Much as I like the bloke, the headline on one of several op/eds Paul Keating has in the papers today criticising Kevin Rudd’s Asian Union idea says it all really – “I got it right the first time”.
I found it interesting this week to see what some of my students in Political Communication at QUT – doing group presentations on political leadership and campaigns – made of PJK. Most of them were very young indeed when Paul Keating was PM, and landmarks such as his Redfern Speech, or for that matter, the famous hand on the Queen incident aren’t present in their recollection. Researching Keating from scratch, as it were, you turn up lots of stuff about his colourful rhetoric, but seemingly, you also come to the conclusion that the man isn’t happy with his place in history – which I think is probably right.
When I was thinking about this, I decided that his criticism of Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd’s advisors last year probably related to this – because of his great hatred of John Howard, he was worried that Labor wouldn’t get over the line when Howard’s defeat looked so likely, and speculating in his mind how he might have fought such a campaign.
I’m still a little suspicious that PJK might have, in one way or another, contributed to the spate of criticism of Kevin Rudd early this week on the grounds of supposed policy drift. Whether or not I’m right, and the circumstantial evidence is there, it is clear that Keating’s criticism plays neatly into the prevailing opposition/media narrative – that big announcements from the PM are stunts and diversionary. I don’t personally see the case for attacking Rudd for not having done all the detail work on this proposal before floating it. It may well be open to the sorts of criticisms Keating makes, but you really do have to question his motives in taking his concerns to the public arena rather than raising them privately.
Speaking of prevailing opposition/media narratives, I’d like to see Brendan Nelson called by the media for his silly comments about Rudd going to Japan next week – which boiled down to “how can he go overseas when Australians are doing it tough?” – this is from the same man whose one note attack during Kevin Rudd’s first overseas grand tour was that he wasn’t visiting Japan.
Mind you, I fail to see how an Asia-Pacific Union, or even an Asia-Pacific Economic Community, could possibly work.
Aside from anything, it doesn’t seem to offer that much to the Chinese and Indians. Scale? They’ve got more scale than they can deal with efficiently already.
Free movement of labour and capital?
The Chinese don’t even have free movement of labour internally. The Hukou system keeps a lot of peasants out of the cities.
Sure, but things may change by 2020, and this sort of initiative might contribute to that change.
I’m just worried that it’s more policy overreach. You’ve got enough on your plate, Kevin. Stop with the big aspirational announcements and deliver on what you’ve already announced.
Robert, I certainly not a Chinese expert but while I was there last year the numbers of rural people actually living and working in the cities were significant. In the large cities they lined the roadside holding posters seeking work for what I understand was pitiful pay for long hours seven days a week.
I note that Wiki says:
“by 2004 the Chinese Ministry of Agriculture estimated that over 100 million people registered as “rural” were working in cities”
I suspect that the number has risen since then, particularly with the Olympic building frenzy..
Nelson’s criticism of Rudd going to Japan are risible. I suppose some still see them as junkets, not helped by the way Facebook was utilised by the ‘executive assistant’.
I bet that won’t happen ever again.
It’s very simple.
1. Keating believes his time was unjustly cut short by that weasal’s weasal, Howard.
2. To make matters worse from PJK’s point of view, Labor in opposition distanced itself from Keating’s policies and achievements.
3. Now, PJK is trying to deal himself back in the game and reclaim his manntle as the Great Big Picture Statesman. If this means cutting across Rudd, tough shit.
Has anyone seen anyone, apart from China, come out in support of Kev’s proposal?
Or any suggestion that it was anything other than all his own work?
Stephen Smith has stated the obvious, in what looks like a bit of damning with faint praise: “..a new alliance will ensure countries like India are no longer neglected by Australia “, “The Prime Minister’s put out a suggestion and we’ll be doing some work on that in the forthcoming months.” I haven’t seen anything from Crean or Swan saying it’ll be good for business, and there’s only an eerie silence coming from The Academy.
It’s like the Liberty Valance/High Noon/ Etc cliche western scene where the townsfolk run for cover when the guy in black turns up, and there’s only the new tinhorn sherrif to face him. And a tumbleweed.
Kev won’t forget who stuck up for him , and who didn’t, when he took a pasting.
You’d think some of them what drank deep of the 2020 loving cup could think of something smart to say. Cue Glyn Davis: getting given the guernsey, and a $317k or so consideration, to do the summit wrangling, and $50 million funding for a thinktank at UniMelb, doesn’t seem to buy much in the way of mates these days.
Maybe it was just a nothing idea…
I am pretty sure China hasn’t come out in support of this? They probably haven’t really noticed it. Aspirations for an Asian “community” or common market have been floating around for many years, mostly under the umbrella of ASEAN, which seems like the best bet for making it work. We would have to work very hard just to be included, let along lead, such an initiative.
Rudd is right to say that there is a “great danger of ending up with a spaghetti bowl of bilateral free trade agreements”, but it’s hard not to think that an idea that is at best a generation away for the countries involved, especially China and Japan, isn’t an attempt to get the government on the front foot after a bad couple of weeks.
It’s pretty unlikely that the Asian nations will be swayed by an out of leftfield vision for their united future, offered publicly by the newly-elected Australian PM.
Policy by press statement isn’t the way they do business and the optics of being lectured to by the new kid on the Australian block in the Asia-Pacific region are inherently culturally discomfiting.
Given that Rudd is a sagacious chap who will be well aware of this, I think we can conclude that his musings were designed more for domestic consumption and I’m sure they will be read that way elsewhere.
By the way, if it had of been Howard who got a “special envoy” on board just 2 hours before announcing an idea, I would have expected an outcry here about a government obviously looking for a diversion and making it all up on the run. Instead, just a shot at Nelson. Typical.
Geoff Honnor wrote:
It’s quite possible there’s 11 years of latent demand for something like that Geoff, given that the previous PM was considered fairly suspect by our neighbours after some of his mid-1980s musings on immigration levels.
steve from brisbane, I’m so far left of you that I’m from Perth, but only the most myopic ideologue could disagree with that assessment!
Can anyone point me towards a good Australian group blog which discusses politics, sociology, culture, life, religion and science from a left of centre perspective?
As for Rudd’s proposal to try & construct an EU style connection between Asia-Pacific states…I reckon its right out of some Corporate totalitarian manual.
Not my cup of whatever.
Hopefully it’s a BEAT UP. Words taken out of context. But Keating ain’t happy.
People I was close to in Europe & Britain detested aspects of it. It stuffed up their small businesses and let large players w/ money use the EU courts to beat the small guy/gal down.
And led to an uncontrolled moving of workers & people that sees titan-like jails filled to the brim so they can build more, a lack of ability to determine who is in your Country until they’ve committed a crime…
Can be bad for unions & worker conditions…some businesses can expolit new workers who are desperate to work for anything better than the crappy wage they got in…Poland & Romani for instance. Leaves some poorer countries brain-drained & reliant on wealthy Brits/Germans etc. coming in & ripping up their best farming & coastal land to build mega houses & flats.
Increases slack customs & immigration procedures leading to increased sex slavery and so on.
Sure, we don’t want to be as protective as France and allow tensions in poorer areas to fester. And we need skilled migrants.
But NOT this way. Not at the expense of small farms, small businesses, an OPEN, FREE media, and Worker’s rights.
We have borders for a reason.
Some Libertarians & others will see this as characteristic of NEW WORLD ORDER stuff. Justice & market systems that work ONLY for the corporations.
And domination by Corporate media. It sucks big time!
Richard Woolcott is quite a decent maverick who made it plain he did not support the Iraq invasion…& seems to have no love for Howard & Downer…and I reckon he’d be highly useful in diplomatic forays…but this is a FOOL’S ERRAND.
Rudd will lose supporters by the day w/ ideas like this…particularly w/ the perception being trickily painted by his enemies (I hope) & sometimes allies that his govt. is stalling on other policies…
The support for energy privatisation (I’m in two-minds now), talk of hoons & binge-drinking, attacks on an artist, leaks to the Australian, support for more vroom vrooms…& lots of roads & tollways…& free skies & Walmart-friendly type policies…could all be seen as more than “incremental steps” to a better, more fair-go Australia…seen more in a NEGATIVE light.
We don’t want a TONY PHONEY BLAIR in Australia by STEALTH…by the BACK DOOR…a leader under the RULE of the BLACK HOLE MEDIA.
I hope Rudd is thinking along different pathways & his views have been distorted…per usual.
“It’s quite possible there’s 11 years of latent demand for something like that Geoff, given that the previous PM was considered fairly suspect by our neighbours after some of his mid-1980s musings on immigration levels.”
They’ve had a couple of hundred years of white guys musing on what’s best for them, David and notwithstanding his facility in Mandarin I don’t think that Rudd’s articulation of his “EU of the East” vision is any more likely to garner him immediate regional support. He’s very much a junior player at this point and establishing relationships in the Asia-Pacific region takes time. A fact that Rudd is well aware of.
While I think Nasking is being a little bit over the top, I’m not particularly excited about the idea either.
The point was made in the Fin today that Hawke’s first announcement of APEC in 89 was made off the cuff and seen at the time as a diversion from his other worries.
Watch the State Blighters for what Rudd may mean!?The hairless one at Treasury N.S.W.,sounded off recently like,all good working peoples’ do not have opinions,at all, because in criticising CEO types the way you-they have done,will not convince anyone ,of the ways of Turnbull to use Public Transport such as rail.Verily,he almost went on with,”We the ALP and those who selected me… from other unemployed riff raff, know the problem of the State of New Squashed Snails, is there is too little work being done. So to improve the work ethic we have brought Catholic Youth into the scene to inspire you, plus, and its a positive one, we will increase our borrowings, thus more work will be done, Amen.{So as the hand of Treasury is the role model of responsible hands,this means any worker type brain,adjusted to the friendly non riff raff in Treasury,will not use their hands or minds,so they dont defy and defile the annointed ones.} Saint Costa,of the non casket,in pointing out to unionised persons other than ticketing staff,he was also willing to bet on well known Virgin Astral Travel,thats been around since the late 60s. And in proving that the rail unions were Bolsheviks,by simply implying stuff like “look at their anti-corporate opines”,and with gesture of the hand and muscles around his mouth in weight-lifting mode, made his final point.Which was of the following.”It has come to my attention from time to time,that the non-university educated non office bearers of non-corporate life,are expanding a fallacious series of assumptions,on the prospects of the accountable processes involved in CEO Depression,..a mental health issue.That is they are daring to say,amongst themselves,and anyone else in earshot,the carry on about mental health and Depression in New Squashed Snails,is the breeding fallacies of the Sigmund Fruedianarumasses! In other words they have noted, as clique, of DIY self analysers and history buffs,that Russian Literature of classical type… was written productively by Depressed people.These self same rail employed hoons are telling us,the chosen ones, CEOs that in fact… we are not working.They even dare to mention a American politician with a Penny in his name of amazing capacity to read and convert such readings into the manifestations of productive enterprise,in governance,well before even the old manual typewriter.So, they are asking the lumpen of the small bickies of being paid,what sort of government have we got in N.S.W.!?And I answer,one with me innnit!?”
Geoff Honnor wrote:
He already took the first step to becoming a playa – Kyoto. That was done as much for the domestic audience as it was for the international one. I think an “EU of the east” isn’t such a bad idea if it starts making some inroads into the destructive “protect and subsidise” economic policies of places like Indonesia and might give the Chinese an easier way of un-pegging their currency. It might also result in some more constructive handling of the litany of failing island-states to our north where our belligerence was seen as little more than corporate colonialism on behalf of our resource companies. The EU model offers some real steps toward economic modernisation for backwards euro countries, why can’t the same happen in our region?
Sure, these things look like distractions (and are probably saved up in the grab bag for these kinds of occasions) but alternatively they take time to crystallize in the minds of other countries, so need pre-announcement.
“Nasking is being a little bit over the top”
My calling card & modus operandi Robert. It’s the Cassandra in me that wants to come out. The transvestite w/ an over-bite…;) Gives you an opportunity to locate the Centre. As it gradually shifts.
Thought Bill Shorten was on top of his game tonite. Seemed healthy & sprite. Apt use of descriptive language. Tony’s spin is not as piccolo mondo antico as he thinks. Sounds more Metropolis to me.
I take it Rudd is an enigma?
Well, I think PJK’s comments sound like sour grapes of the “I wish I’d thought of that” variety.
OK, in part this sounds like a bureaucrat’s wet dream, which is bad. But think of the upside – strategic, economic and political stability in an arc from Goa to Tokyo: me likey.
If the initial announcement was for domestic consumption, it’s a strange one – who is he trying to impress? The enormous bloc of Aussie voters who give a s**t about foreign diplomatic relations?
And I doubt the announcement is a result of ADHD, working too hard, not sleeping enough or any of the other BS the meeja have been putting about – Rudd is yet to say anything on the public record without a calculated reason – I’d suggest there’s a deeper, slower chess game going on, and he just staged the opening gambit.
“Well, I think PJK’s comments sound like sour grapes of the “I wish I’d thought of that” variety.”
Huh? Last Labor and PJK were quite enamoured of any form of closer ties with East Asia. Thus APEC. That they didn’t suggest skipping direct to an EU like arrangement is hardly surprising, given it took the EU what, 40-50 years or so, to look like it does today, and in a very different environment. In some ways the ECSC that got the ball rolling on the EU was much less ambitious than APEC – and having a smaller group of founding countries may well have helped it develop faster than it would have otherwise.
Indeed, concrete proposals for something like an East Asian version of the EU that I’m aware of appear to have specifically excluded Australia (ASEAN + 3 is typical). A Japanese paper re EAC notes that “Australia, New Zealand and India will form an outer circle that will provide additional support. This is assumed to be a general consensus, which was reached on the above at the first East Asia Summit that was held in December 2005.” At least we’re one step closer than the US, which is not even mentioned, let alone other APEC members (which, let’s recall, include Chile, Canada and Russia, but not India).
You know what, blow this idea of an APEC version of the EU – think big and go for the whole world. It’s an equally good idea, and it would not be much more unrealistic.
Hmmm…I think I get it now. Rudd is scaffolding. This isn’t a SCARY New World Order…rather, trying to bringing about understanding between cultures.
I imagine he hopes to eventually to use the internet & tourism & energy policy & education & charities & aspects of trade & justice & all those innovations that have HELPED in the EU to build massive bridges…it’s really about ensuring the positives are not sabotaged by certain selfish interests & over-reliance on multi-national corporate predators…as has happened in the EU sometimes (but sometimes they’ve been smart & broken their hold…or resisted)…learning from the mistakes…& using the basic formula to begin to loosen up tensions between Asia-Pacific nations. Like building massive bridges…
Like building a Akashi-Kaikyo Bridge:
The Akashi-Kaikyo Bridge in Japan is currently the longest bridge in the world, being some four kilometres in total length with a centre span of 1990 metres. For several years there have also been detailed plans in existence for a bridge to join Sicily to mainland Italy with a single 3.3 kilometre span. Both of these enormous bridges are designed to withstand Force 8 gales and major earthquakes. They are designed as potent symbols of the might of civilisation, standing against the forces of destructive nature.
http://www.makingthemodernworld.org.uk/learning_modules/maths/02.TU.03/?section=8
So the fool’s errand then transforms into “bridges across the water”. Rendezvous with Rama’s bridge. Providing expertise & easily-accesible relief for wobbly bridges in tragic times. Certainly worthy during these days of climate change stress, disaster capitalism, insecurity due to natural disasters & the ramping up of tensions due to certain influential characters’ desires to maintain profits, dominance & fear.
Overcoming barriers & creating a pool of knowledge & skills to drink from.
Mark:
Does this mean that the effective Opposition – as opposed to the bunch of worn-out 20th-Century Howardite whingers and nay-sayers – is now distilled into the person of one statesman, Mr Paul Keating?
Now that’s a novel concept.
Everyone:
The Japan-China-Taiwan-Hankok-Chosen economic union is up and running …. better get used to it. [Okay, the Chosen part might have a bit of catching-up to do].
Gravatar…changing…into…”Wings of PEACE” dove…a balloon…gas(?)…more useful now…as oil races up mountain towards peak in green(?)back terms, in war times…
many cultures speaking…speakers for the dead…& future(?)…back to the future:
http://www.greenpeace.or.jp/campaign/nuclear/hiroshima/message_en/daylist_html?year=2005&month=7&day=26
Metaphorically speaking…building bridges.
MH: “I am pretty sure China hasn’t come out in support of this? They probably haven’t really noticed it.”
It was cab off the rank at regular PRC foreign ministry press conference question time:
Mandarin
BabelFish: “Now I am willing to answer everybody’s question.
Questioning: Australian Premier Lu Kewen indicated yesterday that hoped the Asian country completes is similar European Union “the Asian and Pacific community”. The Chinese side has what response regarding this?
Answer: I noted the related report. Strengthens the region cooperation is a present era tidal current, we hoped that the Asian and Pacific area the related country can joint effort, to promote the contact, strengthens the political mutual confidence, the deepening mutually beneficial cooperation, the promotion communal development, realizes the mutual benefit altogether to win. So long as is advantageous in realizes this goal proposal, we hold the open mind.” It’s a bit, a lot even, boilerplate, but hey it’s China, they’ve got a scrutability rating to protect.
Did you hear the one about how if we were signatory to a European Union Commission competition type authority, ( a subset of Kev’s proposal?) instead of just our local ACCC, we might have some levarage in China’s gradual control of Aodaliyan iron ore. etc, production, including BHP, bit by bit? As it stands “Section 50 of the Trade Practices Act.. means the ACCC’s remit is limited to the merger’s impact on competition in Australia….BHP Billiton and Rio Tinto sell very little product into the Australian market…. ACCC does not have the remit to protect international customers of either”
Oops, while everyone was dissing Kev, China, with the help of Malaysian chinese, snaps up 40+% of midwest, next…
I think Spiros (comment 7) has the guts of it. Imagine what it was like for Keating waking up every morning for over a decade knowing that Howard was PM and not him. Watching as Howard hauled not only the country but the even ALP into more conservative values. (You do not have to agree with any of this, but it seems to be Keating’s perception)
Imagine what it’s like now, waking up every morning knowing that Howard’s place in Australian political history is orders of magnitude ahead of his own.
And that’s before he sees Krudd, sort of an effete all-work-no-output Howard-(very) -lite, who repudiates what Keating stood for. Then add Keating’s monstrously overblown ego to that whole unlovely stew.
Might this be a recipe for bitterness, bile: and bags of entertainment and fun from here in the cheap seats?
That’s why I am just kicking back and enjoying the show. You have to admit that it is entertaining.
MarkL
Canberra
Saw a report on Tv that Indonesia looked on the idea favourably too.
MarkL in Canberra [28]:
Spiros on 7 did have a point …. but mine’s better.
Keating’s the man. He’s not a resurrected Gough. He’s not a Malcolm converted to decency and vision on the Road to Damascus. Keating would have re-emerged no matter who was Prime Minister. Don’t particularly like him but he is one of Australia’s few ever statesmen …. and who, at the moment, is the de facto Opposition – since the official Opposition components are too busy back-stabbing one another to notice that Australia’s place in the world is changing radically.
S C O? S C O? did anyone mention S C O?
Huh? What are you talking about?
For my 2c the idea is a sound one – PROVIDED – it is strictly limited to democracies.
The Commonwealth seems as valid a model as the EU to this little black duck…and I don’t think anyones suggesting federations are absolutely perfect from every angle…more like that the advantages of a convenient common currency – and passport free travel outweigh the disadvantages – like unfair agricultural subsidies in the EU for example.
Its obviously a bit haywire of the Krudd-9000 series computer to include China – a failure in the AE35 unit? – but this is actually getting to be a bit of a habit with our new Mandarins in Canberra. The stunning potential is clearly there for great strides to be made in federating the region, and yes…the world.
And the Indonesian innovation of a common language may be useful then.
Just as all Indonesian children learn Bahasa today – so too all future generations could all learn… Esperanto? Spanish…shudder…Mandarin.
Jesus H. Christ on the worst Friday afternoon of his life!!!!!!!!!!!!
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If I was in the ALP I’d be going shut-up, SHUT-UP, SHUT-UP – FUCKING SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!! – every time Keating opens his mouth. Jay-sus mate. It’s over! Take up gardening and home brew. Let Kevvie do his Kevvie thing. Lookit Kevvie go! He’s so cute when he goes.
To hear this discussed on Insiders this morning you’d think Rudd was going to go all over Asia introducing some kind of Howardian-One Nation programme that would put Pauline Hanson back on the front pages of the region’s newspapers.At least, that was my impression.
(btw I though Insiders was supposed to have one left wing journo, one centre journo, and one RWDB.Today was mostly a hate Kevin day. Balance, ABC.)
And won’t be until he features in the Greats of the 20th Century Series: Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill, Hitler, Mao, Thatcher, Gandhi, Keating..
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(One of these kids is not like the other one)*.
I reckon Kevvie’s gonna extend the agenda of Keating al la Engagement but in his own way. After all Kevvie knows his Asia a tad better n’ Paul (maybe).
He might think that but it’s too soon to call. Howard’s role was as a reactionary and middle manager. Keating was the architect of 21st century Australia; Howard’s job was to play the bugle whilst the Union Jack was being rolled down for the last time. The trust he put in the Americans over Iraq and David Hicks would be a cautionary tale to any future leader. He put the conservative breaks on a rapidly changing society, fair enough. But he didn’t do anything new. Keating did and the Hawkeating era’s been copied in the UK and the USA.
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* Ghandi. He’s the only one whose ego can fit within the borders of Brazil.
Good to hear a sensible suggestion from Professor Rat on the need for a common language, including a word for Esperanto.
In terms of international acceptance Esperanto is definately on the up.
Eight British MP’s have nominated Esperanto for the Nobel Peace Prize 2008, for example.
You can check detail on http://www.esperanto.net
MH [31]:
Long before last week’s high-level love-in between Taipei and Beijing or the recent one between Tokyo and Beijing, there was a hell of a lot of close co-operation at all levels throughout North Asia. Its only a matter of time before North Korea joins in boots-and-all [sooner rather than later].
So why would these people need Australia for anything at all other than as a quarry, a brothel, a retirement home, a farm, an aircraft carrier, a source of cannon-fodder and a prison? What else can we offer them now? Partnership perhaps? Yeah, right – of course – perhaps these countries are queuing up in the hope of joining the Commonwealth Of Australia too.
Adrien [33]:
As I implied on comment 30, Keating can’t shut up. Anyway, it’s not his job to shut up – he’s filling the policy vacuum left the by Howardite mutual-pugilists pretending to be an Opposition. Someone has to do it.
Graham Bell wrote:
You forgot school.
The post-grad agriculture school at the UNE is absolutely chockas with asian and east asian government funded students, coming here to learn about animal genetics, pasture management, livestock disease control and a hundred other things aimed at lifting their home food production productivity. You just can’t underestimate the impact we can have in a region that regularly threatens to starve to death.
Besides which, being a quarry isn’t so bad.
David Rubie 38]
I deliberately omitted “school” and “tourist destination”. Both tourists and full-fee-paying students seem to be voting with their feet – or wallets – lately. And “Influence” is definitely in the past tense or soon-to-be past tense..
Yes. Quarry is fine – but we seem to have given up owning a lot of that already.
That doesn’t change my curiosity about what it is we can actually offer the countries of the hemisphere for getting into a brand-new shiny club. Hey, how about free uranium if they let us play in their backyard?
Yep that’s why people all over the world are learning Esperanto. There are schools that teach it in every city…
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Oh wait.
GB: “what it is we can actually offer the countries of the hemisphere…”
Dunno about the rest, but for China, having a close look at their name for us gives a bit of a clue: Aodaliya
澳 (ao4): inlet, bay, dock, bank, waterfront, girtbysea
大 (da4): big / huge / large / major / great / wide / deep
利 (li4): advantage / benefit / profit / sharp / opportunity
亞 (ya4): second, auxiliary
So: A huge opportunity for waterfront weekenders.
It’s a bit like the bargaining scene from Superman II:
- General Zod: “What do you want?”
- Lex Luthor: “Well General, the world is a big place. Thank goodness that my needs are very small. As you may know, I have an affinity for beach front property … Australia!”
There’s an Asian NATO coming together in the form of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization – a political, military, and economic (specifically energy) partnership between Russia, China and the central Asian states, with Iran looking on. I expect that as energy prices rise, ASEAN and Korea will be drawn into its orbit. America is doing all it can to prevent Indian integration with the rest of Asia, so its a bit of a wildcard, but if India got on board with this sort of thing, you’d have a real colossus on your hands. Now if Australia wanted to get on board this sort of thing (I’m sure our commodities would be most welcome), it would mark a real break with history, because the SCO is a counterweight to American hegemony, while Australia is little more than a American province when it comes to international relations.
The “SCO” is a forum of autocratic dictatorships with little to no regard for human rights, who would happily torture their own people, invade innocent nations & generally carry on in a manner which would make the current incursion into Iraq downright benevolent, & the US army tricks in abu ghraib prison appear likewise. (Both of these events seem to get commenters on this site more steamed up than “long hairdys” did my grandfather.)
American hegemony may have some drawbacks, but the prospect of chinese/russian/muslim hegemony ought to make the bowels of readers on this site evacuate.
Obviously these countries are not democratic. but unlike America they only commit gross violations of human rights within their own internationally recognized borders. what “innocent nations” have any of them invaded recently?
Danny [41}:
Hao jile! [Bewdy sport!] 
L=O=L I like it.
Yeti [42]:
Funny you should mention that …. though I can’t see the ADF being very happy at all about going on operations against the US Marine Corps on either the Iranian Front or the Georgia/Gruzi Front
Steve At The Pub [43]:
Yeah. That seems to be as workable a definition as any other. Alas, out in the big bad ugly world, international relations is as dirty and as brutal and as unfair as any other game …. it has always been thus.