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	<title>Comments on: Trouble at the top of the world</title>
	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-479298</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-479298</guid>
		<description>By spending time writing in the past little while I missed this little item. Some scientists have run their models &lt;a href="http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2008/permafrost.jsp" rel="nofollow"&gt;to see what would happen to the surrounding land areas&lt;/a&gt; when there is a significant loss of sea ice.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The team found that during episodes of rapid sea-ice loss, the rate of Arctic land warming is 3.5 times greater than the average 21st century warming rates predicted in global climate models. While this warming is largest over the ocean, the simulations suggest that it can penetrate as far as 900 miles inland. The simulations also indicate that the warming acceleration during such events is especially pronounced in autumn. The decade during which a rapid sea-ice loss event occurs could see autumn temperatures warm by as much as 9 degrees F (5 degrees C) along the Arctic coasts of Russia, Alaska, and Canada.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Lawrence and his colleagues then used the model to study the influence of accelerated warming on permafrost and found that in areas where permafrost is already at risk, such as central Alaska, a period of abrupt sea-ice loss could lead to rapid soil thaw. This situation, when summer thaw extends more deeply than the next winter’s freeze, can lead to a talik, which is a layer of permanently unfrozen soil sandwiched between the seasonally frozen layer above and the perennially frozen layer below. A talik allows heat to build more quickly in the soil, hastening the long-term thaw of permafrost.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They say that "Arctic soils are believed to hold 30 percent or more of all the carbon stored in soils worldwide."

OK, it's only working the models, so let's hope they made a big mistake!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By spending time writing in the past little while I missed this little item. Some scientists have run their models <a href="http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2008/permafrost.jsp" rel="nofollow">to see what would happen to the surrounding land areas</a> when there is a significant loss of sea ice.</p>
<blockquote><p>The team found that during episodes of rapid sea-ice loss, the rate of Arctic land warming is 3.5 times greater than the average 21st century warming rates predicted in global climate models. While this warming is largest over the ocean, the simulations suggest that it can penetrate as far as 900 miles inland. The simulations also indicate that the warming acceleration during such events is especially pronounced in autumn. The decade during which a rapid sea-ice loss event occurs could see autumn temperatures warm by as much as 9 degrees F (5 degrees C) along the Arctic coasts of Russia, Alaska, and Canada.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Lawrence and his colleagues then used the model to study the influence of accelerated warming on permafrost and found that in areas where permafrost is already at risk, such as central Alaska, a period of abrupt sea-ice loss could lead to rapid soil thaw. This situation, when summer thaw extends more deeply than the next winter’s freeze, can lead to a talik, which is a layer of permanently unfrozen soil sandwiched between the seasonally frozen layer above and the perennially frozen layer below. A talik allows heat to build more quickly in the soil, hastening the long-term thaw of permafrost.</p></blockquote>
<p>They say that &#8220;Arctic soils are believed to hold 30 percent or more of all the carbon stored in soils worldwide.&#8221;</p>
<p>OK, it&#8217;s only working the models, so let&#8217;s hope they made a big mistake!</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-479054</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-479054</guid>
		<description>Sounds as though it has been bugging me, which isn't the case, but on further reflection I think the graph at the top of the post is definitely not "somewhat sensationalistic". What happened to the ice was sensational, as demonstrated by the reaction of scientists. What the graph showed was the normal scientific criterion used to monitor the decline of the ice coverage.

Anyway the next post in the series on &lt;a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/19/scientific-caution-or-climate-change-politics-the-ipcc-and-sea-level-change/" rel="nofollow"&gt;what the IPCC did is now up.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds as though it has been bugging me, which isn&#8217;t the case, but on further reflection I think the graph at the top of the post is definitely not &#8220;somewhat sensationalistic&#8221;. What happened to the ice was sensational, as demonstrated by the reaction of scientists. What the graph showed was the normal scientific criterion used to monitor the decline of the ice coverage.</p>
<p>Anyway the next post in the series on <a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/19/scientific-caution-or-climate-change-politics-the-ipcc-and-sea-level-change/" rel="nofollow">what the IPCC did is now up.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-479006</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-479006</guid>
		<description>To be honest, Huggybunny, I haven't. If by the "encroachment of free water vapour into the polar regions" you mean that it's raining further north these days, I've heard of two negative effects. Flannery said that there were increasing incidences of female polar bears being killed in the ice dens they make to give birth to and nurture their young by unexpected rain caving in the roof.

Of broader implication I recall Hansen in 2003 pointing out that rain moving further north is one way that heat is transported from warmer oceans to northern lands. Increased rain at higher latitudes is an effect already observed.

Hansen also emphasises the growth of forests on tundras further north as a long term feedback, along with the loss of albedo through the loss of ice. He hasn't explained it in detail that I've seen, but I think the idea is that the darker forests absorb more solar radiation than the open tundras and that this effect is greater than any draw-down of carbon from the extra growth. He regards it as very significant longer term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be honest, Huggybunny, I haven&#8217;t. If by the &#8220;encroachment of free water vapour into the polar regions&#8221; you mean that it&#8217;s raining further north these days, I&#8217;ve heard of two negative effects. Flannery said that there were increasing incidences of female polar bears being killed in the ice dens they make to give birth to and nurture their young by unexpected rain caving in the roof.</p>
<p>Of broader implication I recall Hansen in 2003 pointing out that rain moving further north is one way that heat is transported from warmer oceans to northern lands. Increased rain at higher latitudes is an effect already observed.</p>
<p>Hansen also emphasises the growth of forests on tundras further north as a long term feedback, along with the loss of albedo through the loss of ice. He hasn&#8217;t explained it in detail that I&#8217;ve seen, but I think the idea is that the darker forests absorb more solar radiation than the open tundras and that this effect is greater than any draw-down of carbon from the extra growth. He regards it as very significant longer term.</p>
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		<title>By: Huggybunny</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478937</link>
		<dc:creator>Huggybunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478937</guid>
		<description>Excellent Brian. Have you looked at the effect of the northern boreal forests and the relationship between rising temperatures and the encroachment of free water vapour into the polar regions? I suspect that avery large and unsuspected positive feedback is on the agenda.
Respect.
Huggy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent Brian. Have you looked at the effect of the northern boreal forests and the relationship between rising temperatures and the encroachment of free water vapour into the polar regions? I suspect that avery large and unsuspected positive feedback is on the agenda.<br />
Respect.<br />
Huggy</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478760</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478760</guid>
		<description>Make fertilizer out of them. Why not! It would be good to be doing something useful when you're dead!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make fertilizer out of them. Why not! It would be good to be doing something useful when you&#8217;re dead!</p>
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		<title>By: sublimecowgirl</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478755</link>
		<dc:creator>sublimecowgirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478755</guid>
		<description>Here, look, i can tie this back to the topic at hand.

Soylent Green is people. &lt;code&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green&lt;code&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here, look, i can tie this back to the topic at hand.</p>
<p>Soylent Green is people. <code><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green</a></code><code></code></p>
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		<title>By: sublimecowgirl</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478750</link>
		<dc:creator>sublimecowgirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478750</guid>
		<description>Cool.  Its a speculators dream then- can you invest in real estate futures?

You should have seen the look on his face when i suggested the greatest untapped resource on the planet is dead people.  You could eat 'em, make fertilizer, burn 'em for fuel...i mean if you are going to recycle, lets go the whole hog :)

(my apologies to any dead people reading this post).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cool.  Its a speculators dream then- can you invest in real estate futures?</p>
<p>You should have seen the look on his face when i suggested the greatest untapped resource on the planet is dead people.  You could eat &#8216;em, make fertilizer, burn &#8216;em for fuel&#8230;i mean if you are going to recycle, lets go the whole hog <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
(my apologies to any dead people reading this post).</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478742</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478742</guid>
		<description>sc it's obviously a case of the difference between men's and women's logic.

BTW my son, the one who lives here, has a bike computer, which he calibrated against Mt Coot-tha. It's probably a bit rough but it tells him what the elevation is. Our place is 80m above sea level, which might give us a nice beach-side place in a thousand years or so. But 90% plus of Brisbane would be under water if his computer's right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sc it&#8217;s obviously a case of the difference between men&#8217;s and women&#8217;s logic.</p>
<p>BTW my son, the one who lives here, has a bike computer, which he calibrated against Mt Coot-tha. It&#8217;s probably a bit rough but it tells him what the elevation is. Our place is 80m above sea level, which might give us a nice beach-side place in a thousand years or so. But 90% plus of Brisbane would be under water if his computer&#8217;s right.</p>
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		<title>By: sublimecowgirl</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478741</link>
		<dc:creator>sublimecowgirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478741</guid>
		<description>My husband, a devoted greenie, was gently explaining to me that the bin was filling up much quicker, and needed to be taken out more often as i wasn't separating the recycling properly, and not flattening out packages and containers before throwing them in.

I told him i was doing this on purpose to increase land fill, so we have something to stand on when sea levels rise.

He just shook his head and walked away.

True story.  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My husband, a devoted greenie, was gently explaining to me that the bin was filling up much quicker, and needed to be taken out more often as i wasn&#8217;t separating the recycling properly, and not flattening out packages and containers before throwing them in.</p>
<p>I told him i was doing this on purpose to increase land fill, so we have something to stand on when sea levels rise.</p>
<p>He just shook his head and walked away.</p>
<p>True story.  <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478738</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478738</guid>
		<description>I got a bit excited seeing a link at &lt;i&gt;Crikey&lt;/i&gt; to something about disappearing ice caps, and ended up here!

Nick, this post was originally part of a larger one on sea level rise, which is where I'm headed, so I didn't look at the other implications of Arctic melting. You are right, plenty of people, nations and corporations are salivating over the opportunity to extract hydrocarbons from the area. Remember the Russians planting their flag on the sea floor at the north pole?

Peter, apart from methane Tim Flannery reckons the warming of the Arctic might change what he calls "zonation" more rapidly:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The second thing is of course that the entire climatic zonation of the northern hemisphere is held in place by the thermal gradient between the pole and the equator. That's why we have deserts where we have them in the northern hemisphere, and we have forested areas where we have them and tundra where we have them. And when I look at the melting tundra, the advance of the forest northwards...Greece and its forest fires that look like that area's becoming hostile to the sort of vegetation. I think we're seeing the early stages of a shift in that zonation. Once the ice melts away entirely and we get a rapid warming of the Arctic Ocean, that's when you'll see those sorts of changes potentially start shifting much more quickly.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got a bit excited seeing a link at <i>Crikey</i> to something about disappearing ice caps, and ended up here!</p>
<p>Nick, this post was originally part of a larger one on sea level rise, which is where I&#8217;m headed, so I didn&#8217;t look at the other implications of Arctic melting. You are right, plenty of people, nations and corporations are salivating over the opportunity to extract hydrocarbons from the area. Remember the Russians planting their flag on the sea floor at the north pole?</p>
<p>Peter, apart from methane Tim Flannery reckons the warming of the Arctic might change what he calls &#8220;zonation&#8221; more rapidly:</p>
<blockquote><p>The second thing is of course that the entire climatic zonation of the northern hemisphere is held in place by the thermal gradient between the pole and the equator. That&#8217;s why we have deserts where we have them in the northern hemisphere, and we have forested areas where we have them and tundra where we have them. And when I look at the melting tundra, the advance of the forest northwards&#8230;Greece and its forest fires that look like that area&#8217;s becoming hostile to the sort of vegetation. I think we&#8217;re seeing the early stages of a shift in that zonation. Once the ice melts away entirely and we get a rapid warming of the Arctic Ocean, that&#8217;s when you&#8217;ll see those sorts of changes potentially start shifting much more quickly.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: nasking</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478659</link>
		<dc:creator>nasking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478659</guid>
		<description>impenetrable...doh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>impenetrable&#8230;doh!</p>
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		<title>By: nasking</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478658</link>
		<dc:creator>nasking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:51:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478658</guid>
		<description>Good stuff Brian. 

Excellent point Nick. Cheney seems very excited about future prospects for Wyoming due to global warming...so I imagine Bush &#38; the oil men are thinking same about the ability to gain access to previously unpenetrable &#38;/or hostile areas. North-West passage and all that: 

http://www.backpacker.com/blogs/199

Not surprising the Canadian PM is establishing further military &#38; security links w/ Inuit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good stuff Brian. </p>
<p>Excellent point Nick. Cheney seems very excited about future prospects for Wyoming due to global warming&#8230;so I imagine Bush &amp; the oil men are thinking same about the ability to gain access to previously unpenetrable &amp;/or hostile areas. North-West passage and all that: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.backpacker.com/blogs/199" rel="nofollow">http://www.backpacker.com/blogs/199</a></p>
<p>Not surprising the Canadian PM is establishing further military &amp; security links w/ Inuit.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478613</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478613</guid>
		<description>BilB @ 5, don't forget the oil companies can also very plainly see it...they're making a killing in the Artic Circle as previously un-drillable regions open up...potential war zone in 5-10 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BilB @ 5, don&#8217;t forget the oil companies can also very plainly see it&#8230;they&#8217;re making a killing in the Artic Circle as previously un-drillable regions open up&#8230;potential war zone in 5-10 years.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478568</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478568</guid>
		<description>Brian, I think your wrap-up will be wasted on Marn unless you either send it to him as an audio-visual file, or ask one of the others to read it to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, I think your wrap-up will be wasted on Marn unless you either send it to him as an audio-visual file, or ask one of the others to read it to him.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478566</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478566</guid>
		<description>Thanks very much for posting this, it's very useful. Looking forward to more posts in the series.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks very much for posting this, it&#8217;s very useful. Looking forward to more posts in the series.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Wood</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478554</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478554</guid>
		<description>Not only will the loss of albedo increase the warming of Greenland and the likelihood of Greenland melting, it will also increase the warming of permafrost leading to large quantities of methane being released, enhancing global warming.

According to &lt;i&gt;Lawrence, D. M., A. G. Slater, R. A. Tomas, M. M. Holland, and C. Deser&lt;/i&gt; (2008), &lt;a href="http://www.agu.org/journals/gl/gl0811/2008GL033985/" rel="nofollow"&gt; Accelerated Arctic land warming and permafrost degradation during rapid sea ice loss&lt;/a&gt;, Geophys. Res. Lett., 35, L11506, doi:10.1029/2008GL033985:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Coupled climate models and recent observational evidence suggest that Arctic sea ice may undergo abrupt periods of loss during the next fifty years. Here, we evaluate how rapid sea ice loss affects terrestrial Arctic climate and ground thermal state in the Community Climate System Model. We find that simulated western Arctic land warming trends during rapid sea ice loss are 3.5 times greater than secular 21st century climate-change trends. The accelerated warming signal penetrates up to 1500 km inland and is apparent throughout most of the year, peaking in autumn. Idealized experiments using the Community Land Model, with improved permafrost dynamics, indicate that an accelerated warming period substantially increases ground heat accumulation. Enhanced heat accumulation leads to rapid degradation of warm permafrost and may increase the vulnerability of colder permafrost to degradation under continued warming. Taken together, these results imply a link between rapid sea ice loss and permafrost health.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not only will the loss of albedo increase the warming of Greenland and the likelihood of Greenland melting, it will also increase the warming of permafrost leading to large quantities of methane being released, enhancing global warming.</p>
<p>According to <i>Lawrence, D. M., A. G. Slater, R. A. Tomas, M. M. Holland, and C. Deser</i> (2008), <a href="http://www.agu.org/journals/gl/gl0811/2008GL033985/" rel="nofollow"> Accelerated Arctic land warming and permafrost degradation during rapid sea ice loss</a>, Geophys. Res. Lett., 35, L11506, doi:10.1029/2008GL033985:</p>
<blockquote><p>Coupled climate models and recent observational evidence suggest that Arctic sea ice may undergo abrupt periods of loss during the next fifty years. Here, we evaluate how rapid sea ice loss affects terrestrial Arctic climate and ground thermal state in the Community Climate System Model. We find that simulated western Arctic land warming trends during rapid sea ice loss are 3.5 times greater than secular 21st century climate-change trends. The accelerated warming signal penetrates up to 1500 km inland and is apparent throughout most of the year, peaking in autumn. Idealized experiments using the Community Land Model, with improved permafrost dynamics, indicate that an accelerated warming period substantially increases ground heat accumulation. Enhanced heat accumulation leads to rapid degradation of warm permafrost and may increase the vulnerability of colder permafrost to degradation under continued warming. Taken together, these results imply a link between rapid sea ice loss and permafrost health.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: dj</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478551</link>
		<dc:creator>dj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478551</guid>
		<description>And there will be no excuses like 'but we didn't know!' because there has been twenty  years or more to do something about it.

Never mind 'our children', some of us here are young enough to have known about the problem for quite a while, tried to increase awareness about it and make a personal contribution to reducing the problem and are still going to have to live through the majority of our lives (should we live to life expectancy as currently is) in a climate created by wilful greed and stupidity. 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And there will be no excuses like &#8216;but we didn&#8217;t know!&#8217; because there has been twenty  years or more to do something about it.</p>
<p>Never mind &#8216;our children&#8217;, some of us here are young enough to have known about the problem for quite a while, tried to increase awareness about it and make a personal contribution to reducing the problem and are still going to have to live through the majority of our lives (should we live to life expectancy as currently is) in a climate created by wilful greed and stupidity. </p>
<p>Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478543</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478543</guid>
		<description>We are so, so screwed.  Our children will spit on the graves of those industry-funded denialists and gutless politicians who got us to this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are so, so screwed.  Our children will spit on the graves of those industry-funded denialists and gutless politicians who got us to this point.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478533</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478533</guid>
		<description>rf, but if you read my comment at 11 you'd have to agree that Lutz's linked graph masks some very significant problems. I don't make these graphs, I just use what's available.

Paul, thanks for the link.

I have in mind a wrap up post at the end, which could be sent off to policy makers - Peter, Penny, Marn, Ross Garnaut etc - to pick up BilB's point.

Meanwhile if anyone in commenter-land wants to draw what's posted on this blog to the attention of policy makers, I can't imagine it would do any harm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rf, but if you read my comment at 11 you&#8217;d have to agree that Lutz&#8217;s linked graph masks some very significant problems. I don&#8217;t make these graphs, I just use what&#8217;s available.</p>
<p>Paul, thanks for the link.</p>
<p>I have in mind a wrap up post at the end, which could be sent off to policy makers - Peter, Penny, Marn, Ross Garnaut etc - to pick up BilB&#8217;s point.</p>
<p>Meanwhile if anyone in commenter-land wants to draw what&#8217;s posted on this blog to the attention of policy makers, I can&#8217;t imagine it would do any harm.</p>
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		<title>By: rf</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478526</link>
		<dc:creator>rf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/16/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-world/#comment-478526</guid>
		<description>What Lutz said.
&lt;blockquote&gt;by varying the relative length of the axes, chopping off the bottom so that the trend appears to be approaching zero etc&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Please don't resort to the techniques beloved of pharmaceutical companies - the drop in the sea ice minimum is sensational enough and doesn't need this visually deceiving treatment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Lutz said.</p>
<blockquote><p>by varying the relative length of the axes, chopping off the bottom so that the trend appears to be approaching zero etc</p></blockquote>
<p>Please don&#8217;t resort to the techniques beloved of pharmaceutical companies - the drop in the sea ice minimum is sensational enough and doesn&#8217;t need this visually deceiving treatment.</p>
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