You have done nothing except refer to Mr Hicks in any of your comments,so please don’t guild the lily now when it is clear to me, you like to change the tenor of your argument, to make a rebuttal of your own self inflicted insults…

Unlike you, I don’t have obsessions about David Hicks or otherwise, I care less what happens to him.I would rather have seen him shot, but I will concede that may have been a little hard on the man, as he is clearly an idiot.

Cemeteries are full of victims of people that were thought to have redeemed themselves.

Goodnight.

” …. so keep defending him if it makes you feel good.”

What????

Who is defending him?? Not me, sonny!

What is being defended is our system of values, our rule of law, out long-standing traditions, our sovereignty, our strengths in the face of an implacable enemy, our hope of prevailing against a ruthless and determined enemy.

If, in the process of defending the things which we hold dear and defending the things which will help us survive present and future conflicts, an opportunity is given for one of our own who was with the enemy to redeem himself, then so be it …. and good luck to him in his new reformed life.

That’s just the way the world works. Not always nice, not always pretty …. and you had better get used to it.

What makes me feel good is our survival.

If what makes you feel good is hating David Hicks five years past whenever such hatred might have served any purpose then that’s your problem, or your obsession; take your pick. Just make sure that whatever you do doesn’t inadvertently assist the terrorists’ cause; you wouldn’t want to accidentally do that, would you?. Good night.

Graham: I don’t and I won’t. A lot of the poor buggers got put in camps after 1975, and then had their citizenship taken away afterwards - if they survived. Many of them ended up as Cyclo drivers. My Vietnamese teacher’s father was one of the luckier ones. A telecommunications engineer in the government - he had a family to come back to and take care of him. I’ve met him a few times - utter top bloke.

In my opinion the turning point in the war came in the TET offensive,and the fact that it was evident the war was about “Nationalism” and the communist bogey man had been put to bed.This added to the unrest in American cities, and the deaths of students at demonstrations etc, etc,the war was abandoned.

But again what has all this got to do with Hicks? Nothing!

He is a terrorist/traitor,and no matter what red herrings you throw in the mix,this will not change the facts.At the end of the day you don’t have to convince me,my mind is made up.

Lets face it,this sooner or later will come down to being a drawn out legal battle with the bottom line “How much” to go away and get on with your life.

But that is never going to happen,so keep defending him if it makes you feel good.

Should have mentioned it earlier …. this topic has been running for slightly longer than the Crucible at the end of United States Marine Corps training. Whew!

Down And Out Of Sai Gon [68]:

True enough. But don’t forget that, despite all the corruption, there were many many unrecognized and unrewarded South Vietnamese civil and military personnel who did their duty to the best of their ability under appalling circumstances …. and the same would apply to locals in Iraq and Afghanistan today.

Jenny, Katz, Nabakov and all:

Have read you …. not ignoring you.

You can sling all the insults you like at me, that won’t change history …. a history that, sadly, now includes the moral cowardice and dereliction of duty by many ex-service personnel who passively collaborated in the attacks on our democracy, our system of law and our way of life.

Merely saying something is

“patently untrue,and figments of your wild imagination.”

does not make it untrue at all. You could try proving it to be untrue; that would be a different matter - and the best of British luck to you.

“WE the Australians served with honour and distinction in this conflict,”

Quite so. Although there is the little matter of overreliance on G.-d. firepower and a neglect and under-resourcing of the very effective “hearts-and-minds” actions that had the unrealized potential to make the use of G.-d. firepower far less necessary ….and win us victory. But that’s another issue.

RSL? Oh, I’ve heard of them. Aren’t they the ones who rubber-stamped the sell-off of war service homes land at a time when so many ex-diggers and their families were living in caravans and rented accommodation? Aren’t they the ones who did absolutely nothing at all about unfair discrimination against ex-diggers in employment and education opportunities? Aren’t they the ones who, instead, go absolutely bananas over changing the flag, over democratically changing our head-of-state, over whether little kids can march with their grand-dad on ANZAC Day or over any trivial issue that happens to pop up? No thanks, they’re a bunch of losers …. I prefer to keep company with people who managed to survive wars, are glad they did so and who look to a better future.

If you are indeed a Viet Nam vet,you would know as well as I do, WE the Australians served with honour and distinction in this conflict,and our so called loss was due to political interference and not by our service personnel.

War is politics by other means. Western governments bent on perpetuating the State of South Vietnam demonstrated that they did not have the political will to compel the sacrifice necessary to impose their political solutions on Vietnam.

The less likely reason for this inability was a misuse of military resources.

The much more likely reason for this inability was that the military, industrial, psychic and financial resources required to impose their solution did not exist.

Mr Bell, your rantings about Hicks are a case study of someone that is very bitter the world isn’t run the way you perceive it.Fortunately most of what you have said is patently untrue,and figments of your wild imagination.Your contention that Viet Nam and Kuwait were bungled because-

” of the unthinking, blindly-obedient, undisciplined, mis-trained, group-think mentality that cost us victory in Viet-Nam, that cost us swift victory after the liberation of Kuwait, that cost us a quick and easy victory over Saddam Hussein in the Iraq War and that will cost us defeat at the hands of al-Qaeda.”

borders on a statement made from someone that should be in a padded cell.

If you are indeed a Viet Nam vet,you would know as well as I do, WE the Australians served with honour and distinction in this conflict,and our so called loss was due to political interference and not by our service personnel.

If you came to my local R.S.L. and spruiked your mantra out loud you would be shown the door.Yes even a democracy has its limitations,and you have reached yours.

“I got close to making a cogent point. My cup runneth over. My joy is unconstrained. Thankyou kind Marlon. Thankyou. Thankyou. I’m off to do the happy dance.”

I’m sure you will find a partner,you have plenty to choose from here.

Nice to see you’re aware you shouldn’t be included in that observation.

The only person in this little exchange who has even come close to a cogent point is Jenny(which I confess I was flippant with) is, Hicks only carried out trivial tasks for the Taliban which was not considered an illegal group at the time.The jury is still out on this point.

Whoa! I got close to making a cogent point. My cup runneth over. My joy is unconstrained. Thankyou kind Marlon. Thankyou. Thankyou. I’m off to do the happy dance.

Hell, I’m glad to be in the minority.

It means that I’m DEFINITELY NOT part of the unthinking, blindly-obedient, undisciplined, mis-trained, group-think mentality that cost us victory in Viet-Nam, that cost us swift victory after the liberation of Kuwait, that cost us a quick and easy victory over Saddam Hussein in the Iraq War and that will cost us defeat at the hands of al-Qaeda.

Next time that bunch of ex-servicemen calls around, ask them what excuse they have for going AWOL when Habeus Corpus, the Geneva Conventions, the right to refute evidence and all the other traditional rights were chucked onto the garbage heap? Ask them too, what is so wonderful about torture, murder, double-jeopardy and all the other cruel-and-unusual punishments committed against prisoners or detainees that they didn’t dare speak out against their use. And don’t forget to ask them if they realize that their passive collaboration with evil-doing does tremendous harm to our own cause and, instead, legitimizes and strengthens al-Qaeda and all the other terrorist groups.

Anyway, how about a petition at your pub to get Terry Hicks an Order Of Australia?
He showed guts, tenacity, loyalty, toughness, determination, initiative, courage and all the other things we admire in the ANZAC Spirit. Go on, he deserves it.

Oh I think you made yourself perfectly clare the first time.

Boom tish.

Quick random sample of returned servicemen at a function yesterday reveals 100% possess a contrasting view, furthermore the opinion was voiced unchallenged that amongst returned servicemen the views of Graham Bell on this matter are …er… a minority view.

Off-topic - but why the hell are sculpture, opera singing and the like applauded and funded as high art whilst quilting and other fabric arts belittled and demeaned by the arts establishment? Hey, what about all the young quilters?? [this comment was made freely and not under duress or coercion by any other inhabitant of this dwelling].

[and 54]:

Nah. Not a patch on ABC Radio National’s recent bookreading of “Heart Of Darkness”. The horror of it all came through long before Kurtz’ death scene.

Marlon [all comments]:

“You are obviously suffering from some type of paranoia”

Spot on! When it comes to wanting my country to be prosperous and free from attack, I’m an absolute monomaniac! I go beserk when anyone arbitrarily abolishes rights, protections and obligations what were won with blood and suffering over the centuries. I go ape whenever crooks give my country away for the latter-day equivalent of blankets-and-axes or whenever they harm their own citizens by crawling to a foreign ruler.

My contempt remains unchanged for those ex-service personnel who disgraced themselves by failing to defend our traditional liberties when they were being smashed. My admiration for truly patriotic ex-servicemen, like Andrew Willkie, and for inspiring gentlemen, like Terry Hicks, remains undiminished.

Where you left yourself wide open is in chanting the “Hicks-is-a-traitor” mantra …. which translates into Australian English as “Don’t look at the real mischief being committed by scoundrels here. Look the other way! Look over there at that demon David Hicks! Look! Look! Look!” Only mugs are distracted by that sort of cheap political stunt.

OK, I got that mixed up with common law proscriptions about doona coverage theft in a shared winter bed.

Obviously I meant “guilty”.

Good point. But not quite in the way you think.

Yes if he was an apostate who fell into back into the hands of crazed and extreme Islamic fundie elements of his home culture, no doubt he would have been terminated with extreme and mediagenic prejudice.

But that’s the whole point. We’re not like them. Aren’t they supposed to hate our freedom stuff? And part of that involves some of the supreme glories of Western civilisation - like an independent judiciary, habeas corpus, the judgement of your peers and all that jazz.

And just as ignorance of the law is no defence, so being being a complete dickhead is no proof of guilt.

Few would disagree David Hicks was a complete dickhead - but our precious Western Civilization rule of law that we’re supposed to be defending above all has been unable to find him quilty of anything.

Face it Marlon, Hicks could only avoid the kind of retribution you think he deserves because he came from the kind of place with the values you think are worth preserving.

Indeed that being the Americans at the time, what can I say ?
?
Hicks should be still there.

David Hicks became a political pawn in a rigged game.I may look like a cabbage,I am not green. All the points have been read and duly noted,it changes nothing.

At a different point in history this would have all been long forgotten by now,and Hicks would be long gone.He was lucky the good guys caught him.

He played at being Rambo and lost,end of.