
My father told this tale of ‘Nosey Bob’, the hangman who lived at Bondi, apparently, the pub/publican would smash the glass he drank from, after he had finishing drinking for the night.
But I just googled him up, and he died in 1906, sixteen years before my father was born in Bondi, so possibly the story was passed locally.
Anyway, found a small bio on Nosey Bob, and he is buried across the road with his wife – I’ll have a look-see for his grave, and take a photo for my cemetery blog.
“For many years Robert Howard was a hardworking operator of a hansom cab. He had an extensive clientele in the Darling Point neighbourhood, as well as Government House, and was coachman to the Duke of Edinburgh during his Australian visit in the 1860s. In his young days, Howard was tall, lithe and good-looking, but disaster came upon him. He was viciously kicked in the face by one of his horses and his nose was destroyed. Thereafter, he was nicknamed “Nosey Bob” and shunned by the society trade.
Unemployed, Howard finally accepted the unwanted post of state hangman in 1876 and during his 29 year career he boasted that every one of his 66 executions was carried out with the utmost dispatch and decorum. Socially, Robert Howard was a very decent fellow and could be relied upon to assist any deserving case of a discharged prisoner or a prisoner’s family in distress, earning him yet another nickname, “the Gentleman Hangman”. He lived a lonely life in a cottage on Bondi Beach; died in 1906; and is buried with his wife, Jane, in Waverley Cemetery.”
That’s interesting – the hangman as scapegoat.
should read – finished drinking.
and maybe a good time to start.
yeah, poor old nosey bob – the hard done by hangman of bondi!
apologies for the bio – straight from the waverley library local figures of interest page, probably typed up from the 1971 booklet of same.