I was hoping to convey that offending is multi-dimensional and complex; you are right that there certainly there are strong clusters of factors, both causal and correlated.

Happy to leave it there

And, with respect to you Sumblime Cowgirl, (and I mean that), “unable to integrate” and “regulate aspects” and “detrimental to themselves” will mean very little to victims of sexual abuse and pedophilia to whom, from me, all the sadness, pity, empathy and compassion in the world goes to and whose lives have been fragmented beyond belief by these individuals whose psychopathology is a sadness to you.

And that is all I will say on this matter because I am not about to engage in whether or not people who rape and molest children are deserving of understanding in a kind of removed psychological analysis and some kind of distant clinical sadness which you seem to be advocating.

The relevant question is “did they know what they were doing?” - the answer is, unless the individual was in a psychotic state or clinically and legally insane, yes. Yes everytime.

Pity may not be the right word, but it is certainly sad when anyone is unable to integrate or regulate aspects of their psyche to the point that it it becomes detrimental to themselves and others around them.

I don’t have a problem with this, Katz. I only have a problem when those with coercive powers try to force their ideas of Right on me.

This is when my problems are confirmed, AR.

However, my problems arise at an earlier time, as indicated in my earlier comment.

The confirmation never comes out aof a clear blue sky. There is almost always the early warning of an intention to prohibit.

And because they dont get sex they turn into child molesters? I dont believe that paedophilia emerges when a priest who has promised celibacy is denied sex and marriage. Its a pathology which emerges generally in early teenage years, and countless studies show abusers have been abused themselves and so there is a long history associated with the development of an abnormal sexual interest in children. Accordingly its prevalence in the catholic priesthood has nothing to do with a sudden forced celibacy and chastity upon entry into the priesthood. Rather its the other way round. Pedophiles would be attracted to positions where they have access to children. There are lots of married pedophiles and they are found in like positions where kids are - teaching, scouts, anglican church, sporting clubs, you name it. Its not a valid argument to suggest that one molests children because they have to be celibate as part of their role as priest and this drives the ‘poor bastards’ to it. by the way that use of the term ‘poor bastards’ is a worrying one. There’s nothing to pity about pedophiles, whether they are priests or anything else.

My problems with priests arise when they start trying to tell me how to live my life and when they start insisting that their funny little rules represent Right.

I don’t have a problem with this, Katz. I only have a problem when those with coercive powers try to force their ideas of Right on me.

Mark, Joseph Ratzingers’s failure to go to Boston and personally say “sorry, guys” was a major omission and suggests a disingenuousness, indeed a “doublethink” that many, including me, view as hypocritical on Papa’s part. Boston isn’t exactly half a world away from Washington, where El Papa met with Bush 43 recently.
Symbolism is quite a big deal in Roman Catholicism. Ratzinger’s acceptance and continuance of JP2’s appointment of Cardinal Law to a host of influential senior positions in The Vatican also suggests a level of hypocrisy in Holy Mother Church’s senior spiritual executive with regard to the thousands of serial sexual felonies that were by perpetrated upon minors by American cardinals, archbishops, monseigneurs, priests and so on down the ranks, when Cardinal Law was Vatican point-man in the USA.

“Cardinal Law’s reign as Archbishop of Boston began in popularity but quickly declined into turbulence towards the end of his term. Allegations and reports of sexual misconduct by priests of the Archdiocese of Boston became widespread causing Roman Catholics in other dioceses of the United States to investigate similar situations there. ….The events in the Archdiocese of Boston exploded into a national Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal.

As a result of the unlawful sex(ual abuses), the Archdiocese of Boston lost millions of dollars in fines and settlements.
The archdiocese slipped into large financial deficits. The Archdiocese was forced to close sixty-five parishes before Cardinal Law stepped down from service. Law’s name has become synonymous with the nationwide Church scandal.
After his resignation, John Paul appointed Law to several authoritative positions in Rome and the Vatican.[2]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Francis_Law

Whatever Joseph Ratzinger says when he comes to Oz regarding clerical sexual abuse of innocents and minors, it will lack credibility when viewed alongside Cardinal Law’s Vatican promotion.
Unless maybe The Pontiff decrees that any member of his organization that has anything to do with children in Australia must be in possession of a valid “blue card” like all other adults in whose trust children are placed. No exceptions, regular updates, zero tolerance.
Such an initiative would reek of credibility and send a clear message to clergy to keep their hands where they belong.

Mark, you say: “But it’s fair to say that the sociology of the priesthood is such that they have great difficulty in forming horizontal relationships with anyone other than fellow clergy.”

And they sin when they do so according to current book of rules. Forced to wage war against their own human nature, riddled with fear, guilt and shame, these poor bastards are expected to behave normally when around children. Married clergy would be an enlightened step in the right direction, but Holy Mother Church is one Boys Club that prefers things as they are, or change would have been implemented by those who possessed ultimate power over how their lives were to be lived, long ago.
And in 2008, the power possessed by man whose ring the faithful and influence peddlers alike line up to kiss.

I just don’t want to intrude.

My hope is that their objectives and their methods will cause them to lose adherents and to dwindle away.

This approach appears to be working beautifully. So I’d suggest that anything that looks like providing martyrs for such voluntary organisations would be counter-productive.

i don’t know for sure if they have this exemption or if there’s some other way they get around anti-discrimination stuff.

i think my point is, that it is reasonable to criticise the church if it seems to be discriminatory or unjust etc, and not just when it starts telling you what to do, for the sake of justice, truth, beauty, etc

am i right that the churches had to get an exemption from the anti-discrimination act to allow them to keep women out of the ordained ministries?

also, it’s been said a squillion times, but anglican priests do seem to do quite a good job at being priests even though they often come with “spouse, offspring, dogs, lawnmower, etc” (and in the anglo-catholic tradition, they even manage to hold on to a lot of mystique - which may or may not be a good thing - after all they never had a vatican II…)